[Deck] It's the Fear - Control in the new Era

[chokin]

I sleeved up the Fear today for the first time and played 5 games with it, 4 vs 2 types of reanimator and 1 vs a mono black controlish deck. I ended up going 4-1 all of which were pre-board.

A landed Simic for reanimator is simply game over. The rest can be somewhat managed via countering, swords, or a lucky explosives for animate dead. I have found top to be crucial to get what is needed for this deck, even moreso than my experience with landstill. This is probably the case because the deck is not drawing inordinate amounts of cards so it needs quality and consistency.

Overall I plan on trying it out some more. The decklist was the one referenced a few pages back.

Diabolic Edict would solve this problem. I'd run no more than 2 though. The deck is pretty tight as is. I think it's Vorosh Landstill that runs a list similar to ITF but has no white and uses Edict. Your removal would basically look like UGWB Landstill's but Edict instead of Innocent Blood. Relic might be better than Crypt if you expect that much Reanimator. Being able to rip out their targets from under their noses all the time would rock.

[Tosh]

Diabolic Edict would solve this problem. I'd run no more than 2 though. The deck is pretty tight as is. I think it's Vorosh Landstill that runs a list similar to ITF but has no white and uses Edict. Your removal would basically look like UGWB Landstill's but Edict instead of Innocent Blood. Relic might be better than Crypt if you expect that much Reanimator. Being able to rip out their targets from under their noses all the time would rock.

Diabolic Edict: What you would have to take out to fit in Edict (Swords) is better than Edict in almost all situations. Edict is only good against shroud and to be honest, that's only relevant in 2 MU: Reanimator and Slivers.

Relic: The fact that Relic removes your own graveyard from the game is bad. Tormod's Crypt costs 0 and does not remove your own yard from the game. Relic is only better than Crypt when you need to deal with Goyfs, which this deck can do all by itself just fine. Relic's other effect is not relevant at all since it doesn't target a card in the 'yard, it just removes one of their choosing.

[Deep6er]

Quick update: "Templar" Goblins is a complete beating for It's the Fear. Thoughtseize is an absolute stellar card for that particular match up, and combined with four Siege Gang Commanders, definitely swings that match up back to being unfavorable for It's the Fear.

I'm doing a play-by-play match up analysis for Goblins, Threshold, and (hopefully, if I can find somebody to play me) Landstill.

I'll post them in Forum Development when I'm finished (possibly middle of next month at the earliest) so that people can understand my thought processes and ideas when I'm playing It's the Fear against various match ups.

I'll post quick updates as I finish the ten game sets (hopefully pre and post board if they don't mind).

[frogboy]

Define 'Landstill' and I would probably be willing to play a set with some iteration of Vorosh. I just don't want to be battling with garbage like Humility and whatnot.

[Deep6er]

Two things:

1) I have a Mac (and thus, don't have Workstation which is PC only).

2) My internet connection is difficult to describe right now. Imagine this:

You're in a house with four other people and only one telephone line. You have dial up. Also, one of the four people is a teenage girl.

That's kind of what I have now.

I can only siphon intermittent Wi-Fi when I'm in my apartment (there are two unsecured wireless networks, but they're distant, and spotty at best). So, I have to leave in order to get reliable internet connections. I don't have a car, so that means that I have to take the bus to go places. This is a lot of hassle.

Basically, the idea is to get one of the guys down here to help me out.

I do appreciate the offer though.

Also, if you haven't read my signature, I would recommend doing so.

[jeanbathez]

Hi to all !!!

I sleeved up It's the Fear last weekend for first time in a small tournament.

I must admit, it's the first since 10 years, that i played a deck with force of will. I had a long break from magic and then i started with standard.

When i found this thread and read the name of the deck, i thought : try it out !!

At first : This deck is really brilliant, it was a lot of fun to play and very effective !!!

I can only say thank you to all the people who worked on this deck (in particular Deep6er)!!!!!

So i played 4 Rounds, with the standard list, only a different SB for "my meta" :

1. Round : Discard 2:1
2. Round : Aggro Loam 0:2
3. Round : Mono G Elves 2:1
4. Round : UBw Fish : 2:0

My conclusion : i never thought, that counterbalance works that good, in this deck with that curve, it was sooood good.

In my last round my opponent play EE for :4: with :u: and :w: to get through my balance, but i had oracle in my hand with brainstorm :smile:
About oracle, it was very versatile, it won me some games, somtimes as a beater, sometimes as carddraw, sometime for balance.

The most difficulties i had was to play the deck correctly. I think this deck needs a lot of practise.

The only real problem was the wastelands from the loam matchup. g1 he wastelanded me out of the game.Couldn`t get balance to stop his loams.

Game 2 i had control with balance and top, then he played terravore, i looked at my top : no :3: , i shuffled and saw 3 lands on top :mad: . I think i misplayed that game before :mad: .

I must admit the games against loam with wasteland wasn't that good, must think of it again, what i can do different next time.

[johanessen]

Why fact or fiction isn't played in these decks?

[Goaswerfraiejen]

Why fact or fiction isn't played in these decks?

Instead of what? Intuition works better anyway, being cheaper and letting you grab the necessary specifics for whatever situation faces you. FoF is hit or miss; Intuition is not. This (these) deck(s) cannot afford to miss.

[landstill101]

Hi to all !!!

I sleeved up It's the Fear last weekend for first time in a small tournament.

I must admit, it's the first since 10 years, that i played a deck with force of will. I had a long break from magic and then i started with standard.

When i found this thread and read the name of the deck, i thought : try it out !!

At first : This deck is really brilliant, it was a lot of fun to play and very effective !!!

I can only say thank you to all the people who worked on this deck (in particular Deep6er)!!!!!

So i played 4 Rounds, with the standard list, only a different SB for "my meta" :

1. Round : Discard 2:1
2. Round : Aggro Loam 0:2
3. Round : Mono G Elves 2:1
4. Round : UBw Fish : 2:0

My conclusion : i never thought, that counterbalance works that good, in this deck with that curve, it was sooood good.

In my last round my opponent play EE for :4: with :u: and :w: to get through my balance, but i had oracle in my hand with brainstorm :smile:
About oracle, it was very versatile, it won me some games, somtimes as a beater, sometimes as carddraw, sometime for balance.

The most difficulties i had was to play the deck correctly. I think this deck needs a lot of practise.

The only real problem was the wastelands from the loam matchup. g1 he wastelanded me out of the game.Couldn`t get balance to stop his loams.

Game 2 i had control with balance and top, then he played terravore, i looked at my top : no :3: , i shuffled and saw 3 lands on top :mad: . I think i misplayed that game before :mad: .

I must admit the games against loam with wasteland wasn't that good, must think of it again, what i can do different next time.

What was your sideboard? Being an extensive ITF player, I have found that any type of wasteland lock is a pain in the ass with this deck, and really the only thing you have mainboard is to have loam in opening hand or draw it within the first 3 turns, then you laugh at them, but since the list only runs 1 sometimes its hard to get. One of the things which really fix this problem is tormods crypt, you main deck soo many lands losing one wont make a difference with having brainstorm and top to search, you can just wait till he uses the loam, or the wasteland and just crypt it away. Another thing I have tried but don't like(because of mainboarding 3 deeds and 2 EE) is needle which shuts down wasteland and helps with other things like port, belcher, and such. One of the things I have used before to stop the loam recursion is to just keep countering the loam with things like spellsnare, counterspell and FOW untill you can get balance online then just keep a 2 cc in the top 3 all the time, this is prob the best way I see to help the first game.


johanessen, where do you see room for Fact or fiction, the deck has great graveyard recursion and intution gets you the card you want, and you control what goes in the graveyard. The post before this hit it pretty well.

[chokin]

What was your sideboard? Being an extensive ITF player, I have found that any type of wasteland lock is a pain in the ass with this deck, and really the only thing you have mainboard is to have loam in opening hand or draw it within the first 3 turns, then you laugh at them, but since the list only runs 1 sometimes its hard to get. One of the things which really fix this problem is tormods crypt, you main deck soo many lands losing one wont make a difference with having brainstorm and top to search, you can just wait till he uses the loam, or the wasteland and just crypt it away. Another thing I have tried but don't like(because of mainboarding 3 deeds and 2 EE) is needle which shuts down wasteland and helps with other things like port, belcher, and such. One of the things I have used before to stop the loam recursion is to just keep countering the loam with things like spellsnare, counterspell and FOW untill you can get balance online then just keep a 2 cc in the top 3 all the time, this is prob the best way I see to help the first game.


johanessen, where do you see room for Fact or fiction, the deck has great graveyard recursion and intution gets you the card you want, and you control what goes in the graveyard. The post before this hit it pretty well.

I had to play against Pox. His list had 4 Wasteland and 3 Crucible and I really just held out my counters for Crucible. Nothing else was too terribly threatening. Deeds really helps too if you can manage to get one out early.

Against Landstill, I could see it being a whole hell of a lot harder since they have Force and 2-4 Counterspell too. Save your fetches until you need them. They'll have to waste a land drop and allow you to have that land to quasi keep you from having a fetch. I play Grips in the board, which rock against Wastelock. Having 2 basics is key since all you need is a Trop for the Grip to stop the lock. Gravehate also helps beat Wastelock. You mentioned Crypt already.

Fact or Fiction is no where near as good as Intuition here. We recur whatever we get anyways, so Intuition is kinda like "2U: Demonic Tutor x3, your opponent chooses the one you get now, but you'll get the other 2 back later". Intuition allows you to create many different piles for whatever the situation calls for. If you need to blow up the board, get 3 Deeds. If you want Counterbalance, get it. If you have CB and need Top, do it. Grab Loam piles. It is extremely flexible. It's like Cunning Wish in WishStill or in Solidarity. It fills the role needed instead of having us cross our fingers in hopes that something we need now is on the top 5. Plus Intuition is a turn faster.

I think that FoF is best in a deck like Landstill, which draws cards like crazy. Basically, Landstill wants to draw cards and not tutor in the same fashion ITF does.

[frogboy]

Fact or Fiction is better in Landstill because most of Landstill's cards just trade, and it needs to get ahead at some point or it's going to lose just by virtue of having more lands than the aggro decks. That's not a concern with ITF.

[Infinitium]

Wrath, Deed, Humility, Crucible and Standstill would like a word with you? FoF has some major dissynergy with an active CounterTop though so this might not be the deck for it.

[Guy I Don't Know]

What is the plan against Ad Nauseum with this deck?

[chokin]

What is the plan against Ad Nauseum with this deck?

CB+Top kinda rapes their low cc spells. Having a land on top stops Chrome Mox, Mox Diamond, LED and Lotus Petal. Having anything that costs 1(including SDT) on top stops Tutor, Brainstorm, Duress, Chant, RoF, Ponder and Dark Ritual. Our 2cc slot is kinda small, so they'll be able to squeeze Infernal Tutors, Cabal Ritual, and Burning Wish through. It isn't a win though, they can draw or tutor for Wipe Away/Rushing River before you assemble CB+Top, but you can always counter.

The only other things I can think of is Arcane Lab(kinda slow and shitty) and more counters(tight decklist as is). Meddling Mage is another idea, but naming AN sucks and Tendrils is just as bad. Multiples would do best, but counting on that is still not great.

[landstill101]

I had to play against Pox. His list had 4 Wasteland and 3 Crucible and I really just held out my counters for Crucible. Nothing else was too terribly threatening. Deeds really helps too if you can manage to get one out early.



I should have been more specific with my post when I ment wastelock it was refering to the post about aggro loam, which my explanation was against loam wasteland lock, crucible is really easy to stop and have never had a problem with it yet and I play against landstill and stax decks. Loam can keep coming back which is why its a pain in the ass.

[chokin]

I should have been more specific with my post when I ment wastelock it was refering to the post about aggro loam, which my explanation was against loam wasteland lock, crucible is really easy to stop and have never had a problem with it yet and I play against landstill and stax decks. Loam can keep coming back which is why its a pain in the ass.

Ah, I'm sorry that none of that helped lol. My experience playing this vs Aggro Loam is pretty limited and the decklist my opponent played was not mainstream at all. Game one, you might just lose and not be able to help it. CB+Top helps prevent Loam from locking you out. Game two gives you Crypt to use when Loam or Wasteland is in the yard will stop the lock temporarily. Get your basics early so you can still cast stuff (CB+Top to stop the shenanigans of Loam). Siding in BEB helps against Devastating Dreams and Crusher, so you can save STPs for Terravore.

[raharu]

On the topic of recurring Wasteland, don't forget your Academy Ruins, Tormod's Crypt, Life from the Loam pile for Intuition. Not "TEH BAST", but it's decent enough.

[Citrus-God]

Personally, I think you should incorporate more 4 cc cards in the maindeck. If not that, gamble for 50/50 and throw in 1-2 more BEBs in the SB. It seems that the only things this deck hates are Wort and SGC. If you can keep one of those from resolving, it might be quite beneficial.

[raharu]

Personally, I think you should incorporate more 4 cc cards in the maindeck. If not that, gamble for 50/50 and throw in 1-2 more BEBs in the SB. It seems that the only things this deck hates are Wort and SGC. If you can keep one of those from resolving, it might be quite beneficial.
I'd like to see the logic behind this. Not attacking the idea, but I'm just wondering what that's pertaining to.

[chokin]

Personally, I think you should incorporate more 4 cc cards in the maindeck. If not that, gamble for 50/50 and throw in 1-2 more BEBs in the SB. It seems that the only things this deck hates are Wort and SGC. If you can keep one of those from resolving, it might be quite beneficial.

Wort resolving isn't a problem. You can remove it after she hits before the upkeep. SGC makes doods and shoots little green men in your face. BEB effects are nice for countering and removing those little green guys, but the 3-4 ones that are in the board are enough. Unless you expect a bunch of red based decks, that is.

[Citrus-God]

Wort resolving isn't a problem. You can remove it after she hits before the upkeep. SGC makes doods and shoots little green men in your face. BEB effects are nice for countering and removing those little green guys, but the 3-4 ones that are in the board are enough. Unless you expect a bunch of red based decks, that is.

I haven't had the time to test against Templar Goblins much with ITF yet. I assume ITF has a really strong-post board game... but again, the best this MU can be with just 4 BEBs in the board is 50/50.

[jeanbathez]

What was your sideboard? Being an extensive ITF player, I have found that any type of wasteland lock is a pain in the ass with this deck, and really the only thing you have mainboard is to have loam in opening hand or draw it within the first 3 turns, then you laugh at them, but since the list only runs 1 sometimes its hard to get. One of the things which really fix this problem is tormods crypt, you main deck soo many lands losing one wont make a difference with having brainstorm and top to search, you can just wait till he uses the loam, or the wasteland and just crypt it away. Another thing I have tried but don't like(because of mainboarding 3 deeds and 2 EE) is needle which shuts down wasteland and helps with other things like port, belcher, and such. One of the things I have used before to stop the loam recursion is to just keep countering the loam with things like spellsnare, counterspell and FOW untill you can get balance online then just keep a 2 cc in the top 3 all the time, this is prob the best way I see to help the first game.


@landstill101 : Thanks for your answer, help is always welcome from extensive ITF players :smile: . I like this deck, but its hard to play correctly. My SB was :

4 Blue Elemental Blast
4 Krosan Grip
2 Tormods Crypt
3 Extirpate ( Didin´t had enough Crypts, but i was not pleased with extirpate in this deck)
2 Spell Snare (This would change next time, there wasn't enough as thought there will be)

About wasteland lock : I had similar thoughts than you wrote, but hadn't tested them, so your answer was very heplful, now i know my ideas weren`t that bad. My newest idea was needle, you said you tried it, but wasn't pleased - only because of deed and EE or where there other reasons too ?

[Drac]

I top 4ed with ITF in a 31 man tournament today.

I played vs

Alluren 2-1 (mulled to 5 1 game and found no land)

Fetchland tendrills 2-1 (my 2 chants in the sideboard where so usefull)

Goblins 2-0 (shackles and deed +recursion pwned both games)

MUC 0-2 (got pwned by BtB twice backed up by many counter, also Kira and Sower of temptation stealing gofy)

UGw Thresh 2-0 (deed+EE+reucurring stuff was too much)

Top 8

Something that looked abit like a combination of 4 collor thresh and Fish, it looked solid. i won 2-1 and decked him the last game, it took 1,5 hours for that game alone.

UGB Landstill, First game was close he just raced me before i could overpower him with recursion engines. Second game he waste+extirpate my tropical, then he extirpated my top and dropped gigapede GG

My Maindboard compared to David Gearheart's

-1 CB
+1 EE

Side:

-1 K Grip
-1 BeB
+2 Orim's Chant

[landstill101]

@landstill101 : Thanks for your answer, help is always welcome from extensive ITF players :smile: . I like this deck, but its hard to play correctly. My SB was :

4 Blue Elemental Blast
4 Krosan Grip
2 Tormods Crypt
3 Extirpate ( Didin´t had enough Crypts, but i was not pleased with extirpate in this deck)
2 Spell Snare (This would change next time, there wasn't enough as thought there will be)

About wasteland lock : I had similar thoughts than you wrote, but hadn't tested them, so your answer was very heplful, now i know my ideas weren`t that bad. My newest idea was needle, you said you tried it, but wasn't pleased - only because of deed and EE or where there other reasons too ?
Another thing with needle is that, its dissynergy with deed and E.E. make it hard to play(but is still doable) but when the format is mainly threshold and mainly goyf, every sideboard has atleast 3 grips in and that is a problem. Truly If I were you, I would try them out, you might be able to use them to your liking, the deck can get around blowing them up because of academy ruins.

With your sideboard, I would take out 2 extirpates for tormods crypt(which you have already decided) and then that gives you 3 slots to play with which you can try needle, personally I have nev disks because of stompy running around.

On a note, to the talk about the goblin matchup, SGC is really easy to stop, you have swords to the big guy, and you have 3 deeds, and 2 explosives to easily remove the tokens. And even then, you run shackles to steal the big guy and you should also have enough mana to just blow teh whole board with deed.

[landstill101]

I top 4ed with ITF in a 31 man tournament today.

I played vs

Alluren 2-1 (mulled to 5 1 game and found no land)

Fetchland tendrills 2-1 (my 2 chants in the sideboard where so usefull)

Goblins 2-0 (shackles and deed +recursion pwned both games)

MUC 0-2 (got pwned by BtB twice backed up by many counter, also Kira and Sower of temptation stealing gofy)

UGw Thresh 2-0 (deed+EE+reucurring stuff was too much)

Top 8

Something that looked abit like a combination of 4 collor thresh and Fish, it looked solid. i won 2-1 and decked him the last game, it took 1,5 hours for that game alone.

UGB Landstill, First game was close he just raced me before i could overpower him with recursion engines. Second game he waste+extirpate my tropical, then he extirpated my top and dropped gigapede GG

My Maindboard compared to David Gearheart's

-1 CB
+1 EE

Side:

-1 K Grip
-1 BeB
+2 Orim's Chant

Thanx for the report, The one thing you might want to do is if you see extirpates enough, put in a basic forest(I have a decent amount of extirpate in my meta so this really helps.) and against MUC, umm..... This matchup is a win for us if we get down countertop, this is one of those matchups where I will try to pull out as much of their counters with goyfs and shackles and shit, then sneak in the counterbalance, once you do that its instant win.

[chokin]

Thanx for the report, The one thing you might want to do is if you see extirpates enough, put in a basic forest(I have a decent amount of extirpate in my meta so this really helps.) and against MUC, umm..... This matchup is a win for us if we get down countertop, this is one of those matchups where I will try to pull out as much of their counters with goyfs and shackles and shit, then sneak in the counterbalance, once you do that its instant win.

Also, fetching basic Islands really helps since you know they'll have B2B by Game 2. Even if you only have access to UU, that's better than having nothing at all.

@Drac - What colors did Goblins run? Was it the Templar Goblins that everyone is talking about? Grats on the win either way.

I don't like Extirpate here. I really think that it's such a limited card in ITF. My SB looks like:
4 BEB
4 Krosan Grip
3 Tormod's Crypt
4 Meta Slots (more BEB effects for red decks, I tried a couple Wipe Away for Scepter Chant, and I've considered Perish for Elves)

[raharu]

Thanx for the report, The one thing you might want to do is if you see extirpates enough, put in a basic forest.

Or a Breeding Pool, since you can actually fetch that.

[Drac]

I dont like a basic forest, since you cannot fetch or even intuition for it once your tropical has been extirpated. So i decided to go -1 Trop +1 Bayou

I did fetch my 3 basics vs muc and i had countertop down and still lost. My opponent resolved Kira+Sower to steal goyf.

Goblins was a outdated list. with 4 lightning bolt 4 pyrokensis maindboard and he sided in 4 pithing needles which got pwned by my 1 sided Disk.

The 2 orim's chants in my sideboard made combo doable. i am thinking of cutting 1 crypt to add a third. Then my sideboard would look like this, also thinking to add 1 pithing needle to the sideboard for all the painter decks.

3 Nev Disk
3 Krosan Grip
3 BeB
3 T Crypt
3 Orim's Chant

[SickThoughts]

Can someone explain to me why there's only one eternal witness? Isn't it pretty crappy if it gets STP'ed or something?

[Goaswerfraiejen]

Can someone explain to me why there's only one eternal witness? Isn't it pretty crappy if it gets STP'ed or something?

It would be if Witness was particularly important. Witness adds redundancy, and that's its only real function. Stronghold recursions of it are awesome, but only rarely called for. Lastly, it has GG in its casting cost, which is rather difficult for this deck to achieve if its manabase is under fire. It's also prohibitive if you want to cast anything else with green in its cost (Tarmogoyf, Deed/EE, etc.)--or blue/black, given the narrow manabase (what I mean is that you'll only get green from a couple of dual lands, which ties them up). Running more than one Witness commits you too strongly to casting it.

