BWr Discard

[Valtrix]

So, I've been starting to play some discard decks lately. I found a nice red card that I really like, storm world, so I've been trying to incorporate that into a discard shell. However, as I started doing that I begin to realize that I didn't like how it was going, because my threats were a bit slow/it was hard to match aggro. Also, I'd hurt myself quite a bit, which was a problem. So, I came up with a BWr version of discard, and want some critique on it. I've been playing it on workstation so far, and it seems pretty strong. (Maybe can cut a land.)

Land (23)
4x Bloodstained Mire
3x Polluted Delta
4x Scrubland
4x Badlands
4x Swamp
4x Mishra's factory

Threats(10)
4x Dark Confidant
3x Jotun Grunt
3x Storm world (http://magiccards.info/lg/en/162.html)

Discard(17)
4x Gerard's Verdict
4x Hymn to tourach
4x Thoughtseize
3x Duress
2x Cabal therapy

Removal(10)
4x Swords to Plowshares
3x Vindicate
3x Lightning helix

Board
4x Extirpate
4x Pyroclasm
4x Pithing needle
1x Vindicate
1x Duress
1x Jotun Grunt

Not exactly sure exactly for board; seems decent right now.

Card selections:

Jotun Grunt: Amazing in here. Blocks, does lots of damage, graveyard (goyf) hate. Plus, he's cheap. Helps win a lot of games.

Storm World: Why I felt like making this kind of deck. With how much I wear down my opponent's hand, this can really be damaging. This helps of win lots of games too. Unforunately it's world enchantment, but it's still very powerful.

Cabal therapy: I didn't want to run too many of these, because I don't have a ton of creatures. However, running two seems good. Not only can I sacrifice a bob if I can't afford the life, but I can cast, then sacrifice a jotun grunt when it would die anyway. Works well with 7 other cards that let me see their hand.

Swords to plowshares: I hate the lifegain on this, but it's so cheap, and the removal from game has helped me on quite a few occasions. Usually not a problem for grunt because one card in the graveyard usually won't matter a ton. Haven't found anything better.

Lightning Helix: I was unsure if I wanted to include this. I think it works pretty well for removal because it gets rid of 90% of creatures in legacy, and I really need that lifegain. Can also be used to make my clock faster if needbe.

Pyroclasm (board): I like this choice, because it's cheap to cast. My biggest problem playing this type of deck has been quick aggro (or empty the warren tokens). This should clear the field in those kind of matchups, and help me recover.

Well, that was a quick post I suppose. Trying to tune it now; I think it has potential.

[Angelfire]

I've always liked discard and you went with my 3 favorite colors in Magic.

A few suggestions:
1.) I'd cut red completely, it only gives you two cards Storm World which can be The Rack and Helix which could be Smother or Diabolic Edict. Clasm in the board could also be replaced fairly easily (Engineered Explosives, Engineered Plague etc...)

2.) Consider adding another threat like Hypnotic Specter, Oona's Prowler or another fatty like Negator. After you destroy their hand its important to end the game fast for discard.

3.) Acceleration like Dark ritual or Chrome Mox can make a huge difference in your tempo.

[Team-Hero]

I would cut the red as well.

Maybe 1-2 Reanimates would help the deck out.

[Valtrix]

But red gives me storm world which is really much, much better than the rack. The rack is too slow, in my testing anyway. I've played with storm world quite a bit, and it wins me a lot of games where the rack doesn't. It also gives me pyroclasm in the board, which I think is better than most other BW alternatives for removing mass amounts of creatures. While the helixes could be edict or smother, I think the life gain combined with the ability to use it on my opponent is worth it. Being able to send damage directly at my opponent has certainly helped quite a bit. Plus, it's really not that hard to splash red. I've never had problem casting anything in this deck.

I don't think rit or mox really adds much to this deck. Because it's so color intensive, three black really isn't that useful. Mox is cool, but I don't really need the speed--I just need to keep depleting their business cards, which tends not to be too hard. I think getting rid of one my cards would hurt more.

The reanimates are cool. I could probably cut one swamp and something for 1-2 of them. I don't want to run a lot because I don't run a ton of creatures. I'd be concerned with the lifeloss, but it'll probably be minimal anyway. I'll definitely try these out.

