[Deck] UB Solution

[DrewliusMaximus]

Recently, I have been thinking:
1. about how Echoing Truth is a great all-purpose card and is a bomb against token combos
2. about how Meekstone could be used optimally
3. and that I would like to try and build a deck without Tarmogoyf.

So, I am thinking about getting the cards to put something like this together:

4 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Underground Sea
1 Island
8 Swamp
4 Chrome Mox

4 Thoughtsieze
2 Cabal Therapy
4 Hymn to Tourach

4 Dark Confidant
4 Nantuko Shade
4 Hypnotic Specter

4 Echoing Truth
4 Trinket Mage

2 Jitte
1 Meekstone
1 Pithing Needle
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Sensei's Top
1 Tormod's Crypt

Card Selection:

Thoughtsieze is the best 1cc discard spell, and Jitte allows life to be regained.
Hymn is the best 2cc discard spell, and Chrome Mox allows it to be played 1st turn. Cabal Therapy can be a gamble, but it can work well with Echoing Truth, especially if you actually return multiple permanents (and I might not mind sac'ing a Trinket Mage to reuse it). Generally, the plan would be to apply early pressure with discard and slow the opponent with Echoing Truth (which works well with discard). Hypnotic Specter might not work well enough without Dark Ritual, but it can be a permanent way to apply continued pressure on the opponent's hand, and it is not affected by Meekstone.

Dark Confidant provides the card advantage and is not affected by Meekstone.

Nantuko Shade is potentially the "biggest" creature unaffected by Meekstone.

Trinket Mage allows the toolbox that includes Meekstone. Trinket Mage is also not affected by Meekstone.

Needle is an obvious choice, as is Engineered Explosives. The top is to help manage life-loss from Confidants, and for general card quality (combining with the shuffle effects of the fetch-lands). The Crypt is for specific match-ups, but having access to 1 MD could be important since this deck would feed an opponent's graveyard with discard.

Jitte turns every creature into a legitimate threat while keeping them unaffected by Meekstone. As mentioned before, it also regains life which might be relevant.

After applying early discard pressure, you can Mage for a Meekstone or other answer. Also, Shade or a creature with Jitte can potentially be the best threat on the board turn 3 or 4. Echoing Truth can combine with discard later in the game to be actual removal.


So, I am looking for feedback. While I am not trying to build the next "Deck to Beat", I do want it to be competitive. Is there any value in this idea? If so, what are some alternative card choices?

[Brushwagg]

Your playing Blue for Trinket Mage and Echoing Truth? Both of those cards really aren't worth the splash for. Where the hell is Brainstorm??

Here's something off the top of my head.

4x Polluted Delta
4x Wasteland/4x Bloodstained Mire
4x Underground
4x Swamp
3x Island

4x Dark Confidant
4x Hippie
1x Tombstalker
3x Shade???

4x Brainstorm
2x Top
4x Thoughtseize
2x Hymn

4x Stifle
4x Counterspell/Daze/Remand/Mana Leak
2x Echoing Truth
4x Smother
2x E.E

@Stifle:Good tempo card in stopping early fetches. Also good in the Storm combo match.

@Wasteland: Again nice tempo card. With all the Non-basics running around.

@Shade:That probably shouldn't be Shade, but I couldn't think of any other creature to put there. There is Sea Drake($$) or Sernidib (life loss).

@Counter lot:You really need something to compliment the discard. I've seen to many games lost because of top decks. Personally I'd go with counterspell since it's the most useful late game.

Meekstone as a 1 of seemed weak to me and you had to go out and have to find it with a 3cc creature.

[DrewliusMaximus]

Thanks for the feedback. I have 2 questions:

1. Where you have 3 questionable slots for Shade, what about Hunted Horror (maybe 2 Hunted Horror and 1 more Echoing Truth)? With Stifles, EE's, and bounce it might not be difficult to handle Hunted Horror's drawback.

2. With the Brainstorms, would you not advise using another 2 Hymns? The reason I ask is that Brainstorm would allow you to shuffle unnecessary (later game) discard back into the library with fetch lands.

