[Deck] Aggro Coffers

[Clark Kant]

How is this deck different from traditional MBC and Train Wreck?

Yes, the deck plays disruption (what black based deck doesn't) and abuses Coffers, but that's where the similarities to these imho outdated decks end. This deck doesn't aim to control the board. It aims to stomp over it.

You see, MBC and Train Wreck were built around playing almost no creatures and lots of sweepers. This is in part because mono black until fairly recently had access to very few decent fat creatures. Even a few years ago, Juzam Djinn was considered one of black's best fatties. Traditional Train Wreck had to resort to the now subpar Helldozer as a finisher. But in recent sets, Wizards printed a number of great black fat just starving to abuse Coffers. All with either regeneration or a cc high enough to get around Deed. Why worry so much about opposing creatures when you can play so many that just straight up outclass them? Plus deed gives you a way to take out opposing creatures without hurting your own.

[Deck] Train Wreck Revamped

4 Bayou
4 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Cabal Coffers
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Volrath's Stronghold

4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Duress
2 Thoughtseize
2 Chainer's Edict
2 Smother
2 Profane Command

4 Pernicious Deed
3 Phyrexian Arena
2 Staff of Domination

4 Korlash, Heir of Blackblade
4 Shriekmaw
2 Liliana Vess
2 Tombstalker
2 Oona, Queen of the Fae

Other considerations and why they were rejected...

//Mana
2 Swamp More - Seems needed, but what to cut?
4 Dark Ritual - Turn one Arena is drool worthy to ensure that you don't miss land drops, but there's sadly no room.

//Disruption
2 Silent Arbiter - No room.
2 Smother - No room.
2 Chainer's Edict - No room.
4 Diabolic Edict - Better alternatives.
4 Ghastly Demise - No room.
4 Powder Keg - Deed is faster and more versatile.
4 More Sweepers (Damnation, Disk, Oblivion Stone) - Not synergic with your finishers.
4 Chalice of the Void - Requires that I cut Duress/Thoughtseize. May be worthwhile in some metas.
4 Beseech the Queen - Not better than what would have to be cut to make room for it.
4 Infest - Doesn't kill Goyf.
4 Culling Scales - Seemed Underpowered.
4 Hypnotic Specter - No room.

//Finishers
4 Demigod of Revenge - What to cut?
4 Nantuko Shade - Left off because you almost always have better things to do with your mana than pumping a 2/1.
4 Visara, the Dreadful - Seemed underpowered.
2 Ghastlord of Fugue - Probably outshinized by your other finishers.
2 Helldozer - Outshinized by your other finishers in testing.
2 Magus of the Coffers - Too slow.
2 Haunting Echoes - Probably outshinized by your other finishers.

Any and all input is welcome. The deck is still very much developmental.

A question I have is in regards to Helldozer. It was all the rage in Train Wreck back in the day. When I tried it, it didn't seem to impact as many decks. Is this because the meta evolved around Dragon Stompy? Or were the few games where I tried it just anomolies and the card in actuality is still exceptionally good and should be played? If so, what should I cut for it?

[GGoober]

Looks pretty solid, but shouldn't Nantuko Shade be an auto-include, for mono-black, plus coffers?

I would take out Volrath's Stronghold, and perhaps add wastelands and increase the Urborg count.

This seems like a mix of MBC + Suicide Black (more Suicide Black build in my opinion, but using Coffers)

[Clark Kant]

You would think. But in the very limited time I spent trying it here, I found myself always having something better to do with my mana. And there were too many other cards I wanted to be running.

I guess more testing with it is needed though. Who knows, maybe it'll find it's way back in.

What would you cut for it?

At this moment, Korlash, Heir to Blackblade seems to be weakest creature in the deck. It's not very big without Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth in play. It not evasive and doesn't disrupt like Hypnotic Specter and Ghastlord of Fugue do. It's a solid regenerating beatstick but is pretty vanilla. The best thing by far about it is it's Grandeur ability actually.