[Cait_Sith]

Storm World is, at best, one point faster, but cannot be played in multiples.

Also, Reanimate can dig up your opponent's dropped creatures. An effective, if painful, tactic.

[Team-Hero]

Also, Reanimate can dig up your opponent's dropped creatures. An effective, if painful, tactic.

Yes. That was the reason why I mentioned Reanimate. It isn't so much for your creatures, but more for theirs. There's a good feeling behind being able to Reanimate a Tarmogoyf after it's been dealt with.

[FoolofaTook]

It looks very interesting. BWR is my favorite color cycle also so anything that's built along those lines is interesting.

Here are a few obvious ideas that might fit:

Sedge Trolls in a 2x or 3x role. They standoff against Nimble Mongoose and Tarmogoyf fairly well. 3cc for a 3/3 regenerator without evasion is still fairly valuable. Particularly in a deck that has other early StP targets like Dark Confidant and Mishra's Factory. Swap 1 in for 1 of the Jotun Grunts and 1 in for a Vindicate (in conjunction with the swap below) and see how they play for you. They're no harder to land than Jotun Grunts, in fact easier given the constraints grunts are under. They can also be cast under Bloodmoon effects, even if they lose power until you draw a swamp or a way to ditch the moon.

Hide//Seek over Gerrard's Verdict. An instant you cast during the opponent's turn to either remove something really nasty (Phyrexian Dreadnought, Goblin Charbelcher waiting on a mana source to activate, Chalice@1, Blood Moon, maybe even an early Counterbalance with a little luck) or to remove a threat from their deck once you've determined that's the best way to go. Gains life also.

For the sideboard remove the Pithing Needles and add Yixlid Jailors. That allows you to shut down the opponent's graveyard without making the deck a lot more passive in the process. It also allows your discard to proceed full steam ahead against many decks that want cards in the yard.

I like the concept you have and I think if it was made a little bit more active and a little bit more flexible it has some real promise.

[Valtrix]

Reanimate is a cool idea; I've tested it a little bit, and it seems pretty decent. It's a nice surprise tactic. However, it's anti-synergy with grunt, and there's not always great targets to choose. I decided to cut one swamp for a reanimate.

I'm unsure how sedge trolls would be in the deck. It is a 3 cost 3/3 with regenerate...That's not exactly the best with bob, plus it's a bit slow. I'm thinking spectral lynx might be a better choice, however, I am unsure if I even need more creatures right now. I guess it's something to test though.

Gerrard's Verdict is strictly better in my opinion. I have vindicate for problem permanants, and I can make them discard most relevant things early game. Seek seems to be not worth it--I don't really want to waste one of my cards to remove one possible threat from their deck. This is why I have extirpate in the sideboard, not only for graveyard hate, but for decks that rely on a few win conditions (or things that are particularly annoying for me to deal with). Plus, a lot of games I get a bob out with a low hand and my opponent with even less cards. At points when I don't have anything relevant to make my opponent discard I can use verdict on myself to gain six life =)

But jailor just doesn't do what pithing needle does. I can shut a few things off in the graveyard with needle if I have to, but they're for threats that hit the board already. If anything I'd maybe consider jailor for extirpate, but I think extirpate might make more sense because it has a wider use--I don't think the 2 damage tempo from this one creature would help much.

[Mordenkaynen]

Heh, it seems to me that non-combo B decks can be divided in two groups: one plays Bob and other - TS)

Good work I would say. I'd suggest +1 polluted delta -1 badlands (sometimes one color is missed and two badlands are not useful).
Note: playing vs merfolks can be annoying (because of stifle, wastelands, ports), but I'm not sure if needles would fit the game. May be it's something to think about.

[FoolofaTook]

The main reason I don't like Pithing Needle in the deck is that it's a fairly limited card, albeit a powerful one, and you have no defense against somebody top-decking an answer and removing it.