[landstill101]

Or a Breeding Pool, since you can actually fetch that.

I have tried breeding pool but found it not helpful because the forest gives me the ability to cast goyf and loam without worry of wasteland/extirpate, what do you do if your trops are extirpated and he has a wasteland? that means you are instantly out of green sources because you don't have a forest.

This is my mana base I'm running right now:
4 Polluted delta
3 flooded strand
4 tropical island
3 underground sea
2 tundra
1 academy ruins
1 volraths stronghold
1 bayou
1 forest
1 island

Which is 1 less land than Deep6er's current list. I have 1 bayou and a forest which helps against wasteland and extirpate but still ahve 2 basics to help against back to basics, choke, and stompy.

Sickthoughts, there is only 1 eternal witness because there is no reason to have more when you can just recur that one. And if it is swords that means he has only 3 swords to your 4 goys and etched oracle.
The deck runs intution to get it any time and really its a horrible creature to have in opening hand since this deck doesn't fill the graveyard as earlier as threshold, but in the long game we have more in the graveyard to use with that witness.

[chokin]

The 2 orim's chants in my sideboard made combo doable. i am thinking of cutting 1 crypt to add a third. Then my sideboard would look like this, also thinking to add 1 pithing needle to the sideboard for all the painter decks.

3 Nev Disk
3 Krosan Grip
3 BeB
3 T Crypt
3 Orim's Chant

I would personally would only run 1 Disk and increase whatever else you need more of. You can Intuition pile Disk, Ruins, Loam and get it. Then they really need 3 Needles to prevent a board wiping effect. Maybe I'm wrong though.

Bayou vs Breeding Pool - Pool is meh but can be fetched with any of your fetches and supports your main color and a splash. Bayou can be fetched only by Delta and supports 2 splashes. It's debatable.

@Sick - Counter the STP imo (CB+Top preferred). I think that it is more likely for Goyf to get STPd anyways.

EDIT: @ Landstill - Depending on what you think you might see, I'd go -1 Bayou/Forest +1 Island. Having at least 2 is necessary I think. Bayou can be fetched by half of your fetchlands, Forest can't. Forest doesn't die to Wasteland, Bayou does. Maybe cut a Trop or U.Sea for something? That seems kinda shitty though.

[FredMaster]

Of course it is crappy if that one Witness gets "stop"ped but what for that issue you have the counterbalance.
And one Witness is really enough since you only want to be able to wish it via Intuition and return it via Stronghold.

//Edit: Wow, nice reactions - you guys. oO

[Drac]

The 3 disk's are not for killing needle's They are for raping dragon stompy. you cannot intuition for loam disk and ruins if there is a blood moon. you need the ability to find a disk with cantrips or intuition for 3 if you can fetch a basic island

[chokin]

Lol I had room in my sideboard, so for shit and giggles I did:
4 Krosan Grip
3 BEB(1 extra since there were like 3 red decks out of 10 players)
2 Hydroblast
3 Tormod's Crypt
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Wasteland
1 Tabernacle

Tabernacle helped vs Slivers because he was mana screwed and had to keep his guys tapped to stay alive lol. Wasteland+CoW helped me beat Reanimator (lol wtf?) because they had like 2 basics.

Crucible was nice, but felt completely unneeded. It was cute for Wastelock, but the effort to set it up was dumb. Tabernacle was incredibly bad and I hated it more than CoW+Wasteland.

The lesson: if you have extra room in your sideboard, don't add cute shit.

[aTn]

I just played at a 36 player tournament at my local store. Since I wanted to play ITF (and had done no prior testing to the tournament), I decided to build a list 30 minutes before the tournament. Not having all the cards to play the deck, I built something that's not quite ITF, but finished 2nd nonetheless. I don't claim my list is optimal. In particular, I probably sacrificed some of the power of ITF in making my deck. The end results is a deck that I found pretty aggressive (due to the inclusion of Tombstalker).

Not quite ITF

Creatures (7)
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Tombstalker

Control (10)
4 Force of Will
4 Counterbalance
2 Counterspell

Draw (10)
4 Brainstorm
3 Sensei’s Divining Top
3 Intuition

Removal (9)
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Engineered Explosives

Other (2)
1 Life from the Loam
1 Vedalken Shackles

Mana (22)
4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
2 Tundra
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Volrath’s Stronghold
1 Academy Ruins
1 Wasteland

Sideboard (15)
4 Krosan Grip
4 BEB-Hyrdoblast
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Engineered Plague (Goblins was present at the tournament; maybe this is overkill and siding-in 4 BEB would have been enough for me to win that match)
1 Etched Oracle

The Etched Oracle was basically sided-in as an additionnal threat and as a recurring draw engine in the control match-ups.

What do you think of my list ?

[Waikiki]

I find it hard to support tombstalker cause the graveyard is a resource for card advantage and most cards in the grave i'd like to see recurred once more.

what decks did you face?

[aTn]

I guess the deck plays differently than ITF (because in large part of Tombstalker). Since a lot of games (in the tournament and my testing) get to mid-late game, I don't have much of a problem in finding what to remove to cast Tombstalker.

In the tournament, I faced some burn deck, Dreadstill and Eva Green. The store had to close after 3 rounds, so the results are far from being conclusive; the good side is they hold 30+ player Legacy tournaments every week; so it'll be a nice way to complement my playtesting by going to these tournaments. Since then I've tested the list against UGW-Threshold, UGR-Thrash, Goblins and 4c Landstill. I'll have to do more testing to give representative conclusions, but for now I'd say the results are pretty positive.

[conboy31]

I am surprised this list was able to get 3rd out of 14th. It is obviously due to card shortage http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=20990 but I can't imagine trying to stablize with ITF when I have done 6+ damage to myself with shocks and fetches. Sower was also probably because of not having oracle, but the selection itself is interesting. It still is a 4cc but provides stealing vs drawing cards. It can not be brought back with ruins and stronghold though but can pitch to FOW.

[conboy31]

Then obviously you haven't tested this deck, most 4 color decks,specially control like ITF and landstill deal a lot of damage to ourselves then play a deed to wipe the board or stp a goyf and drop counterbalance... Really I can't see how we can't stabilize. Have you ever looked at lists like stax and such where tomb will do tons of damage to them before they stabilize.

Yes the sower is prob the lack of oracle, but it is a good choice for a replacement and yes you can bring it back with stronghold. [Snip. Condescending and unnecessary. You're one warning away from a site ban, remember? - Bardo]

I have played about a dozen games with the deck and this one that (from my experience) is not nearly as viable with shock lands as opposed to regular duals. There are various decks where this is largely irrelevant but I've found ITF stabalizing at lower life totals than traditional landstill decks. I could be wrong.
Yes, I have looked at stax lists and have all the various cards for all stax decks and variations -rolling earthquake. I had a blast following the developments of Sun Tower and its offshoots and hope that non white stax can become viable again as I don't enjoy morphing dragons and tabernacles as much as eating faces with bear tokens.

As for the Sower comment, I was using a conjunction. I said it can't be brought back with Ruins AND Stronghold. This is a fact.

[chokin]

Sower isn't that bad. It's just not the best choice. It's neat for stealing creatures that Shackles can't do on turn 4 (Akroma, fatass Countryside Crusher, Goyf on occasion, etc). I just wouldn't know how to fit it in.

@ aTn - Good job on your finish. A very interesting and different build, I might add. How did TS work out for you? Were you able to get BB and enough yard junk to fuel him fast? Or was he more like a late game finisher? If he was a late game fatty, would it maybe be a good idea to run like 1-2 and Intuition for TS, Stronghold, Loam or TS, TS, Stronghold? It frees up space for other stuff like Intuition #4 and a maindecked Oracle. Just a suggestion :)

[jazzykat]

The lesson: if you have extra room in your sideboard, don't add cute shit.

A good lesson to learn indeed. It will only tempt you to do stupid things.

[Blitzbold]

@ aTn: I nearlly fell in love with your list. Only problem I see is the amount of blue cards you're running. I'd like to see at least 18 or even 19 blue cards to better support Force of Will.

I wasn't afraid of the combo matchup until today, but when I saw a friend going of through Counterbalance AND Force. Do you feel comfortable in this MU without further addressing it by the sideboard?

[aTn]

Thanks for the feedback guys. I'll try to answer some of your questions-concerns.


How did TS work out for you? Were you able to get BB and enough yard junk to fuel him fast?

Until now, Tombstalker has been amazing. I have finished games with either 1 or occasionnaly 2 on the board. In my mind he's more like a mid-late game finisher against aggro-control and control. If in a rush, you can actually cast one relatively early on (sometimes with the help of Intuition for either 3 TS or LftL + 2 extra cards).


Or was he more like a late game finisher? If he was a late game fatty, would it maybe be a good idea to run like 1-2 and Intuition for TS, Stronghold, Loam or TS, TS, Stronghold? It frees up space for other stuff like Intuition #4 and a maindecked Oracle. Just a suggestion :)

I agree. The idea I had in putting 3 was to be able to get one in my hand either by drawing him or via Intuition to put pressure early on. That being said, I think going -1 TS, +1 Intuition is a good idea. The only thing I have against it is it lowers the threat count... but then again, if you view Intuition as an enabler, then it might be right.

Oracle for me has been too damn slow to set up, but that's just my experience.


I nearlly fell in love with your list. Only problem I see is the amount of blue cards you're running.

I totally agree. Right now I'll test -1 TS, +1 Intuition, so the blue count should be 18 if I'm not mistaken. I agree it's still a bit low... If you have a suggestion, go ahead :)


I wasn't afraid of the combo matchup until today, but when I saw a friend going of through Counterbalance AND Force. Do you feel comfortable in this MU without further addressing it by the sideboard?

I think the E. Plague and Oracle slots in the SB could be adapted to combo. 4 StoP + 4 BeB post-board against Goblins seems fair enough (and playing Goyf helps) - I went overkill with the E. Plagues I think.

[esmandil]

4 StoP + 4 BeB post-board against Goblins seems fair enough (and playing Goyf helps)

Just for the record, 4 StP and 4 BeB is far from enough for goblins against competent players. You basically lose game 1 about 100% times, and winning the remaining two is far from certain.

[aTn]

Just for the record, 4 StP and 4 BeB is far from enough for goblins against competent players. You basically lose game 1 about 100% times, and winning the remaining two is far from certain.

Maybe (that's why I originally played 3 E. Plague in the SB). I was simply making an hypothesis mainly based on my UGW-Threshold days where - in my experience - 4 Goyf, 4 Goose, 4 Stop and 4 BEB were enough most of the time.

[brattin]

Has anyone thought seriously about Enlightened Tutor? I searched for it and found it in the thread only as a reason to run Standstill over Intuition, which is clearly terrible.

I'm thinking about running them over Nevinyrral's Disk in the sideboard (really the only slots that I feel aren't set in stone at this point--I'm running 4 Blue Elemental Blasts, 4 Tormod's Crypts, 4 Krosan Grips, and 3 Nevinyrral's Disks right now).

Reasons to run Enlightened Tutor, as far as I'm concerned:


Gets Counterbalance or Sensei's Divining Top when you need it early
Gets Deed when you need it early
Counters anything with CMC 1-4 with Counterbalance on the table
Gets Tormod's Crypt early against Ichorid


I've liked Enlightened Tutor in Landstill (usually getting Humility [especially in response to Cabal Therapy]) and in UGw Threshold, getting CounterTop active, countering spells with Counterbalance, and getting Back To Basics when it wins the game. I'm not suggesting it maindeck, because it isn't always necessary and it is unequivocally card disadvantage, but I think it wouldn't be hard to find matchups where you'd want it.

If the sideboard is more flexible than I think it is, you could also get a Runed Halo against combo or an Engineered Plague against Goblins, or maybe even a Disk against Dragon Stompy. We are running a basic Plains, after all.

What do you guys think?

[Waikiki]

so what bullets would you put in your SB? A SB that lacks space anyways.
And more important.. What do you board out? What matchup do you think it is needed?

[brattin]

I just started thinking about it last night, and haven't played many games since then, so I'm not entirely sure.

I probably wouldn't run any bullets sideboard, I was just mentioning it as a possibility. If you were forcing me to run a bullet SB, my first inclination would be to run 1 Engineered Plague over 1 Krosan Grip, but Krosan Grip is probably better.

I think I'd probably want to board in Enlightened Tutor against Goblins in order to get Deed, against combo (and possibly Landstill) to get Counterbalance or Sensei's Divining Top, and against Ichorid to get Tormod's Crypt.

I never know exactly what to take out when sideboarding. How do you sideboard against Goblins, Combo, Landstill, and Ichorid with regular ITF builds?

My loose idea is take out 2 Counterspell, 4 Intuition, and 1 Engineered Explosives for 4 Blue Elemental Blast and 3 Enlightened Tutor against Goblins, take out 3 Pernicious Deeds for 3 Enlightened Tutor against Combo, take out 2 Engineered Explosives and a Pernicious Deed for 3 Enlightened Tutor against Landstill, and take out 4 Counterbalance and 3 Intuition for 4 Tormod's Crypt and 3 Enlightened Tutor against Ichorid. Again, that's completely untested and off-the-cuff. Don't shoot me down for my sideboarding strategy--shoot me down if you think Enlightened Tutor is a bad idea.

On the other hand, sideboarding advice for these matchups would be helpful.

[frogboy]

You probably want access to a Deed against combo, particularly if you have Tutor, because it can hit their mana.

[brattin]

Good call. I've never actually played against combo. I was figuring Counterbalance and Top were of critical importance, and that by the time they were playing Lion's Eye Diamond and Chrome Mox and so forth they'd probably be trying to go off and so destroying them wouldn't matter much. Guess I'm wrong.

Swords to Plowshares is pretty useless against combo, right? Maybe I'd take them out.

[chokin]

You probably want access to a Deed against combo, particularly if you have Tutor, because it can hit their mana.

As does EE for cheaper. 3 mana vs 2 mana. Comes back through Ruins. But it truly depends on what combo deck you are playing against. Assembling CB Top will help if you can get it fast enough.

[aTn]

I think I'd probably want to board in Enlightened Tutor against Goblins in order to get Deed

A detail: In my experience, Deed is not very good against Goblins (i.e. too slow... you need to activate Deed @ 3 or sometimes 4 or 5 to whipe the board).

I think E.Tutor is a good idea. I'll test it to see if it works.

[landstill101]

A detail: In my experience, Deed is not very good against Goblins (i.e. too slow... you need to activate Deed @ 3 or sometimes 4 or 5 to whipe the board).

I think E.Tutor is a good idea. I'll test it to see if it works.

actually deed is great for goblins,specially with swords and goyf, you just selectivly keep off the big shit like piledrivers and lackeys to slow him down and drop the deed to wipe the board, Deed is one of the main reasons landstill can actually beat goblins.

To the man that says we lose 100% of the time to goblins, you need to reconsider this, I've played against very good goblins pilots(many of them are top 25 in ohio for legacy) and have won 2-0 no problem, you just need to be selective with your swords and blow board with deed, also shackles is amazing in this matchup, plus if your on the go, dropping an explosives for 1 is a huge shocker for your opponent. This matchup really comes down to what things you kill, because if you go crazy and hit everyone as quickly as possible, you leave the able to come back with ringleader, but if you are selective, just enough to keep them from overruning, you can drop the deed turn 3 or 4 and be able to blow the board safely and then drop a goyf for chucks and giggles

[aTn]

actually deed is great for goblins,specially with swords and goyf, you just selectivly keep off the big shit like piledrivers and lackeys to slow him down and drop the deed to wipe the board, Deed is one of the main reasons landstill can actually beat goblins.

I've been sucessful against Goblins in the past (when I played Landstill), but I didn't really use Deed that much to win. EE on the other hand was great getting rid of Vials, etc.


To the man that says we lose 100% of the time to goblins, you need to reconsider this,

Hope you're not referring to me, because I disagree with that statement 100% :)

I've also played against very good Goblin players and I'd say the match-up is not that hard, but not an auto-win.

I agree Shackles kicks arse in that match-up. In testing, the ITF build I proposed has put up some good results against Goblins. Tombstalkers help a lot...

[landstill101]

I've been sucessful against Goblins in the past (when I played Landstill), but I didn't really use Deed that much to win. EE on the other hand was great getting rid of Vials, etc.



I have also found EE to be very helpful, as mentioned its a huge shock on the face of a goblin player to see you drop an ee first turn for 1.


Hope you're not referring to me, because I disagree with that statement 100% :)


nope, I was referring to esmandil who in his post right before your said it is a 100% autoloss first game


I've also played against very good Goblin players and I'd say the match-up is not that hard, but not an auto-win.

I completely agree

[Pelikanudo]

can anyone tell me how to side excatly vs landstill?

[chokin]

can anyone tell me how to side excatly vs landstill?

Depends on the build I think. Personally, I board to stop Wastelock. I put Krosan Grip in against most builds in case they resolve a Crucible or can drop a Deed when you have a nice board advantage. Extirpate (run in some builds which I'm still mixed on) can rip away whatever you feel is threatening.

You can take out StP if they don't have Goyf since there's a lack of targets. Same with Shackles. That should give you plenty of slots.

[Nastaboi]

I finished second in my country's unofficial Legacy Championships (49 players) with this deck. I played:

1. Ub Stiflenought 1-0-1
2. Ad Nauseam combo 1-2
3. MonoU Stiflenought 2-0
4. Rgb Aggro 2-0
5. Bug Aggro control 2-1
6. Rb Goblins ID
T8 Ugb Threshold 2-1
T4 Ugr Stiflenought 2-1
Finals MonoB Aggro 0-2 (1st game GL for drawing an extra card when in complete control, 2nd wrong mulligan decision + really tough luck. 10 hours of playing Magic takes its prize).

I played Deep6er's MD and SB with 'seizes instead of Spell Snares. Grips and Blasts were golden, Crypts were not needed, but might have been. Thoughtseizes came in there and then, but were not really needed outside combo MU. Might try Chants instead. I'd side those Snares against Tarmogoyf decks, if they did a little more against combo. Their general usefulness might still win in the long run.

Witness and Shackles were not needed in the tournament. Consider dropping them for a fetch and maybe a Counterspell.

[Ch@os]

Can you plz post the list again?
And without Witness or Shackles, how does you intuition piles look like?

thx

[Blitzbold]

It should be this one (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=21670).

[Spare Parts]

This is my present list, feel free to bash :)


// Lands
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
1 Breeding Pool
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
2 Windswept Heath
1 Island
1 Academy Ruins

// Creatures
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Etched Oracle

// Spells
2 Engineered Explosives
3 Pernicious Deed
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Intuition
1 Life from the Loam
4 Counterbalance
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Spell Snare
2 Counterspell
1 Vedalken Shackles

// Sideboard
2 Krosan Grip
4 Hydroblast
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Circle of Protection: Red
3 Stifle

I hated Eternal Witness big time (double green, always got stp-ed in important matchups), Etched Oracle does her job better when it has to and (big upside) can be recurred with Academy Ruins, thus rendering Volrath's Stonghold almost unnecessary (I have recurred goyf like 2 times so far?). This improved my manabase a lot, reducing number of 2 land combinations that doesn't allow me to have UU in the 2nd turn (and I hate when that happens even more than I do hate Eternal Witness :D).

I was playtesting version with Thoughtseizes in the main, I liked it on the paper but actual performance was underwhelming (this may be because of what my local metagame looks like, lots of Burn and Zoo everywhere...) and I switched from 4 to 2 and then had to cut them all. Same is true with Tombstalkers, I didn't manage to find room for them - I had to fulfill my quotas of 2cc and 3cc spells for CB, so stalker had to go.

I don't like my sideboard at all, it just doesn't feel right... I have obvious blasts and grips, 3x crypt to hate on ichorid (and 3 is the magical number for Intuition) but those CoP and Stifles... eh.

I need some solutions for Burn, Zoo (and all other decks with Price of Progress maindeck), Belcher and Nauseam Tendrils which are matchups that in my testing doesn't favor me, and Stifles and CoPs are the only cards I managed to come up with. That's why I'm open to all suggestions...

[Serbitar]

Even if you cut Eternal Witness (which might be debatable), do not cut Stronghold. Recurring Goyfs might not be needed beatdownwise, but they certainly improve Counterbalance.

Also Shackles is such a great card and should not be cut. It wins so many matchups singlehandedly, gives you more game against Goblins (and the like).

I won a 20 man tournament yesterday with Deep6er's maindeck and the following board:
3 BEB
3 Duress (should be Thoughtseize)
3 Krosan Grip
2 Nevinyrral's Disk
4 Crypt

I won against Goblins (close), Dreaded Fish, Thresh, with a loss (due to mistake) against Bitterblossom/Contamination Suicide, and an ID.
Top8 I won against Aggro-Elves (real bad matchup), Ad Nauseam (2x CB/Top turn 2) and another Suicide Black.
As a special note, the final game I won even though he extirpated Goyf :tongue:

[Spare Parts]

Even if you cut Eternal Witness (which might be debatable), do not cut Stronghold. Recurring Goyfs might not be needed beatdownwise, but they certainly improve Counterbalance.

Also Shackles is such a great card and should not be cut. It wins so many matchups singlehandedly, gives you more game against Goblins (and the like).

I won a 20 man tournament yesterday with Deep6er's maindeck and the following board:
3 BEB
3 Duress (should be Thoughtseize)
3 Krosan Grip
2 Nevinyrral's Disk
4 Crypt

I won against Goblins (close), Dreaded Fish, Thresh, with a loss (due to mistake) against Bitterblossom/Contamination Suicide, and an ID.
Top8 I won against Aggro-Elves (real bad matchup), Ad Nauseam (2x CB/Top turn 2) and another Suicide Black.
As a special note, the final game I won even though he extirpated Goyf :tongue:Congratulations on your finish!

