[Deck] Peacemaker

[Moczoc]

Hi, here is a deck that I've been developping since a long time. I got the idea when I played in a tournament and my creatures got sworded again and again. I thought about decks with only critters with prot white but they couldn't beat Goyf. The battling creatures remembered me of my old casual days where everyone feared Peacekeeper. One of my friends played it in a burn deck.

In these days, controldecks, aggrodecks and half of the combodeck still try to win with creatures. So I decided to make a competetive deck that works totally against creatures. I don't want to be attacked and I won't play creatures to make their damn swords useless.


First Version:

4 Millstone
4 Grindstone
2 Whetwheel
2 Sterling Grove
4 Condemn
3 Moat
1 The Abyss
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Thoughtseize
4 Duress
4 Arboria
1 Wrath of God
1 Damnation

Lands
4 Windswept Heath
4 Savannah
4 Temple Garden
4 Scrubland
4 Bayou
1 Forest
1 Plains

The first version tried to control the game with Moat or The Abyss and Mill him to death.
But in the end it lost to Exalted Angels, Tombstalkers and fast Aggro.



Second Version:

Spells
4 Thoughtseize
4 Duress
4 Arboria
2 Damnation
4 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Meteor Storm
4 Terminate
4 Innocent Blood
4 Stormbind

Lands
4 Bayou
3 Taiga
3 Badlands
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Mountain
1 Forest
2 Keldon Megaliths

Arboria came, the Storm-enchantments came and white was gone. I still like this list. Arboria is a very nice card, but I lost many games to the fact that I have to wait a turn for the "peace" because Arboria counts itself as a played spell too. The manabase was weak, I had to mulligan often and I feared Wasteland. The Storm enchantments were a house against Landstill :)



Third Version (my current decklist):

Spells
4 Innocent Blood
4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 The Rack
4 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Cursed Scroll
4 Bottomless Pit
3 Noetic Scales
2 Necrogen Mists
2 Snuff Out
2 Damnation
2 Thoughtseize

Lands
17 Swamp
2 Urborg
3 Blinkmoth Nexus


This is the best list, although I played it a lot, it is only a few days old because I just dropped red. (I replaced Keldon Megaliths and a B/R base with Blinkmoth Nexus and Swamps; I replaced (Rise)/Fall with Thoughtseize). The "comes into play tapped"-Lands and the vulnerable manabase weren't worth it.

I've only played the current list against random guys with random decks on MWS:
Psychatog 1-0
Goblins 1-1
ThreshW 2-1
ThreshR 1-0
Iggy Pop 3-0
Midrange Green 2-0
R/G Beatz 4-0
Affinity 1-0
Deadguy Ale 2-0
Reanimator 1-0
The Rock 0-3
Eva Green 2-1

Some used their SB, I didn't because I don't have one yet.
The opponents made many mistakes, I was lucky and their builds weren't perfect but the 20-6 result made me post my deck here.

Some card choices explained:

Rack and Scroll: The best non-creature-winconditions under 3 mana

More Duress than Thoughtseize: I most games it is better to save the 2 life because I don't fear creatues anyway

Noetic Scales: Bridges 5,,6,7

Bottomless Pit and Necrogen Mists: Constant discard for both players, the engine for Bridge and Scales.

Only 2 Damnations: Makes sure that you can clear the board twice in the game, I can't play more because I have to be able to empty my hand fast. That's the reason too why I only play 5 spells with cmc >3

Blinkmoth Nexus: I know I said that I won't play creatures. But these I can activate when my opp has an empty hand to make sure that they won't fly into creature removal

What I fear:

Deed, deed, deed: Pernicious Deed destroys everything you played. It is very hard, but possible because the often have to sac their stuff too, to recover from a deed. I always try to get them out of their hands with Duress/Thoughtseize. Pithing Needle is propably a good card for the SB.

Burn: I don't know how I could not lose against burn. Maybe there's a good SB card against red damage spells.

Swamp Mosquito and Guiltfeeder: No real problem because no one plays these cards ;)


-Moczoc

[mujadaddy]

Maybe there's a good SB card against red damage spells.

-MoczocIn white? Yeh, maybe. :cool:

[raharu]

Why not just play Rabid Wombat/ Rifter? It does the same thing this tries to do, but better and it runs fewer colors, more effective answers, and has tech for combo and other non-creature decks.

[rleader]

Why not just play Rabid Wombat/ Rifter? It does the same thing this tries to do, but better and it runs fewer colors, more effective answers, and has tech for combo and other non-creature decks.

I guess you only looked at the first list because literate people would see that the end result was monoblack. Not that I think it's a great idea to post ideas you've already abandoned in the header of a thread -- save the history for the tail end of the post.