[Roman Candle]

Your playing Blue for Trinket Mage and Echoing Truth? Both of those cards really aren't worth the splash for. Where the hell is Brainstorm??

Here's something off the top of my head.

4x Polluted Delta
4x Wasteland/4x Bloodstained Mire
4x Underground
4x Swamp
3x Island

4x Dark Confidant
4x Hippie
1x Tombstalker
3x Shade???

4x Brainstorm
2x Top
4x Thoughtseize
2x Hymn

4x Stifle
4x Counterspell/Daze/Remand/Mana Leak
2x Echoing Truth
4x Smother
2x E.E

@Stifle:Good tempo card in stopping early fetches. Also good in the Storm combo match.

@Wasteland: Again nice tempo card. With all the Non-basics running around.

@Shade:That probably shouldn't be Shade, but I couldn't think of any other creature to put there. There is Sea Drake($$) or Sernidib (life loss).

@Counter lot:You really need something to compliment the discard. I've seen to many games lost because of top decks. Personally I'd go with counterspell since it's the most useful late game.

Meekstone as a 1 of seemed weak to me and you had to go out and have to find it with a 3cc creature.

I actually think that the Trinket Mage engine should definitely stay, but it should be complimented with Counterbalance. SDT+CB is hardcore tech against decks that cast spells.

Meekstone is pretty cool here IMO... it turns off Threshold's entire creature base if it manages to resolve.

You could also go the Dreadnought route, although that's pretty cut-and-dry.

I'll come back with a couple of untested decklists when I have more time.

[raharu]

This reminds me of an older deck called Countertop Solution. It didn't run bounce, it was a Ubw agro-control deck with a Trinket Mage engine, Countertop, some Meddling Mages in a few shells, and was all around sexy.

In regards to this deck, I must ask: where are Brainstorm, FoW, Counterbalance, Sensei's Divining Top, and all the other good reasons to run blue? It would be a good idea to run Stifle to accent your tempo plan, as previously stated, and from there it's a really small jump to running the Phyreaxian Dreadnought 'combo'.

[Brushwagg]

1. Where you have 3 questionable slots for Shade, what about Hunted Horror (maybe 2 Hunted Horror and 1 more Echoing Truth)? With Stifles, EE's, and bounce it might not be difficult to handle Hunted Horror's drawback.

Horror is alright I guess. I'm really sick of hearing about Dreadnaught though. It dies to shatter and is really over played IMO.


2. With the Brainstorms, would you not advise using another 2 Hymns? The reason I ask is that Brainstorm would allow you to shuffle unnecessary (later game) discard back into the library with fetch lands.


The problem with too much discard is it's get crappier as the game goes on. Hymn is awesome to open up with but if you have your opponent in Hippie lock that's the last card you want to see. So I think 2 is ok but no more then 3.

[DrewliusMaximus]

Aside from Roman Candle, am I the only one who sees value in Meekstone? I may not have suggested the best way to use it, but it seems like a good thing to include with a Trinket Mage engine.

[Roman Candle]

I actually really like Meekstone with Trinket Mage. It really can give Thresh headaches until they find a Krosan Grip or whatever. But it won't play nicely in a Dreadnaught version.

And about Dreadnaught, I'm not a big supporter of it either. But it's there, and it's had success. It dies to Shatter, but decks that pack it usually pack disruption.

[lavafrogg]

Oh shit its Christopher Walken-"This deck needs more meekstone"

If you are trying to build a deck around meekstome then why not build a deck aroung meekstone. Seeing how is hoses every aggro deck not named goblins it sounds like a good card.
Include a way to beat the little green(red) men, plauge, and a good way to beat the fish mirror, shade, and you might have yourself a little metagoyf deck there.

[DrewliusMaximus]

Well lavafrogg, the deck could be called Cowbell.

What about something like this?:

4 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Underground Sea
3 Island
4 Swamp

4 Brainstorm
4 Stifle
3 Trinket Mage
2 Echoing Truth
3 Counterbalance

4 Thoughtsieze
2 Hymn
3 Midnight Charm

4 Dark Confidant
4 Shade
4 Hippie

2 Meekstone
1 Top
1 EE

[Roman Candle]

Midnight Charm...?

