[Deck] UB Bounce & Discard

[ParkerLewis]

Hi guys,

I'm trying to help a friend of mine buil/optimize a deck of his own. While the deck is not meant to be the next format breaker, the goal still is to try to make it as good as it can be, and while I’ve done some basic fixing, I’m havng trouble deciding between different options for the rest of the deck.

What I'm gonna do is briefly expose the concept of the deck, then the current "starting point" (ie current base of the possible lists), then add a few specific card ideas that could fill the remaining slots.

1) Concept of the deck :

The deck is a UB Bounce + Discard deck. The goal is to make use of the complementarity of those two game mechanisms : discard as proactive removal, bounce as reactive semi-removal / tempo gain, and the ability to turn bounce into actual removal when it is followed by discard. Thus, the deck's color are naturally UB.

The current build of the deck tries to capitalize of the bounce effects as potential ways to clear the path for creatures with abilites that trigger on damaging the opponent (while still be on-theme, of course), like Dimir Cutpurse, which then also acts as a draw engine. Other such creatures include Hypnotic Specter and Shadowmage Infiltrator.

2) Current base for a decklist :

48 cards, hence 12 slots left (if no other changes are made)

Lands : 21
3 Islands
4 Swamps
4 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
2 Bloodstained Mire
4 Sunken Ruins

Creatures : 10
4 Hypnotic Specter
3 Shadowmage Inflitrator
3 Dimir Cutpurse

Spells
Bounce : 10
4 Repeal
3 Echoing Truth
3 Unsummon

Discard : 4
Hymn to Tourach

Other : 3
3 Warped Devotion

Possible SB :
3 Engineered Plague
3 Propaganda
3 Extirpate
3 Tormod’s Crypt
3 Thoughtseize

3) Explanation :

Pretty much all cards should be self-explanatory.

WD are here to turn all bounces into additional discard. As such, it’s quite insane. There are only 3 though because the deck’s curve has already quite a peak on 3, and drawing two is pretty much overkill (plus it’s just mana-expensive for somehting than doesn’t do anything on its own).
The bounce suite is pretty classic, I guess. Repeals are important to help you go through the deck. Unsummon is currently preferred to something like boomerang smply because it’s cheaper and still takes care of the creatures which could prevent Dimir Cutpurse from connecting.
The actual discard spells are currently limited to Hymn.
The creatures enforce the discard aspect while also serving as draw engines, sometimes both at the same time (Dimir Cutpurse).

4) Current issues :

As you may have noticed though, the land count is not very high, that’s why the next cards will have to take that into account, either on helping on the mana or by being very light on their requirements. The other problem of the deck is it’s relative difficulty to actually win once it has managed to take control of the game.

5) Possible card choices :

Now I will give some specific potential cards I've thought about for the remaining slots. Of course, feel free to suggest others if you think they'd be better suited ;)
-Brainstorm : best cantrip in the format. Same use as in other decks. Specifically, would help compensate for the light land count.

-Augury Adept : to keep on theme with the other creatures, provides additional draw and tempo (that’s basically what lifegain is about). There is probably enough tools already in the list to be sure it will connect. If this card is selected, then it might be a good idea to also select…

-Aether Vial : would help a lot on the mana as it would allow to cast the creatures on a « separate » , additional mana base.

-Aphotic Wisps : easy on the mana, replace itself, and would help Cutpurse and (possible card choice) Adept connect. Probably not worth it though : if Adepts are added, there should be enough draw as it is, and if Adepts are not added, then it would only be useful on Cutpurse.

-Dream Salvage : easy on the mana, card advantage. Might require a bit setup to be actually useful though : you want the opponent to have discarded at least two cards this turn before using it. It’s not hard to accomplish, but I’m not sold on the idea of adding cards that don’t do anything by themselves. There are already the Warped Devotion, and that might really enough as it is.

-Thoughtseize : most powerful discard available. Although I have the feeling it would only help against combo as the list already has plenty of tools to fight permanents on the board (bounce effects). That’s why it’s in the SB for now.

-The Rack : iconic card. Would be a very cheap (read : mana light) way of helping the deck accelerating the win once it has established control. Of course it’s not that quick to win, but surprisingly, it’s often enough to help take down the opponent in two to three turns when the deck has stabilized (usually in conjunction with one or two of the deck’s creatures, the opponent having already lost some life via previous attacks, fetches, and so on).