If I were to cut it though, I would rather play 2 Ghastlord of Fugue/Tombstalker and 2 Smother in it's place rather than playing Nantuko Shade.

[Agent J]

The deck looks kind of cool but I'm not sure if Cabal Coffers is really that awesome here. The only card(s) that can abuse it are Oona (and maybe Chainer's Edict. But maybe it looks just bad on paper...
Nevertheless I'll be interested in your future testings. At the moment I probably won't have much time to test it myself since I'm preparing for regionals and therefore playing mostly Standard but I'd like to know how this develops.

[Clark Kant]

I might go down to 3 Cabal Coffers but would never ever cut the card completely. Arena does draw you a lot of cards so playing multiple high cc spells/creatures the same turn is rather frequent with a Coffers on the board (for example both a Shriekmaw and Liliana Vess on the same turn). Often, doing that is just overkill though.

[irrelevant]

wouldn't you want something like corrupt or drain life to use coffers with. Even profane command could be a good option with all that mana.

[Clark Kant]

Why blow your mana on a one shot damage spell when you can use that mana to play a massive threat that deals damage repeatedly forcing them to have to find an answer or lose?

[Zach Tartell]

You got something better to do with that mana? Also, I'd drop Hippy (since it's awkward here) and Arenas for Staffs of Domination and something else creature controly, or maybe some Magi of the Coffers.

[Clark Kant]

Something better to do with the mana? You mean like casting Oona, and using any left over mana to play a crap ton of 1/1 flyers and deck them.

Or casting Liliana Vess and tutoring for a Oona with it?

Yeah, that seems better.

I would never drop Phyrexian Arena. It's so strong in this deck.

I play Hypnotic Specter because it's a great controllish disruptive creature for cheap, and the best way to use a turn one ritual.

But if others think I should drop it, I'll test something else instead.

What do you guys think of Hypnotic Specter here?

[Jak]

What do you guys think of Hypnotic Specter here?

Looks bad. The deck plays out slow, so adding Dark Ritual and Hypnotic Specter is not what you need. You want to disrupt early and build up your mana. There is no reason to try and cast Duress and Hymn first turn when you have nothing to back it up with.

I would go

-4 Hyppie
-4 Dark Ritual
-4 Phyrexian Arena

+2 Tombstalker
+4 Damnation
+3 Sensei's Divining Top
+3 Staff of Domination

This makes it more control, but you were weak aggro to begin with.

[Clark Kant]

Yes, the deck is a bit on the slow side. So your answer is to take out the only fast cards in the deck and thus make the deck even slower? :confused:

That's very counterintuitive.

Phyrexian Arena speeds up the deck significantly. It makes sure you don't miss any land drops and thus can ramp up your mana quickly.

Dark Ritual lets you do ridiculous things like play Phyrexian Arena on turn one, Oona, on turn three etc.

Hypnotic Specter is pretty fast disruption.

I may see a case for cutting Hypnotic Specter. But based on my playtime with the deck, there is no way you can convince to either Dark Ritual or Phyrexian Arena.

[Jak]

Yes, the deck is a bit on the slow side. So your answer is to take out the only fast cards in the deck and thus make the deck even slower? :confused:

That's very counterintuitive.

Phyrexian Arena speeds up the deck significantly. It makes sure you don't miss any land drops and thus can ramp up your mana quickly.

Dark Ritual lets you do ridiculous things like play Phyrexian Arena on turn one, Oona, on turn three etc.

Hypnotic Specter is pretty fast disruption.

I may see a case for cutting Hypnotic Specter. But based on my playtime with the deck, there is no way you can convince to either Dark Ritual or Phyrexian Arena.

Your deck opperates slowly. Adding Dark Ritual won't make your deck better or faster. It just eats up slots. Add some cards that give the deck some strength and resiliency. You can't expect to play Sui Black and control the game at the same time. Pick one strategy and make that strong.

[Moczoc]

Stronghold Overseer might be another Option as a fattie that uses Coffers. I imagine it wouldn't make a big difference if you play him or Oona. The only thing is that he can't block but is non-legendary.