Also, play more than one top with CB.

[DrewliusMaximus]

@ Midnight Charm - Yeah, I thought I'd throw something different out there.

OK so 2 Tops.

If the 3 Charms are removed and 1 more Top is added, that leaves two slots. Suggestions?

Should there be 4 Trinket Mages?
What about 1 Cursed Scroll?

[Roman Candle]

You should probably play 3 Tops. I think Hymn, Hyppie, and Shade should also get the boot in favor of better threats... maybe Serendib Efreet? And I would try to play more blue so you can play FoW. It really is that good.

[DrewliusMaximus]

Wouldn't you want threats that are unaffected by Meekstone?

[Roman Candle]

Right, Meekstone, my bad. Even so, I think Hyppie and Shade seem pretty subpar. Meloku I think definitely deserves a spot as maybe a 2-of, because it's unaffected by Meekstone and it flips off of CB to counter FoW. I guess Shade can stay, but Hyppie is just too slow.

[Brushwagg]

I'm really having a hard time on the Meekstone thing. In order to get the full effect I almost think you want to have your opponent's stuff come into play tapped. But Frozen Aether(is that the blue Kismet???) seems really bad.

@Shade: As it was said before it's probably the "biggest" two drop that isn't effected by Meekstone.

@Hippie:I really don't see anything wrong with Hippie. You can lock your opponent out with it and CB now.

@Mana Base: I think you might want to switch the Mires for Wastelands or Mishras. Both give you a boost in differt ways. Might look into either.

[Roman Candle]

Hyppie doesn't swing til turn 4, and when/IF he ever gets to, its for two... but the opponent will probably have StP/ something anyway. On the draw, he's even worse...

If you're playing with Dark Rit, Hyppie is an auto-include. But, I would never even consider it without Rit or even Chrome Mox or something.

I just figured Shade was kinda mana-intensive... I dunno. It probably works, I'm just not a huge fan of the card in general.

[Brushwagg]

Don't worry I'm not a huge fan of Hippie either. But I would like to see this deck as more of a tempo deck where Hippie would become even better.

4x Delta
4x Wasteland
4x Underground
4x Swamp
3x Isalnd

4x Bob
4x Shade
4x Hippie or 2x Hippie/2x Fulminator Mage

4x Stifle
4x Thoughtseize
2x Hymn
3x Counterbalance
3x Top

4x Brainstorm
4x Smother
2x Extirpate
2x Echoing Truth
1x E.E.

[DrewliusMaximus]

I like that list. What about Shriekmaw? You could replace 2 Smothers with Shreikmaw, or possibly use them instead of the Fulminator Mages...although I like the idea of the Mages.

[Roman Candle]

I'd actually drop all the Hyppies and go with Fulminator Mage x4 and then play 4 Daze over Hymn and Echoing Truth, both of which seem pretty random.

Shriekmaw could go in over Smother, it really depends on your meta.

[Brushwagg]

However Smother does 2 damage with Bob and Shriekmaw does 5.

@List: Just throwing things out there. I like the idea of cutting all Hippies too.

If your worried about larger creatures being played you could always side stuff like Diabolic Edict, Tombstalker, Control Magic/Shackels/Threads of Disloyalty.

[Roman Candle]

If your worried about larger creatures being played you could always side stuff like Diabolic Edict, Tombstalker, Control Magic/Shackels/Threads of Disloyalty.

Threads of Disloyalty isn't very good against larger creatures. :)

And as for Shriekmaw vs. Smother... hopefully you can keep Bob under control with SDT... but yeah, I think Smother or Edict are probably better, simply because Shriekmaw is terrible with Meekstone.

I still think Meloku warrants a spot as a 2-of.

[DrewliusMaximus]

The last list didn't have Meekstone, so Shriekmaw would untap. Although it would suck to have Bob deal you 5 damage, I figure that 2 could be managed with 4 Brainstorms and 3 Tops.

