[Article] Unlocking Legacy - More Than Mere Survival

[Zach Tartell]

Link (http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/15934.html)

Do these decks have what it takes to survive? Doug pores over four new Survival of the Fittest builds, evaluating their potential for current play and seeing if they solve the problems that have typically plagued Survival decks. Should you play the straightforward Survival Advantage deck, planning for a consistent stream of Green men? Is the classic Full English Breakfast kill worth revisiting? What would it take to make Slivers playable in Legacy? All this, plus the hottest Survival tech cards in this week's Unlocking Legacy!

Making fun of the Time Travel motif is pretty gay, so I'll skip that. Doug talks about some pretty cool Survival decks, but misses a couple archtypes that I'd have liked to have seen (GBwr, GBw w/o Reccuring Nightmare), but he gets props for the subtle "Lego is a lawyer" message.

Acceptable.

[Nihil Credo]

Thumbs up all the way - I can't really find anything wrong with this one. Maybe a random mention and link of Stuart Wright's Intuition Welder Survival list in the opening paragraph could have been appropriate, but that's it.

(I personally like the Doran Rock-style builds with maximum fatties, but since AFAIK they haven't yet posted results I can't fault Doug for not including them.)

[Elfrago]

Really a good article!:wink:

[Sanguine Voyeur]

How could you have not used the phrase "sliver bullets?"

Otherwise, I thought it was a good read about a rarely touched upon topic.

[goobafish]

I really liked this. A topic I knew nothing about, and the different decklists kept me interested.

[Bryant Cook]

Two thumbs up. The sliver list was awful, however, it wasn't yours.

[dahcmai]

No "I will Survive?"

I'm a fan of that deck and it's quite interesting anyway.

[Jak]

I like the idea of Slurvival, or whatever it's called. That build needs work, but it seems like an awesome idea.

[Eldariel]

Survival has definitely had too little coverage for what a prominent deck it's been over the years, so this is definitely an article that covers a relevant topic.

[frolll]

Oh yeah FEB is coming back ! Sign me up! ;)
The article was really really nice. One of the nicest Unlocking Legacy, I dare say.

[YuanTi]

FEB (http://www.deckcheck.net//deck.php?id=16515) Top8ed at a Tourney I was in on Saturday.

Coincidence? I think not.

Nice article, good reading for someone who had little experience with Survival.

[hi-val]

How could you have not used the phrase "sliver bullets?"

Otherwise, I thought it was a good read about a rarely touched upon topic.

The potential for puns in this article was critically high. I had to consciously limit myself.

Nihil Credo, I did an extensive article on Stu's Welder Survival list a couple months ago. If you're interested in it, the article is worth a read.

I tried to focus on a few decks that put up results recently, so unfortunately, I missed some classic stuff that hasn't won in the near past. I also focused on how new cards and strategies have changed up Survival, possibly enabling it where previous versions would have slipped.

[godryk]

Nice article, Survival deserves some credit...

BTW, I don't know where to post it, if someone is interested here you have the Valencia Duel for Duals finals where you can see the mentioned list on action:

Game 1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PV-KRqZzGaE)
Game 2: Part 1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nKwNrhKVr34), Part 2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tk9AHkCFTAw).

(Video quality isn't great)

[porcupinetreeman]

Nice Article.

Welder Survival or GWBR List would have also been cool. I like how you said that new sets bring creatures to the toolbox. It's one of the reasons survival is so fun, it's always changing.

[Aggro_zombies]

I just want to say that "hay guise, im a 9/9 lol." is classic.

Also, for the Sliver list, no Toxin Sliver? When I played Slivers I always disliked the fact that is was a royal pain in the ass to get around Tarmogoyf in the absence of a Winged Sliver, since it could profitable block and kill almost anything you had. Toxin Sliver in combination with Virulent Sliver turns combat into a lose-lose situation for the opponent 100% of the time, I found. Then again, I wasn't playing a deck with Survival in it, so...

Didn't Tacosnape develop a madness/Survival hybrid? Was that any good? Might have been interesting to see some discussion of a more non-traditional Survival deck.