It's kind of like budget Pox without the Pox. Nice in that it can run higher CC spells. Not so nice in that it takes longer to really disrupt the opponent.

[Roman Candle]

I think Chainer's Edict/Diabolic Edict are probably better than Snuff Out here... I'm a big fan of Snuff Out in tempo-oriented lists, but it seems like more often than not you'd rather pay 2 mana than 4 or three life. While usually I'd suggest Diabolic, Chainer's might be pretty interesting when you're discarding so much yourself.

And although I know it would probably suck more often than not in a Wasteland-oriented meta, Howltooth Hollows would be pretty fun to play with.

[raharu]

I guess you only looked at the first list because literate people would see that the end result was monoblack. Not that I think it's a great idea to post ideas you've already abandoned in the header of a thread -- save the history for the tail end of the post.

It's kind of like budget Pox without the Pox. Nice in that it can run higher CC spells. Not so nice in that it takes longer to really disrupt the opponent.
i.e. it's slow and dies to most of the agro in the format while having a lackluster combo and control? Yeah, that kinda hurts. The reason that lower curves are favored is because, wait for it... Speed. Speed to stop agro, speed to not get romped on my combo, speed to not get outresourced by control. Also, the reason that I sugested white control decks is because they do what this deck does (albeit in a horrbly slow manner) better than you do. There's no reason to run a control deck mostly dedicated to agro without Humility. It does what you're trying to do with a 8 mana, 2 card softlock in a single 4 mana card, and Humility stops utility creatures such as Dark Confidant, Enchantresses, and Mother of Runes, etc.

Literate people would understand why I sugested the deck instead of responding to something that was never said and inteligent people would not use logical falicies to defend their pet decks.

EDIT: There's no reason to play Snuff Out over Edict if you cite life loss as the reason that you run a 4/2 split of Duress/ Thoughtseize respectively.

[rleader]

Howltooth Hollows would be pretty fun to play with.

But then you'd have to find something to put into the deck to cast with it. Any ideas? It pretty much can't be a creature. Possesed Portal?

Scalding Tongs is cross between rack and scroll, might be an additional source of damage.

[Roman Candle]

i.e. it's slow and dies to most of the agro in the format while having a lackluster combo and control? Yeah, that kinda hurts. The reason that lower curves are favored is because, wait for it... Speed. Speed to stop agro, speed to not get romped on my combo, speed to not get outresourced by control. Also, the reason that I sugested white control decks is because they do what this deck does (albeit in a horrbly slow manner) better than you do. There's no reason to run a control deck mostly dedicated to agro without Humility. It does what you're trying to do with a 8 mana, 2 card softlock in a single 4 mana card, and Humility stops utility creatures such as Dark Confidant, Enchantresses, and Mother of Runes, etc.

Literate people would understand why I sugested the deck instead of responding to something that was never said and inteligent people would not use logical falicies to defend their pet decks.

EDIT: There's no reason to play Snuff Out over Edict if you cite life loss as the reason that you run a 4/2 split of Duress/ Thoughtseize respectively.

I really think that there should be a new rule on The N&D forums: you shouldn't be allowed to suggest a different deck to anyone who posts here. Because I could type, "play Threshold" for every thread in the forum, and we wouldn't need the damn thing in the first place.

That being said, I have a lot of experience with MWC, and this deck has the potential to have a much stronger combo matchup, with Duress/Thoughtseize, not to mention Bottomless Pit. I don't know about literate people, but intelligent people would realize that a discard suite>Wrath/StP/Humility/etc. in the combo matchup.

[Galroth]

I like the deck alot. It's fairly unique and deals well a wide variety of decks.

Congratulations on the 20-6 record. Even if it is MWS and not tourney results, that's still nothing to scoff at. If you would, let us know about your next 25-50 games. It would be great to see more results and performance against a wide variety of decks.

I am worried about the speed of the deck as well. Your kill condictions aren't the quickest, though they are fairy inevitable. I also worry about land count. You're running a high curve, which isn't necesarrly bad, but only 22 lands. I'd feel more comfortable at 23-24 with such a high curve. I understand space could be an issue though. You weakest slot IMO is the 3rd Noetic Scale.

I also question the use of Snuff Out over an Edict effect. Understandably you'll want to be spending all of your mana every turn on some other spell, but if the loss of life isn't an issue, then why not run 4x Thoughtseize and 2x Duress instead of vice versa. Thoughtseize is near strictly the superior card if life is not an issue.

Again - it looks good. The attempts leading up to it sucked :) but I like the final build.

[raharu]

I really think that there should be a new rule on The N&D forums: you shouldn't be allowed to suggest a different deck to anyone who posts here. Because I could type, "play Threshold" for every thread in the forum, and we wouldn't need the damn thing in the first place.