The other thing is that if you kept Echoing Truth, you could potentially reuse Shriekmaw. I don't know how often that would actually happen, but it seems like fun.

We know Daze is a ridiculous tempo card, but the kinda random 2 Echoing Truth and 2 Hymns could work. Daze is only usable early, while Echoing Truth is usable at any time. Hymn is usually only good early, but it could combine with the Echoing Truth later to be removal, and Brainstorms, Tops and fetchlands can keep it out of your hand later as well.

[Benie Bederios]

Don't worry I'm not a huge fan of Hippie either. But I would like to see this deck as more of a tempo deck where Hippie would become even better.

4x Delta
4x Wasteland
4x Underground
4x Swamp
3x Isalnd

4x Bob
4x Shade
4x Hippie or 2x Hippie/2x Fulminator Mage

4x Stifle
4x Thoughtseize
2x Hymn
3x Counterbalance
3x Top

4x Brainstorm
4x Smother
2x Extirpate
2x Echoing Truth
1x E.E.

Quite intresting... 7 lands that don't give black mana with Nantuko Shade seems quite low. In fact only 8 black producing lands. Without Dark Ritual nantuko Shade won't grow that much.

I do agree with Hypnotic Specter. It's bad without Dark Ritual. It's so slow. Sui-Blackish decks use a full amount of disruption: 4 Seize/Duress, 4 Hymn, 4 Sinkhole, 4 Wasteland and Dark Ritual to take advantage of Hippy.

I'm also quite sceptical about Counter/Top in this deck... It is powerfull, but I doubt it's MD sruff especially with all the discard. I haven't tested it though, so I might be wrong.

The 1-off EE seems random too, but it gives you 3 outs against goblin/zombie tokens G1, so it could work.

On another note has anybody looked at Dimir Infiltrator? I saw it in that Vile Horror deck, and it looks like a solid card. You could play one-off's like Umezawa's Jitte and Powder Keg, and tutor for them. It can also find Dark Confidant/Smother/Hymn to Tourach.

Could it work or is it to slow. Anyway I like the archtype.

BB

[DrewliusMaximus]

Even though Shade isn't going to get as big in this deck as he does in others, he's still a pretty potent threat at 2cc. Its a good point however. Maybe there could be 3x Shades?

Why skeptical about the Counter/Top? It seems like backing up early game discard/Stifling with perma-countering later in the game would work out well. If it does work, it might be another good reason to drop the Hippies though. You wouldn't need a Hippie-lock if the Counter/Top was online.

Here's another possible variant:

4 Delta
4 Underground
4 Wasteland
4 Swamp
3 Island

4 Bob
3 Shade
4 Fulminator
2 Shriekmaw

4 Stifle
4 Thoughtsieze
2 Hymn
3 Counterbalance
3 Top

4 Brainstorm
3 Smother
2 Extirpate
2 Echoing Truth
2 EE

[Brushwagg]

I think I setteled on the list I'm going to test. This one and the other deck I'm trying to get going should keep me busy for a bit. Here's the list I'm looking at.

4x Delta
4x Wasteland
4x Underground
4x Swamp
3x Island

3x Bob
4x Shade/something else probably, not sure as to what
4x Fulminator Mage
2x Tombstalker

4x Brainstorm
4x Thoughtseize
3x Counterbalance
2x Top

4x Smother
2x Extirpate
2x Hymn
2x Engineered Explosives
1x Echoing Truth
4x Stifle

SB:
3x Engineered Plague
3x Perish
3x Wipe Away
1x Extirpate
3x Leyline/Tormod's Crypt
2x Shreikmaw/Cabal Therapy?

@Tombstalker:Ya I know he flips for 8 on Bob, but I think this deck really needs a way to end games faster then 2 powers swinging.

@Daze:I know it's not in my list but I want to squeeze 1 or 2 in there to mess with the other players head. Make them play around Daze but not draw them all the time. Something to look into to.

@Counterbalance/Top: This is so good to get on line in so many matches.