About Volrath's Stonghold: I know all of the benefits, but problem with running colorless mana sources in this deck is this - we absolutely NEED two colored mana sources by turn two (CB, counterspell, EE) and those colorless lands (even if awesome lategame) cause mana stability problems. The less the better. Academy Ruins are impossible to cut, obviously, but Stronghold's importance is greatly diminished with the loss of Witness.

Ad Shackles: I don't know if this was aimed at me, but surely I didn't cut Shackles and neither I am planning to. The card is too important to achieve and keep late game advantage, gives us a game against Goblins g1 and provides us with an additional kill condition.

What is the Nev Disk in the SB for? Just Dragon Stompy? Otherwise I don't see point in sideboarding "worse" global effects when already playing Deeds.

Adan: ah, thanks, I must have missed it.

[Adan]

What is the Nev Disk in the SB for? Just Dragon Stompy? Otherwise I don't see point in sideboarding "worse" global effects when already playing Deeds.

->


I have no idea whether I should play Disks or not. Are they good against anything else beside Dragonstompy?


Disk was pretty insane against Stax, but mainly it was there to blow Dragon Stompy out of the water. So, no, not really.

If you have a fair bit of Dragon Stompy (it probably helps against Moon Threshold as well), then I would recommend Disk, if not, then I'd recommend dropping them for something else.

;-)

[Serbitar]

Disk was also really great against Bitterblossom/Contamination. As already mentioned, permanent based decks also come to mind.

The comment about Shackles was rather aimed at someone, a few posts back, who didn't like it and considered cutting it.

[Nastaboi]

It should be this one (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=21670).

Snap, I was caught.

Shackles is randomly good, but I feel it as training wheels for the deck. Goblins are not widely played here, but if testing shows that it's needed in there then it'll stay.

Aside basic 3 balance/3 top I usually went for Loam/Ruins/EE or more often Loam/Stronghold/Oracle. Had drawn one of the pieces, I replaced it with Tarmogoyf or something with the other pile. Just make the pile so that you can start recurring something, or setting up counter-top.

[Atog]

Hi!

I'm just getting started to playing this deck and i have some questions:

1) Could somebody tell some gamestrategics against usual dtb decks? Like thresh, goblins, loam, eva green, Meathooks etc. Just how to play, play aggressive or defensive and most important what to counter.

2) Is that Eternall Witness useless?

3) What is our strong matchups and worst matchups? Dredge is quite bad but what else?

Thanks who bother to answer :)

[jazzykat]

Strategies: Play the hell out of the deck SLOWLY and consider what you can actually do. Meaning, there are so many possibilities on every turn and matchup usually that someone would spend a very long time documenting them all.

This deck is unforgiving and requires more thought than other other MTG deck I have played. However, if you play perfectly you can win against almost anything.

Eternal Witness: It depends who you ask. I think she serves a purpose besides having a CC of 3. The times I got her with intuition I am not sure if I needed her but I wouldn't cut her personally.

Best/Worst Matchups: Read through the thread. If you play perfect you have a shot at most of the field. This deck doesn't auto lose to much.

[Atog]

Strategies: Play the hell out of the deck SLOWLY and consider what you can actually do. Meaning, there are so many possibilities on every turn and matchup usually that someone would spend a very long time documenting them all.

This deck is unforgiving and requires more thought than other other MTG deck I have played. However, if you play perfectly you can win against almost anything.

Eternal Witness: It depends who you ask. I think she serves a purpose besides having a CC of 3. The times I got her with intuition I am not sure if I needed her but I wouldn't cut her personally.

Best/Worst Matchups: Read through the thread. If you play perfect you have a shot at most of the field. This deck doesn't auto lose to much.

Ok, thanks :) I thinked that too today, and realize that i just need to play, play and play some more. Is there some better card in spell snares slot (2x spell snare)? I play same list that Nastaboi.

[chokin]

Didn't Spell Snare feel really narrow? I think the counter set of 4-4-2 FoW Daze CS was plenty, not to mention the lack of room. If I had extra room, I'd either throw in more removal (maybe an Edict effect or head the direction of Team America and run Snuff Out), discard (meh...), or another threat (Stalker?).

I suppose Snare really is meta dependent though. But if it was better than CS where you were playing, I'd say drop CS and just play Snares in place of them.

@ Spare Parts - How'd you like CoP? I've done Chills before, but I didn't like it. Do you think that more BEBs would do better until you get CB online?

[Atog]

Didn't Spell Snare feel really narrow? I think the counter set of 4-4-2 FoW Daze CS was plenty, not to mention the lack of room. If I had extra room, I'd either throw in more removal (maybe an Edict effect or head the direction of Team America and run Snuff Out), discard (meh...), or another threat (Stalker?).

I suppose Snare really is meta dependent though. But if it was better than CS where you were playing, I'd say drop CS and just play Snares in place of them.

@ Spare Parts - How'd you like CoP? I've done Chills before, but I didn't like it. Do you think that more BEBs would do better until you get CB online?

What list do you play? In my list there is no dazes, so i'm just curious what my list have in dazes spot :)

[Spare Parts]

Didn't Spell Snare feel really narrow? I think the counter set of 4-4-2 FoW Daze CS was plenty, not to mention the lack of room. If I had extra room, I'd either throw in more removal (maybe an Edict effect or head the direction of Team America and run Snuff Out), discard (meh...), or another threat (Stalker?).

I suppose Snare really is meta dependent though. But if it was better than CS where you were playing, I'd say drop CS and just play Snares in place of them.

@ Spare Parts - How'd you like CoP? I've done Chills before, but I didn't like it. Do you think that more BEBs would do better until you get CB online?Spell Snare tend to perform better than Counterspell IMO, but we desperately need to maintain all the 2drops we can to increase the probability of blind CB and having the 2 mana drop in the top 3 after shuffle. I already put some thought into replacing CS with Daze, thus leaving number of 2drops intact and helping us with our early turns, where ITF is most vulnerable (my metagame is heavy heavy aggro with almost no stax nor 'still).

@ CoP: Still not ready to "judge", today I am going to test it against Goblins, which I am a little bit afraid of. It is, however, an absolute star against Burn and against Goyf sligh, which are otherwise bad matchups for ITF (CB + Top is usually too slow and PoP deals 6-8 damage at least).

[jazzykat]

@atog: I suggest you use one of the first lists by Deep6er and then when you feel like you have enough experience with the deck you can take it in other directions.

[chokin]

What list do you play? In my list there is no dazes, so i'm just curious what my list have in dazes spot :)

Holy shit I can't believe I tarded out like that. I meant 4-2, FoW and CS. I think I somehow managed to think of a mix between Dreadstill and ITF so I /fail.

My list is the standard build.

Back to Spell Snare, if it works in your meta due to a high number of 2cc spells, awesome...play it. I've just never had a spell I wasn't able to answer other than when Reanimator pulls out an SSS or Red Akroma which is why I might end up trying to add an Edict or Snuff somewhere in the maindeck.

On CoP:R, although it reads :1: : totally negate a burn spell or stop a red dude, it's pretty mana intensive. CB+Top stop burn in a very similar fashion, but leaves you more vulnerable to red dudes. That's why I think BEB would do better. Just destroy it. So BEB+CBTop does the job. Add more slots if you need it. I've gone up to 6 when the meta is heavy in red. Chill was kind of a fail. So IMO CBTop > BEB > CoP > Chill for me.

[Spare Parts]

On CoP:R, although it reads :1: : totally negate a burn spell or stop a red dude, it's pretty mana intensive. CB+Top stop burn in a very similar fashion, but leaves you more vulnerable to red dudes. That's why I think BEB would do better. Just destroy it. So BEB+CBTop does the job. Add more slots if you need it. I've gone up to 6 when the meta is heavy in red. Chill was kind of a fail. So IMO CBTop > BEB > CoP > Chill for me.I already have 4 Pyroblasts/BEB in the sb, I just like versatility rather than having 7x "the-same-card" in the sideboard :) ... it may or may not be better, it is probably only a matter of personal preference.

Today I playtested 2x Daze in the place of Counterspell and it worked out well (remember, my metagame has like "gillion bagillions of aggro decks"). If your metagame is aggro heavy as well, try it out.

[Blitzbold]

In my experience - though more driven by UGw Thresh - CB-Top + 4 BEB + 4/s Counters + the ability to sword an own guy is enough to win against burnish decks. They really need a busted start to deal 20 through your defenses fast enough.

I was also thinking about Daze <> Counterspell, as Daze helps the deck going to where it wants to be - the mid- and late-game. On the other hand this is where Counterspell really shines and where CB-Top sometimes won't do the job. I am still biased though, as the deck has solutions to anything that might slip through later in the game. By the way, this topic highlights that this deck really needs to be played very tight and answers / solution / resources need to be planned thoroughly (read: much more in comparison to some other decks).

[Nastaboi]

Daze absolutely does not help you to reach lategame as it sets you back a whole turn in land drops. All you ever want to do is play lands every turn until you reach a critical mass and somehow survive until then. Using Daze in the very deck is Time Walking your opponent.

[Atog]

I already have 4 Pyroblasts/BEB in the sb, I just like versatility rather than having 7x "the-same-card" in the sideboard :) ... it may or may not be better, it is probably only a matter of personal preference.

Today I playtested 2x Daze in the place of Counterspell and it worked out well (remember, my metagame has like "gillion bagillions of aggro decks"). If your metagame is aggro heavy as well, try it out.

IMO daze must be played 4x or none. Yes, you can pitch it to FoW but late game that is too often dead card. It shines at beginning of game but then again you want to play full set. I think i try Spell Snares in counterspell slot, cause in my meta i see Eva Green, Goblins, Pox and Thresh. So all those deck run enought 2-drops to run Snare.

[Spare Parts]

I have just returned from a small Legacy tournament where i grabbed first price (4 Sinkholes) with ITF. The tournament was small (only 13 players) but it wont stop me from providing you with a brief tournament report:

1st round: ANT. 1st game I kept hand with 2 StP, goyf and Daze (I didn't know what I am up against), he Duressed me and went off. 2nd game I managed to assemble CB+Top and win, 3rd game I was lucky with blind CB (I had a FoW in hand, but my opp told me later that it wouldn't be enough) and proceeded to win after tutoring Top next turn.
2:1, 1-0-0

2nd round: Armageddon Stax. 1st game I got badly screwed by Armageddon, but afterwards I had enough turns to topdeck 3 mana sources and drop Deed. I blew up his Chalice @1 and @2 (I had 3 StP a 2 Brainstom in hand by that time) along with the rest of his permanents and two 6/7 goyfs finished the job. 2nd game he didn't show much resistance to my disruption, even though Suppresson Fields were giving me headaches.
2:0, 2-0-0

3rd round: Goyf Stompy variant with white splash for Nacatl. My opponent was playing PoP and even a few Vexing Shushers in the main, but I got lucky - both games he had to mulligan (though 1st game we both went to 5) and he had no 1st turn drops, I drew enough StP to contain his creatures and assembled lock.
2:0, 3-0-0

4th round: BG Rock. I was backpedalling the whole 1st game but didn't manage to slow him down enough. He drew 3 Wastelands and his Troll Ascetics finished work on my life total (Ascetic is surprisingly hard to answer - if his owner doesn't tap out, I have no way how to actually kill him). G2 I won after a long war of attrition (he had Genesis in gy, but finally I managed to CB+top handle it). 3rd game he drew "the nuts" and I drew like ... well.. lands. 8 lands to 4 spells to be exact, one of them being LftL. And got Thoughtseized 1st turn.
1:2, 3-1-0

5th round: I was paired down against 6points opp, and I managed to talk him into a draw.
3-1-1

Top4:
Goyf stompy I already played against, I managed to win in similar manner to the basic portion of the tournament (and I was quite lucky to draw both Spell Snares for his two PoP in the 2nd game).

Finals: Monoblack aggro (Sinkholes, Duress, Hymn, Dark Ritual - the usual suspects). We split the prizes and went home (:

My decklist (I posted it just a page back, but oh well I know you are lazy):
// Lands
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
1 Breeding Pool
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
1 Island
1 Academy Ruins
2 Windswept Heath
//\\
// Creatures
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Etched Oracle
//\\
// Spells
2 Engineered Explosives
3 Pernicious Deed
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Intuition
1 Life from the Loam
4 Counterbalance
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Spell Snare
1 Vedalken Shackles
2 Daze
//\\
// Sideboard
2 Krosan Grip
4 Hydroblast
3 Circle of Protection: Red
3 Stifle
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Pithing Needle

And my comments on unusual card choices: I absolutely did not miss Eternal Witness. Not yet sure about Stronghold, but I like having minimum of colorless lands screwing up my draws. 2 Daze were great, and I like it a lot more than CS in this slot. A lot of people will disagree, but I played it and I was happy with it every time I drew it. And late game? Well, that's why we have SDT in the deck...
Sideboard: I didn't play any of the standard GY hate because I knew there won't be any Ichorid (Relic was as one-of against slower graveyard recursions - Genesis, Crucible, ...) Pithing Needle I felt was totally unneccesary, even more because we are playing 5 sweepers (and you can't switch off opponent's Top).
CoP:Red worked quite well, but I may switch back to 6-7 blasts - it's easier to play with, doesn't tie your mana and helps against blood moon effects.

[Serbitar]

Not saying 'play the conventional maindeck', but I think there should be a 4th Intuition (which is one of the reasons to play this deck; probably over Daze?) and the Relic in the Board should be Crypt, so as not to mess with your own recursion plans. I also don't get the Stifles in the board. Are they for storm? If so, they are less then stellar against Ad Nauseam (which will always find Chant). I would prefer Thoughtseize in this slot, which is stronger against Combo and has other uses (e.g. DragonStompy on the play).

So I'd suggest (apart from the mana base):
MD: -2 Daze, +1 Intuition, +1 Spell Snare (not sure if that leaves you with too few 2cc for CB)
SB: -1 Relic of Progenitus, +1 Tormod's Crypt, -3 Stifle, +3 Thoughtseize (CoP: Red seems also narrow?)

But congrats, and nice price support for a 13ppl tournament!

[Spare Parts]

Not saying 'play the conventional maindeck', but I think there should be a 4th Intuition (which is one of the reasons to play this deck; probably over Daze?) and the Relic in the Board should be Crypt, so as not to mess with your own recursion plans. I also don't get the Stifles in the board. Are they for storm? If so, they are less then stellar against Ad Nauseam (which will always find Chant). I would prefer Thoughtseize in this slot, which is stronger against Combo and has other uses (e.g. DragonStompy on the play).

So I'd suggest (apart from the mana base):
MD: -2 Daze, +1 Intuition, +1 Spell Snare (not sure if that leaves you with too few 2cc for CB)
SB: -1 Relic of Progenitus, +1 Tormod's Crypt, -3 Stifle, +3 Thoughtseize (CoP: Red seems also narrow?)

But congrats, and nice price support for a 13ppl tournament!It should have been like 30ppl tournament, but people didn't show up. :cry:

Relic of Progenitus has 2 abilities, I did not plan to use the "global" one (I knew there is no Ichorid/Survival/aggro-loam in the room) rather only milling one card per turn against landstill/stax.
As for Stifle <> Thoughtseize, you are probably right. Stifle looks great on the paper, but ANT always starts combo with either Duress or Chant.
CoP:R will be BEB in the future, yeah.

But as for maindeck suggestions, I quite like the deck the way it is now. In aggro metagame I hate drawing 2 Intuitions in the opening hand, and Daze is important in keeping enough 2drops in the deck (not to forget I was highly satisfied with Daze's performance whole day).

Thanks for the criticism, it made me realize some points I did not see till now.

[Serbitar]

I still believe you would want Crypt. Even against slow recursion, by the time you have found the one of Relic (probably by Intuitioning for Loam, Ruins, Relic) the opponent's graveyard will be full enough, so that the one card removed per turn (and they choose which) won't matter quick enough generally. And an emergeny-sacced Relic cannot be recurred.

You are right about the curve. My suggestions would bring it to 14-9-8 (currently 13-11-7), which is too light on twos, especially considering you cannot stronghold Tarmogoyf.

[frogboy]

I did not plan to use the "global" one (I knew there is no Ichorid/Survival/aggro-loam in the room) rather only milling one card per turn against landstill/stax.

Scrabbling Claws, Phyrexian Furnace?

[Spare Parts]

Scrabbling Claws, Phyrexian Furnace?Well I can defend my choice by stating some random obvious facts and making up some unprobable scenarios, but truth is that this choice was made only a few minutes before the start of the tournament (when my scouting showed me there are no heavy GY reliant strategies present) and I did not have Furnace nor Claws with me. Otherwise I would rather use Phyrexian Furnace.

[Citrus-God]

I just got back from playtesting Circle of Protection: Red. It's also pretty bloody good against Dragon Stompy. Stalls to oblivion. Sit there, drop EE, pop that bitch, then just win. But an even better idea is to increase the number of BEBs in the deck. BEBs are still good against combo, but I already 4 copies of those in my SB. It may need some fixing though...

My maindeck is the same as Deep6er's, but with a Breeding Pool in the place of a Trop. My SB is

1 Vedalken Shackles (Thresh)
3 Krosan Grip (Thresh, Enchantress, various oddities)
2 Hydroblast (Look at BEB)
2 Blue Elemental Blast (Goyf Sligh, TES, Burn, Vial Goblins, DStompy)
3 Circle of Protection: Red (Goyf Sligh, Burn, Vial Goblins, DStompy)
4 Duress (Landstill, Combo, Thresh while I'm on the play)

[jeanbathez]

I'am having problems with my meta, and have been thinking about working on my SB for it.
I'am playing Deep6ers list and SB.

In my meta there are a lot of wastelands f.e. Aggroloam and Staxx. Some games are won by cb, but sometime they just screw me away. I thought of adding 2 life from the loam to the SB ?

But last week, that was too much :
Last round against BW-Control, game 1 he begins with leyline of the void main WTF ??? About a long time i thought i had him, with shackles for his eternal dragon, but then he profane coammds me for 18 and me haveing no force.....
His curve was so high my cb had nearly no hits, so i put it in my SB and two of the tops. Do you think that was right ?
Game 2 he starts with needle on top.:frown:

My question : what can i do if cb doesn't hit because my opponents curve, and plan b gravejard is also attacked, means no stronghold, no ruins, i can't intuition for shackles..., i'am not sure but just think just try to outplay him and hope the best ?

[Serbitar]

Especially against slow control Counterbalance can be crucial, because you need to kill them with Goyf sooner or later (if he is slow the sooner the better). The removal for him should usually be 1-3cc with the exception of Wrath, which you can Force, CSpell.

[landstill101]

I'am having problems with my meta, and have been thinking about working on my SB for it.
I'am playing Deep6ers list and SB.

In my meta there are a lot of wastelands f.e. Aggroloam and Staxx. Some games are won by cb, but sometime they just screw me away. I thought of adding 2 life from the loam to the SB ?

But last week, that was too much :
Last round against BW-Control, game 1 he begins with leyline of the void main WTF ??? About a long time i thought i had him, with shackles for his eternal dragon, but then he profane coammds me for 18 and me haveing no force.....
His curve was so high my cb had nearly no hits, so i put it in my SB and two of the tops. Do you think that was right ?
Game 2 he starts with needle on top.:frown:

My question : what can i do if cb doesn't hit because my opponents curve, and plan b gravejard is also attacked, means no stronghold, no ruins, i can't intuition for shackles..., i'am not sure but just think just try to outplay him and hope the best ?

As mentioned in the post before, most of his removal will be in the 1-3 range which is still counterable, and if you are running the same version as gearhart, then you should have 2 explosives and 3 deeds which should be more than enough to take out the void and let the grave yard game back, and you should never ever take out tops, even if you don't use them for counterbalance, it is still great for searching, which will help you get to those board sweepers or the shackles. The deck is powerful enough it can win without using graveyard or cb because of goyf and sooo much sweepers. When you get to decks like this, you need to keep your counters for things like void and command, and don't be afraid to use a deed on 1 creature, eventhough it is not the most economical way.

[landstill101]

Ok sooo I played in a 17 man tourny last night with this list:

lands: 21
4 polluted delta
3 flooded strand
4 tropical island
3 underground sea
2 tundra
1 bayou
1 forest
1 island
1 volrath's stronghold
1 academy ruins

The Rest:
3 sensei's divining top
4 counterbalance
4 force of will
3 counterspell
3 intuition
4 brainstorm
4 tarmogoyf
1 eternal witness
1 etched oracle
1 life from the loam
4 swords to plowshares
3 pernicious deed
2 engineered explosives
2 vedalken shackles

Sideboard:
4 tormod's crypt
4 blue elemental blast
3 krosan grip
4 mind harness


I went 4-0-1 in the rounds facing:

Dragon stompy: First game he got first turn moon, and I didnt have an answer, soo I scooped. second game, I fetched for a island and said go, he dropped a blood moon. I played a another land. He played dragon, I stole with mind harness, and killed him with it. Third game, I countered first turn moon, swords his mauler and dropped a goyf for the win.

ad nausium:

First game, he killed me turn 2 through a force
second game, using infernal contract and city of brass put him to 1, then went off and only got to 16 storm count and put me to 1 then I dropped a goyf an killed him in 4 turns.
third game, he went off first turn and went ad nausium and had the worst ad nausium ive ever seen seeing the other ad, the warrens, the gains, and tendrils and only seeing 2 petals with no mana floating and nothing else to produce mana and killed himself.(pretty easy match for me, I didn't do a thing)

dreadstill:
umm both games were pretty easy, I was able to get down CB top both games by mid game, stablized and won no prob, had to break 3 standstills in the 2 games.

red thresh tempo:
we were the only 2 undefeated. First game was a huge counter war/blow board too many times and such and eventually I get down a shackles and a deed. he plays a mongoose(I dont see a creature or anything in top 3. So I blow deed. We sit for 2 turns, then he plays a goyf, I steal, I attack, then on his next turn he plays double goyf. Then I drop my second shackles an he gives me this look like I just shot him and I steal the other goyf, sword his goyf and kill in 2 turns. Second game I got the recursion game quickly and finished him off late after killing everything he has.

last game was againt 4c threshold but we just drew so we both would make finals


For playoffs, I faced 42 lands, and well I just want to say I hate this matchup every time. I'm not gonna type a 2 page paper on how I lost but I won the first, lost the second, and the third I made a mistake making a choice of using hte turn to play loam to get more lands than swordsing one of their creatures(when i had a another land in hand and was able to play loam next turn and would hav done the same thing) and lost literally by 1 life, because the turn after if he couldnt kill me I was going to drop a deed and go for the kill. Oh well.