My experience with BWR is that it needs to be always moving forward to have a chance to succeed. Otherwise it gets manhandled by control after the initial flurry settles down. Hide//Seek has the benefit of being an instant that the opponent has to make a decision on at the moment you cast it. Countering it when it's cast on their end of turn phase is a risky play and so it will succeed in burying the thing that is about to kill you a fairly large percentage of the time. Pithing Needle is just going to sit there until they draw a Krosan Grip, Wipe Away, Echoing Truth, Tin Street Hooligan, etc, and then it's going to go away and leave you naked in front of whatever it was suppressing.

The Jailors are not optimal, but unless you have an StP in hand Ichorid is an auto-lose for you as early as turn 1 given that your discard helps them and actually speeds up their tempo. Given that Jailors also increase your tempo against some decks they seem like a logical inclusion, at least in the sideboard.

The big question to ask yourself as you ponder your list is: how is this better than a mono-black or Bw aggro list with heavy discard integrated into the mix? You need to get something substantial for the inclusion of R in the list because you are definitely going to pay a price down the road for having few basics and a greater variability in the opening draw.

[Valtrix]

So, I went to the big Monster Den tournament this Saturday with this deck, and went 3-3. It wasn't a terrible showing, considering I never got to test this in a competitive environment, so I got some decent info. I played almost the same list, but a friend talked me into using The Racks, which I really don't like in here.

Land (21)
4x Bloodstained Mire
4x Windswept Heath
3x Scrubland
1x Godless Shrine
2x Badlands
1x Plateau
2x Swamp
1x Plains
3x Mishra's factory

Threats(13)
4x Dark Confidant
4x The Rack
2x Jotun Grunt
3x Storm world

Discard(15)
4x Gerard's Verdict
4x Hymn to tourach
4x Thoughtseize
3x Duress

Removal(11)
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Vindicate
3x Lightning helix

Board
4x Extirpate
4x Pyroclasm
3x Pithing needle
4x Abolish

Quick explantion:
Abolish: I ran this because I expected to go against Dragon Stompy. I also like the tech against counterbalance (which I played against in three decks), but the deck would really need more plains to support this.

Round 1 (Goblins)
Game 1: Vial turn 1, I thoughtseize a warren weirding (with a bob in hand) then he plays 2 more vials turn 2. I don't draw more discard or removal for that matter, gets a matron for ringleader, and can't go against the CA.

Game 2: Board in my pyroclasms. I get out a mishra's factory turn 2 to stop lackey. He plays a shirk prospector and a warchief, but still doesn't attack. I get some discard, which keeps him off some other goblins, but then lays down a goblin king and I draw no removal again.

0-1

Round 2 (Elves)
Play against a kind of bad elf deck. Game one I beat him through hymn/verdict, and him having none of his bigger threats.

Game 2: Bring in pyroclasms. I get some discard and pyroclasm in opening hand. Lays down fyndhorn, then priest of titania, and I pyroclasm both. Then lay down the rack, he lays down a champion. Plays another next turn, but a swords one. I draw another rack and he loses.

1-1

Round 3 (BG control)
Game 1: Not sure what to call it. Basically thresh without the geese, and only saw Bob and goyf as threats. He played countertop, but my discard keeps him off counters, a vindicate his balance, and have more removal than he has threats. WIn this game easily.

Game 2: Board in extirpate to remove threats. This game goes on forever, really back and forth. I kill a threat everytime he lays one, and he never takes much damage from the rack because he keeps bouncing top end of turn. Eventually I take him down with a lategame hymn, after getting rid of 3 goyfs and 2 bobs. The exirpates weren't super-useful, because I kept using swords on threats.

2-1

Round 4 (Painter combo)
Game 1: Thought I might be able to win this, but I get some form of bad draw and can't make him discard combo pieces (counters). Combos off quickly and wins.

Game 2: Board in exirpate, 2 abolish, and needles. Get stuck off a second land, even with 2 needles, he draws his 1x morphling and kills me with that.

2-2

Round 5 (Moon thresh)
Game 1: Discard, keep him off threats, eventually win

Game 2: Board in extirpate. Same thing, but I get him down to 1 life with a factory on board, then he topdecks three goyfs. I get no removal or helix in those turns, so he wins. That made me really mad.

Game 3: Gets some geese on the board, then blood moon. Able to resolve a grunt, but he drew 3 geese, and I couldn't beat that. Moon really hurt me here, and I realize I should have boarded in clasms.