-Recoil : has been dismissed because although very on theme (bounce and discard, wee !), i twas simply too hard to cast for its actual effect on the board.

-Dark Ritual : to be considered. Helps powering out T1 Hyppies or an early Devotion. Only problem is, the other critters can’t be casted from it, so its uses are in fact limited and thus it might be not worth it. The new Shadowmoor double land helps fixing the colors, but you still have to wait for an additional mana.

I think some of those cards might help cover the mana problems (Aether Vial and/or Branstorm specifically). Still, my main concern with the deck is the need for a quick way to do some harm to be able to win faster once it’s established control. It doesn’t even have to win by itself, just somathing to take care of what the opponent has left. And please do not say Tarmogoyf ;)

Thanks for your help and suggestions.

[Angelfire]

I had a bounce discard deck that I played at a casual tournament when I was pretty noobish (curve was above 3, wasn't 60 cards but it was solid). Anyway I got matched up against a thirty something year old guy who was playing a Sneak Attack deck. Long story short he flipped out, stormed out and returned with tears in his eyes :)

He'd sneak a guy into play I'd Recoil it w/ Warped Devotion in play and/or just straight up bounce Sneak Attack. He later played Burning Wish when I had like 4-5 Enchantments out and he had replaced Tranquility with Hull Breach before the tourney :) I later beat his adult sister and he got kinda mad at me (I was like 16 at the time).

My deck was extremely slow but once established slaughtered other slow decks, my only win condition was Megrim and Capsize, oh and people scooping.

[ParkerLewis]

I had a bounce discard deck that I played at a casual tournament when I was pretty noobish (curve was above 3, wasn't 60 cards but it was solid). Anyway I got matched up against a thirty something year old guy who was playing a Sneak Attack deck. Long story short he flipped out, stormed out and returned with tears in his eyes :)

He'd sneak a guy into play I'd Recoil it w/ Warped Devotion in play and/or just straight up bounce Sneak Attack. He later played Burning Wish when I had like 4-5 Enchantments out and he had replaced Tranquility with Hull Breach before the tourney :) I later beat his adult sister and he got kinda mad at me (I was like 16 at the time).

My deck was extremely slow but once established slaughtered other slow decks, my only win condition was Megrim and Capsize, oh and people scooping.

Yeah, that was basically what the deck used to be before my friend asked for my help ;) Aka something that works but unfortunately gets pummeled by anything a bit serious / optimized.

While keeping close to his idea and requests, I'm trying to avoid that ;)

[rufus]

Other cards to consider:
Riptide pilferer
Headhunter

Corrupt Court Offical
Ravenous Rats

Daze
Force of Will
Counterspell

Aethersnipe
Capsize
Reality Strobe

An issue with cards like Unsummon or Word of Undoing is that most of the time all they do is buy a little bit of time at the cost of a card.

[conboy31]

I would maybe add something like Ensnaring Bridge in the deck. All of your creatures can swing under it and some have evasion that make blockers moot. Plus it would serve as a small roadblock for larger aggro decks to take care of before then can smash face. It also goes well with all your bounce spells when you run out of gas with no pressure on the board

So, for the 12 I might do something like:

3 Ensnaring Bridges
4 Force of Will
2 Jitte
1 Urborg tomb land
2 Counterspell

Although I would have to sleeve it up and see if what the deck needs is this counterspell package and artifact shenanigans.

[ParkerLewis]

Other cards to consider:
Riptide pilferer
Headhunter


Those two might be interesting because although lesser versions of hypnotic/cutpurse, they do cost one mana less which would be better for the curve.


Corrupt Court Offical
Ravenous Rats


On the other hand, these two can be dismissed on the spot. At one mana, they would be like a bad Duress (you don't choose the discarded card, your opponent does), with a free useless 1/1 attached. They would be bad
At two mana... well they're basically bin/bonfire material ;)


Daze
Force of Will
Counterspell


Yeah, I've been thinking of counterspells. Counterspell wouldn't make it though, as the list clearly does not have enough mana to support it. Force of Will or Daze could be options, although I'm not sure my friend would be willing to buy the FoWs (he already had all the duals, so money wasn't an issue for those).



