Dredging an empty library

[Willoe]

Hi guys, a problem occured earlier this day while playtesting a pauper dredge deck. Here's what happened:

I played against some guy with this merfolk deck. I have nine cards left in library, he has a bunch of merfolk in play including two ink dissolvers. He kinships a merfolk and mills me for six.

Then, his grimoire thief attacks, removing the last three cards in my library. I block and it dies and he passes the turn.

NB. I have triple frightcrawler in play, and he's at seven. I would have won.

Now, here comes my rules question:

Can I REPLACE the draw with dredge which is a replacement effect by dredging the top two cards of my library? I know, in this situation, I'm dredging 0 and theoretically, this is unlogical, but can I actually do this to prevent decking myself?

I spoke a little bit with him, and he began saying he was judging and his name was <Player> so I didn't really trust his proclamations about that I lost.

Of course it ended with:
<Player> Later man, learn the game
<System> Player Lost

Who's right in this situation?

[goobafish]

He is. You cannot dredge an empty library, you need to meet the condition to replace the draw, which is milling the cards.

[Cait_Sith]

Reminder text from dredge cards:

Dredge X (If you would draw a card, instead you may put exactly X cards from the top of your library into your graveyard. If you do, return this card from your graveyard to your hand. Otherwise, draw a card.)

Emphasis mine.

Also, willoe, I told you to ask me if you wanted to play pauper! Less drama.

[undone]

That is correct, on the topic of dredging The only really aquard thing that can come up is when you have say a darksteel collossus or legacy whepon (why i havent the slightest clue unless its to raise a rules issue.) And then its a replacement effect, The question of dredging more then you have in your library would be can you and you lose when you cant any more (it goes back in... NOW as a replacement effect) and the answer is you cannot.

Short answer Dredge is a decking mechanic. It doesnt stop decking it helps you do it to yourself.:tongue:

[Cait_Sith]

That sounded really awkward.

Folks, this is what he was explaining:

You cannot use a single copy of a card like DSC to dredge for something higher than 1 by constantly feeding it back in.

Dredge works like this:

You count the X cards. If you have the appropriate number, all 6 are put into the graveyard at once.

DSC's effect would not be able to replace anything until after the cards have already been dredged.

[mujadaddy]

In fact, if I remember correctly, if you have "less than x" cards in your library, you can't Dredge X, because you can't pay the full cost.

EDIT: Well, I'm having slow load times... Excuse my late response :tongue:

[yggdrasil]

In fact, if I remember correctly, if you have "less than x" cards in your library, you can't Dredge X, because you can't pay the full cost.

Dredge doesn't have a cost like an activated ability, so this argument isn't really valid.

You can't dredge X cards into your graveyard if you only have less than X cards in your library simply because Dredge is defined that way (as was pointed out numerous times already).

[Willoe]

Damn, he was right after all! :O

Whatever, it's good that I came up with a solution to the problem.

Anyway, I might have caused <Player Lost> due to the lack of reminder text on mws

http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?&id=73943

:)

Because it's been a while since I checked my dredge reminder texts, I completely forgot about the EXACTLY word, I thought it was worded the top two cards.

Hmm, if refers to another problem I just encountered. Can Arc-Slogger's activation costs still be paid if there's less than ten cards in your library?

[goobafish]

Hmm, if refers to another problem I just encountered. Can Arc-Slogger's activation costs still be paid if there's less than ten cards in your library?

No. Notice the placement of the colon, it is part of the cost.

[Willoe]

I know, it's just the wording that confused me. Thanks anyway.