[DrewliusMaximus]

Right after posting the list with Shriekmaw, I started thinking about 2 Tombstalkers in that position. I think it'll probably be a good call Brushwagg. Are you dropping down to 3 Confidants because of the Tombstalker?

One other creature I've thought about is Man-o-war (1 or 2 of them). I still think Shade can work here, but there probably shouldn't be 4 of them, so maybe Man-o-war could fill in a couple of those slots.

[Brushwagg]

@Dark Confidant:IMO 3 is the right number. You able to draw/see him in opening hands and usally they're not together. What I mean is I want him in play just not more then 1 in play at a time.

@Smother vs. Shriekmaw: I went with Smother for 2 reasons.

1. Smother is instant speed.

2. Smother can target black creatures.

[DrewliusMaximus]

Brushwagg, I think Smother is the right call, especially since you're running the Tombstalkers. I don't think you want to put too many high cc cards in there with Confidant.

With Tombstalker I was also thinking that 2 of the Underground Seas should be Bloodstained Mires. This should possibly be the case anyway as the shuffling effects work so well with Top, but also to put a few extra cards in your graveyard to help cast the big flyer.

Any ideas about other creatures besides Shade?

[Roman Candle]

Shade's probably kinda unimportant in that list, as the whole point of him was for Meekstone.

Also, 2 Hymn just seems so random... and I've never liked Extirpates mained.

Also, 3 CB with only 2 Tops and no way to tutor it is probably gonna be a hassle... I'd rather see a Sensei's without Balance than the other way around.

I would go---

-4 Shade
-2 Hymn
-2 Extirpate
-1 Echoing Truth
-1 Smother
-4 Thoughtseize (no room...)
-2 EE (again, see above... and with what I'm adding, this is less important)

+4 Sinkhole
+3 Daze
+1 Tombstalker
+1 SDT
+4 FoW
+3 Cursecatcher

Now you have a more dedicated mana-denial strategy that should give Landstill and Thresh fits...

The extra Tombstalkers are totally worth it IMO becuase you need to establish a clock once you oppress the opponent's manabase.

The Cursecatchers are probably really bad, bu the deck needs threats, and this one is better than most black ones, just cuz it can pitch to FoW.

Speaking of which... definitely important here. :)

Also, you could try splashing white for Meddling Mage and building around Sage of Fables for fun.

I don't think the Trinket Mage engine with Meekstone should be abandoned completely, but there really is no room in that last list.

And Man-O-War isn't very good in this format... it costs more than Goyf, it can't even bounce Mongoose, and it can't do anything against Landstill.

There's also the possibility of spashing for Goyf... the deck needs threats, and this guy is definitely one.

[DrewliusMaximus]

I agree that a 3rd SDT should be there. This is probably extra important to prevent Tombstakers from dealing 8 damage to you.

Roman Candle, the mana obliteration strategy does sound pretty sweet. But the overall resource denial you get the other way, with discard, could work also. I hope I can test a little this weekend.

[Brushwagg]

@Roman:I really don't like the way that list would go. If you want to test by all means go on ahead.

@Another Color: That weakens the mana base and you really have to cut Wasteland. If you add White then just play UWB fish and if you add Green then then just play Gro. I think the whole point here is to see if this deck can compete with the Fish/Gro/ etc.

@Shade spot:I currently looking at replacements for it. I would like a flyer but haven't come up with anything yet other then Serendib (Seadrake if I wanted to spend the money but I don't).

[DrewliusMaximus]

Here's an idea for a Shade replacement: Oona's Prowler. 2cc, flying, and it has slight synergy with discard, and you could even Stifle its ability. I'm assuming that whatever creature fills this position, it needs to be 3cc or lower. I still need to get some cards to replace proxies in this deck, but I do have Drakes, so I'll test them too.

I was thinking about trying 4 Counterbalance because it's so good. If I see multiples, I can put them back into the library with Brainstorm, and as long as I get one to stick, it almost doesn't matter. Is that overkill for this deck?

Brushwagg, what do you think about replacing 2 of the Underground Sea with Bloodstained Mire to help out the Tombstalker cause?