[Clark Kant]

Oona not only can block, but can create a huge recurring army of chump blockers. That's very relevent in a format ruled by Tarmogoyf. It's a faster finisher too.

Also, I plan to throw in a singleton Haunting Echoes (can get it with Liliana Vess). Between that and Oona you an deck your opponents very quickly too.

That too is occasionally relevent if you're playing some weird Worship based combo deck or Life deck or something.

[GreenOne]

What about Demigod of Revenge ad Dusk Urchins?

[Clark Kant]

I'm not sure about Dusk Urchins. Not sure how good it will be.

But Demigod definately has potential. Totally forgot about that card.

What would you cut for it? Korlash perhaps?

[Roman Candle]

Yes, the deck is a bit on the slow side. So your answer is to take out the only fast cards in the deck and thus make the deck even slower? :confused:

That's very counterintuitive.

Phyrexian Arena speeds up the deck significantly. It makes sure you don't miss any land drops and thus can ramp up your mana quickly.

Dark Ritual lets you do ridiculous things like play Phyrexian Arena on turn one, Oona, on turn three etc.

Hypnotic Specter is pretty fast disruption.

I may see a case for cutting Hypnotic Specter. But based on my playtime with the deck, there is no way you can convince to either Dark Ritual or Phyrexian Arena.

The problem with Coffers is its a wasted land drop turns 1-3, and irrelevant turn 4. And then it can be Wasteland'ed. I think what Jak's saying, and I have to agree, is that Coffers is a slow card. You can't play slow lands with fast cards. If you want to use Coffers, you should try not to focus on speed and try more for a control approach.

[Clark Kant]

I've played MBC for a while now. And in my experience, it's a horrible idea to only run slow cards.

You guys want me to cut all the fast cards in the deck for slow high cc cards to abuse coffers.

Guess what. The second your opponent drops a Wasteland or a Blood Moon or a Back to Basics, you have to fold as you no longer have the mana to play most any of your cards.

There's no guarentee that you'll even draw coffers.

This is why it's a bad idea to cut a critical low cc card drawer like Phyrexian Arena for a slow one like Staff.

Like I already said, I am open to cutting Hypnotic Specter and probably will, and am open to replacing Dark Ritual with some other form of accleration. But Phyrexian Arena is too good not to play IMO.

[Clark Kant]

Sorry to double post, but I wanted to share my most recent tech for this deck.

Silent Arbiter

It's such a fantastic answer to weenie rushes, elves, goblins etc.

Suddenly, none of their creatures can damage you and you are still free to attack with whatever massive beatstick you have on your side of the board.

[Roman Candle]

You don't only run slow cards in MBC, but you can't play slow cards at all in aggro. Similarly, control's fast cards allow it to play until slow cards become relevant.

MBC commonly runs 4-8 Duress/Thoughtseize and 4 Hymn to Tourach, PLUS Damnation, Edicts, etc. These cards all slow the opponent's clock. Phyrexian Arena hurts a slow-as-frozen-mollasses deck like MBC... chances are, Arena will have dealt... I dunno... AT LEAST 8 damage to you before you can win. Now add that to whatever your opponent has to attack with.

You said your creatures outclass other decks' creatures... but Korlash can cry its eyes out, it'll never be Tarmogoyf. It can be bigger, sure... but slower, more cumbersome, and in a color that can't protect it. Goyf is probably the best blue creature around right now. :)

You can't try to outclass creatures like Nimble Mongoose or Goyf. They're faster and more efficient than anything you can try and play here. Instead, you need to focus on how to keep those creatures under control in a way that's not so easy to disrupt or just play around.

Now let's compare Phyrexian Arena to Staff of Domination.

Phyrexian Arena is slightly faster.

Phyrexian Arena knocks off 1 life each turn... this CAN and WILL be relevant.
Staff of Domination grants a LOT of life each turn.