Aethersnipe
Capsize
Reality Strobe


The deck simply does not have the mana resources to even consider these cards. Plus, they're slow as hell, so they're a big no-no as well ;)


An issue with cards like Unsummon or Word of Undoing is that most of the time all they do is buy a little bit of time at the cost of a card.

Well... true. But if they took care of a potential blocker, then they allowed one of the critters to damage the opponent, which means there is no card disadvantage anymore, as you either drew a card from it or made the opponent discard one (or even both thanks to DC). So the net effect is generally 0 in CA, but a tempo gain (you often spent less on your U Unsummon than the opponent did playing his creature) and a life advantage (additional damage on the opponent + possible life gain for you if it enabled an Augury Adept to connect).


I would maybe add something like Ensnaring Bridge in the deck. All of your creatures can swing under it and some have evasion that make blockers moot. Plus it would serve as a small roadblock for larger aggro decks to take care of before then can smash face. It also goes well with all your bounce spells when you run out of gas with no pressure on the board

This is probably a good suggestion in the abstract. Problem is, the deck does not really get out of gas. The 4 Repeals replace themselves, every creature is a CA source, and the curve tends to be too high, so you tend to get more cards than you can actually play. Which means your hand is usually pretty full, thus kind of defeating the point of Bridge. Hence the choice of Propaganda in the SB.



2 Jitte


Yeah, I had been wondering about equipment too. At first I thought that it would simply be another slow option, but in fact you're totally right, this is probably a good way to take care of the "finisher" need of the deck by simply making all the creatures potential finishers.

In fact, barring another miraculous idea to take care of this problem, I think you're right on the spot on this, especially with Jittes instead of Swords (as those feel too much of an investment at 3+2). I guess there are 2 spots less to fill in the deck ;) Thanks a lot !

So the list, as of now, is :

Current base for a decklist :

50 cards, hence 10 slots left (if no other changes are made)

Lands : 21
3 Islands
4 Swamps
4 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
2 Bloodstained Mire
4 Sunken Ruins

Creatures : 10
4 Hypnotic Specter
3 Shadowmage Inflitrator
3 Dimir Cutpurse

Spells
Bounce : 10
4 Snap
3 Echoing Truth
3 Repeal

Discard : 4
Hymn to Tourach

Other : 5
3 Warped Devotion
2 Umezawa’s Jitte

Possible SB :
3 Engineered Plague
3 Propaganda
3 Extirpate
3 Tormod’s Crypt
3 Thoughtseize


With the problem of a finisher seemingly taken care of thanks to the addition of Jittes (2 should be enough as you’re drawing quite a bit of cards, and they’re actually only needed as finishers), the only problem left is that of the mana curve.

Reminder of possible card options to fill the slots : Aether Vial ? Brainstorm / Ponder (helps finding out lands) ?
Other options : thoughtseize (best discard and mana-cheap), daze (free counter) ? Cephalid Constable, Augury Adept ?
Possible changes in list : Riptide Pilferer / Headhunter to replace the Shadowmages (as they’re 1 mana less to play) ?

[Finn]

You want Recoil. You do not want Warped Devotion.

[ParkerLewis]

You want Recoil. You do not want Warped Devotion.

I'm not sure my friend would accept getting rid of the WD. I already had trouble explaining to him that 3 were probably enough as he wouldn't want two of them clogging his hand.

But here, even I probably would agree on keeping them. There are already 10 bounce spells, so if you were to add Recoils, it would be instead of other bounce spells, I guess. Other bounce spells that are far less mana-intensive (unsummon), or replace themselves (repeal), or Echoing Truth (which has its utility against multiples and is here again one mana less).

Well, I don't know, but I don't think I could getting him get rid of the WD (and I'm not even sold on the idea, actually) as this is basically the "johnny" part of the deck, upgrading all your 10 bounce spells.

So given, their high cc, if Recoils were to be added, then it would probably be in some of the creatures slots to not push the curve further on 3. It could be fine to do so, I don't know.

[Finn]

Hey Parker. Sorry I was so brief before (at work). Let me explain a bit. I have made a few attempts at this deck, and it was always too slow for my tastes. But I stopped using Warped Devotion after I noticed that I was using my bounce spells before I could get Warped Devotion into play. The fact that they are cheaper than WD and there is no room for actual good answers makes the deck very weak. You end up casting all the bounce out of necessity, and have an empty hand by the time your cool things are up and running.