[Brushwagg]

No you want to keep the Undergrounds at 4 just in case. I'm not really worried about feeding Tombstalker. The graveyard should fill up fast enough.


I'm assuming that whatever creature fills this position, it needs to be 3cc or lower.

I was thinking along the same lines. Did a search and didn't really come up with anything all that great in the flying department. I'm going to keep looking.


I was thinking about trying 4 Counterbalance because it's so good. If I see multiples, I can put them back into the library with Brainstorm, and as long as I get one to stick, it almost doesn't matter. Is that overkill for this deck?

I think 3 is right. But if you want to test 4 go ahead and let me know how it goes. I do need to get the 3rd Top into my list somewhere though.

[DrewliusMaximus]

Are you pretty set on the MD Extirpates? If not, you could use one of those slots for the 3rd Top.

I'm going to test this (hopefully this weekend):

4 Delta
4 Underground
4 Wastelands
4 Swamp
3 Island

4 Brainstorm
4 Stifle
4 Counterbalance
2 Echoing Truth

4 Thoughtsieze
2 Hymn
4 Smother

3 Bob
4 Oona's Prowler/Sea Drake/Hunted Horror/Shade (or combination thereof)
4 Fulminator Mage
2 Tombstalker

3 Top
1 EE

[Brushwagg]

@Extirpate:Not sure if I'm set on them, but they are good at taking out Fetchlands/non-basics that were destroyed, Threats that were counterd or discarded, and stuff like FOW etc... it's worth the testing.

[DrewliusMaximus]

Well, I just got back from draft night, and none of the Legacy players were at the shop, so I didn't get any real testing done (damnit!). I did pick up 2 Beseech the Queens late in the draft though for the hell of it. It made me think about using Beseech the Queen as a tutor engine to find Counterbalance, and maybe Meekstone (yeah, I'm bringing that up again). It seems like Beseech the Queen would be a good tutor for cheaper cc lock pieces/answers (like Counterbalance, Meekstone, EE, Pithing Needle or other stuff), especially with Dark Ritual, so you could tutor for a card and play it in the same turn. If there were consistent Legacy play around here, it would be alot easier to explore these ideas with actual testing.

Brushwagg, I hope you're able to get some testing done man. Let me know how the Extirpates work out.

[Brushwagg]

Haven't got to testing yet (weekend was busy as hell). But I did find an interesting card for the Shade in Dusk Urchins Worth testing out?

[Nihil Credo]

Beseech the Queen is possibly at its worst in a deck with Dark Confidant (take six) and Counterbalance (useless).

[DrewliusMaximus]

I know Beseech the Queen would be potentially dangerous with Confidant and pretty much useless with Counterbalance, but wouldn't 4 Brainstorm and 3 Top be able to manage Beseech in those cases?

Also, I need to clarify: I am NOT suggesting Beseech for builds like the ones most recently discussed on this thread (they would lose too much tempo). I was wondering if it could be used effectively to access cheaper bombs like Counterbalance in a different sort of build. Something that would still use 4 Brainstorms and 3 Tops but possibly not Confidant, and something that might also use Dark Ritual, so that you could tutor for stuff and play it on the same turn.

Brushwagg, Dusk Urchins is an interesting idea. Rather than starting weak and getting stronger (like Shade), it's the opposite. If it works, it could mean alot of card advantage.

[DrewliusMaximus]

Sorry for double-posting. I hope the 2 to 5 people who read this thread won't mind. To follow up the brief discussion about using Beseech the Queen in a UB deck with Counterbalance, here's a sample list:

4 Delta
2 Mire
4 Wasteland
4 Underground
1 Island
3 Swamp
1 Volrath's Stronghold

4 Dark Ritual
4 Thoughtsieze
4 Hymn
4 Hippie
4 Smother
4 Dusk Urchin/Shriekmaw/Fulminator Mage
3 Beseech the Queen

4 Brainstorm
1 Echoing Truth

2 Counterbalance
3 Top

1 Jitte
1 Needle
1 EE
1 Rack

[Benie Bederios]

I was personally impressed by another tutor: Shadowmage Infiltrator. There is quite alot on the 2 mana CC that might be wort tutoring. At worst it's a 1/3 unblockable.