That being said, I have a lot of experience with MWC, and this deck has the potential to have a much stronger combo matchup, with Duress/Thoughtseize, not to mention Bottomless Pit. I don't know about literate people, but intelligent people would realize that a discard suite>Wrath/StP/Humility/etc. in the combo matchup.

Chant, Rule of Law, and Abeyance all buffer the combo match, as well as Runed Halo . I'll agree that perhaps it's counterproductive to sugest a different deck, but it's roughly the same concept executed more efecently.

[Cait_Sith]

I am looking at the last list and it makes me think of a bad MBC with some Ensnaring Bridge tech.

The idea of locking out creatures is interesting, but the deck either needs more cheap removal or some speedy tech.

You definitely want 4 Thoughtseize and probably some Chainer's Edict as well.

[Galroth]

I like to give my opinion readily: so I'll just counter what Cait Sith said.

It looks like a good MBC build (for once) that might actually have game against the field.

Thoughtseize as a 4x I also like. You can keep the Chainers though, I think your removal package is fine as it stands.

--
... so why does it look bad again?

[Pulp_Fiction]

I played a kinda-similar Mono B Rack deck when I first got into Legacy and if you are missing kill sources you should run Skullcage, which is a Artifact that costs 4 and does 2 damage to your opponent unless they have exactly 3 or 4 cards in hand. The deck went through many incarnations and in the end the creature removal really isn't that necessary. 2x Damnation and some search cards (to find EBridge are all that is really necessary). IMOP you should cut a little of the creature removal and put in some combination of these cards:

Infernal Tutor or Tainted Pact
Dark Ritual
Grafted Skullcal or Bottled Cloister (Skullcap is better as it has better synergy with Scroll)
Bog Down (HOT discard spell especially mid-late game)

As far as the sideboard goes all you have to do to beat burn is dedicate 5-6 slots to it then it actually becomes almost unwinnable for burn. The cards that beat burn are Sun Droplet and Skullmead Caludron. A great all-around sideboard for a deck like this is something like:

3x Oblivion Stone/Disk
3x Pithing Needle
3x Sun Droplet
2x Skullmead Cauldron
4x Leyline of the Void/Planar Void

[Roman Candle]

Chant, Rule of Law, and Abeyance all buffer the combo match, as well as Runed Halo . I'll agree that perhaps it's counterproductive to sugest a different deck, but it's roughly the same concept executed more efecently.

Rule of Law/Chant/Abeyance/Runed Halo suck in the combo matchup. There's no way to put pressure on the combo player, so they have all the time in the world to rebuild/draw solutions.

This deck at least has Nexus and Rack to put combo on somewhat of a clock, and Necrogen Mists/Bottomless Pit to keep them from rebuilding. Not that this deck is necessarily a better choice than MWC, but it at least has merit.

[Moczoc]

There's no reason to run a control deck mostly dedicated to agro without Humility. It does what you're trying to do with a 8 mana, 2 card softlock in a single 4 mana card
(...)
EDIT: There's no reason to play Snuff Out over Edict if you cite life loss as the reason that you run a 4/2 split of Duress/ Thoughtseize respectively.

For 3 mana Ensnaring Bridge even stops 1/1 from attacking you. And if you run discard anyway Noetic Scales (4 mana) sends all creatures back to their owners hands, each turn.

I've testet Diabolic Edict some time. It doesn't matter much if you play it or play Snuff Out. But what I like about Snuff Out is that it protects you at the beginning for 0 mana and some life and later you can just spend 4 mana. And ... you can choose the target (which I.Blood also can't do)




Scalding Tongs is cross between rack and scroll, might be an additional source of damage.

2 damage would be okay, but 1 is too slow



Your kill condictions aren't the quickest, though they are fairy inevitable. I also worry about land count. You're running a high curve, which isn't necesarrly bad, but only 22 lands. I'd feel more comfortable at 23-24 with such a high curve.

If you know know better winconditions <3cmc and non-creature I'll play them.
22 lands had been okay so far, I often only need 3 in play.




Infernal Tutor or Tainted Pact
Dark Ritual
Grafted Skullcal or Bottled Cloister (Skullcap is better as it has better synergy with Scroll)
Bog Down (HOT discard spell especially mid-late game)

sideboard

3x Oblivion Stone/Disk
3x Pithing Needle
3x Sun Droplet
2x Skullmead Cauldron
4x Leyline of the Void/Planar Void


I played Infernal, but it was too slow
For Ritual, the deck isn't offensiv enough
I'm afraid of the artifacts costing too much mana
Bog Down is nice, but worse than Fall(/Rise) the little brother of hymn

I like the sideboard, thank you. I think I will adapt big parts of it.

[Galroth]

If you know know better winconditions <3cmc and non-creature I'll play them.