Good decks use good cards is. Warped Devotion does NOTHING on its own, so it is not a good card. With the exception of equipment, betcha can't name a card in any of the DTB decks that have that problem.

[Isamaru]

I'm sorry to hear you feel that way, Finn. While I do agree with that in general, there are still many exceptions to this (Hunted Horror). But, I will concede that Warped Devotion is not fast or strong enough to be included as an exception.

[Sanguine Voyeur]

Warped Devotion may come down soon enough if you run Ancient Tomb and City of Traitors. That also would also allow you to run more costly bounce, Chalice, and Tinisphere.
Warped Devotion does NOTHING on its own, so it is not a good card. With the exception of equipment, betcha can't name a card in any of the DTB decks that have that problem.Dreadnought (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8964).

[Mordenkaynen]

OMG) if you want to be faster, use fast spells.
Snap, snapback - for bouncing creatures;
dark ritual - for landing specters, (scepters) and Warped Devotion.
I tried sometime ago to build a deck that abuses bounce, but had patience only to search some tehs.
You can think about:
- hunted horror
- gilded drake (instead of Warped Devotion)
- isochron scepter
- waterfront bouncer
- seal of removal
- arcane lab. + manlands

Or try cards mentioned by Sanguine Voyeur. I think they're more suitable for bounce + ld deck.

There are several versions of the strategy and you have to understand which is the best (tempo advantage [laboratory, manlands, bouncer], very fast bounce + cutpurses and other very cheap CA-creatures, bounce + LD or something else).

Remember that you have to fill your hand. If you use arcane laboratory you can use kami of the crescent moon or (worse) howling mine; if you play fast bounce, use CA-creatures.

[ParkerLewis]

Thanks for all your input. Just keep in mind that this is not an attempt at building The Next Deck To Beat, this is just an attempt at "improving" a friend's casual deck into "optimized casual".

To better set things up, here are some info about the "original" list :

-except for Dark Ritual, Boomerang (yeah, boomerang, not echoing truth) and The Rack, curve used to start @ 3.
-list ran uncastable / unusable crap like Capsize, Temporal Adept, Rushing River.
-list ran Megrim.
-there was absolutely no draw / cantrip effects except for Phyrexian Arena.
-to cast all these expensive things, there were only 21 lands (4 Sea, 4 Delta, 7 Swamps, 6 Islands) and nothing else.

As you can see, I pretty much already nerfed half the deck, and I wouldn't want to completely kill my friend's original deck (it was his own creation, after all), because I'm not sure he would even be happy about it (and I wouldn't feel happy doing that to him either ;) ). Once again, he's not interested in winning tournaments, he's basically just an exclusive kitchen table player that asked me to help him tune his deck ;)

Edit : sorry for the double-post, merging :


Snap

Of course. can't believe I forgot about this card. It's an obvious replacement for Unsummon, thanks a lot.



dark ritual - for landing specters, (scepters) and Warped Devotion.

I've talked about dark ritual a few times. It's currently not in the list simply because there are only 7 cards you could use it on to play them on T1 instead of T3. Sure, it still can prove a bit useful later on, but if you were to test it in the list, you'd really realize how not that huge it is here.



I tried sometime ago to build a deck that abuse bounce, but had patience only to search some tehs.
You can think about:
- hunted horror


I can see the point of hunted horror, tokens make great bounce targets. Good option to consider, although i do not like the opportunity you're giving the opponent to have an additional free attack for 6 before you if you have no echoing truth in hand. if you have another bounce, it's still an additional free 3 damage.

[DrewliusMaximus]

I was thinking about putting together something like this:

4 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Underground Sea
1 Island
8 Swamp
4 Chrome Mox

4 Thoughtsieze
2 Cabal Therapy
4 Hymn to Tourach

4 Dark Confidant
4 Nantuko Shade
4 Hypnotic Specter

4 Echoing Truth
4 Trinket Mage

2 Jitte
1 Meekstone
1 Pithing Needle
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Sensei's Top
1 Tormod's Crypt

I know this a bit different than what is being discussed, but I thought I'd post anyway. Rather than focus completely on bounce/discard, the concept could be used to complement a well-rounded UB strategy.