[RoddyVR]

Wow. Glad i took a lot at this thread. Didnt even know my deck was in an article. I think i'm too excited at that prospect alone to decide if i realy like what was said about it or not (leaning towards "not" mostly because of the dis at Legion and Plated and the badly reasoned love for Virulent sliver).

Gotta go back an read the rest of the article before i comment on it as a whole.

[Versus]

Game 1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PV-KRqZzGaE)
Game 2: Part 1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nKwNrhKVr34), Part 2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tk9AHkCFTAw).



I just watched that entire match. It's amazing how the tides turned in favor of the Survival player. That Thresh guy had answers to EVERYTHING game 1, but the lone Goose wasn't enough to seal the deal quick enough before Survival stabalized. I was particularly fond of the double Stifle.

[xsockmonkeyx]

(leaning towards "not" mostly because of the dis at Legion and Plated and the badly reasoned love for Virulent sliver).

This was the thing that stood out to me the most. You seriously think Virulent Sliver is better than Plated? :RAGE: lern2sliver

[Zach Tartell]

What is the black creature that the Survival guy resolves at 7:36? Also, is his list published?

Recuring Nightmare. It was recurring nightmare.

[Versus]

Ohhhh is that what he was doing?! I thought it was a Witness, but then wondered why he was sacing the BoP then putting the "creature" back to his hand. Then I thought it was Therapy, but that didn't add up either. That clears up a lot.

[Aggro_zombies]

This was the thing that stood out to me the most. You seriously think Virulent Sliver is better than Plated? :RAGE: lern2sliver
Actually, it is better than Plated Sliver. Plated Sliver just makes your Slivers better at blocking, which will not win you the game. Virulent Sliver makes all of your threats twice as dangerous and functions much like Muscle Sliver 9-12 in a deck running 4 Sinew, 4 Muscle. Granted, it doesn't make your creatures any tougher in combat, but it does put an enormous pressure on your opponent to find an answer or die. Virulent Sliver with a Crystalline Sliver in play is a wrecking ball, especially if you give one or the other (or both) of them evasion.

[xsockmonkeyx]

Actually, it is better than Plated Sliver. Plated Sliver just makes your Slivers better at blocking, which will not win you the game.

Plated protects your slivers so they wont die to shit like pyroclasm and lets you swing in safely more often. Ive tested these type of things for about 2 years now and Plated is certainly more likely to win you the game.


Virulent Sliver makes all of your threats twice as dangerous and functions much like Muscle Sliver 9-12 in a deck running 4 Sinew, 4 Muscle.

No. You need to deal twenty damage (actually usually less due to fetches, forces and tombs) or ten poison. A combination of both isnt going to do shit so Virulent and Muscle Sliver are mutually exclusive. Virulent is not Muscle Sliver 9-12 (Plated is) it's poison sliver 1-4.




Dont believe me? Ask Volt....if he's still alive.

[Sanguine Voyeur]

Plated Sliver gives you a better match up against red decks, aggro decks, and can block a turn one Lackey and live. By making some sweepers less effective, it covers one of the weaknesses inherit for slivers.

Virulent seems cool, but not very effective.

[RoddyVR]

Actually, it is better than Plated Sliver. Plated Sliver just makes your Slivers better at blocking, which will not win you the game. Virulent Sliver makes all of your threats twice as dangerous and functions much like Muscle Sliver 9-12 in a deck running 4 Sinew, 4 Muscle. Granted, it doesn't make your creatures any tougher in combat, but it does put an enormous pressure on your opponent to find an answer or die.

Virulent is only better then plated if there are NO muscle/sinew slivers in the deck. Saying that poison and damage complement eachother as win conditions is the same as saying that burn decks should run milling conditions cause then they have 2 different threats that the opponent has to deal with. The strategies (poison vs damage) are mutualy exclusive and they dilute eachother in the deck. If you want to go poison, its basicaly a combo deck that aims to get multiple virulents into play at once and swing with all of them before your opponent can kill anything, you dont care if your slivers are small and will die to any blockers cause the one attack is enough to win via poison when each sliver is dumping 3 or 4 poison counters on the opponent.