Paupers' Cage is 3cc for 2 a turn. It's not on the level of The Rack or Cursed Scroll, but it is an option. It might be better than Blinkmoth Nexus, though then you'll need to up your land count.

Grafted Skullcap seems interesting, but the cost is fairly prohibitive. Your original list is pretty optimal. I just want to see more results! My quick cursory assessment is this deck is strong. But I'll admit bias on behalf of black discard strategies.

[Fons]

I was really hoping that this was a deck built around peace talks. :laugh:

[Tical2000]

Chant, Rule of Law, and Abeyance all buffer the combo match, as well as Runed Halo . I'll agree that perhaps it's counterproductive to sugest a different deck, but it's roughly the same concept executed more efecently.

How can you compare discard to Rifter? Both archetypes have totally different matchups, they're two very different decks that do two very different things. Discard has good control and combo matchups while Rifter excels versus aggro. There's no comparison between the two.

EDIT: Rifter is just bad BTW.

[Curby]

Bog Down is nice, but worse than Fall(/Rise) the little brother of hymn

Naw, the little brother is Wrench Mind. Same cost, generally the same effect in a deck with Duress/Thoughtseize (except against Stax/Affinity), and on-color! =)

I wonder how much Chalice for 1 (possibly followed by Chalice for 2) would screw you. Playing against Stompy decks and Stax would be interesting.

Also, what do you do against Landstill? They have the Deed to blow away your stuff, but then they come in with lands, which your sweepers miss. Discard generally does very well against control but you don't have broken first turns via Dark Ritual here.

It's been a couple of months since you last posted. Have you tried these matchups? Any further thoughts? Thanks for the neat design.

[Moczoc]

I testet Wrench Mind and it sucked because:

- People just discard an artifact like Jitte or Vial
- It's not "you choose" or "at random"

Landstill is okay, it's a quite even matchup, The Rack can be a hard clock for them. Stax is very difficult, in some way, their deck concept is similar to mine, but they're more flexible against decks without creatures.

At the moment I haven't developped the deck further because I lost a few games in a row in which my opponents used their sideboards, so I guess it's not as good in tournament-play as in MWS.

Maybe some day I'll test a version of the deck with Bitterblossom and Raven's crime.

[Shtriga]

your final decklist reminds me of a deck some dude had back in 1999 in our local shop. he had bottomless pits and a load of discard, null brooch (which really was a gem), cursed scroll, ensnaring bridge and scalding tongs. he also had a red splash for a bit of burn

[slylie]

-3 Scales, -1 rack + 4 dark ritual
you need to play out your hand asap, the scales are overdoing it when you already have the bridges.

Bitterblossom might be good in here, since you can draw your card, attack then play what you drew.

Sideboard Suggestion=

3-4x Nyxthalid (side out the bridges for these vs combo and control since you will need a faster clock before they draw igg, and seeing you aren't running creatures they will probably side out removal, plus it will help bring burn down as they will just go hellbent and draw burn and run it at your face no matter how much they are discarding )
4x Needle (for deeds)
4x Chalice
3x ???

I like the idea of the deck, it needs alot of work but a heavy discard deck in the right meta will tear shit up, and is a good excuse to make use of the Nyxthalids. I want to suggest smallpox over innocent blood, since it does more... but actually alot of my suggestions will turn your deck into pox. :)

[georgjorge]

Always when I see a MBC variant, I want to splash red and put in Recoup so badly. I love that card in there. The great thing about it is that you can play EITHER removal OR discard in the mid- to lategame, instead of drawing more irrelevant discard or removal (one of either is usually dead). The flashback cost is steep, but worth it to get yet ANOTHER discard or removal. You'd have to replace Snuff with Wretched Banquet (which I like) or Edict though.

IF you'll ever splash another color via fetchlands, I think Top would be very good in there as well.

I like the Bitterblossom suggestion.

[SpikeyMikey]

I really think that there should be a new rule on The N&D forums: you shouldn't be allowed to suggest a different deck to anyone who posts here. Because I could type, "play Threshold" for every thread in the forum, and we wouldn't need the damn thing in the first place.


You're missing the point.

If you're going to build a deck that tries to do what an existing deck does, you need to explain why it does it better. I can't just post a listing for Egg Tendrils and say hey, here's my new deck, what do you think? You have to explain why you think that helm/egg is a better storm engine than AN or IGG or Doomsday.

If you post an Egg deck, someone is going to direct you to ANT or Iggy Pop because those decks are simply better at doing what you're trying to do, which is generate a storm of at least 9 and smack someone upside the head with a lethal Tendrils of Agony. That's what they SHOULD do. This is not the "come up with 60 random cards and post it" forum, it's a developmental forum. 60 random cards belong in the casual forum. I'm not saying that this necessarily belongs there, but I'm not going to lie, I'm pretty skeptical.