[Mordenkaynen]

So, if you don't want to suggest him "almost another deck" I think the best way to help the friend is to discuss the stratagy. As I understood, he would prefer fast bounce + fast CA creatures. They were mentioned. Ask him if he want to add some other tehs abusing return (drake etc.). If he prefers "straight" version, it's better to use seal, laboratory, manlands and main part of the deck.

Here is a very interesting deck (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9400) that uses return. Try how it works.

Edit: well, I didn't test laboratory ever, so I can be wrong. But the main idea is simple: if there is labaratory in play opponent plays a permanent each turn and we return it back the same turn. In our turn we play creatures or manlands sometimes. Then if we have enough discarding creatures, he lose his hand after some turns. Use mox if it's available.

[ParkerLewis]

Ask him if he want to add some other tehs abusing return (drake etc.). If he prefers "straight" version, it's better to use seal, laboratory, manlands and main part of the deck.

Actually, I didn't get those cards the first time you mentioned them. I don't see the interest of Gilded Drake, you'll be playing two cards (gilded+bounce on your gilded now controlled by the opponent) only to take control of a creature...

Seal is bad. It's strictly worse than Unsummon, which does not even deserve a spot in the list now that you reminded me of Snap (thanks for that again, by the way).

Arcane Lab and manlands are a good idea, but I'm afraid this will just feel too much of a different deck in comparison to the original. I'll ask him though, but I wouldn't count on it. That's why I presented the problem as I did, with a "core list" of ~48-50 cards that wasn't really supposed to be changed, with the remaning slots otherwise free to be filled with whatever could fit best with this "core".

[Mordenkaynen]

A.. I see. Seal's aim is to clean the table and it can be suspended by "the time of creatures" (which can be cheaper as headhunter or riftide pilferer are).

Then if you run infiltrators and specters it's not so necessary. But cutpurse seems to be vulnerable. So you have to consider something that will clean the table in the best way. May be snuff out. It's fast enough. But it also doesn't do anything with mongoose. A little nonconsistent cards are curfew and diabolic edict. But it depends on the meta)

Hey, cabal therapy may be better than hymn).

[ParkerLewis]

A.. I see. Seal's aim is to clean the table and it can be suspended by "the time of creatures" (which can be cheaper as headhunter or riftide pilferer are).

Then if you run infiltrators and specters it's not so necessary. But cutpurse seems to be vulnerable. So you have to consider something that will clean the table in the best way. May be snuff out. It's fast enough. But it also doesn't do anything with mongoose. A little nonconsistent cards are curfew and diabolic edict. But it depends on the meta)

Hey, cabal therapy may be better than hymn).

The meta is there's no meta, it's basically casual ;)

Anyway, the "clean the table" part is the goal of all the bounce. That's a part of why they're here, to help the critters with damage-based abilities to punch through (the other parts 1) being the tempo gain, 2) that this is the deck's theme, and finally 3) the interaction with Warped Devotion).

No, the only problem left of the deck (given what is being expected from it, ie not necessarily winning the next large tournament) is reliably being able to cast all of this.

Potential options include Aether Vial, Dark Ritual or maybe others, like Chrome Mox. Which of these three cards would be the best suited ?

-Aether Vial pros are reusability. Its cons are the time it needs to be useful (it needs three counters on it before it's effective with the current build).

-Dark Ritual pros are its instantaneous bonus. Cons include being a one-time effect only, plus having only 7 targets in the deck for a first turn acceleration.

-Chrome Mox pros include reusability and versatility (mana is usable for every spell in the deck). Cons are card disadvantage and "limited" effect (only +1 mana).

What do you guys think ?

[rufus]

One of the ways to abuse bounce is to use it to recycle CITP or Leaves Play cards like Slithermuse, Mulldrifter, or Shriekmaw.

[ParkerLewis]

Thanks for the input. Although the bounce in the deck was meant to be directed at the opponent's permanents, and thus should probably stay so, unless there's some real good incentive doing so.

Unfortunately, the cards you mentioned are all way too expensive to cast.

[Mordenkaynen]

Well, I think mox is more suitable here. It allows to play each of your creature, hence is less random than ritual. It also allows to bounce turn 1.