Phyrexian Arena just stares blankly at Tarmogoyf. Staff of Domination is essentially a Pacifism for any popular creature right now that's not a certain Mongoose.

Phyrexian Arena grants 1 card each turn. Staff of Domination is mana-intensive at first, but can grant an incredibly large amount of cards late game.

I think that we can safely say that Staff of Domination has a far more dominating effect on the gamestate, but needs to wait til the late-game to do so. SO, the direction that should be taken is to play to the late game to ABUSE THE BETTER CARD, rather than play mediocre/clumsy cards like Hypnotic Specter or Korlash to try and support the WEAKER CARD... and do it in a way that still makes it seem worse than Staff of Domination.

If you wanna play an aggressive black deck, that's fine, and perfectly viable. But Coffers just makes the deck slower and more vulnerable.

EDIT: Also, Silent Arbiter doesn't seem that good against weenies. Goblins play Tin Street Hooligan, which can be tutored for with ease, and often burn, Elves see very limited competitive play and will probably have Wren's Run Vanquisher anyway, and any other matchup just laughs it off... it's also an awful dead draw. If you wanna handle weenie hordes, you're gonna have to go with Damnation.

[Iranon]

The deck is fairly slow for something wihout semi-sweepers. There are few enough commonly played enchantments we truly fear, so we might get away with Powder Keg. I would, however, rather speed this up.

I really want Nantuko Shade in this, in place of the expensive stuff. With the mana needed to cast stuff like Oona, you can pump Shades to be bigger than anything you are likely to face.

Sweepers don't seem to antisynergistic; you have many cards to strip away an opponent's hand, and your creatures tend to outclass others after a reset.

[Illissius]

The card was already mentioned, but didn't elicit any response: Profane Command is a good fit with both the 'Aggro' and the 'Coffers' halves of the deck.

[Melwis]

Maybe the right thing to do is to keep the deck more on the aggro side but with a very good late game in Coffers.

I agree with Illissius; Profane Command could probably do very well in the deck. In early/mid game it could easily help getting rid of small creatures on opponents side while getting a creature in the yard back for you and in late game it could be cast to drop opponents life with 8+ life.

But since we want to keep the deck a bit more on the aggro side I agree that Coffers isn't THAT important to draw for the deck and it was also mentioned (by Roman Candle I might add) that Coffers is infact a dead land draw until turn 4 where it is indeed irrelevant. I would probably drop Coffers down to 3 copies.

Iranon is probably right about Nantuko being just to good not to run. It will turn Dark Rituals (which tends to be a very crappy topdeck mid/late game) into Giant Growth's and with Coffers you could just buff Shade into crazy limits. It's mana cost is also quite easy for an early Profane Command to get up which is really nice.

Silent Arbiter is actually a bit interesting. If you played it coupled with Nantuko and Korlash you are most likely to have the biggest creature on the field (Shade being "potentially" the biggest) which is all you need.

Arena would be there to make sure we draw into lands (coupled with 4 Korlash's we should get them out pretty fast to).

A list is in order:

Summons(11):
--------------
4 Korlash, Heir to Blackblade
4 Nantuko Shade
3 Silent Arbiter

Instants(4):
-------------
4 Dark Ritual

Sorceries(16):
---------------
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Duress
2 Profane Command
2 Chainer's Edict
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Thougtseize

Enchantments(4):
-------------------
4 Phyrexian Arena

Lands(24):
------------
18 Swamps
3 Cabal Coffers
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Volrath's Stronghold

Put it together quite fast but I think it turned out well. No idea what to do with the last spot (lol). One more Arbiter is possible but i'm not sure you want to play it before you play one of your other threats so therefore I am hesitating on adding a 4th one. Anyways, tell me what you think about it all :)

PS: I am hoping this could turn into a nice deck actually because I haven't been able to tune MBC (the control version) into something I like so this is my new hope ;P

[Clark Kant]

I agree with most of your post.

Your theory seems dead on. I don't know how I feel about your threatbase though. You seem to be light on threats for an aggro deck.