Here is the list I'm testing



3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
2 Swamp
3 Island
4 Wasteland
4 Underground Sea

4 Dark Confidant
3 Dimir Infiltrator
4 Oona's Prowler
4 Dimir Cutpurse

4 Stifle
4 Brainstorm
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Echoing Truth
4 Smother
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Thoughtseize


Mind you I haven't tested alot but the first results aren't bad. I chose a more blue-based control. I started with adding Infiltrator, Brainstorm and Stifle. After that I noticed I already had enough blue for Force of Will, so I went further in that direction with Daze.

Oona's Prowler took the place of Nantuko Shade. Not sure on it, but it is quite a fast evasive creature and I havent had an opponent who could take advantage of it( iow no Reanimator/Madness/Ichorid). With 6 non black lands I wouldnt play Nantuko Shade.

Dimir Cutpurse took the place of Hippy. I will cut it to less if I found another option. No Evasion is quite weak, but if it hits a single time it's quite some advantage.

At the moment the Tutor package is very small( 1 Jitte against burn, 1 Echoing Truth against random) but I could add more bombs in the SB. Anyway what do you think about this build.

BB

[DrewliusMaximus]

That's an interesting list BB. The Infiltrator idea could also work with Counterbalance, but then you'd have to fit the Tops in there.

When you tested, did the mana-tempo loss from Daze cause any issues?

I'm someone who tries Chrome Moxes too frequently, but I can't help but wonder about it in your build. If the Cutpurse works, then you should get more than enough card advantage from him and Bob to compensate for the disadvantage from Mox and FOW. I like the idea of 1st turn Bob with Daze protection, or a 1st turn Brainstorm that can find a 1st turn Thoughtsieze or Stifle. And it would definitely help the tempo-loss from Dazing and tutoring. Maybe I'm too obsessed with fast mana though.

I know this is a different direction, but something I thought of using with Beseech the Queens is the Painter's Servant/Grindstone thing. If you had a blue-based build with both Infiltrators and Trinket Mages, those could fit in there. Sorry for the "latest cool combo" tangent, but I had to say it.

Back to your build BB, what are some decks you've tested against?

[Benie Bederios]

That's an interesting list BB. The Infiltrator idea could also work with Counterbalance, but then you'd have to fit the Tops in there.

When you tested, did the mana-tempo loss from Daze cause any issues?

I'm someone who tries Chrome Moxes too frequently, but I can't help but wonder about it in your build. If the Cutpurse works, then you should get more than enough card advantage from him and Bob to compensate for the disadvantage from Mox and FOW. I like the idea of 1st turn Bob with Daze protection, or a 1st turn Brainstorm that can find a 1st turn Thoughtsieze or Stifle. And it would definitely help the tempo-loss from Dazing and tutoring. Maybe I'm too obsessed with fast mana though.

I know this is a different direction, but something I thought of using with Beseech the Queens is the Painter's Servant/Grindstone thing. If you had a blue-based build with both Infiltrators and Trinket Mages, those could fit in there. Sorry for the "latest cool combo" tangent, but I had to say it.

Back to your build BB, what are some decks you've tested against?

I tested agains MUC, Landstill, Demon Stompy and Ugb Thresh and Reanimator. Against Landstill I could win. I had a little badluck with a Back to Basic, but Daze( to return an Underground Sea) and a Brainstorm got my back on track.

Landstill was kinda though, and he drew bad I suppose. I think it was with Dreadnought, but haven't seen him play it. I had a little trouble with connecting Cutpurse, but when it did, he couldn't do anything about with 2 Counterbalance on the table and a Sensei's Divining Top.

Demon Stompy is hard. But I played enough Basics to not care to much about Blood Moon. Chalice/Trinisphere are hosers and I didn't had much answers. Hurkyl's Recall in the board could stop those cards though.

Ugb Thresh was hopeless. Goyf>>>>Oona's Prowler. Cutpurse couldn't connect. I got my Jitte, but it didn't help.