I feel that my deck list is pretty close to optimal for me, still working a little bit on the land. The sideboard is still in work, and addition of mind harness has been HUGE, and I actually prefer it over disk for the stompy matchup.

[jazzykat]

I feel that my deck list is pretty close to optimal for me, still working a little bit on the land. The sideboard is still in work, and addition of mind harness has been HUGE, and I actually prefer it over disk for the stompy matchup.


The biggest thing I noticed is that you deviated slightly from the original manabase in composition (bayou, basic forest) and cut it down to 21 land from 23. I love the idea of having a 2nd shackles and 3rd. counterspell but do you honestly feel that this deck can support only 21 lands? You also cut 1 intuition, how is that working out for you? I mean at least with 23 lands I always had 3 mana up by turn 3 and once intuition resolved the game was well on its way to being over....

While I haven't tested your list, I played the ever living hell out of Deep6er's and I am curious if you did before you made those changes.

[landstill101]

I actually Started testing the deck the first time he won with it and it was posted on here soo I gues I've been testing his list since may 26(wow thats my birthday) I tested all the lists since the first with psycotog. And I loved the idea of oracle, which got me away from tog, but i've hated the removal of a shackles and always loved the 3 amount of intuition.

Before I played ITF I played landstill(obv cuz of my name) and played it alot and well and I played with only 22 in landstill with 4 factories and 2 monastaries, and I played alot of threshold, So I guess my natural playing style has always prefered having less lands, and it seems to be working for me.

One of the main reasons I have said that is optimal for me is because most people always disagree with my manabases but the list has almost gotten me over 19000 points in the rankings, so It has proven itself to be very successful(oh and the red tempo deck that I beat won the tourny lol)

[jeanbathez]

@landstill101, Sebitär : Thanks for your answers. They were helpful.

I thought about it, i think game 1 was just unlucky and me not playing very tight..., but starting the game with leyline in play and needling my top is hard, but my problem was not to find my shackles and my goyfs were small because of the line, and it takes very long to remove his line because i had an explosives but only 3 c :frown: . But i think those games happen...

Game 2 i threw away with bad SB choises and keeping a hand, which was only good with my only top in hand (the other 2 were out > bad idea, will never do that again). And his first turn move with needle on top again....

What do you think, in my meta there are a lot of wastelands and loamdecks and stax, are 2 SB-Slots for 2 Life from the Loam useful ?

[jazzykat]

I'am having problems with my meta, and have been thinking about working on my SB for it.
I'am playing Deep6ers list and SB.

In my meta there are a lot of wastelands f.e. Aggroloam and Staxx. Some games are won by cb, but sometime they just screw me away. I thought of adding 2 life from the loam to the SB ?

But last week, that was too much :
Last round against BW-Control, game 1 he begins with leyline of the void main WTF ??? About a long time i thought i had him, with shackles for his eternal dragon, but then he profane coammds me for 18 and me haveing no force.....
His curve was so high my cb had nearly no hits, so i put it in my SB and two of the tops. Do you think that was right ?
Game 2 he starts with needle on top.:frown:

My question : what can i do if cb doesn't hit because my opponents curve, and plan b gravejard is also attacked, means no stronghold, no ruins, i can't intuition for shackles..., i'am not sure but just think just try to outplay him and hope the best ?

Regarding the black deck that profaned for 18, I think you may have misassigned your role. My guess is that you should have been the beat down because by the time he was able to generate that much mana an eternal witness unmolested could have taken it home...

I play aggro-loam and have played against it with ITF so let me hit the high points.
- you have explosives to quickly clear their chalice AND diamonds
- If they have discard then counterbalance will own them
- StP/explosives is going to kill their first early threat.
- You have a basic plains and 2 basic islands, with those you can intuition up your loam and get things going.
- Play tight with your fetches DO NOT crack them unless you need them as you will want to get your deed online at some point
- CB with a 2CC floating PWNS Aggro-Loam, they need an answer to deal with that.
- You even have a lot of 3 CC which is rather devastating to Aggro-Loam
- If you can get it going you can recurr witness/StP and eat up their few threats so they can't get them back.

You have a lot of outs here, and remember they have to have huge balls to DD against a blue deck unless their discard clears the way.

Vs. Stax

Deed >>>>> Than their deck....
Loam helps too
Play tight to get a deed down in time and go 2 for 1 or usually MUCH better.
Also don't be afraid to throw a goyf down early if you have nothing else to do, they take a lot of damage to set up their lock with tombs and it is another permanent until you get deed!
Stop their armageddon at all costs.

[SuperBean]

I've been toying with a deck list, and this is what I've come up so far. A little different then the most recent ones.

Creatures:

3x Tarmogoyf
3x Eternal Dragon
2x Eternal Witness

Instants:

4x Brainstorm
4x Force of Will
4x Daze
4x Stifle
4x Swords to Plowshares
2x Counterspell
1x Crop Rotation

Sorceries:

1x Life from the Loam

Enchantments:

3x CounterBalance

Artifacts:

3x Sense's Divining Top
2x Engineered Explosives

Land:

3x Polluted Delta
3x Windswept Heath
3x Tundra
3x Tropical Island
3x Mishra's Factory
2x Underground Sea
2x Island
1x Volrath's Stronghold

Sideboard:

3x Chalice of the Void
3x Pithing Needle
3x Tormod's Crypt
3x Krosan Grip
2x Compost
1x Moat

[Citrus-God]

This deck isn't It's the Fear at all. It's the Fear is also Intuition based in addition to it's utilization of CB/Top.

[jeanbathez]

@jazzykat : Thank you for your help !!! I had some of the thoughts too, but wasn't sure if they were right, i'am not sooo good in legacy.

Played against both decks again, at a small event, and this time it went much better.
He hadn't the leyline/Needle Start, and this time i played much better, and my SB-Plan was o.k., so it was 2:0 :smile:

Against staxx, game 1 i won on the back of loam, game 2 he had 3 Wastelands in the first turns :eek: and i no fetchlands and basics, game 3 was even, but he had the better end, he resolved a trinisphere and so my forces weren't that good. But next time it will get better !!!

[Ch@os]

So, any new thoughts on the deck?
It performs very well, but noone plays it XD
Why is that, any bad matchups i dont expect?

[Serbitar]

I think it just passed on the 'new and sexyness' to Team America, which, for most people, seems to perform better. (This is obv. not saying, that beyond 'hype' there is nothing to either deck) There also has not really be any consensus-innovation to the MD, which is really tight.

The problematic matchups from my playing experience are creature heavy aggro (Goblins, (Survival)Elves, probably Merfolk) and heavy land disruption (TA, Thrash, Loam?, DStompy?). The combo matchup is shaky too, since just Forces before Counterbalance is often not enough, and even against lategame decks you can have some problems (Decree of Justice). That sounds like a lot, but you actually have quite some game against those. The last tournament I played It's the Fear the one game I lost was due to a misplay (actually the same the tournament before that - just a different mistake).

I also have no experience, what all the Relics now in people's sideboards will do to this deck. I imagine it rather being a nuisiance, but not being able to Intuition freely might be a problem.

[landstill101]

So, any new thoughts on the deck?
It performs very well, but noone plays it XD
Why is that, any bad matchups i dont expect?
One of the main reasons why it isn't played as much is because of the level of difficulty to play.... because even the best players will pick the deck up and not win the first time and then throw it out saying its bad, but for the people who play teh deck more often can attest to saying that with some practice the deck performs great.. just like serbiter was talking about, he didn't lose games because of bad matchups, he lost to mistakes, which is the same reason I went 5-0 in a tourny then lost first round of playoffs on a wrong move, which I looked back realized and learned from, and hopefully wont make the same mistake again.

I wouldn't go soo far as to say that it has problems against aggro or heavy LD decks but your need to play perfectly and very tight to win. Really your only really shaky matchup is against combo.

[Spare Parts]

third game, he went off first turn and went ad nausium and had the worst ad nausium ive ever seen seeing the other ad, the warrens, the gains, and tendrils and only seeing 2 petals with no mana floating and nothing else to produce mana and killed himself.(pretty easy match for me, I didn't do a thing)Well, I have seen the same thing happen to a guy playing for the top8 and in the last round ... and here I was thinking it can't happen more than once in a lifetime :D ... poor guy was like "t1 Ad Nauseam, yay!" and then flipping random order of another AN, Tendrils, Tendrils, IGG, Cabal Ritual killing himself :D

I have tried Team America (winning a 16man tourney in the process :D) and I still firmly believe in ITF being a better deck. The real difference is the one landstill101 said - ITF is really difficult to play, whereas with TA you can just go and win with it. I'm playing ITF for almost as long as landstill101 now, and I am still making mistakes which tend to cost me games. Games that I should have won, if only I was a better player (and I use to be quite a well performing player overall, having my ratings hovering around 1900 in constructed and 1800 in limited. And yes, I love Legacy the most ^__^).

Still noone liking my changes to the deck? I took out stronghold and witness, in order to have better manabase (colorless mana is bad, it means no CB/CS/EE t2) and witness is sooooo sloooooooooow, I hate her. Also, Bayou is bad for the same reasons stronghold is bad - no t2 CB/CS. Better manabase = greater consistency. I love consistency in my decks.

[jazzykat]

I lost a game last night to a very subtle mistake. You need to play this deck perfectly to win but you have a pretty good chance vs. anything except for combo which isn't terrible. There is no Dreadnought or Lightning Bolt to oops I win but if you play this deck deliberately you will win more often than not.

[johanessen]

Dan, I like Jailer for the same reason I like Crypt in the deck - it's recurrable through your lands. The fact that Jailer provides a way to beat them that doesn't get stopped by Needle is pretty good, too.

We could also play Heap doll, but that is pitheable also.
The advantage is that it can be recurseable by academy ruins and volrath stronghold

[FredMaster]

We could also play Heap doll, but that is pitheable also.
The advantage is that it can be recurseable by academy ruins and volrath stronghold

The downside is that it a) sucks very bad and that it's b) even worse that Extirpate...
I mean come on...

[Ch@os]

Knight of the Reliquary - 1GW
Creature - Human Knight (Rare)
Knight of the Reliquary gets +1/+1 for each land card in your graveyard.
{T}, Sacrifice a Forest or Plains: Search your library for a land card, put it into play, then shuffle your library.
2/2



Can he find a place in this deck? Seems pretty cool, only thing is that he makes the deck more relying on the graveyard.
Sac Tundra, search AcademyRuins/Stronghold and a beatstick on his own.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I'd play eight Terravores in Terrageddon. Shit. Especially one that searches up Monasteries.

eta: Wait, this isn't the spoiler thread. Post left in to irritate David Gearhart.

[landstill101]

Knight of the Reliquary - 1GW
Creature - Human Knight (Rare)
Knight of the Reliquary gets +1/+1 for each land card in your graveyard.
{T}, Sacrifice a Forest or Plains: Search your library for a land card, put it into play, then shuffle your library.
2/2



Can he find a place in this deck? Seems pretty cool, only thing is that he makes the deck more relying on the graveyard.
Sac Tundra, search AcademyRuins/Stronghold and a beatstick on his own.


I like it but I think you hit it on the nose that it would make the deck rely on the graveyard too much, iunno I might test it, It is a deffinite inclusion into aggro loam, I actually think it is better than terravore

[Goaswerfraiejen]

I like it but I think you hit it on the nose that it would make the deck rely on the graveyard too much, iunno I might test it, It is a deffinite inclusion into aggro loam, I actually think it is better than terravore

I don't think the graveyard is an issue here, unless you want that card to be much bigger than a 4/4 or 5/5; there are enough fetches in this deck to achieve that fairly easily and consistently, and enough mana hate in the format to plug maybe another or two in there to boot.

The real issues here are threefold:

1.) What are you replacing with it?

2.) Can your manabase support the colour requirement?

3.) How useful is its search ability?


Points two and three are the most significant. The most recent list you posted contains two Forests and two Plains, respectively; none of the Plains are basic, one Forest is. This makes running this creature highly unpredictable. Four colours already stretch the manabase pretty thinly, and there's enough mana hate in the format to pose difficulties for ITF. Do you really want to be wasting your own green and white sources (crucial colours for this deck) for a pretty trick that's just as easy to achieve with Intuition/Loam? I don't think so. To do so is to ask too much of Life from the Loam, let alone a single copy. The potential benefits from the card, in the context of ITF, are too inconsistent. Indeed, the card's inclusion here would promote inconsistency throughout the rest of the deck.

I could only really this card as feasible in this deck as a one-of, and as a one-of, I see Eternal Witness as infinitely more useful.

[raharu]

I don't think the graveyard is an issue here, unless you want that card to be much bigger than a 4/4 or 5/5; there are enough fetches in this deck to achieve that fairly easily and consistently, and enough mana hate in the format to plug maybe another or two in there to boot.

The real issues here are threefold:

1.) What are you replacing with it?

2.) Can your manabase support the colour requirement?

3.) How useful is its search ability?


Points two and three are the most significant. The most recent list you posted contains two Forests and two Plains, respectively; none of the Plains are basic, one Forest is. This makes running this creature highly unpredictable. Four colours already stretch the manabase pretty thinly, and there's enough mana hate in the format to pose difficulties for ITF. Do you really want to be wasting your own green and white sources (crucial colours for this deck) for a pretty trick that's just as easy to achieve with Intuition/Loam? I don't think so. To do so is to ask too much of Life from the Loam, let alone a single copy. The potential benefits from the card, in the context of ITF, are too inconsistent. Indeed, the card's inclusion here would promote inconsistency throughout the rest of the deck.

I could only really this card as feasible in this deck as a one-of, and as a one-of, I see Eternal Witness as infinitely more useful.
You forget Life from the Loam Dredging.

[Goaswerfraiejen]

You forget Life from the Loam Dredging.

No I didn't. I mentioned it explicitly, actually. It's a crutch, and you can't ask too much from it. I'm of the opinion that you already do, but that's beside the point.

If you have to rely on a single copy of a card that's hated out without much effort (grave hate, counterbalance, etc.) to make a card worthy of inclusion in your deck... it's probably not worth it. If including that card makes your whole deck depend on that single copy for its survival, then... well, that's hardly a good thing.


LFTL does a lot of work for ITF as it is, and it's very fragile in the current generic meta. If you ask it to do much more, the deck will implode.

[jeanbathez]

What do you think, is Path to Exile worth a SB-Slot ?

My SB f.e. pre Conflux looks like this :

4 Tormod's Crypt
4 Blue Elemental Blast
4 Krosan Grip
2 Life from the Loam
1 Nevinyrral's Disk

I was thinking of cutting the last Disk (never needed no Dragons Stompy here anymore ;-)) and 1 Grip for 2 Path to exile...
The 2 Lifes are for the Aggro Loam, TA, Eva Green and Staxx.....they are all very popular here at the moment.

[landstill101]

What do you think, is Path to Exile worth a SB-Slot ?

My SB f.e. pre Conflux looks like this :

4 Tormod's Crypt
4 Blue Elemental Blast
4 Krosan Grip
2 Life from the Loam
1 Nevinyrral's Disk

I was thinking of cutting the last Disk (never needed no Dragons Stompy here anymore ;-)) and 1 Grip for 2 Path to exile...
The 2 Lifes are for the Aggro Loam, TA, Eva Green and Staxx.....they are all very popular here at the moment.

I'm not sure if I like path to exile yet, mainly because In a deck like this if you used it early, then you would be giving that person tempo by giving them more lands but against some decks I really like it because it has to be a basic which can sometimes hurt someone. I'm deffinitly testing it, but not as a sideboard slot, this deck has enough creature removal as it is, it wouldn't help any matchup that we need help in.

[landstill101]

No I didn't. I mentioned it explicitly, actually. It's a crutch, and you can't ask too much from it. I'm of the opinion that you already do, but that's beside the point.

If you have to rely on a single copy of a card that's hated out without much effort (grave hate, counterbalance, etc.) to make a card worthy of inclusion in your deck... it's probably not worth it. If including that card makes your whole deck depend on that single copy for its survival, then... well, that's hardly a good thing.


LFTL does a lot of work for ITF as it is, and it's very fragile in the current generic meta. If you ask it to do much more, the deck will implode.

If used right life from the loam is not fragile especially in this deck where it is really easy to get rid of counterbalance and be able dredge life back. The only graveyard hate that anyone has that can truly stop loam is extirpate, and that is really only used in 1 deck right now, and if they using that extirpate on loam instead of say tarmogoyf, then go right ahead and waste it.

against a couple of decks we do rely on loam to live and it works very well because we can search for it, but the decks we need it against don't have a way to remove it.

[Goaswerfraiejen]

If used right life from the loam is not fragile especially in this deck where it is really easy to get rid of counterbalance and be able dredge life back. The only graveyard hate that anyone has that can truly stop loam is extirpate, and that is really only used in 1 deck right now, and if they using that extirpate on loam instead of say tarmogoyf, then go right ahead and waste it.

against a couple of decks we do rely on loam to live and it works very well because we can search for it, but the decks we need it against don't have a way to remove it.


I'm sorry, but I'm not sure that I understand. Your latest decklist boasted a single copy of LFTL: how is it that only Extirpate is useful against it? How is it Crypt/Relic-proof?


And for the record, I'm not saying that LftL doesn't play an important role in this deck, or that it's ineffective: most opponents have better things to do than remove a singleton Loam. My concern here is that importing Knight of the Reliquary does your opponents' work for him/her already by forcing you to somehow draw LftL through a number of potential (and common) obstacles. You have very few Forests or Plains in this deck (2 of each), and yet rely on them heavily. Adding in a creature that allows you to blow one of these four lands up in exchange for some kind of marginally useful utility-land (what, exactly, are you going to search for? ITF currently only runs Stronghold and Ruins by way of utility, and how often are you going to want to blow up the mana you need to activate them in order to lose your draw--and, therefore, lose the possibility of dredging Loam?) is just to put ridiculous demands on the card.

ITF runs very little by way of the required colour-producing lands. Its only utility-lands prevent it from using Loam as effectively as possible after making the KotR sacrifice. Its only utility lands are barely worth searching out with KotR in most scenarios. Realistically speaking, what are you going to do with this card that you can't already accomplish more efficiently?

I think that KotR is a very strong card with pretty wide applications. But it just doesn't seem like a good inclusion here. Granted, it's a (potentially) large body. Granted, it has an extra ability that might occasionally prove useful. But these pros are ephemeral, and entail far more substantive cons. I just don't see how its inclusion in this deck can be justified over cards like Tarmogoyf, Etched Oracle, or Eternal Witness. As a singleton, Witness does all the same things and more (minus beating/blocking for significant amounts). At 2+ copies, you're compromising other elements of the deck for negligible gain and tangible loss.

[landstill101]

You can't change your post just to bash mine, you went from saying that kotr is bad(which I completly agree) to talking about how a singleton of a card is not powerful in a deck. I was commenting on the powerful and usefulness of the card in the deck as a one of, not how it works with KOTR, Don't put words in my mouth.

KOTR is horrible for this deck(I already explained this to you)

[3duece]

I have a question, keep in mind this is from someone with no experience with this deck. This deck seems like the only real candidate in legacy to abuse gifts ungiven. What is the reason for running 4 intuition and no gifts. 1 extra mana for an extra card and the ability to get all four in hand seems pretty strong. I know I'm missing something, but if someone could offer some insight that would be great.

[Valtrix]

One of the strengths of intution is that it gets you anything you have 3-4 of immediately...Gifts can't do that. That, and the fact that it's cheaper are both good. Realistically, cards in your graveyard are almost as useful as cards in your hand, and you have plenty of ways for card advantage already. That said, I have no experience either...But I like (trying) to answer questions.

[landstill101]

I have a question, keep in mind this is from someone with no experience with this deck. This deck seems like the only real candidate in legacy to abuse gifts ungiven. What is the reason for running 4 intuition and no gifts. 1 extra mana for an extra card and the ability to get all four in hand seems pretty strong. I know I'm missing something, but if someone could offer some insight that would be great.

valtrex hit it on the nose really, it costs 1 less which is a big plus and you have the ability go so say, 3 swords or 3 goyfs or 3 counterbalance and know your going to get it, but if you need a counterspell, you can choose a force a counterspell but then 2 cards that arn't which makes gifts really bad. Speed is the main reason.

[Unknown2]

intuition lets you get copies, meaning if you REALLY need a deed, you'll get it, whereas gifts is four different cards.

Also, intuition helps with CB, as otherwise, shackles gets all of the 3cc slack (and if people play vindicate, but that's rare)

Also, i believe gifts to be sorcery, no?