Ritual is better if you run scepter, therapy, thoughseize: your explosiveness increases much and it wouldn't be a dead card (dead cards are terrible here: you have only cutpurses to draw).

[sorry, not you, but your friend]

[ParkerLewis]

Well, I think mox is more suitable here. It allows to play each of your creature, hence is less random than ritual. It also allows to bounce turn 1.

Ritual is better if you run scepter, therapy, thoughseize: your explosiveness increases much and it wouldn't be a dead card (dead cards are terrible here: you have only cutpurses to draw).

[sorry, not you, but your friend]

I also think mox would be better than ritual. But what about aether vial ? I'd say mox's big advantage is allowing the deck to actually put those creatures on the table one turn faster - something that aether vial can't do. On the other hand, once aether vial has reached three counters, you've got a free three mana every turn to play your creatures with uncounterability and Flash.

(quick note about the draw remark, there are both cutpurses and shadowmage infiltrators)

[and no offense taken, don't worry ;)]

edit : ok, tested the Moxes, they fared well better than aether vial did in the previous tests i did. being effective immediately was exactly what the deck needed the most and what vial unfortunately lacked.

So here is the final list i'm probably going to suggest to my friend :

Total : 60 cards

Lands : 21
3 Island
4 Swamp
4 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
3 Bloodstained Mire

Creatures : 10
4 Hypnotic Specter
3 Shadowmage Infiltrator
3 Dimir Cutpurse

Bounce : 10
4 Echoing Truth
3 Snap
3 Repeal

Discard : 7
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Thoughtseize

Other : 12
4 Chrome Mox
3 Warped Devotion
3 Brainstorm
2 Umezawa's Jitte

(possible SB :
3 Engineered Plague
3 Extirpate
3/4 Propaganda
3 Tormod's Crypt ?
2/3 other slots ?)

What do you guys think ? The brainstorms have been selected for their good complimentarity with Moxes as they'll help refill the hand on what has been imprinted on it, or simply make for better imprinting decision (in addition to their normal/usual benefits). Other side effect is the increased fetch count (10) to make better use of bs.

i'm actually quite pleased with result, it sure is a lot smoother than the initial "pile" i had to start working on (temporal adepts, curve starting @ 3, etc) and still has the same playing feel than the original (which was one the prerequisities). Hopefully my friend will feel the same way, but i really think he's going to be pleased too.

Still and finally, what choices could there be if i were to also suggest a sideboard ? as opposed to the main, there was no constraints on it to start with (there just wasn't any SB), so i was thinking about making a SB that could give him the possibility to be at least a somewhat decent opponent against more optimized builds (read : tournament, non casual decks). Hence the current cards I thought of : Propaganda is a must against all kinds of fast aggro, EP would significantly help in the gob matchup, extirpate helps against dredge-based strategies that the deck would also surely have trouble against. i'm just not sure for the other slots. Should there be be some cards devoted to beat storm-based strategies ? More generic answers (BEB/Hydroblasts) ?

[Finn]

Parker, I like the way this is headed.

Brainstorm is nutz good. You really want four. And since the Chrome Moxes suck in multiples, suck late, and you have 25 mana sources, you can go down to three safely there. I have to say that I think you are making a mistake by having those rather small creatures be the only win conditions. I personally like Nezumi Shortfang for this deck. Finally, I want to reiterate the lovely card parity Recoil has. Only Repeal can compete on that level. And if the opponent's hand is empty, it is an instant speed Vindicate. So I say:

-1 Chrome Mox
+1 Brainstorm
-4 Echoing Truth
+4 Recoil
-2 Umezawa's Jitte
-1 Swamp
+3 Nezumi Shortfang

EDIT:

I'm sorry to hear you feel that way, Finn. While I do agree with that in general, there are still many exceptions to this (Hunted Horror). But, I will concede that Warped Devotion is not fast or strong enough to be included as an exception.I actually forgot entirely about Vile Horror in my remark. That deck went a long way towards making dead cards still do something - and it was full of them. Despotic Scepter, Tel-Jilad Stylus, etc. But only because you were keenly aware of this during design and worked your tail off to make it work in practice. You might recall that I tried for the past two years to get you to replace some of them with Trinket Mages - but that is another discussion.