At the very very least I would make room to play 4 Shriekmaw. It twos for one your opponent or if you recur it with a Profane Command lets you 3 for 1 your opponent!!!

Yeah Profane Command seems solid. Too bad it can't gain back life or it would be a 100% autoinclude.

[Thehunter820]

First of all what is it with you and mono bad decks, I'm sorry, Mono black. Its not a good idea, however the only things I can say is you should probably include tombstalker, and you could probably lower the land count one or two times.

[Clark Kant]

Yeah, I decided to throw in Tombstalker as a 2 of, as I have nothing better to do with my yard anyways.

There's nothing wrong with monoblack. Coffers is FUN. This is the developmental forum afterall.

[Iranon]

There is one thing wrong with monoblack + coffers imo, and that's not using the most obvious synergy available.

If we run threats like Tombstalker, Shriekmaw and Korlash, Pernicious Deed sounds really really good.

[Clark Kant]

Fantastic suggestion. Yeah, Deed seems solid.

You really motivated me to change up the decklist with that suggestion.

I updated my opening post to reflect this new direction.

Here's the new list...

4 Bayou
4 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Cabal Coffers
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Volrath's Stronghold

4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Chainer's Edict
2 Profane Command

4 Phyrexian Arena
4 Pernicious Deed

4 Korlash, Heir of Blackblade
4 Shriekmaw
2 Tombstalker
2 Liliana Vess
2 Oona, Queen of the Fae

Any suggestions?

[Melwis]

Fantastic suggestion. Yeah, Deed seems solid.

You really motivated me to change up the decklist with that suggestion.

I updated my opening post to reflect this new direction.

Here's the new list...

4 Bayou
4 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Cabal CoffersI
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Volrath's Stronghold

4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Chainer's Edict
2 Profane Command

4 Phyrexian Arena
4 Pernicious Deed

4 Korlash, Heir of Blackblade
4 Shriekmaw
2 Tombstalker
2 Liliana Vess
2 Oona, Queen of the Fae

Any suggestions?

We have been talking about the inclusion of Deed in the MBC thread recently. Mental was the one who suggested it and I like the fact that it makes Arena less dangerous. And then i'm not mentioning the other obvious killer things about it. It could probably work in this deck aswell. Korlash (cmc 4) is perhaps a bit fragile BUT, if we have enough mana we can just regenerate him after using Deed which justifies is mana cost (I think..).

8 fetches could hurt you pretty much. I'd say it's easily 2-4 life every game but if you're unlucky it could be 5+. With an Arena out AND Thoughtseize I don't think you will long enough to take advantage of Coffers..

I'd say the following changes should be made:

+1 Staff of Domination - (it can become just a wincon in itself but is important lifegain if nothing else so I really think 1 should be included.)

+2 Duress - Not as good as Thoughtseize if you don't care about the lifeloss but I say we do and I don't think it's alot more worse..

+2 Smother - I actually recommend Smother in this deck (unlike what I have in the MBC thread). I don't think you run enough "sacrifice"-removal to make sure you can get rid of the creatures you want so I think Smother adds some very versatility.

-1 Phyrexian Arena - While insane if you get it out in the early game, i'm aware of that. But you really do not want another one out and if you have 4, chances are you're just going to draw additional Arenas with the one in play while losing life every turn.

-2 Thoughtseize - To remove some lifeloss in the deck.

-2 Chainer's Edict - Read Smother.

If you have tested the deck and don't have any problem with the lifeloss I would be very, very surprised. But if that's the case I guess you don't have to listen to this :)

PS: If you have played around with the deck I would be glad to hear how you are doing with it compared to the MBC version (they are very different to eachother but they both feed on Coffers so I think you can compare them).

[Clark Kant]

Great post. All your changes seem solid. I'm going to adopt all of them.

About MBC vs this, I can't fairly compare both as I haven't played this deck enough to assess it vs MBC. But I do think all the broken creatures help.