[wolfstorm]

Also, i believe gifts to be sorcery, no?

Gifts is instant speed.

http://sales.starcitygames.com/cardsearch.php?singlesearch=Gifts%20Ungiven

[Goaswerfraiejen]

You can't change your post just to bash mine, you went from saying that kotr is bad(which I completly agree) to talking about how a singleton of a card is not powerful in a deck. I was commenting on the powerful and usefulness of the card in the deck as a one of, not how it works with KOTR, Don't put words in my mouth.

KOTR is horrible for this deck(I already explained this to you)

Um... I never changed anything about my posts. My posts were always a refutation of KotR's usefulness in ITF. If any switcheroo has been pulled, it seems to be coming from you. Witness the contradiction above: you seem to start by saying that KotR is bad to saying that as a one-of, it's worth including here. I'm not sure which position you're advocating, and I have no idea what you mean when you say that my two-pronged attack on KotR is irrelevant.

My attack on KotR followed two separate lines: the card as a one-of, and the card in multiples. I argued that in neither case does it seem to give you any advantages that you can't obtain more easily from cards already in the deck.

I'm not attacking you, just presenting my reasons for disagreeing with what seems to be your assessment of the card. I have consistently made the same arguments in each of my previous two posts. Consequently, I'm not sure what your beef with my posts is. Is it that I used your latest list as a reference point?

[Muradin]

While I am usually quite reluctant towards 4 colored decks ,I yesterday took It's the Fear to our local tournament and eventually won it. I changed the list only a little bit by taking out the Vedalken Shackles as I simply found the card lacking and very slow in this already clunky deck. I added the 4th Top for increased consistency and because I expected a quite controlish and low metagame. I got first despite having to face Back to Basics in a Threshold shell twice and Blood Moon in Dreadstill post board as well. (my other matchups were Stax and Goyfsligh.
I was really impressed because the deck performed so well and didn't crap out on me but once in the whole tournament. The 4th Top was a good fit for my metagame, but my sideboard was not really well tweaked as I simply took the one recommended in this thread without further consideration.

The only cards that proved to be useful were
4 Blue Elemental blast
4 Krosan Grip

My only point of criticism concerning this deck is, that I somehow feel that Spell Snare definitely belongs into it. It is just awesome in control decks all over the formats because it takes so much pressure away by countering very relevant spells like Tarmogoyf, Counterbalance, Dark confidant, Standstill.....

What do you think of removing the 2 Counterspells and the Vedalken Shackles from the maindeck to find room for 3 Spell Snares?

[Atog]

..

How many players were in tournament you play and how you managed to play under Blood Moon and B2B? Or did you always have counter or/and Krosan grip hand waiting for them? Just looking that manabase with couple basics.. That looks quite juicy target for each other cards.

That spell snare question, i like them more when i used to play this deck. Just because counterspell double UU is sometimes hard to reach turn to. And that snare just owns CotV@1, tarmogoyfs and counterbalance wars. There isn't much you need counterspell if you just manage to get countertop online. Volrath's Stronghold + Eternal witness + deed or stop handle creatures and else you can save counters.

[Muradin]

Against Back to Basics I managed to drop a Tarmogoyf before my opponent reslved it but was fully tapped out because of that. The goyf was 3/4 at that moment and while my opponent was digging for Swords to Plowshares in order to get rid of my goyf I drew quite some Force of Wills for them while failing to find green mana for my Krosan Grip waiting in hand.

At one point my lone goyf was holding of an army of 2 Nimble Mongoose and 1 Tarmogoyf who simply couldn't attack because of him. Eventually I drew my mana for Grip after 10 turns or so, destroyed B2B in his eot and blew up the whole board with deed soon thereafter.

Concerning Blood Moon the situation was the following:
My opponent had dropped a 2nd turn Standstill while I had a top in play. After a while he started hitting me with one, then two Mishra's Factories. However he failed to draw more than 4 lands under Standstill and when I was at 4 life and decided to break standstill I was at 9 lands while he had 4 of them in play.

I dropped countertop and had another 2 swords waiting for his Mishras. When he played Blood Moon I knew I had won because there is no way Dreadstill can win when Blood Moon resolves, all Engineered Explosives are gone and the opponent has countertop with cc1 and cc3 on top in play.

I won after 30 Turns with 3/3 Etched Oracle beatdown when I had assembled the perfect CC ranged on countertop for all eventualities with some Force of Wills in my hand to protect it.

[Atog]

...
I won after 30 Turns with 3/3 Etched Oracle beatdown when I had assembled the perfect CC ranged on countertop for all eventualities with some Force of Wills in my hand to protect it.

Whos list did you play btw? and what your side look like? Krosan grips, BEBS, t.crypts and what else?

[Muradin]

I played Deep6er's standard list and had 3 Engineered Plagues in my open sideboard slots. There had been some people testing goblin decks before the tournament and I still hadn't thought about my sideboard so I put these in. But as already mentioned I do not think they are necessary or very good in most metagames.

[zer0style]

I played Deep6er's standard list and had 3 Engineered Plagues in my open sideboard slots. There had been some people testing goblin decks before the tournament and I still hadn't thought about my sideboard so I put these in. But as already mentioned I do not think they are necessary or very good in most metagames.

Indeed, in most metagames, they're pretty much useless, I know in my meta very rarely do people play goblins, but on occasion it happens. I did encounter goblins one week with It's The Fear, I had 4 Engineered Plagues in my sideboard and I must say that I am very thankfull that I did. Although BEB's and Shackle's can most of the time win, when I got the first down and then Intuitioned for the second and got it down, he just scooped it up. But I do agree that Plagues are most of the time useless. I need to find 3 other usefull cards to fill up my sideboard slots. I have:


Krosan Grip x4
Blue Elemental Blast x4
Tormod's Crypt x3
Empty Slotx3

Any ideas?:laugh:
Oh, and by the way, this deck needs to see way more play than it does! It's insane!

[lavafrogg]

I would keep the plagues in, seeing how elves and merfolk are becoming grown up legacy decks.

[Adan]

I would keep the plagues in, seeing how elves and merfolk are becoming grown up legacy decks.

Agreed. Ichorid gets splash damage from them, too.

[Misplayer]

I like Duress out of the board, personally, so you have more combo hate than just Counterbalance.

[jazzykat]

Oh, and by the way, this deck needs to see way more play than it does! It's insane!


This deck is amazingly unforgiving and takes a long time to learn. Even with a strong background in control decks it still took me 2 months of solid testing to feel comfortable bringing it to a tournament. The flip side is, that this deck does not auto scoop to almost anything, and brilliant play pays off in spades.

[Misplayer]

This deck is amazingly unforgiving and takes a long time to learn. Even with a strong background in control decks it still took me 2 months of solid testing to feel comfortable bringing it to a tournament. The flip side is, that this deck does not auto scoop to almost anything, and brilliant play pays off in spades.

Agreed. One of the hardest parts other then knowing what to Intuition for and when is knowing when to use your recursion. This is a deck of limited resources (mana/draws) and limitless play avenues. I play Dark Confidant to help combat the limited draws aspect, however this makes it difficult to stablize against aggro. I've been considering Rhox War Monk but I'm unsure about what to cut. I know this is sacrelige but I'm thinking about cutting FoW (not necessarily for War Monk). I've already cut Counterspell and with only 4 Brainstorm, 4 Intuition and 4 Counterbalance my blue card count is way too low. This would definitely turn the deck into kind of a Counterbalance-Rock hybrid with an Inuition engine, but I think it's worth looking into. You sacrifice the threat density of The Rock for the ability to run Counter-Top and pseudo-tutor with Intuition, not to mention Brainstorm. Cutting Force may seem very wrong, but what resolved spell can this deck not answer? The inability to Force out a Counterbalance or something of that nature is the biggest drawback I see. Thoughts?

[jazzykat]

I don't think you can cut FoW because it is the early combo protection. I have tried to sneak in another counterspell and/or a spellsnare or 2, but when this deck is played correctly I honestly can't tell what to cut. Given the fact that, counterspell is probably the worst card in the deck, I should look at playing landstill at the point where I want to play more counters.

[Misplayer]

That's why I went -3 Counterspell and +3 Dark Confidant. At the very worst Confidant eats the Swords that would otherwise be slung at your Goyf, and it helps you draw/recur during the same turn.

On FoW, maybe cutting it for Thoughtseize/Duress would be a satisfactory replacement that could provide early protection against combo and help resolve important spells. I'd lean towards Duress as creatures aren't usually a big concern. Also, in my build flipping FoW to Bob is not something I ever want to see.

[zer0style]

I would keep the plagues in, seeing how elves and merfolk are becoming grown up legacy decks.
Yeah, that does seem like a good idea now that I think about it. Even though no one in my meta really plays competetive versions of those decks. I have kept them in because there really isn't anything else I need in from the board ever, and the Plagues do come in handy a lot of the time.


This deck is amazingly unforgiving and takes a long time to learn. Even with a strong background in control decks it still took me 2 months of solid testing to feel comfortable bringing it to a tournament. The flip side is, that this deck does not auto scoop to almost anything, and brilliant play pays off in spades.
Indeed, it took me as well a hell of a long time to really get a decent hand of the deck and how to play it and the many different interactions that go on in it. But yes, my favorite thing about this deck is I know I have a chance of beating everything. I have never scooped to anything or any one card, there's always a way around it.

[landstill101]

Soo I decided to test against merfolk yesterday and found out(with help from bobby and pj) that this deck has a horrible, HORRIBLE matchup against merfolk. The matchup was something like 20-2 in his favor. I did testing on a couple of sideboard options as well and the first one(e.plague) did not help at all, all it did was stall for 1 turn which was able to get me a deed down to blow, but I had to blow it for 3 to get rid of everything which also hit my e plague. Does anyone have any side options at all which might help?

[wolfstorm]

Soo I decided to test against merfolk yesterday and found out(with help from bobby and pj) that this deck has a horrible, HORRIBLE matchup against merfolk. The matchup was something like 20-2 in his favor. I did testing on a couple of sideboard options as well and the first one(e.plague) did not help at all, all it did was stall for 1 turn which was able to get me a deed down to blow, but I had to blow it for 3 to get rid of everything which also hit my e plague. Does anyone have any side options at all which might help?

Tsabo's Decree, Llawan, Cephalid Empress, Story Circle, The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale.. There really isn't anything good, Tab gets wasted Tsabo's is slow.. llawan is pretty amazing but would only be there for that match up, Story Circle is probably to slow. I cant really think of anything else I always expected Deed, swords, & EE combined would be enough. (haven't gotten to test the actual match up yet even though I really want to..)

Edit-

Possibly Infest?..

[ansset]

Pretty sure that you should not be keeping Deed in against Merfolk. Yes, it's good, but what is your long term game plan? Like, they aren't going to overextend into your Deed, so you Deed as a 2 for 2 or something similar. It's really bad post board, where you set up a permanent-based lock with multiple Engineered Plagues and Counterbalance/Top. Your long-term strategy is Counter/Top and them having no Vial, and Deed seems incredibly antithetical to that plan. That, and you can of course just randomly get blown out by Stifle on Deed when you were relying on that to stabilize. Whatever you were taking out for the 4 E. Plague, take out 3 Deed and something else instead.

[landstill101]

Pretty sure that you should not be keeping Deed in against Merfolk. Yes, it's good, but what is your long term game plan? Like, they aren't going to overextend into your Deed, so you Deed as a 2 for 2 or something similar. It's really bad post board, where you set up a permanent-based lock with multiple Engineered Plagues and Counterbalance/Top. Your long-term strategy is Counter/Top and them having no Vial, and Deed seems incredibly antithetical to that plan. That, and you can of course just randomly get blown out by Stifle on Deed when you were relying on that to stabilize. Whatever you were taking out for the 4 E. Plague, take out 3 Deed and something else instead.

When I think of merfolk, I think of a blue goblins, and against goblins, with swords, E.E. and tarmogoyf, I can stabalize no prob and then if it gets to bad I have deed. I do not fear goblins at all. But with merfolk tarmogoyf can not block nor can it race, E. E. and Deed need to be protected from counters AND stifle which dramatically slows it down. and when it comes down to it, merfolk can actually be faster than goblins. This matchup is really bad for this deck.

[deadlock]

First of sorry if i make wrong assumptions, i am not that familiar with the deck.

My question is, why do people like EE more / as much as Deed in the Merfolk matchup?
A Deed for 3 kills everything they have, with EE you can consider yourself lucky if you hit 2 of their guys.
Lord ofAtlantis is a big problem, which is one of the reasons i would follow Muradin's suggestion and play 3 Spell Snare main with two Vedalken Shackles in the board.
They are quite good against them in my opinion. Additionally i suggest 2 Tombstalker as additional meat to block their swarm.
They do work nicely with Deed and give you more time to setup Counterbalance.
I may appear that they dont work well with your recursion theme, but in practice i dont think its a problem (just remove the 'uninteresting' spells).
A drawback is that they make their Relics more potent, but for these Grip could be used (helps also against Vial and B2B).

Thoughts?

[bowvamp]

First of sorry if i make wrong assumptions, i am not that familiar with the deck.

My question is, why do people like EE more / as much as Deed in the Merfolk matchup?
A Deed for 3 kills everything they have, with EE you can consider yourself lucky if you hit 2 of their guys.
Lord ofAtlantis is a big problem, which is one of the reasons i would follow Muradin's suggestion and play 3 Spell Snare main with two Vedalken Shackles in the board.
They are quite good against them in my opinion. Additionally i suggest 2 Tombstalker as additional meat to block their swarm.
They do work nicely with Deed and give you more time to setup Counterbalance.
I may appear that they dont work well with your recursion theme, but in practice i dont think its a problem (just remove the 'uninteresting' spells).
A drawback is that they make their Relics more potent, but for these Grip could be used (helps also against Vial and B2B).

Thoughts?

Well, I think that the key difference is that it is easier to recur EE. That and it comes out earlier sometimes. And as far as tombstalker goes, it seems like you're just walking straight into a relic. I would run Nihilith over tombstalker against merfolk any day. If they ever get to the point where a merman is big enough to kill it, you've lost anyways!

[Muradin]

So if you think that ITF has such an abyssal Merfolk matchup, was your testing against builds featuring Back to Basics or just the standard builds that can be found in the Merfolk threat on these boards.
I don't actually see why our matchup should be so bad as it probably plays out a bit like the Tempo Threshold matchup where I feel that ITF is actually favored.

[landstill101]

So if you think that ITF has such an abyssal Merfolk matchup, was your testing against builds featuring Back to Basics or just the standard builds that can be found in the Merfolk threat on these boards.
I don't actually see why our matchup should be so bad as it probably plays out a bit like the Tempo Threshold matchup where I feel that ITF is actually favored.

The whole problem is islandwalk. it beats you. A deed alone never beat goblins either, it always needed a swords and/or goyf mix to give deed time to actually work and because of island walk with wasteland to keep you off certain colors and stifle, this is really a pain in the ass.

EDIT:decks with back to basics which really the standards list do run.

[Adan]

I am not sure with whom I should agree, but both have a edge here.

Islandwalk, no, a hughe amount of creatures are generally bad against Counterbalance-Control decks. If they come down well timed - i.e. early - you have to solve those problems with StoP/Goyf/EE/Deed asap but at the same time assemble Counterbalance to keep further creatures off the board.

And notice how we have a clash here between Deed/EE and CBalance.

The best way against those decks is to 1st Turn Top, 2nd Turn Balance with Basic Islands and then go Goyf Goyf Goyf, StoP for Lord of Atlantis or something similar. I always try to do it that way when playing Threshold - if my hand allows me to do so.

It's also possible to slowroll a bit, force the opponent to overextend, wipe the board clean with Deed and then seal it with CBalance-Top.

Both gameplans sound a bit utopic to me, though.

[ansset]

The reason EE is better is because, postboard, you want to resolve Counterbalance and Engineered Plague, and so you will want to EE, in general, on the number that doesn't set you back.

Merfolk has manlands, so recovering from Deed is pretty easy for them. In addition, you have to invest 5-6 mana over two turns into Deed, whereas you can often EE for 2 and activate on the same turn.

I often side Deed out against Merfolk, since I want to cast 12 incredibly advantageous permanents and don't have a lot of time to tap six mana and walk into a Stifle.

[jeanbathez]

ITF is still alive :smile:

Here i found a day 2 Decklist :

Intuition Control

Andrew Cooperfauss .

127 Cooperfauss, Andrew R 21 68.3745%

Grand Prix-Chicago

4 intuition
4 force of will
4 brainstorm
4 counterbalance
4 tarmogoyf
4 swords to plowshares
3 sensei’s divining top
2 engineered explosives
2 counterspell
1 life from the loam
1 vedalken shackles
1 etched oracle
1 eternal witness
4 polluted delta
4 flooded strand
3 tropical island
3 underground sea
2 tundra
2 island
1 plains
1 wasteland
1 academy ruins
1 volrath’s stronghold
3 pernicious deed

Sideboard

4 engineered plague
2 extirpate
2 divert
2 blue elemental blast
2 krosan grip
1 raven’s crime
1 tormod’s crypt
1 life from the loam

[Unknown2]

hey guys, I've found that I've been very dissapointed with force of will in this deck. Has anybody else had this problem? I mean, don't get me wrong, FoW is essential to most blue decks as it is a free counterspell, but in this deck, I never want to RFG intuition or counterbalance. Possibly it's because I haven only been playing this deck for about a month and a half now, but that's just my opinion.

What do you guys think

[Benie Bederios]

hey guys, I've found that I've been very dissapointed with force of will in this deck. Has anybody else had this problem? I mean, don't get me wrong, FoW is essential to most blue decks as it is a free counterspell, but in this deck, I never want to RFG intuition or counterbalance. Possibly it's because I haven only been playing this deck for about a month and a half now, but that's just my opinion.

What do you guys think

Then don't... You don't have to counter things. But when an opponent playes a turn 1 Blood Moon/ Ad Nauseam, you'll be glad to pitch a card to survive.

But just out of curiosity, what would you replace force of Will with?

BB

[Unknown2]

not quite sure, I've always really wanted to fit Bob into here. Spell snare seems sub-par to me, but still a suggestion.

I'm sure there is something we can find to replace it. FoW is also sub-par with counterbalance.

This is purely suggestions, don't assume I know what I'm talking about

[ebbitten]

FoW is also sub-par with counterbalance.



I've heard of and even ran blue decks that don't have counterbalance. I used to toy around with a RBu tombstalker deck that had trinket mage and brainstorm without FoW. I do not, however, see any dis-synergy between counterbalance and FoW. multiples of Counterbances are always nice to pitch to FoW and FoW can help you land/protect a counterbalance. FoW also can be hardcast late game if you're cb/top engine lets you stall out that long for spells outside of your cb/top engine.

[Unknown2]

well, those extra counterbalances are for when you deed away your current one and don't have the mana or the turns to reccur it.

I'll keep playing arounf with it

[Citrus-God]

I started tampering around with the mana base recently so that I can get all the mana I want within a reasonable amount of turns. I also learned that Brainstorms and SDT aren't enough when trying to find all 4 of your colors. So I have these options; run more fetchlands or fit in City of Brass. As much as I hate to admit it, if I can set the game up for efficiently, then the lifeloss from City of Brass really shouldn't matter. You're going to lose life from creature beats when finding that Black mana to land that Pernicious Deed in your hand anyway. This also enables me to run REBs and Pyroclasms from the board. I havent completely tested this idea yet, but here's what I have so far


// Lands 22
1 Academy Ruins
1 Volrath's Stronghold
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
4 City of Brass
3 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
2 Tundra
1 Volcanic Island


// Creatures 6
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Eternal Witness
1 Etched Oracle


// Spells 32
4 Brainstorm
4 Intuition
4 Counterbalance
4 Force of Will
2 Counterspell
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Vedalken Shackles
1 Life from the Loam


// Sideboard 15
4 Pyroclasm
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pyroblast
3 Krosan Grip
4 Meddling Mage/Anti-combo component

[FredMaster]

I think you are weakening your manabase more than helping it. No basics really suck.
I know that it must be awesome to kill a Morphling with an Engineered Explosives, but still your manabase looks creepy.

[Spare Parts]

Playing 1-2 CoB - maybe. But full playset? Insane. Drawing 2 CoB in opening hand against Goblins / Burn / Goyf Stompy is gg, literally. Double CoB will deal like 8-10 damage to you over a course of first few turns.

I have found manabase to be shaky as well, but CoB is not the way to go, really not.

You may try out my take at ITF manabase, I got rid of Volrath's Stronghold and kept only Academy Ruins (upping colored mana sources by 1), every land can produce blue in order to be able to always play 2nd turn CB/CS and I went up to 10 fetches. Since then, manabase is stable as all hell.

3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
1 Breeding Pool
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
2 Windswept Heath
1 Island
1 Academy Ruins

The only questionable decision is the single Breeding Pool, but in my area there are always lots of Extirpates flying around...

Please note: I do not play Eternal Witness, it never worked up to my expectations (2 green in manacost, even when recurring there is no way to sacrifice it and repeat the process 'infinitely' as with Oracle). Oracle may be recurred with Ruins and the only thing affected is Tarmogoyf recursion - but after ITF locks the game, the Oracle kills opponent as easily as goyf would.
I strongly suggest to at least give it a try.

[Citrus-God]

I've had nothing but good results from Stronghold and Witness. I probably won't be swaying towards cutting them.

I personally believe running more fetchlands might not be the way to go. Of course, I haven't tested it yet. As of now, I've cut down to 2 CoBs and replaced the other two CoBs with another Trop and another USea.

[zer0style]

Yes, DON'T cut Stronghold and Witness, at least in my opinion. They're way to good, and have always been the nuts with me. I've won many many games with Stronghold combined with Witness.