2-3

Round 6 (Bad landstill)
Game 1: Has a slow deck, so I just make him discard pretty much everything via hymn/thoughtseize/verdict. Lay storm world down with a factory in play, and he folds.

Game 2: Board in needle. Pretty much the same thing, he was just too lazy to play, really.

3-3.

So, I want to do some more testing against more aggro-type decks. I think I have a pretty good matchup versus more control-type decks, because I usually get rid of their control before I lay my threats, but it's hard to tell from the few games. I have a hard time dealing with goyf/geese if they have counterspells to back that up though. In general I think I just need some more testing, but the deck's not terrible.

I'll definitely take the racks out for more threat space, I'm thinking some kind of creature. I kind of want to take out the mishra's factories too, and then have 2x Jitte and 6x some creatures. I don't know what creatures specifically to use yet though. Thought of spectral lynx, hippie, descendant of kiyomaro, oona's prowler, goblin legionairre. Thinking I need to find something with a decent attack, but also a secondary purpose. I'd maybe want to check my manabase then to see if I could support Volrath's Stronghold.

Also, want to exchange helix for lightning bolt, because I realized that the 3 life really isn't going to make a difference much (Plus, I'll get a slight boost against magus of the moon/LD). Possibly want to cut 1x duress for 1x lightning bolt, so that having 4 actually means they can help me win faster. Considering if smother might work better than swords. Wouldn't need to rely so much on white, the life gain they get is actually sometimes hard for me to makeup, and everytime I wanted to use exirpate, their creatures were usually RFG. Also, I like having more cards in graveyard for grunt.

Some other thoughts: Having 8 discard 2 on top of 7 choice discard was very useful in getting rid of a lot of my opponent's good cards. Also, I loved to see Grunt everytime I drew him.

[Valtrix]

So, as I've been working around this same sort of skeleton, I decided that white wasn't really doing it for me. I really liked all of the white cards, but I felt like I wasn't really getting anything that powerful from them. After playing some more games on workstation I decided that I wanted to make red a bit more prominent, namely more burn. That way I actually get to take advantage of my removal also being direct damage, which is half the reason I wanted it in the first place. I also was looking for a better way to win. Grunt seemed good, but somewhat limited use, and what I had just wasn't super-fast. So, of course I looked to green, because goyf and discard is simply amazing together. After some toying around this is what I have come up with:

// Lands
4 [AQ] Mishra's Factory
4 [U] Swamp
3 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
3 [R] Bayou
4 [R] Badlands

// Creatures
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf

// Spells
2 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [LG] Chain Lightning
4 [A] Lightning Bolt
3 [LG] Storm World
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
4 [MR] Wrench Mind
2 [US] Duress
4 [TE] Diabolic Edict
4 [FE] Hymn to Tourach (3)

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 4 [9E] Pyroclasm
SB: 3 [10E] Pithing Needle
SB: 4 [PLC] Extirpate

Quick explanations:
Mishra's factory: Just a good card, but I chose this to help win because it lets me cast a lot of my good 2cc cards more reliably (And grip in the board)

Diabolic edict: I knew 8 removal was not enough, and black seemed the best way to do this. With how prevalent thresh is, I decided that edict would be the best choice so that I could still get rid of geese.

Sensei's Top: This was a somewhat afterthough addition, but after playing with it, I really like it. I only run 2 because everytime I draw it, it's useful. In this deck I never want to have something that becomes a dead draw. It also has a little synergy with my 6 fetches and bob. Most importantly it lets me not loose as much steam when games enter topdeck mode.

So that's where I'm at right now. I have 17 color lands, 15 "threats" (Bob, goyf, factory, storm world), 12 removal (8 double as burn), and 14 discard. I've thought quite a bit about how I want this deck to work, and I want it to be as strong as possible. As such I'm undedided if I really need so much discard, mostly because I can't tell if storm world is worth it. I dearly love the card, and it provides a somewhat different way to win, but I wonder if I might be able to find better things to put in. I don't know if I need to be more focused and have creature/burn be my win, or if it's okay to add storm world on top of that. I've considered cutting one wrench mind (WHich I'm undecided about usefulness on too) for a swamp, and possibly a badlands/bayou for another basic.

Thoughts?