[GenioDeArena]

Since the deck turned to adopt green, Why not running 1-3 crop rotation? It will really help getting the coffers/stronghold/urborg at instant speed, plus free´s up spece by removing one of each sayed cards. Maybe as a two of since it usually sucks early game but gets the deck going.
And as a useless sugestion, how about Dregs Of Sorrow? tergeted sweeper+draw cant be that bad, oh waith it costs a LOT to play, feels win more, but im just brainstorming here.

[Melwis]

Since the deck turned to adopt green, Why not running 1-3 crop rotation? It will really help getting the coffers/stronghold/urborg at instant speed, plus free´s up spece by removing one of each sayed cards. Maybe as a two of since it usually sucks early game but gets the deck going.
And as a useless sugestion, how about Dregs Of Sorrow? tergeted sweeper+draw cant be that bad, oh waith it costs a LOT to play, feels win more, but im just brainstorming here.

Actually you don't really want to see Coffers very soon. With 4 Coffers in the deck you will surely have 1 when you need it. I have even tried out a list using 3 Coffers because you really do not want it in your starting hand. The only thing that really scares me when I go down to 3 is Wasteland, which is why I run a 1-of Crucible in my deck with Coffers (that is an MBC list however).

And I am not impressed by Dregs Of Sorrow :)

So running cards that tutor for the land is imo not

[Clark Kant]

Melwis, I updated my opening post to reflect all three suggestions you made...

2 Duress
2 Smother
2 Staff of Domination

Hope you're pleased. :)

The question I have is in regards to Helldozer. It was all the rage in Train Wreck back in the day. When I tried it, it didn't seem to impact as many decks. Is this because the meta evolved around Dragon Stompy? Or were the few incidents where I tried it just anomolies and the card in actuality is exceptionally good and should be played?

[worsel]

What's in the sideboard, and are there really supposed to be 61 MD?

[Melwis]

I decided to try this deck out on MWS today and I am really liking it so far. The list I ran looked as follows:

// Lands
3 [TO] Cabal Coffers
2 [PLC] Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 [SH] Volrath's Stronghold
18 [ARE] Swamp (4)

// Creatures
4 [FUT] Korlash, Heir to Blackblade
4 [TO] Nantuko Shade
2 [MR] Solemn Simulacrum
2 [LRW] Shriekmaw

// Spells
2 [LRW] Profane Command
2 [TO] Chainer's Edict
2 [LRW] Thoughtseize
4 [A] Dark Ritual
4 [FE] Hymn to Tourach (3)
3 [AP] Phyrexian Arena
4 [US] Duress
1 [FD] Staff of Domination
2 [ON] Smother

The coolest thing with the deck so far is to see how fast it throws out lands. With 24 lands, Arena, Korlash and Solemn it's quite stupid actually.

Solemn Simulacrum is the latest tech and serves as nice land assurance + card draw. Also, I had Silent Arbiter in the list first as a 2-of and it was horrible in the matches I played with it so it got removed pretty quickly.

Has anyone else been testing the deck out and if so, how have you been doing? If anyone has some more card suggestions i'm all ears :)

[Clark Kant]

Solemn S is a really cool idea. Great suggestion. I'll try it out.

Have you tried out the green splash for Deed. It seems to be pretty strong.

You'll have to replace low cc stuff like Shade with finishers like Oona though. But atleast he flies and can create many many chumpblockers.

So Oona is great on both aggro and defense.

[evilchen]

if you want to play coffers in aggro style i would go for less disruption and more speed pressure like
adding
3-4 promise of power
4 nantuko shades like mentioned before by others
4 korlash
4 tombstalker also great evasion and low cast in mid/later games
2 herald of leshrac to do the rest(awesome with shades + urbog)
2 strongholds at least to abuse korlash even more
1/2 reiver demons ? ;D

i mean, you just play bad ass creatures over and over if he plays aggro himself his creatures will be most likely lower then yours and you win your race anyway, and playing more meat makes it harder to counter/handle anyway

[Clark Kant]

So does everyone feel that Nantuko Shade is an autoinclude in this deck?