As far as the land base goes, I don't think running more fetchlands seems like the right thing to do, because in my time of playing It's the Fear, which it's been a long time, I don't think the deck could risk cutting more lands that produce color for fetchlands, even cutting the Seas down to two or something for more fetchlands is a bad idea, you need those colored lands, and as many of them as you can get so you have multiple ways to get mulitiple colors in one turn, not just two Seas.

[Spare Parts]

Yes, DON'T cut Stronghold and Witness, at least in my opinion. They're way to good, and have always been the nuts with me. I've won many many games with Stronghold combined with Witness.

As far as the land base goes, I don't think running more fetchlands seems like the right thing to do, because in my time of playing It's the Fear, which it's been a long time, I don't think the deck could risk cutting more lands that produce color for fetchlands, even cutting the Seas down to two or something for more fetchlands is a bad idea, you need those colored lands, and as many of them as you can get so you have multiple ways to get mulitiple colors in one turn, not just two Seas.

I believe that if you play the deck correctly, there is no need for Eternal Witness. Witness is only a backup plan if you screw it up.
Witness by itself is quite a bad creature. It's 2/1 and the "clock" she creates is too slow to actually matter => there is no need to block her. The only way to get her killed is
a.) block a creature - but what if opponent just won't attack or doesn't play any creatures?
b.) kill her yourself - quite mana intensive and illogical.

If I have CB+Top, I don't need to recurr cards. If I don't have CB+Top, I have to assemble it. That is all this deck is about.

After everything have been said and done, I must say that it's not like Witness is a bad creature and recurring her is a totally bad plan. It's just - this plan is not good enough. We can do better than that. Really.


And as to my manabase - I did not cut any of the duals, you must have probably mixed it up with the "City of Brass manabase of death" :D. Check the numbers:
4x UG
3x UW
3x UB
10x fetch
1x island
1x Ruins
---- 22 lands
Each color has to have at least 3 sources. We cannot go lower than that, and I am well aware of it thanks to long hours of playing the deck. This manabase has it all. Functional difference between playing 8 or 10 fetches is almost nonexistant - we are already highly susceptible to Stifle.

[bruno_tiete]

After a month or so of playing this deck at kitchen tables, I finally joined a tournament with it. I was very insecure, but tired of playing Loam, so I just gave it a shot.

I fineshed 1st without dropping a single game. This is the very very tiny report:

In round one I faced Zoo, and managed to stabilize at 2 in game one and 5 in game 2, with counterbalance and hardcastable FOW. Then dropped a goyf who took it alone. Not cashing in top in response to a bolt eot, when at 8 life was the highlight, as he had a Price of Progress to which I was sold.

In round two I face a close friend with UBG Goyf-Nought-trinket-Stalker. I beat him up to death with stolen Stalker in game 1 and locked the table in game 2 to drop a very late goyf who beat him.

In round three I faced Slivers combo. The deck can act like a tribal beatdown or do shenanigans with Dormant/Gemhide/Heart queen for an infinite combo kill. I deed him away, witnessed it back and them dropped a Goyf.
In game 2 I play Countertop and lock him while searching for plagues. He dies to his stolen Queen.

In round 4 I beat a Dragonstompy. I controled the whole game by outplaying my oponent, mainly with CB setups in advance. He cast 6 moon in 2 games. Even the one magus who got through was not a problem, as I had active shackles with an Arc Slogger taken.

In round for, I ID'ed for 1st agains Aggro Loam.

So 4-0, no games lost. My main concerns are the slow pace I play while using ITF and the recurring lack of blue cards to pitch. Had I lost any of those game 2's, I am not sure I could make game three in time.

My list was Gearharts, but the side was gathered in a hurry, with nothing in my memory, so I went:

3 Grips
4 Crypts
3 Pyroblasts
1 REB
3 Plagues
2 Threads of Disloyalty (which were mostly useless, mainly for not having what to side out)

I will keep trying this deck. I ougtha learn who to play it sometime.

[lilrikki2000]

Ive just started playtesting this deck and I was wondering why daze is not played over counterspell?

(I am no expert for this deck and have little playtesting)

[ansset]

I believe that if you play the deck correctly, there is no need for Eternal Witness. Witness is only a backup plan if you screw it up.
Witness by itself is quite a bad creature. It's 2/1 and the "clock" she creates is too slow to actually matter => there is no need to block her. The only way to get her killed is
a.) block a creature - but what if opponent just won't attack or doesn't play any creatures?
b.) kill her yourself - quite mana intensive and illogical.

If I have CB+Top, I don't need to recurr cards. If I don't have CB+Top, I have to assemble it. That is all this deck is about.

After everything have been said and done, I must say that it's not like Witness is a bad creature and recurring her is a totally bad plan. It's just - this plan is not good enough. We can do better than that. Really.


And as to my manabase - I did not cut any of the duals, you must have probably mixed it up with the "City of Brass manabase of death" :D. Check the numbers:
4x UG
3x UW
3x UB
10x fetch
1x island
1x Ruins
---- 22 lands
Each color has to have at least 3 sources. We cannot go lower than that, and I am well aware of it thanks to long hours of playing the deck. This manabase has it all. Functional difference between playing 8 or 10 fetches is almost nonexistant - we are already highly susceptible to Stifle.

You're wrong on almost all of your points. To wit:

1. Eternal Witness is really fucking strong.

So I hear that Counterbalance/Top does not, in fact, beat every deck ever, and that sometimes you even have to try to beat decks without relying on a soft lock. Goblins come to mind here. Go ahead, try to Counterbalance their Ringleader, or really do anything with it if they ever resolve Vial. Here, Eternal Witness is insanely good. In addition, it provides a lot of value against Landstill and decks with similar plans. If they aren't attacking you, THAT'S A GOOD THING. That's like trying to justify running less than 4 Counterbalance by saying, "Well, you're winning if you have one, so run 3 so you never see the second one!" Awful.

2. As for having a better plan: yes, sometimes you just Etched Oracle and pay 8 mana to draw Ancestral Recall every turn. Sometimes, though, you need to stop an attack deck, and drawing a 2/1 + a Swords to Plowshares every turn is really really good.

3. Having Stronghold can mean recurring not-Eternal Witness, too. Sometimes decks kill your Goyf. Getting those back can be good. It also contributes to furthering the soft-lock capabilities of Counterbalance by being able to put a 2 on top of your library in the late game, something that Ruins cannot do.

4. Your manabase is terrible. What do you ever want a third Underground Sea for? This deck wants Black the least of all its colors. Yes, Deed, sure, but aside from that only Etched Oracle, Stronghold, and EE on 4 want Black mana. Play 2. Also, 10 fetches is ridiculous. Enjoy the added life loss against aggro decks. The deck will run out of mana sources long before it runs out of fetchlands. You're actually increasing your dead draws lategame in exchange for absolutely nothing. Making the deck EVEN WORSE against Stifle is unappealing. If you're not a good enough player to play around Stifle, get better. There are ways to not get turn 1 fetchland Stifled. Believe me, I've beaten Canadian Thrash and Team America in matches where they held multiple Stifles. Why? Because it is actually pretty easy to not just cartwheel into Stifle.

One final point: with your manabase, you don't get to not run 4 Blue Elemental Blast, because you flat out lose to resolved Blood Moon. I don't like BEB much in this deck, and I have the relative luxury of cutting it because I run 1 Plains. Losing to Blood Moon is also unappealing. I don't really see what the deck gains with your changes, but I see a lot of what it loses.

[Spare Parts]

You're wrong on almost all of your points. To wit:

1. Eternal Witness is really fucking strong.

So I hear that Counterbalance/Top does not, in fact, beat every deck ever, and that sometimes you even have to try to beat decks without relying on a soft lock. Goblins come to mind here. Go ahead, try to Counterbalance their Ringleader, or really do anything with it if they ever resolve Vial. Here, Eternal Witness is insanely good. In addition, it provides a lot of value against Landstill and decks with similar plans. If they aren't attacking you, THAT'S A GOOD THING. That's like trying to justify running less than 4 Counterbalance by saying, "Well, you're winning if you have one, so run 3 so you never see the second one!" Awful.

2. As for having a better plan: yes, sometimes you just Etched Oracle and pay 8 mana to draw Ancestral Recall every turn. Sometimes, though, you need to stop an attack deck, and drawing a 2/1 + a Swords to Plowshares every turn is really really good.

3. Having Stronghold can mean recurring not-Eternal Witness, too. Sometimes decks kill your Goyf. Getting those back can be good. It also contributes to furthering the soft-lock capabilities of Counterbalance by being able to put a 2 on top of your library in the late game, something that Ruins cannot do.

4. Your manabase is terrible. What do you ever want a third Underground Sea for? This deck wants Black the least of all its colors. Yes, Deed, sure, but aside from that only Etched Oracle, Stronghold, and EE on 4 want Black mana. Play 2. Also, 10 fetches is ridiculous. Enjoy the added life loss against aggro decks. The deck will run out of mana sources long before it runs out of fetchlands. You're actually increasing your dead draws lategame in exchange for absolutely nothing. Making the deck EVEN WORSE against Stifle is unappealing. If you're not a good enough player to play around Stifle, get better. There are ways to not get turn 1 fetchland Stifled. Believe me, I've beaten Canadian Thrash and Team America in matches where they held multiple Stifles. Why? Because it is actually pretty easy to not just cartwheel into Stifle.

One final point: with your manabase, you don't get to not run 4 Blue Elemental Blast, because you flat out lose to resolved Blood Moon. I don't like BEB much in this deck, and I have the relative luxury of cutting it because I run 1 Plains. Losing to Blood Moon is also unappealing. I don't really see what the deck gains with your changes, but I see a lot of what it loses.Oh man, I have really stepped on your toe it seems :)
The major problem of internet forums is that they do not evolve the decks they are arguing about, because for every single "innovator" there are like hundreds of "worshippers of the sacred cow = original decklist" :)
I will try to address some of your points, although I do not feel like I can persuade you, or better, you do not look like you would allow me to persuade you.

1. Eternal Witness - for every single time I used it to my advantage in a way you pictured, there were 10 times when it just sat in my hand because I either didn't have double green mana, or did not have the time to cast her, or didn't need to do so. She would be awesome if I could not ever draw her "normally" and only tutor her up with Intuition, but that's not the case and thus I dumped her in favor of greater consistency.
Matchup against Landstill is already quite good, and against Goblins - they are not so heavily played anymore, and in case your metagame is infested with little green men - well, use another deck, or sideboard Engineered Plague.

2. I do not see the Witness plan as being synergistic with the rest of the deck. ITF is not some kind of rock trying to win with little incremental card advantage. We are trying to soft lock an opponent out of the game using CB+Top and have the SB plan ready for decks where we can not.

3. Yes, I already mentioned in my previous post that with the cut of Stronghold I lose the recurring goyf. I can live with it. I didn't recurr goyf more times than I wished for Stronghold to actually produce some color of mana I could, like, use or something. :laugh:

4. 10 fetchland manabase works well. The difference in the loss of life is almost nonexistant. 2 more fetches in 60 cards deck deal like 0.3 more damage per game.
Underground Sea is 3x, because with less black sources I risk to be stopped from using black with Wasteland. Really, to draw 2x Wasteland is quite normal. Also, deep6er used 3x Underground Sea in both of his successful decklists.
For deck like TA it's actually quite a problem to use Stifle during the first few turns of the game (they have to Ponder, Thoughtseize etc) and they tend to provide window where fetchland can be used. And if you absolutely can not outrun the Stifle, it is better to have more fetchlands than fewer, they can't stop every one of them, while we can find the exact lands we need.

And "final point": yes, Blood Moon is a problem. I run 6 BEB/Hydroblasts in SB and really like them.


@lilrikki2000: Daze vs. Counterspell: I already tried Daze in the deck and it felt good, sometimes being more powerful than CS, sometimes being worse. Main problem with Daze is the mana setback which can be in case of ITF really huge. While deck like Thrash has a really low curve, ITF on the other hand tries to resolve cards like Intuition or Pernicious Deed and use Loam engine.
So far I am fan of Daze as it gives us way to interact even during first turns of the game and while tapped out, but as you can see my opinion is not very highly valued by the fellow members - I am notorious innovator :cool:

[beastman]

You're wrong on almost all of your points. To wit:

1. Eternal Witness is really fucking strong.

So I hear that Counterbalance/Top does not, in fact, beat every deck ever, and that sometimes you even have to try to beat decks without relying on a soft lock. Goblins come to mind here. Go ahead, try to Counterbalance their Ringleader, or really do anything with it if they ever resolve Vial. Here, Eternal Witness is insanely good. In addition, it provides a lot of value against Landstill and decks with similar plans. If they aren't attacking you, THAT'S A GOOD THING. That's like trying to justify running less than 4 Counterbalance by saying, "Well, you're winning if you have one, so run 3 so you never see the second one!" Awful.

2. As for having a better plan: yes, sometimes you just Etched Oracle and pay 8 mana to draw Ancestral Recall every turn. Sometimes, though, you need to stop an attack deck, and drawing a 2/1 + a Swords to Plowshares every turn is really really good.

3. Having Stronghold can mean recurring not-Eternal Witness, too. Sometimes decks kill your Goyf. Getting those back can be good. It also contributes to furthering the soft-lock capabilities of Counterbalance by being able to put a 2 on top of your library in the late game, something that Ruins cannot do.

4. Your manabase is terrible. What do you ever want a third Underground Sea for? This deck wants Black the least of all its colors. Yes, Deed, sure, but aside from that only Etched Oracle, Stronghold, and EE on 4 want Black mana. Play 2. Also, 10 fetches is ridiculous. Enjoy the added life loss against aggro decks. The deck will run out of mana sources long before it runs out of fetchlands. You're actually increasing your dead draws lategame in exchange for absolutely nothing. Making the deck EVEN WORSE against Stifle is unappealing. If you're not a good enough player to play around Stifle, get better. There are ways to not get turn 1 fetchland Stifled. Believe me, I've beaten Canadian Thrash and Team America in matches where they held multiple Stifles. Why? Because it is actually pretty easy to not just cartwheel into Stifle.

One final point: with your manabase, you don't get to not run 4 Blue Elemental Blast, because you flat out lose to resolved Blood Moon. I don't like BEB much in this deck, and I have the relative luxury of cutting it because I run 1 Plains. Losing to Blood Moon is also unappealing. I don't really see what the deck gains with your changes, but I see a lot of what it loses.

Rawr! Do not anger Drew for he is a cranky monster!

Also, how in the world do you fully justify cutting stronghold? The deck is designed to win by simply recurring threats and answers, stronghold is one of your most powerful assets with intuition.

[zer0style]

Now I by now means endorse the cutting of Volrath's Stronghold or Eternal Witness, they're amazing and add so much to the deck, but I think some reasons that he would justify cutting them is the only thing he'd be recurring
with Stronghold if he didn't have Witness is Goyf, because he has Ruins for Oracle, and since Goyf usually gets SToPed, he's not in the graveyard to get recurred, so he thinks that it isn't worth it pretty much, that's just an argument from his point of view.
But again, I strongly discourage cutting Goyf and Witness, cause even with STP, Goyf goes to the graveyard, and I have recurred him from it, many times to win games too.
@Spare Parts: Also, what do you do when you need to Intuition up Goyfs to win, and you don't have Stronghold to bring the other two back from the yard? I know I'd really wish I was running Stronghold.

[jazzykat]

I'd like to point out 1 other reason to run witness and Stronghold:

You get to set up your counterbalance which is at the heart of the deck.
Ruins puts top (1), EE(0), and Oracle (4) on top of your deck
Stronghold puts Tarmogoyf (2) and Witness (3)

This is an integral part of the strategy.

Also to deal with opponents TGoyf, you don't always have a swords, so you can EE it away, sometimes with yours. The difference is that you recur yours.

Cutting Stronghold is mind boggling. Innovations are rad if they don't make your deck weaker.

[Spare Parts]

As I see it, there must be a fundamental difference in the way me and you, guys, play ITF.
I always play it safe. I do not Intuition for 3x Tarmogoyf, I simply wait for it. I try to always lock my opponent out. This last time in the semifinals I played like 10 turns of draw&go against Goyf Stompy while waiting for Goyf with assembled CB&Top@table (and goyf hovering on top as the only 2cc card the whole time).
You guys are probably playing it a lot more aggressively, going into risks with potential large gains. I'm not trying to say that it's a bad thing, hell no, it's just the part where me and you differ in our views of the deck.

So far my changes reflected my play style and served me really well. I will keep following "my way" as it seems it suits me well and keep you guys informed on my progress, even though it may be a dead end. Progress cannot be made while standing in one place, don't you agree? :wink:

Feel free to try my suggestions out. You may be surprised (or not - but there is only one way how to really find out) :laugh:

[Arsenal]

But that sorta embodies what ITF is; a deck that is versatile enough to go aggressive should the game permit, or sit back and play the safe, traditional control game.

IMO, you're focusing too much on the control aspect of it, which at that point, you're playing UBGx Landstill w/ CounterTop.

[Pelikanudo]

My innovations about the deck are :
-2 counterspell = +1 Glen Elendra + 1 Sowerof temptation ,

However I have to say I'm absolutly happy with the base list as it was made,
like solidarity it's a perfect conjunction of cards with a same purpose


Sparprts is in ritgh
Arsenal is in mistake
thats simple

[johanessen]

I'd like to point out 1 other reason to run witness and Stronghold:

You get to set up your counterbalance which is at the heart of the deck.
Ruins puts top (1), EE(0), and Oracle (4) on top of your deck
Stronghold puts Tarmogoyf (2) and Witness (3)

This is an integral part of the strategy.

Also to deal with opponents TGoyf, you don't always have a swords, so you can EE it away, sometimes with yours. The difference is that you recur yours.

Cutting Stronghold is mind boggling. Innovations are rad if they don't make your deck weaker.

Ruins also puts Shackles (3), and Stronghold can put Oracle (4) too

[zer0style]

How many people still play this deck consistently/in weekly tournaments? I do and I'd love for people who play this deck consistently or in weekly tournaments to maybe reports for this thread, and discuss, bad or good matchups, and sideboarding. I play this deck every sunday at my local store and am gonna try to write a tournament report one of these days if we have a good tournament. But I'd like to hear some feedback on peoples lists, good/bad matchups that they've encountered playing it, and how they sideboard.

[ansset]

-2 Counterspell -1 Shackles -1 Island +3 Ponder +1 Sensei's Divining Top.

Really. Try it. Your view of this deck will change completely. It's like, really good and stuff.


More to the point, the deck can beat almost anything if you have the right game plan. I'm not remotely afraid of NLU. Why? Because they're vulnerable to Counter/Top, and I always have inevitability because of Loam and two recursion lands. Same goes for Goblins (Tarmogoyf, Eternal Witness + Swords), same goes for Dreadstill (EE, KGrip, Counter/Top), the list goes on. This deck is all about knowing how to play against certain decks. Figure that out, and you'll notice you win a lot more games.

The deck is a Counterbalance/Top deck, yes. It is not, however, a pure control deck that does or can afford to sit around for seven turns, "locking" your opponent out with Counter/Top. Want to know why? Because those two cards do not actually mean you win the game. Other decks will just wait for you to do something relevant. That's why we have Tarmogoyf and Etched Oracle and recursion lands: because until we start clocking them, they don't have to do a damn thing. They can play draw-go until they have a sick hand, play a bunch of lands, cast their answer to Counterbalance, whatever that may be, and suddenly you realize that you've wasted seven turns. It needs the transition, because without a transition, it's just a near-creatureless version of Thresh. The reason we're better than Thresh in-game is because we have answers to their trumps, we have more removal, we have counterbalance, and we have a theoretically endless number of threats.


Sideboard cards:

BEB: Obvious in its applications, not currently in my sideboard. Not as good as Plague against Goblins, but a fine filler card if you see red decks in your metagame and have open slots.
Plague: Obvious. I play 4 and will continue to do so at every major tournament I attend where my lands tap for black mana.
Leyline: If you see that much Ichorid, it's a worthwhile card. Then again, you might be better off playing a different deck in that case.
Crypt: A constant 1-of or 3-of in my board, just because there are so many matchups where it has random utility and we play Intuition (Loam, Survival, Ichorid, 43land, the list goes on).
Krosan Grip: If you play less than 4 of this card in the sideboard of this deck, I will genuinely respect you less for it. This card is reasonable against almost all decks in Legacy and an absolute blowout against the rest of them.
Perish: A spicy 1-3-of that has applications against Thresh w/ Geese and random other green creatures, Loam, Progenitus, and lol elf survival. A narrow card, one that I'm still considering, but I've seen it in two tournament games, cast it both times for value (Goose + Goyf each time), and won as a direct result both times. Sometimes, you just want to Wrath them.
Path to Exile: 2-4 have made their way into my sideboard from time to time, as I respect Team America, I understand that their cards are all really good against us, and I know that their only weakness that we can attack (don't board in 3/4 Wastelands, they'll destroy us before Wastelands can make an impact) is their low threat density. Path is the ideal card to attack such a weakness. It has random other applications (boarded it in against Dragon Stompy for hilarious times to kill time waiting for one of my 2 EEs to take out their Blood Moon; worked), and it's a really reasonable card against Ichorid (you can almost play the inevitability game with them post-board, since they slow their deck down to bring in Needles and Chains and whatever else), but its inclusion is really just for Team America. There are better cards against all the other matchups.

Current sideboard:

4 Grip
4 Plague
1 Crypt

I don't see myself changing those 9 cards anytime soon.

2 Perish
2 Path to Exile
2 Blue Elemental Blast

These six are entirely up to you.