Virulent Sliver with a Crystalline Sliver in play is a wrecking ball, especially if you give one or the other (or both) of them evasion.
it is a SMALLER wreking ball then a crystalline and a muscle.
Virulent + crystalline needs to attack 5 times with both to do 10 poison... and 15 damage.
muscle+crystaline needs to attack 4 times with both to do 20 damage.
virulent+muscle = 10 poison and 20 damage at same time.
virulent+crystalline+winged = 4 unblocked attacks for 12 poison and 16 damage.
muscle+crystalline+winged = 3 unblocked attacks for 21 damage.

In no situation (except infi life opponent, but that's a stupid reason to include virulents, even the article sais so) does a virulent sliver actualy HELP win faster if there's already a muscle on the board.

That comment in the article about "tested the deck with Virulents and it gives it the explosiveness it needed" is utter crap. I'd like to see him come up with an even remotely likely scenrio where virulents actualy speed the deck up (assuming the opponent is playing either cretures or atleast some creature removal, which prety much every deck that lets you go past turn 3 does).

Dam it. I already replied to every part of his comments on my deck in the deck's thread... and here i go again.
Guess i just take it too personaly when people start spouting "sage advice" on which slivers are better or worse based purely on their own theoretical (not practical) experience.

Unfortunately I dont realy know how the other Survival decks work or dont work to know if the article's comments on the other decks are as far off base as the ones on the sliver deck were, so i cant judge the whole article. If it wasnt for the sliver deck part of the article i would have said its a good article, but only because of my own ignorance of what is better or worse in a regular survival deck i would basicaly take what the article sais at face value.

[undone]

The only exception is double verilant sliver vs double mussle

6 points of damage has to swing thereticaly 4 times (usualy just 3 but we will assume 4)

and 4 posin has to swing thereticaly 3 times.

I liked the write up on FEB but he failed to mention that "Failure to be a level bazzilion judge means that you dont know the rules on how this deck works." (not that its not easy enough to learn most players just dont know exactly how the EXACT rules work for that deck)

Also RGBSA was a good write up I thought

[Lego]

Also RGBSA was a good write up I thought

It was decent. But here are a few problems:

Primal Command: His comments lead me to believe that he has never Command-Witness locked a player. Let him do that, and his estimation of this card will drastically change. And yes, it happens. Ask any Survival player.

Gleeful Sabotage: I believe Shadowmoor WAS legal for this tournament, but I didn't have any stuff. This should be able to replace Hull Breach pretty efficiently.

Firespout: Not necessarily a replacement for Rough/Tumble. While Rough/Tumble is worse against the random Faeries or Blue Skies decks you might see, it's better against everything else, because it saves your Birds. For Firespout to do that, you have to play it off three duals. It is also a lot harder to cast on the same turn as Burning Wish. The deck hits 4 mana a lot more consistently than 5, especially pre-Survival. This warrants some testing, but my initial thought is that it won't make the cut.

Faerie Macabre: A waste of a slot for something that Extirpate does a million times better. This seems to me to be the danger of cool things. Just because the effect comes on a creature doesn't mean you should play the creature if the effect isn't very good.

Kitchen Finks: Is worse than Spike Feeder for two reasons. He doesn't facilitate a Genesis loop, and he can't pump your Tarmogoyfs.

So basically, aside from the obvious Gleeful Sabotage, he didn't say much about the deck. Still, I liked the writeup.

On a side note, this is Jaynel's list, not mine.

[RoddyVR]

The only exception is double verilant sliver vs double mussle

6 points of damage has to swing thereticaly 4 times (usualy just 3 but we will assume 4)

and 4 posin has to swing thereticaly 3 times.
Putting a x4 into a deck because you're hoping to draw 2 of them in you opening hand (or first 9 cards or whatever) is a bad idea. Which again leaves us with "virulent only works if you've got survival out" and his very first "downside" to suvival decks was that some of them suck if you dont get SotF into play.
I'll admit that with survival out virulents get better, but they still suck cause they dont make the deck faster (the survival plan is the slow version of this deck, not the fast one). Getting crystalline, gemhide and heart (or just a bunch of muscles) tends to make more sense once you've got survival out then trying to put out a bunch of virulents and then having to waste all your mana to genesis back the virulents they keep killing with their blockers.

[moonmoon]

This is a great article.