Reanimator was weird. One game he beat my to one life and I could deal with his creature( Infiltrator -> Echoing Truth) He started topdecking lands and Big creatures but no reanimator spells. Other games where more in my advantage. Only I couldn't use my Prowlers.

Daze wasn't a real problem. With Stifle/Wasteland in here, I could slow down an opponent so long that Daze stays good until turn 5 or so. Daze is nice to protect Cutpurse and Confidant if you force them out fast.

I don't like Counterbalance in a deck like this. I only use Brainstorm as cantrip, so am almost forced to play 3 Balance/4 Top or something( Infiltrator -> Counterbalance is to slow). It might be a sideboard option. But I think it's stronger to use Trinket Mage Toolbox then.

I totally forgot about Chrome Mox, I'm testing 3 now instead of 3 lands. It looks sexy if you can play turn 1 Confidants. Don't know what to cut for the fourth Mox though.

I don't like the Painter Grindstone thing. I think alot of people forget that it costs 6 mana total. It takes quite some time to assemble the combo and we cant take advantage of it. Be my guest to try it though.

I'm going to test some more( and better, I only played 2 or 3 games against the different decks, so don't start flaming, I don't claim this deck has a possitive matchup against any of the decks) and let you guys now.

BB

[DrewliusMaximus]

BB, I was thinking about your Dimir Infiltrator build and decided to try a version with more black and less blue, so that I could use Shade. I don't remember the exact list I used, and I only got to play 3 games against my friend's UW Fish deck, but I ended up thinking:
1. With Moxes, I want to try 4 Infiltrators
2. There should be a few more 2cc 1-ofs to tutor for
3. Cutpurse can be good, but is very conditional
4. Shade is not good enough here

Here's a list I'd like to try:

4 Delta
4 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland
4 Mox
3 Swamp
1 Island

4 Thoughtsieze
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Smother
1 Terror
4 Confidant
4 Fulminator Mage

4 Brainstorm
1 Echoing Truth
4 Spiketail Hatchling

4 Dimir Infiltrator
2 Shadowmage Infiltrator
2 Dimir Cutpurse

2 Jitte
1 Powder keg

So this is more black and less blue than what you suggested. However, with Fulminators + Wastelands, I think you can punish alot of manabases. And I added 1 Terror for larger guys, and 1 Powder Keg if you really need a sweeper.
Any thoughts on this?

Just thought of two other possible 2cc 1-ofs: Gilded Drake and Trickbind

[Benie Bederios]

Hi,

The first thing I did after adding moxen is remove them again. They did completly nothing for me, except being destroyed by EE's of my opponent.

If you look at your list there is a huge problem. Your average power of creatures is 1.5. That is far to low in a deck like this. That's why I added Oona's Prowler. It has a power of only 3 but has evasion. I tried Sea Drake or Serendib Efreet in that spot but am not sure yet. At least Prowler can be fetched by Infiltrator

About Fulminator Mage, how good is it? 2/2 isn't really a thread and destroying a non-basic for 3 mana is kinda slow too. I would change is it for a bigger beater. I would like to Stifle in your list. Wasteland+Stifle is probably better than Wasteland+Mage and playing all three is overkill.

So I would suggest something like
-4 Mage
-1 Smother
-3 Cabal Therapy
-1 Jitte
-1 Terror

+4 Sea Drake
+4 Stifle
+1 Diabolic Edict/Chainers Edict
+1 Hymn to Tourach

As for 2 mana cards:

Hymn to Tourach
Standstill
Chains of Mephistogewunceughsds
Rapid Decay

BB

[DrewliusMaximus]

Yeah, I didn't even get to test against EE yet, but I wasn't very happy when I got Deeded and when a Krosan Grip was aimed at my mana.

So, without Mox, I definitely would not play Fulminator Mage. It was nice to have Jitte-able body that could also destroy a land, but you're right, it is too slow without the Mox. Back to Stifles for sure.

The reason I ran lower-power creatures was because I wanted to focus on disrupting until I could get a Jitte. However, that did turn out to be too fragile, especially since many other decks play Jitte also.