I stand on my assertion that using Warped Devotion will keep this deck as strictly casual because of that, however. Parker has said that this is his aim, and I think we can all understand that. Parker, be sure to mention it to your friend though. He may relent.

[ParkerLewis]

Parker, I like the way this is headed.

Brainstorm is nutz good. You really want four. And since the Chrome Moxes suck in multiples, suck late, and you have 25 mana sources, you can go down to three safely there. I have to say that I think you are making a mistake by having those rather small creatures be the only win conditions. I personally like Nezumi Shortfang for this deck. Finally, I want to reiterate the lovely card parity Recoil has. Only Repeal can compete on that level. And if the opponent's hand is empty, it is an instant speed Vindicate. So I say:

-1 Chrome Mox
+1 Brainstorm
-4 Echoing Truth
+4 Recoil
-2 Umezawa's Jitte
-1 Swamp
+3 Nezumi Shortfang

(snip)

I stand on my assertion that using Warped Devotion will keep this deck as strictly casual because of that, however. Parker has said that this is his aim, and I think we can all understand that. Parker, be sure to mention it to your friend though. He may relent.

Thanks again for your input.

The deck's main problem is its already quite high curve with all those spells @ 3 (13 is a lot). The deck is definitely not that easy on the mana.

that being said, only cards costing 3 or more should basically be either :
-a threat and/or wincon (the creatures)
or
-warped devotion. I mean, i could try speaking my friend out of them again, but i already had troubles making him accept going down to only three, and there would currently be a lot of things for him to accept/learn from the current build. Going further would probably be too much for now - which doesn't mean i might not try again in a few weeks or now when he has a better comprehension of the reasons why the new deck is better than the previous one he gave me (better curve, etc).

I guess what I mean is that Recoil simply isn't doing enough for its cost, especially since the deck's already high 3cc spell count. Sure it's a vindicate once you've established a winning position (opponent has discarded his whole hand), but before that, it's not influencing the board enough for its cost. Even if you did establish a winning position, then what you want the most now is a kill (ie creature), not additional removal :/

(Anyway, if you're not convinced, try the deck on mws if you've got some spare time. I think you'll see for yourself how recoil is never the card you'd really want)

On the 3/4 Mox vs 3/4 Brainstorm, the same reasoning basically applied : the deck needs a Mox far more than it needs a Brainstorm. A brainstorm is always a good help, sure, but a Mox is a real boost compared to a hand without it. Simply put, the card has just proved more useful (at least in what I've witnessed in my testing). But i agree that it is more of a debate, and 3 Mox 4 BS may also well be a correct choice.

Finally, NS was also considered and not included because it suffers from the same problem than The Rack : it's too slow while not offering any additional help. Sure, you get a 3/3 in addition to the rack effect, but it's also that much more vulnerable to removal. And you spent at least 2BB in the process. Jitte simply felt superior for an easier price (4), between the ability to also gain life if needed and/or act as removal besides the possible additional 4 damage a turn.

Once again, this is largely based on the testing of the cards, so i strongly encourage you to also try for yourself. You'll probably feel the same way then, and if you don't, well then you'll have actual game scenarios to show what happened and why I'm mistaken - I'm definitely not infallible.

[Mordenkaynen]

) Forget about propaganda in the SB. I think so because usage of it means that you recede from the stratagy of bouncing and try to slow down their attack. With your small creatures you won't win such a game. I'd suggest something like perish to consider for the SB.

[ParkerLewis]

) Forget about propaganda in the SB. I think so because usage of it means that you recede from the stratagy of bouncing and try to slow down their attack. With your small creatures you won't win such a game. I'd suggest something like perish to consider for the SB.

Propaganda limits the number of attacking creatures to 2 at most, also making the opponent use all of its resources for it. The goal is as you pointed it to slow them down - enough to give the deck a few additional turns to stabilize and eventually win via raw ca from shadowmages / cutpurses, or simply find a jitte.