[hi-val]

Actually, the play is that you have Vial at two and a Virulent Sliver in play. Then you go get the second Virulent Sliver, get a Winged Sliver with your Squee and then fly over and give the opponent AIDS.

Virulent is a sliver I'd want on turns other than just turn one, which is more than I can say about Plated. I wholeheartedly suggest actually putting them in the deck and seeing what they do. Most importantly, they're a 1-cc card for the deck to tutor for that does something.

Lego_Army_Man, I knew there was something about Primal Command that I was missing! Thanks for clearing it up. Firespout was a bit of "let's see if the new card will work". I've gotta say that I like Finks though; if you have Genesis in the yard to recur them, you can probably just Survival up some more instead of bringing back Feeders. Them + Therapy is like Ike and Tina. I think I'd go with four over one Feeder though, since they seem more like a primary strategy. The other analog is that they could replace Ascetics (if people still ran them). And really, pumping tarmogoyf is a silly reason to run something : )

[Jaynel]

I've gotta say that I like Finks though; if you have Genesis in the yard to recur them, you can probably just Survival up some more instead of bringing back Feeders. Them + Therapy is like Ike and Tina. I think I'd go with four over one Feeder though, since they seem more like a primary strategy. The other analog is that they could replace Ascetics (if people still ran them). And really, pumping tarmogoyf is a silly reason to run something : )

I think Finks is much, much, much better in Gwb Survival than Rgb variants, in which Spike Feeder gets the nod. I find that Gwb builds are able to play out as pseudo-Rock style decks with abuse of Therapy and Deed and good critters. Rgb builds seem much better at finding answers with Burning Wish until the Survival resolves and gets abused. Because of this rather awful nature of Grb builds, being able to determine when you gain life is pretty relevant. And the moving around of counters can mess up combat math pretty well (just as a bonus).

And Lego is completely right about the Primal Command. It's one of the only PROACTIVE wish targets, which is awesome when you have tons of mana but no Survival active.

[Lego]

Lego_Army_Man, I knew there was something about Primal Command that I was missing! Thanks for clearing it up. Firespout was a bit of "let's see if the new card will work". I've gotta say that I like Finks though; if you have Genesis in the yard to recur them, you can probably just Survival up some more instead of bringing back Feeders. Them + Therapy is like Ike and Tina. I think I'd go with four over one Feeder though, since they seem more like a primary strategy. The other analog is that they could replace Ascetics (if people still ran them). And really, pumping tarmogoyf is a silly reason to run something : )

Thanks for responding :) Yeah, Jaynel is right about Primal Command. The thing is, it sort of gives you 8 really powerful cards. If you don't find Survival, Burning Wish for Primal Command can still do some ridiculously powerful things.

As for Firespout, like I said, I'll definitely test it. We'll see :)

Kitchen Finks seems good as a four-of. If you're playing the single bullet, Spike Feeder seems better. And don't underestimate the strength of making your Goyfs win the Goyf fights.

(It's this kind of productive discussion that I feel like doesn't happen enough on these boards!)

[hi-val]

You know, I've used Spike Feeder to make my Tarms bigger in actual play. I've done that and yet I still thought you meant eating Spike Feeder itself to make Tarm bigger! Yes, you're right, the counters are nice; I remember putting counters on a Birds to kill someone with at one point. I love Peaches, but Finks is certainly a contenda'.

With Command, I'm guessing that you Plow Under and then tutor up a Witness to do it again with?

And regarding Virulent, srsly, having one in play and Survivaling up the other two and playing them actually does win the game on the spot. It also lets you sit on your Slivers and peck with one or two when you need to hold the rest of the team back for some reason. Getting Wingy and swinging in for 2 poison a turn while holding down the ground with Sliver Army is a fine ambition.

And I have nothing but props for Sliver Legion, that dude is really neat.

[Lego]

With Command, I'm guessing that you Plow Under and then tutor up a Witness to do it again with?

Followed by your opponent crying. If you've got the 8 mana, it's usually concession territory. Otherwise, it just buys you a few turns with which to swing, draw extra cards, whatever.

[Bardo]

Wow, I finally got around to reading this article and it's superb. Good pacing, topical relevant content, nice style and flow. I really dug it. 5/5

[hi-val]

: D Praise from Caesar indeed!