[zer0style]

So if what I'm getting is that you're saying that this deck needs to apply more pressure than just sit with countertop in play, why would you remove one of it's best threats, Shackles?
Just want to know your reasoning for it :)

[Spare Parts]

@annset: I foresee problems in CB performance with removing two 2cc cards and one 3cc card. I tried to replace Counterspells with other cards before (such as with Thoughtseize) but I witnessed sudden drop in effectivity of CB hits. With only eight 2cc drops (3 CB, 4 goyfs, LftL) left in the deck it becomes increasingly difficult to find one, even with SDT and fetch effects. Also, 2cc is most important number to hit with blind CB. Don't take me wrong, I love myself some Ponder, but in good conscience I just cannot justify futher cut in the number of 2cc cards in the deck.

PtE in SB? Interesting addition, against TA mainly... I don't see it really performing against other decks, however.
I am skipping on Plagues, running 4 more BEB instead - still good against Goblins, awesome against Dragon Stompy and nicely performing against Burn and Goyf Stompy (they use to bring Vexing Shusher in, this solves it).

I may try some toying with Ponder in the meantime, maybe I will find some place myself to squeeze it in. Spell Snare maybe? With Daze instead of CS to compensate?

[Misplayer]

If you're looking to cut Counterspell might I recommend -1 Etched Oracle, -2 Counterspell, +3 Dark Confidant. There's your card advantage and 2cc card for CB as well. It's also very nice to lot have to lose a draw when you're going for recursion. Your opponent MUST answer this card.

I board 2x Path to Exile in both Thresh and in Landstill for almost any man-based strategy not running Counterbalance. I've toyed with it in ITF, but with 4 colors there are some powerful hate cards you get access to, plus the additional removal in sweepers. I've moved to Propaganda from Plagues mostly for Merfolk with their lord effects; hitting 1 Propaganda is better against them than hitting 1 E. Plague. They also run Stifle effects for your sweepers, and frequently can walk right by your men. Path is good in this matchup too.

My current SB looks something like this:
3 Krosan Grip - can and has been 4, but I've had multiples stuck in my hand while my opponent drops Goyfs instead of Tops/Counterbalances. Three is enough for me right now.
3 BEB - Only if I expect Dragon Stompy
2 Tormod's Crypt - Dredge has been making regular appearances in my meta
2 Propaganda - Merfolk, Ichorid, Goblins, Elves (all in my meta), pitches to FoW
2 Pithing Needle - VIAL!!! Also Survival and Factory
2 Chainer's Edict - Not sold on this one; a flexible slot. This could be PtE if I don't think Progenitus is going to show up, as Edict is usually pretty narrow.
1 Vedalken Shackles - Also a flexible slot

The hardest part is what to take out when boarding. I usually just cut Intuition, Brainstorm, Deed, LftL, Goyf, Shackles, possibly another Brainstorm + FoW because I get super low on blue cards post-board usually. Obviously the above mentioned cards vary by matchup.

It's difficult to go below 3 of anything (read: Deed) because then you can no longer effectively tutor it up with Intuition. I'd be interested to know others' general sideboarding strategy when boarding out.

[Spare Parts]

If you're looking to cut Counterspell might I recommend -1 Etched Oracle, -2 Counterspell, +3 Dark Confidant. There's your card advantage and 2cc card for CB as well. It's also very nice to lot have to lose a draw when you're going for recursion. Your opponent MUST answer this card.

I board 2x Path to Exile in both Thresh and in Landstill for almost any man-based strategy not running Counterbalance. I've toyed with it in ITF, but with 4 colors there are some powerful hate cards you get access to, plus the additional removal in sweepers. I've moved to Propaganda from Plagues mostly for Merfolk with their lord effects; hitting 1 Propaganda is better against them than hitting 1 E. Plague. They also run Stifle effects for your sweepers, and frequently can walk right by your men. Path is good in this matchup too.

My current SB looks something like this:
3 Krosan Grip - can and has been 4, but I've had multiples stuck in my hand while my opponent drops Goyfs instead of Tops/Counterbalances. Three is enough for me right now.
3 BEB - Only if I expect Dragon Stompy
2 Tormod's Crypt - Dredge has been making regular appearances in my meta
2 Propaganda - Merfolk, Ichorid, Goblins, Elves (all in my meta), pitches to FoW
2 Pithing Needle - VIAL!!! Also Survival and Factory
2 Chainer's Edict - Not sold on this one; a flexible slot. This could be PtE if I don't think Progenitus is going to show up, as Edict is usually pretty narrow.
1 Vedalken Shackles - Also a flexible slot

The hardest part is what to take out when boarding. I usually just cut Intuition, Brainstorm, Deed, LftL, Goyf, Shackles, possibly another Brainstorm + FoW because I get super low on blue cards post-board usually. Obviously the above mentioned cards vary by matchup.

It's difficult to go below 3 of anything (read: Deed) because then you can no longer effectively tutor it up with Intuition. I'd be interested to know others' general sideboarding strategy when boarding out.Problem with Dark Confidant is that it is black - going below 20 blue cards maindeck is troublesome. What you did is exactly that, and even lower after sideboarding. 18 g1, even less g2 - why even bother playing FoW anymore? :)
We need our FoW up and running, like, every time we draw it to be able to interact during first 3 turns of game.

Pithing Needle may look as a great sideboard card on paper, but it is not - trust me on this. Against matchups where we need it, we want to use EE and Pernicious Deed - and thus end up blowing up our own Needle pretty often.

As to sideboarding - against fast decks I recommend to take out Intuition and toolbox - LftL, Oracle, maybe also Shackles (depends on matchup). That should make place for like 6 sb cards which is healthy number against aggro strategies.
Against decks where CB doesn't work, take out CBs and finally, against threshold with Mongeese and decks playing few creatures, take out a few StPs for Krosan Grips (not if they are playing Sowers!).

My sideboard looks something like this currently:
3x Krosan Grip
6x Hydroblast / BEB
2x Relic of Progenitus
1x Tormod's Crypt
3x Stifle

Split of Relic and Crypt to be able to Intuition for LftL+Ruins+"not needled artifact hoser" even after Pithing Needle was set.
Stifle is against ANT, but it may be switched for something else.

[jazzykat]

If you want to hose storm combo decks, I think you need either Duress or Orim's Chant.

[Spare Parts]

If you want to hose storm combo decks, I think you need either Duress or Orim's Chant.Those Stifles are pretty much in the air, I am still not convinced by any of the choices so far. What about, dunno, Ethersworn Canonist? It looks quite powerful (in the abstract). And you are right, Duress looks like it may be more powerful than Stifle although it is better to not underestimate the ability of ANT to goldfish from any topdecked Mystical Tutor or Ad Nauseam itself...

[Misplayer]

It's a matter of getting down Counterbalance and protecting it while you win. ITF can easily float 3 on top for Grip, even though a skilled opponent will know you're doing this. Regardless, a first turn Duress can either rip their protection if you have FoW, rip their integral nutty combo piece such as LED, or rip their Krosan Grip to pave the way for your Counterbalance. Ad Nauseam destroys the Stifle plan anyway because they use it to find their Duress/REB/Chant and go off extremely protected.

On Confidant, dropping to low blue cards is a risk I'm willing to take to play a bomb like Bob. It's a must answer card that will win you more games then you'll lose to not having a blue card to pitch to FoW in the early going, and will certainly win you more games than Counterspell. ITF has so many answers that there are few cards you absolutely cannot let resolve, with Counterbalance being right up there.

[Goaswerfraiejen]

With 14 cards with a CC of 3+ and 7 fetchlands, I'd think that your opponent would welcome Dark Confidant. Yes, of course you have access to some library manipulation--but you're asking it to do an awful lot, especially before you can get Top up and running.

If your testing shows that it works, then so be it--but on paper, I'd hesitate to run Dark Confidant over other options.

[ansset]

So if what I'm getting is that you're saying that this deck needs to apply more pressure than just sit with countertop in play, why would you remove one of it's best threats, Shackles?
Just want to know your reasoning for it :)

Because Shackles is miserable before turn 800,000, at which point you win anyways. Recur Witness into recur Deed, or just recur EE, blow all their stuff up, recur Cbalance if you had to nuke that as well, attack with Witness, then Witness, then Witness and Oracle, then Witness and Oracle and Goyf. Shackles is very simply unnecessary and a mull in the stage of the game where you're the most vulnerable.

[Citrus-God]

Because Shackles is miserable before turn 800,000, at which point you win anyways. Recur Witness into recur Deed, or just recur EE, blow all their stuff up, recur Cbalance if you had to nuke that as well, attack with Witness, then Witness, then Witness and Oracle, then Witness and Oracle and Goyf. Shackles is very simply unnecessary and a mull in the stage of the game where you're the most vulnerable.

But Shackles can apply pressure. Also, Deed + Witness is expensive. Shackles also helps in trouble situations where you need a blocker so you steal a Goyf.

[Ch@os]

Yes, and its a cc3 artifact target for Academy Ruins to counter for 3 with CB.

[Wargoos]

And gives your Goyf +1/+1 when in graveyard, but is not pitchable to force.

[rockSTAR]

Hi folks,

I currently don't have the time to test quite much, so before I waste time with this deck, that might not be the best choice in my meta I wanted to ask you about the following MUs:

Threshold (w / wo CB)
Landstill
Aggro Zoo / Goyfsligh / Gobbos
AggroLoam

THanks in advance!

[Spare Parts]

Hi folks,

I currently don't have the time to test quite much, so before I waste time with this deck, that might not be the best choice in my meta I wanted to ask you about the following MUs:

Threshold (w / wo CB)
Landstill
Aggro Zoo / Goyfsligh / Gobbos
AggroLoam

THanks in advance!From what I know, I would say that -
Threshold - awesome matchup. They are light on threats and their CB lock can't effectively stop ITF from recovering, while our CB lock wrecks them.
Landstill - I suppose you mean Uw version, it's basically a good matchup but heavily dependent on players.
Aggro Zoo / Goyfsligh - you can't lose in the war of tempo and if able to survive 3 turns on relatively high life total, the game is yours.
Goblins - CB lock is ineffective, fortunately ITF has quite a lot of sweepers. Still the matchup is quite bad depending mainly on the sideboard to give you proper answers to green men.
Aggro Loam - I cannot give you any advice on this MU, I don't have enough experience with playing against aggro loam although CB lock is pretty effective in stopping Loam engine from what I know.

[Misplayer]

I'd just like to add that Thresh is still largely a race to get down CB/Top, UWb Landstill will go LD on you which is quite painful if you can't get Loam up, Aggro-Loam can Waste-lock you (again, barring Loam) and Goblins can win with the tempo generated by just 1 Wasteland. Lastly, Goblins resilience to CB (which is not as great as advertised if you can flip for 3, just save Force for Ringleader) also makes them resilient to 2/5 of our sweepers. You want to see 4 Goyfs, 4 StPs and Force their Ringleaders in this matchup, after that it's smooth sailing.

So those are some pessimistic views on those matchups, but with ITF it's like Kevin Garnett: ANYTHING IS POSSIBLE!!!!!

[ansset]

All of those matchups are fine, depending on your ability to keep hands that can actually win:

Thresh: Just don't lose to Mongoose + Goyf + getting tempoed out. If they Daze you successfully twice, you're probably going to lose. Just kill their threats. They're pretty threat-light, so it's not the hardest thing ever. You have so much removal, so try to go 1-for-1 with them until you each have two cards, because typically one of your cards will be a trump (recursion land, Intuition, Deed, Oracle), and you win from there.

Landstill: Either you Counterbalance lock them, or the game goes super long and you win with Oracle recursion. You lose by sucking and getting Decree-cycled into getting multiple-counter'd. Just know what they're capable of and don't lose to it.

Goyf Sligh: Counter/Top lock them or lose.

Aggro Loam: Either they Wasteland you a lot and you lose, or you Counter/Top lock them and you win. Pretty simple.

[zer0style]

So those are some pessimistic views on those matchups, but with ITF it's like Kevin Garnett: ANYTHING IS POSSIBLE!!!!!

QFT. This weekend in my legacy tourney I beat merfolk with stifle, force, wasteland, and B2B round 1, I thought it was gonna go down hill after I lost the first game, but ITF rallied. :)

[bruno_tiete]

QFT. This weekend in my legacy tourney I beat merfolk with stifle, force, wasteland, and B2B round 1, I thought it was gonna go down hill after I lost the first game, but ITF rallied. :)

Last Saturday I played ITF in a 42-player tournament to a top4 finish. I beat Canadian Thresh, Dragonstompy, Burn and ProThresh, then dropped a match to Burn. After that I ID'ed with WW just to beat him in the top8.
I lost to Merfolk due to a absurd mana flood in game 1, in which I saw no Wastelands. Then I punted game 2 by not fetching basics (on the dumb dumb dumb assumption that he had no non-basic hate) and not being able to stop the 2nd FOW-back-up Back to Basics.

This deck is amazing, but I lost a game to burn due to simple Mogg Fanatic + Relic of Progenitus when I had mulliganed into 2x CB, Goyf Witness and 2 lands, on the draw against a still unknown opponent.

SB was

4 Tormod's
3 Pyroblast
1 BEB
3 Engineered Plague
2 Spell Snare
2 Krosan Grip

Tormod's went home untouched.

[Spare Parts]

Last Saturday I played ITF in a 42-player tournament to a top4 finish. I beat Canadian Thresh, Dragonstompy, Burn and ProThresh, then dropped a match to Burn. After that I ID'ed with WW just to beat him in the top8.
I lost to Merfolk due to a absurd mana flood in game 1, in which I saw no Wastelands. Then I punted game 2 by not fetching basics (on the dumb dumb dumb assumption that he had no non-basic hate) and not being able to stop the 2nd FOW-back-up Back to Basics.

This deck is amazing, but I lost a game to burn due to simple Mogg Fanatic + Relic of Progenitus when I had mulliganed into 2x CB, Goyf Witness and 2 lands, on the draw against a still unknown opponent.

SB was

4 Tormod's
3 Pyroblast
1 BEB
3 Engineered Plague
2 Spell Snare
2 Krosan Grip

Tormod's went home untouched.Nice finish, congratz!

If I may ask, Spell Snares are for threshold mirror matches? And, were they important? What were you sb'ing them for?

And now for something completely different!
There are decklists of "aggro-ITF" floating around, just FYI this is one of those - http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=25239

Deck was piloted to a T8 finish a few times here and there. Major changes -
addition of Dark Confidant (already recommended by few fellow forum dwellers)
addition of Mox Diamond, making t1 confidant or CB possible - and t1 Confidant backed up by Daze / FoW is good times. Also, heavily increases immunity to moon effects and LD strategies. I already thought 'bout Diamonds a while ago here and there, but never justified cutting Deed to be able to play it. Seems it may not be such a bad thing to do.

Those are things I really like, although they demand further changes to the deck, like cutting Deeds etc. Still, it may be fruitful to at least think about those cards as it may (or may not, but who knows) prove to be the right direction to take the deck.

[jeanbathez]

Nice finish, congratz!

If I may ask, Spell Snares are for threshold mirror matches? And, were they important? What were you sb'ing them for?

And now for something completely different!
There are decklists of "aggro-ITF" floating around, just FYI this is one of those - http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=25239

Deck was piloted to a T8 finish a few times here and there. Major changes -
addition of Dark Confidant (already recommended by few fellow forum dwellers)
addition of Mox Diamond, making t1 confidant or CB possible - and t1 Confidant backed up by Daze / FoW is good times. Also, heavily increases immunity to moon effects and LD strategies. I already thought 'bout Diamonds a while ago here and there, but never justified cutting Deed to be able to play it. Seems it may not be such a bad thing to do.

Those are things I really like, although they demand further changes in the deck, like cutting Deeds etc. Still, it may be fruitful to at least think about those cards as it may (or may not, but who knows) prove to be the right direction to take the deck.

If you are interested, "Aggro-ITF" is allready discussed here : http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13473

[bruno_tiete]

Nice finish, congratz!

If I may ask, Spell Snares are for threshold mirror matches? And, were they important? What were you sb'ing them for?


Sideboarding is something that hurts my head every round.

This is what I did in the matches played (and I have no clue if's right):

VS Canadian Thresh
- 1 Witness
- 1 Counterspell
+ 2 Spell Snare.

I believe my reasoning was that I cant lose in the late game.

VS Dragonstompy
-4 Counterbalance
-1 Witness
-1 Intuition
+2 Krosan Grip
+3 Hydroblast
+1 BEB

I did it because while CB can lock out 3ccs with relative ease in this matchup, one of them resolved tends to make it all pointless.

Vs Burn
Substitui o seguinte:
-3 Deeds
-2 Explosives
-1 Shackles
+2 Spell Snare
+3 Hydroblast
+1 BEB

Seems pretty obvious: dead weight for cards that stop stuff.

vs NO Thresh

I kept no notes of that game for it was a Feature Match which is still unpublished, but I believe I went:

-1 EExplosives
-1 Witness
+2 Spell Snare

Reasoning would be that I win the late game. Therefore, I will put efforts into getting there.


vs White Weenie

Maindeck does it all. I considered bringing in Plague for "Human", but every card in the main seemed stronger.


vs Merfolk

-1 Etched Oracle
-1 Witness
-1 Intuition
-1 Counterbalance
-1 Pernicious Deed

+3 Engineered Plague
+2 Spell Snare

Plagues were in the SB as additional Dredge and Goblins hate. Still, double plague is Game Over. Spell Snares here were for Standstill.

I am pretty sure I got this wrong, and I would like feedback.

Regarding Spell Snares, the worked as general purpose stop your gimmicks while on the draw. The where there because they are goog against combo, aggro and tempo when you win game 1. The field was too random for me to put specific hate in those last two slots. If I were to play the tournament, at least 1 Plague would be Hydroblast #4.
Despite not being paired once against Ichorid, several were ripping through the top tables. I wouldnt cut back on Crypts.

[lilrikki2000]

hey, do yall mind posting your weekly list?

[Arsenal]

Thoughts about running Acidic Slime in here as a one-of? It's pretty hefty at 5 mana, but it greatly affects the board once he hits play; deathtouch dissuades your Goyf-wielding opponent from swinging, he dodges Counterbalance, and he can kill Counterbalance/Shackles/etc.

[lilrikki2000]

that green 5 cc creature doesnt belong....


are ppl still satisfied w/ volrath's stronghold? I have barely used it(i know it is great w/ cb)...but i am def considering cutting it and trying ot wasteland

also i have never played and never wanted to play the witness....i def cut it....

side note: engineered plague is so helpfull!!!

[Spare Parts]

that green 5 cc creature doesnt belong....


are ppl still satisfied w/ volrath's stronghold? I have barely used it(i know it is great w/ cb)...but i am def considering cutting it and trying ot wasteland

also i have never played and never wanted to play the witness....i def cut it....

side note: engineered plague is so helpfull!!!At last some support to my cause :) I have cut Witness and Volrath's Stronghold from my deck a long time ago and never really missed it. This is my deck (no maindeck changes in 3/4 year or so)
// Lands
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
1 Breeding Pool
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
2 Windswept Heath
1 Island
1 Academy Ruins

// Creatures
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Etched Oracle

// Spells
2 Engineered Explosives
3 Pernicious Deed
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Intuition
1 Life from the Loam
4 Counterbalance
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Spell Snare
1 Vedalken Shackles
2 Daze

I have covered my changes quite extensively on last pages, where I defended some of my choices against critique. If you are interested, check last few pages for my posts and other discussion. I am running out of time, signing off..

[Ch@os]

ITF and DAZE?

Thats for sure not the way to go.

[Jak]

4 Spell Snare seems much better.

[lilrikki2000]

i agree....daze seems very weak in this deck, but I have been using spell snares...and they have been so great!! I helps vs every competitive deck and allows me to have the time to setup more optimal plays, esp when i am countering a goyf or a creature...

[Spare Parts]

What you do not realize is the fact that ITF needs precise amounts of 1cc, 2cc and 3cc cards in order to be able to use CB.
You can't hope to softlock opponent with CB when you have only seven 2cc cards in your deck! (4 goyfs, 3 CB). Dazes in my deck are in place of Counterspell, I know that there are better cards than Daze, but those cards do not cost 2 mana... if someone finds better 2cc card, I will happily replace the Daze with it.

[FredMaster]

Dazes in my deck are in place of Counterspell, I know that there are better cards than Daze, but those cards do not cost 2 mana... if someone finds better 2cc card, I will happily replace the Daze with it.
Hm... I'd have to suggest the CMC=2! Counterspells, you have just cut for Daze...
Logic?

[Spare Parts]

Hm... I'd have to suggest the CMC=2! Counterspells, you have just cut for Daze...
Logic?

Daze is better than Counterspell :) ... it helps to survive first few turns, while we have to tap out. Later in the game it is easy to filter with SDT and Brainstorm, or simply pitch to force. And it can be easily hardcasted. Just don't use it on 1st turn and it works rather nicely...

Obviously, it is quite dependent on your local metagame. If you have lots of Landstill, use Counterspell. In my aggro metagame, I never had time to cast Counterspell...

[lilrikki2000]

i am going to test out 1 Lonely Sandbar in the deck to c how that goes, it def gives the deck A little more draw, which can possibly make u win quicker, while still having lots of control in hand and can be abused w/ loam

[chokin]

ITF to me love the land drops. Daze goes against this imo. Daze is amazingly powerful early on and becomes Force fodder later. Counterspell is not strong with 1 island or before you get 2 out, but maintains strength from then on.

Although I've never tried it, Lonely Sandbar isn't a terrible draw engine. I'd run 2 though just to have Loam give me land drop and 2 draws that conveniently cost the same as Counterspell mana so I can hold them til EoT.