On the other hand, perish is far too narrow a card to be considered :/

[Mordenkaynen]

Hm.. I don't know. Versus what kinds of aggro do you want to SB? There usually are several types of hordes and it's better to do SB for them (Icho, Gobs, tokens, affinity may be). If opponent has so many creatures on the table that you can't return all of them how do you want to return them some time later when their number increases?
Well, possible way to use propaganda is to attack with small unblockable creatures and return their ones during their attack, but still - your creatures are vulnerable for removal.
I thought mostly about thresh match or even simply about the game vs mongeese and goyfs. You don't use factory, so mongeese are the problem. Propaganda will do nothing vs two big angry beasts and the only hope will be to get bounce each turn for goyf (sorry, each two turns) and try to do more damage than more damage than mongoose do. (Yeah, I can't forget about most common decks of Legacy while discussing Legacy).
Perish is not a narrow card IMO. At least because goyf is in a half of all legacy decks))

[ParkerLewis]

I thought mostly about thresh match or even simply about the game vs mongeese and goyfs. You don't use factory, so mongeese are the problem. Propaganda will do nothing vs two big angry beasts and the only hope will be to get bounce each turn for goyf (sorry, each two turns) and try to do more damage than more damage than mongoose do. (Yeah, I can't forget about most common decks of Legacy while discussing Legacy).

Perish is not a narrow card IMO. At least because goyf is in a half of all legacy decks))

Seriously, the deck has ten bounce effects, lone creatures are not a concern. Difficult match-ups are hordes of small creatures. Cases where Porpaganda works wonder, because that's what the card essentially does : turn hordes of critters into lone creatures.

[Mordenkaynen]

lone creatures are not a concern
Except of mongoose.
May be good deal is to try unstable mutation:
- it makes cutpurses larger, so they are not so vulnerable and can attack when "the hord" of opponent's creatures seats in block
- it allows you to finish much faster (+6 damage, while infiltrators and specters are unblockable)
- it's awesome when there is mongoose on the table.

[ParkerLewis]

Except of mongoose.

It's still a 3/3 at most. It's a clock, sure, but a slow enough one by itself.


May be good deal is to try unstable mutation:

UNstable mutation sure is a good card. But Jitte simply feels superior.

[Mordenkaynen]

Jitte is superior of course. [I didn't test this deck, so] I'm not sure if it's fast enough. In early posts you mentioned that the deck is slow as hell) May be it's time to stop speaking and do some tests.

[ParkerLewis]

Jitte is superior of course. [I didn't test this deck, so] I'm not sure if it's fast enough. In early posts you mentioned that the deck is slow as hell) May be it's time to stop speaking and do some tests.

Jitte shouldn't even be that much slower, as you can do an additional 4 damage a turn, while you can do only 3 with UM (and only the first turn at that).

Even if UM were to be a bit faster (it simply won't be more than a bit), the other abilities of Jitte completely bury it.

Feel free to playtest it, but i can't playtest everything, especially when there is so few doubts about the result.

[Mordenkaynen]

Well, this list is not so vulnerable to mongeese as it runs 7 unblockable creatures, but I'd suggest to try engineered explosives. It's insane here. It crashes mongeese, vial and other 1cc problems (for example, if an opponent has two or three creatures like kird ape or skyshroud elite, bounce is not that impressive). Also fits warren match-ups. And it may be that chalice @1 is better choise than thoughtseize. It forbids burning your guys, wrecks some combo, crashes threshold. So, may be
-3 brainstorm
-3 thougtseize
+2 chalice
+3 EE
+1 lotus petal
?
Edit: if there is no Jitte on the table, you can EE goyfs and other 2cc staff without any drawbacks.

[rufus]

...

I guess what I mean is that Recoil simply isn't doing enough for its cost, especially since the deck's already high 3cc spell count. Sure it's a vindicate once you've established a winning position (opponent has discarded his whole hand), but before that, it's not influencing the board enough for its cost. Even if you did establish a winning position, then what you want the most now is a kill (ie creature), not additional removal :/

(Anyway, if you're not convinced, try the deck on mws if you've got some spare time. I think you'll see for yourself how recoil is never the card you'd really want)

You could put Waterfront Bouncer, Man o War, or Rescind in its place.

[ParkerLewis]

You could put Waterfront Bouncer, Man o War, or Rescind in its place.

Waterfront Bouncer requires investment (1U for a 1/1). Man o war is interesting... only problem is it's only bouncing creatures. Snap already has this restriction, it might be better not to add the same restriction to another bounce effect in the deck... but it's arguable, and Man o War could very well replace Repeal in this case.

Rescind, on the other hand... well, it's just a bad recoil.