[Misplayer]

Steve Sadin played an ITF-ish variant at the SCG 5k on Sunday to a top-16 finish. I played him in round 6. He only ran 2 Intuition, no Witness, no Stronghold, no Deed in favor of more countermagic (Spell Snare) and somehow crammed 3 Factory and 1 Wasteland into a 4-color manabase. He also played Lonely Sandbar. I had no idea what he was playing during the actual match. I don't know how good his build is, but it's certainly interesting. He's a really nice guy as well.

[lilrikki2000]

has anyone had probs w/ red decks? have you tried circle of protection: red?? ive never played w/ it, but in theory it is in addition to cb, it is a guaranteed win vs burn and goyf sligh...and helps vs gobs

[jeanbathez]

Steve Sadin played an ITF-ish variant at the SCG 5k on Sunday to a top-16 finish. I played him in round 6. He only ran 2 Intuition, no Witness, no Stronghold, no Deed in favor of more countermagic (Spell Snare) and somehow crammed 3 Factory and 1 Wasteland into a 4-color manabase. He also played Lonely Sandbar. I had no idea what he was playing during the actual match. I don't know how good his build is, but it's certainly interesting. He's a really nice guy as well.

Here it is :

//CounterTop Goyf, by Steve Sadin
//Downloaded from StarCityGames.com
2 Counterspell
4 Island
4 Force of Will
3 Mishra's Factory
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
2 Spell Snare
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Trinket Mage
1 Vedalken Shackles
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Brainstorm
4 Flooded Strand
1 Lonely Sandbar
4 Polluted Delta
1 Life from the Loam
2 Intuition
1 Wasteland
1 Academy Ruins
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
2 Underground Sea

// Sideboard:
SB: 3 Duress
SB: 4 Engineered Plague
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 Hydroblast
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 3 Krosan Grip

Interesting List, i read somewhere that Gerry Thompson played a smilar list, but wasn't plesead with it.
It play 24 Lands, it counted correctly, thats very much, what do you think ?

[Destavi]

I just recently picked up this deck and I've got some questions for you all. The decklist I used was posted in this article with David Gearhart
http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11517&highlight=fear

A few things I noticed right away is that the Witness seems unnecessary, and I feel like it needs a Lonely Sandbar. Intuitioning for a pile with Witness is ungodly slow and just seems unneeded with the other recursion. The lack of a cycle land presented problems for me when I wanted to Life but couldn't because it ate my draw step as well. I'm going to try firing the Witness for a Spell Snare and dropping the V Stronghold for the aforementioned Sandbar. I might try to rework the mana or look at what other people have done to keep the Stronghold and add a Sandbar but the Witness has got to go.

I tested the original list against a CounterTop list that played Stifle and it was a beating. Stifle was ruinous. Not only does it slow down your mana but the fact that it counters the sweepers was backbreaking. I was also having problems with their CB, hence the change to add a Spell Snare. SS seems like it would help with tempo in general as well. I never cast an Etched Oracle, do people still like that card?

I really like what this deck is trying to do but if it gets stomped by Thresh I can't really justify playing it.

[Michael Keller]

A few things I noticed right away is that the Witness seems unnecessary, and I feel like it needs a Lonely Sandbar. Intuitioning for a pile with Witness is ungodly slow and just seems unneeded with the other recursion. The lack of a cycle land presented problems for me when I wanted to Life but couldn't because it ate my draw step as well. I'm going to try firing the Witness for a Spell Snare and dropping the V Stronghold for the aforementioned Sandbar. I might try to rework the mana or look at what other people have done to keep the Stronghold and add a Sandbar but the Witness has got to go.

Witness can really be used to its full capacity with serious Volrath's Stronghold recursion. Once that engine gets going, it can be difficult to stop (depending on what they're playing). There is, however, spot removal that can be quite troublesome. The Stronghold adds a level of recursion that could be critical when attempting to bring back important creatures, say for blocking, attacking for the win, etc.

I can see the logic about the Sandbar with Loam, but that too could be seen as "ungodly" slow based on what you're trying to do. If you are staring down an alpha strike and you need help, dropping that Witness and grabbing a key spell could mean the difference between losing and winning, or at the very least stabilizing.

[Spare Parts]

I just recently picked up this deck and I've got some questions for you all. The decklist I used was posted in this article with David Gearhart
http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11517&highlight=fear

A few things I noticed right away is that the Witness seems unnecessary, and I feel like it needs a Lonely Sandbar. Intuitioning for a pile with Witness is ungodly slow and just seems unneeded with the other recursion. The lack of a cycle land presented problems for me when I wanted to Life but couldn't because it ate my draw step as well. I'm going to try firing the Witness for a Spell Snare and dropping the V Stronghold for the aforementioned Sandbar. I might try to rework the mana or look at what other people have done to keep the Stronghold and add a Sandbar but the Witness has got to go.

I tested the original list against a CounterTop list that played Stifle and it was a beating. Stifle was ruinous. Not only does it slow down your mana but the fact that it counters the sweepers was backbreaking. I was also having problems with their CB, hence the change to add a Spell Snare. SS seems like it would help with tempo in general as well. I never cast an Etched Oracle, do people still like that card?

I really like what this deck is trying to do but if it gets stomped by Thresh I can't really justify playing it.

Well yes, I too believe that Witness recursion is too slow and clunky, as I had repeatedly stated in this very forum. :D
But I don't know about Lonely Sandbar - I understand where this is going, but I have tried playing LftL with only one cycling land before, and the results were quite... bad. This way you dredge LftL, play it for 2 mana, cycle the Sandbar and after investing 3 mana, you just got to draw the normal one card for your turn. Which means that you can't use it to gain card advantage - you only trade one dredge for one draw.
The reason to include Sandbar may be only to build Intuition piles, where you immediately get access to LftL (as you already have stated in your post). That may be quite important if you play Wasteland and/or Mishra's Factory. Pile of LftL+Wasteland+Sandbar gets you the Wasteland "right here and now".

I can't possibly imagine the build of Thresh that you are repeatedly losing against. Last time I played against Thresh, it CB+Top locked me twice during the same game, and I broke out rather easily both times. But I play Daze maindeck (do not try this at home! :D) and I was able to fight through his early tempo gain (Stifle on my fetch) both games.

The addition of Spell Snares is awesome, but remember - you have to keep at least 10 2cc spells in the deck, in order to fully utilize to power of CB. Cutting the Witness for Spell Snare - great. Cutting the Counterspell for it - not so much.

Etched Oracle - I'm not sure about this card. I want to have some kind of unstoppable unkillable recurrable kill condition, and Oracle fits this description. If you ever come at something that fits this description as well, all while being better than Oracle, share this wisdom with me please.

[deadlock]

What do you think of a build like this:


// Lands
4 [B] Tropical Island
2 [B] Tundra
1 [SHM] Plains (3)
3 [RAV] Island (1)
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
4 [Zan?] Misty Rainforest
1 [RAV] Forest (1)

// Creatures
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
3 [CFX] Noble Hierarch
1 [JU] Genesis
1 [FD] Eternal Witness

// Spells
1 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
1 [DIS] Spell Snare (two in the board)
1 [FD] Vedalken Shackles
4 [CS] Counterbalance
2 [MM] Counterspell
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
4 [IA] Brainstorm
4 [IA] Swords to Plowshares
4 [TE] Intuition
1 [RAV] Life from the Loam

Notes:
-One big chance is to drop black for more manabase stability. Therefore i added Genesis as creature recursion engine. If you think its not good enough, at least consider it as a sb option.
-Theres also the possibility to remove Genesis and two lands for Volraths Stronghold and two Underground Sea, which would also enable Etched Oracle again.
-Additionally i added 4 Hierarch for stability / accel (which also made Deed worse).
-Blue count is only 18 spells. I would like to fit in a couple of Spell Snares.

[beastman]

Noble heirarch has no place in this deck, I'd sooner run mox diamond. I do kind of like the inclusion of genesis, but I'm not sure you have a way to assuredly get him in the graveyard, or that you have enough creatures to justify his inclusion.

[Knoll]

Hi guys, after 2 months of testing i decided to try out "ITF" into two tournaments (32 & 50 partecipants) that were organized in Milan before the super-eternal event "EuroOvino4" and i must admit that i was really impressed about this deck performances...
I managed to win the 1st one and get to top4 in the second one with the following list:

“ITF, It’s The Fear”

Maindeck :

4 Tarmogoyf
1 Eternal Witness
1 Etched Oracle

4 Swords To Plowshares

4 Force of Will
2 Counterspell
4 Counterbalance

1 Engineered Explosives
1 Vedalken Shackles
3 Pernicious Deed

4 Brainstorm
3 Sensei’s Divining Top
4 Intuition

1 Crucible of worlds
1 Life from the Loam

4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
4 Tropical Island
3 Underground sea
2 Tundra
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Wasteland
1 Volrath’s Stronghold
1 Academy Ruins


Sideboard :
3 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Krosan Grip
3 Ghastly Demise
3 Engineered Plague
3 Tormod’s Crypt

The only difference between mine and Deep6er's classic list was the addiction of 1 crucible in place of an Engineered Explosives and of 1 wasteland for a polluted delta... made the choice because here in Milan we are full of landstill players and vs them crucible+waste recursion is just the nuts.
The SB was tuned VS goblins and merfolks that are also pretty popular here.
I was really satisfied by the crucible but sometimes i have to admit that i missed the 2nd E.E., expecially in the 1st match vs some aggro decks.

For the next events i would like to test the following SB settings since the only matchups where i had a really hard time were VS AggroLoam (tho i didn't saw a single counterbalance=autowin in 6 matches -.-):

3 BeB
3 Krosan
4 Engineered plagues
3 Extirpates
2 Tormod crypts

What you think about this setup? and expecially what you think about the 1 crucible / 1 waste MD?

Let's keep the topic active cause ITF it's the win!

[Speck]

Savage NECRO!!!

I love this deck and I know it's still being played and well in fact. I've recently been dreaming of adding 3 Bloodghast to this deck to be able to apply hectic pressure through intuition. Bloodghast is such a savage creature for control because it requires no mana investment and keeps coming back for doing what control does best, playing lands. Combined with the other elements of this deck (read goyf) it seems like it would be amazing at just stealing wins and bitch slapping the opponent out of nowhere.
I cant quite figure out what to cut yet though and Im a bit worried the deck would be too reliant on the graveyard but I rate it might just be worth a try.

Thoughts?

[Knoll]

woot... there is life on this thread!
Tbh i don't think that bloodghast isn'tthe best choice for a control deck since it can't block... and well the main problem for ITF are aggro decks that overwhelms you with beasts that you actually need to stop somehow :/

Btw during the last month managed to get 2 more top8s with ITF trying a new SB focused to beat zoo/goblin and merfolks that are actually overplayed here...

4 Blue elem blast
4 Path to exile
2 Krosan grip
3 Extirpate
2 Tormod's crypt

Thoughts?

[Speck]

Knoll: I see your point however I was kinda thinking that they might be forced to play differently, perhaps holding back a bit. Anyways I still want to see if it works out that way. Nice sideboard btw how have the extripates been? I currently dont run any as I feel they dont change the game state enough however maybe I should. Have you not missed the extra grip ? Cudos on the top 8s.

EDIT: Did some testing and you guys are right it blows in this. My bad.

[Hanni]

Bloodghast in here makes no sense.

If you're talking about adding win conditions that can be grabbed through Intuition and work well with the normal synergy of the Intuition/Loam engine, Gigapede and Worm Harvest are the cards you're looking for, not Bloodghast.

[Knoll]

@ Speck : I like the extirpates expecially vs control matchups (standstill, randomish countertop ) since the longer the game goes the better their effect comes out... also, vs canadian thresh & aggroloam, that are getting some good t8 placements recently, they are quite cool.

@ Hanni: i like the idea of the harvest but...
1st. What would you remove from a list that is already tuned to work quite perfectly?

2nd. I feel that by adding W.A. i would just have one more card in the list of those that i don't want to see in my opening hand... and they are already quite enough tbh (witness, oracle, volrath, ruins, deeds ) :frown:

[Goaswerfraiejen]

@ Hanni: i like the idea of the harvest but...
1st. What would you remove from a list that is already tuned to work quite perfectly?

2nd. I feel that by adding W.A. i would just have one more card in the list of those that i don't want to see in my opening hand... and they are already quite enough tbh (witness, oracle, volrath, ruins, deeds ) :frown:

He was just saying that it was better than Bloodghast, since it (or Gigapede) can be fetched with Intuition and has synergy with other aspects of the deck. I don't see anything in the list you posted that you can really afford to cut for it.

[chokin]

Has anyone considered Jace in ITF? I know Etched Oracle is easier to manipulate and setup, but it's like 2UUGBW - Target player draws 3 cards and is a beater. Jace is just a unaffected by Mr. Deeds.

[paK0]

Ok, I picked up the Deck and have a lot of fun with it (but I never struggled as much as now to learn how to play with a deck XD).

Anyways, can someone give me a little bit of help on the sideboarding?

I use the following and I think its the right call:
4 Extirpate
3 Krosan Grip
2 Life from the Loam
3 Hydroblast
3 Engeneered Plague


But I feel like I side out the wrong cards to often. Can someone give me a breakdown of what I can take out safely in some common matchups?

[Muradin]

But I feel like I side out the wrong cards to often. Can someone give me a breakdown of what I can take out safely in some common matchups?

Against decks that put a strain on your mana base or when speed is important I always used to take out Eternal Witness and sometimes Etched Oracle and with them at least 1 Intuition.

Against Combo and so on Vedalken Shackles and some of your removal ain't that good obviously. Against Canadian Threshold, Counterspell is quite weak as they have Spell Snare to counter back and I feel that counterspell is in general quite weak in this deck and only needed to fill up the cc2 slot and to up the blue count for Force of Will. Your sideboard seems to be geared alot towards beating control decks, so in those matchups where you have a lot of cards to bring in, take out a bunch of removal, you'll still have plenty of it.


Recently I've been working on a deck quite similar to ITF but tried to make it less clunky and less vulnerable to nonbasic land hosers and mana disruption in general.

3 Island
1 PLains
1 Forest
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Flooded Strand
3 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
1 Academy Ruins

4 Tarmogoyf
1 Etched Oracle

4 Counterbalance
4 Spell Snare
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
2 Counterspell
4 Swords To Plowshares
3 Engineered Explosives
1 Vedalken Shackles

3 Intuition
1 Life from the Loam

Sideboard:
3 Firespout
3 Krosan Grip
2 Kitchen Finks
2 Path to Exile
1 Worm Harvest
2 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Vendillion Clique

The deck plays a standard UGW Threshold manabase with 1 additional Academy Ruins which is very solid. It drops some of the aggro and has a very strong lategame with Oracle + Intuition / Shackles...

Explosives, Goyf, Stop, CB + TOP, 4 Snares and especially the sideboard make aggro matchups favorable. I am still having Problems with Dredge but I feel that the matchup is bad enough to be simply ignored.

What I would still call very strong would be 2 Cunning Wish with a small wishboard instead of Counterspell, but I fear those are needed for the curve. Do you have any suggestions on how to improve this?

[jazzykat]

I think that you are very close to counter top lists. You are also missing the Volrath's stronghold to bring back your Tarmogoyfs.

What have your testing results shown?

[Serbitar]

I suppose there is widespread agreement that this deck wants the fourth Top. But what to cut? For curve reasons, it should be a 1cc, but you can't really cut any of those. I myself cut Witness (to the board for the control matchup), but am not really happy with it. The card I am boarding out most frequently is actually Deed, but that might be due to matchups... if it isn't however, I might arrive at a list similar to Muradin's (though I would never cut an Intution). I also dislike the low amount of 3cc in that list (maybe MD Firespout?) - consistently balancing 3cc is what makes this deck awesome.

That said, I won a local tournament yesterday (facing Rifter, AggroLoam, Sligh/Burn, Landstill) with the following list:

4 Misty Rainforest
4 Flooded Strand
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
2 Tundra
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Forest
1 Academy Ruins
1 Volrath's Stronghold

4 Tarmogoyf
1 Etched Oracle

4 Counterbalance
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Intuition
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
2 Counterspell

4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Vedalken Shackles
1 Life from the Loam

Board
4 Path to Exile
4 BEB
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Krosan Grip
1 Eternal Witness
1 Wasteland (I wanted another card to bring in for the control matchup, and this worked rather well)

[Spare Parts]

I am thinking about running an aggro-ITF-ish build in Madrid, may I start dissecting it here, ot rather move to another topic? As it is, discussion about ITF almost died out - it is still being played, no doubt, but maindeck is so heavily refined that there is almost nothing to change / discuss anymore :D
Well, for those who do not know what the "aggro ITF" means, it's basically ITF, when you add Mox Diamonds (adding resistance to nonbasic hate and solidifying manabase - remember that diamond makes rainbow mana!) and Dark Confidants, while removing Pernicious Deeds at the same time (non-bo with Moxen).

Serbitar: I would quite simply cut 1 StP for SDT, if you want to play it so much. Only 3 StP mean it can still be Intuitioned for, and lessens the stress put on the manabase. It is 1cc for 1cc so no problem here... it mainly depends on your local metagame I guess :) Or go down to 3 Intuition, many players did so aswell...

[Misplayer]

I feel like you need Deed in order to keep up with the fast aggro of the current metagame. Dropping Deed for Confidant makes the Zoo/Merfolk matchups SO much worse.

I think the lack of discussion is because the deck is tight on slots. There are probably 27 non-negotiable maindeck slots plus 22 lands leaves you 11 cards to tinker with and that's a stretch. Personally, I run Witness over Oracle, Confidant over Counterspell/Shackles.

I feel like Witness is huge if you want to make some ridiculous Intuition piles, especially if you already have Stronghold in play. I don't need Oracle because I get CA from Confidant. It works pretty well, but I haven't played it in months because (A) it has an easily disrupted manabase (obviously because it's 4C, but also because this deck is INCREDIBLY mana-hungry) and (B) if you don't draw heavy removal you'll get blown out by fast aggro. Intuition is just too slow mid-game, because by the time you've set up some kind of lock (CB/Top, EE/Ruins, Stronghold/Witness/Swords), you're usually too far behind.

[Serbitar]

I don't think cutting StP for Top works. While it doesn't change the curve, this deck is already fragile against real aggro decks (like Zoo), which are quite popular right now. I would rather take out a Brainstorm, though only rather, not really...
So, you think, three Tops is fine?

I also think, you can't cut Intuition. Intuition is the reason to play this deck. You want one or even multiples every game. While it is slow against dedicated aggro, it shines in every other matchup (an even in the aggro match, should you get a turn to 'breathe').

[paK0]

ok, i need some help right now. There is a big tournament comeing around (Hanau) and i really wanna play ITF. I thinkt the following list should do the trick:

// Lands
2 [B] Tundra
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
1 [SH] Volrath's Stronghold
1 [9E] Plains (1)
1 [BD] Island (3)
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
3 [A] Underground Sea
4 [A] Tropical Island
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [SHM] Forest (1)

// Creatures
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
1 [FD] Etched Oracle
1 [FD] Eternal Witness

// Spells
3 [AP] Pernicious Deed
1 [RAV] Life from the Loam
4 [TE] Intuition
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [BD] Brainstorm
4 [R] Swords to Plowshares
2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
1 [FD] Vedalken Shackles
4 [CS] Counterbalance
1 [DD2] Counterspell
4 [AL] Force of Will
1 [DIS] Spell Snare





However i am struggling with the sb. Right now its in the current form:

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [RAV] Life from the Loam
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 3 [CFX] Path to Exile
SB: 1 [FNM] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 [MR] Chalice of the Void




It was ok, but I feel like it could be better. I thought I post my matchups and you guy help me with a sb for it ( I couldn't test as much as I wanted q.q)

Very common:
Storm, Bant-Survival, Loam (Aggro as well as slower stuff), Canadian *****, Enchantress

others: Dredge, Landstill, all kinds of Tribal and Stompys in all colours, GoyfSlight and Zoo, Dreadstill and CTop

I know that it is really all over the field but I wanted to know how the sb could be improved.

3 Extirpate + 1 Crypt should be the right call to beat all the graveyard stuff.

3 Grip vs. The Ctop/Dreadstill, Stompys and Enchantress

3 Pte vs Tribal

2 Loam vs the stuff that kicks your lands =).

3 Chalice for Storm.


Ok, the main problem I have with this: I have a reeealy hard time vs. Bant Sur. On the Top tables over here you are sure to play vs one of them so I wanna be prepared. Same goes for Storm, I had hardly any tournament where i didn't have to face it so I cannot afford to lose to Storm (55% would be very desirable). Are there better options than Chalice?. Also RWM seems to be pretty good in some MUs, but I could not make space.


So, this is it, help is really appreciated since time is running out =).

[loveisgreen]

I've had a fair amount of success with this deck against tier 1 decks that aren't merfolk (4-0 vs. Zoo, 5-0 vs. Countertop, 1-0 vs. ANT, 1-3 vs. Merfolk), but the list I'm playing is a little strange:

4 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
1 Volcanic Island
1 Underground Sea
4 Flooded Strand
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Forest
1 Academy Ruins
1 Volrath's Stronghold

4 Tarmogoyf
3 Kitchen Finks
1 Eternal Witness
1 Etched Oracle

4 Counterbalance
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Force of Will
2 Counterspell
3 Intuition
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
3 Firespout
1 Life from the Loam

SB:
3x Serenity
3x Relic of Progenitus
2x Krosan Grip
1x Worm Harvest
1x Engineered Explosives
3x Hydroblast
2x Arcane Laboratory


The CC distribution is a little odd, but I rarely have a hard time setting up the soft lock:

1:11
2:11
3:10
4:1
5:4

I also like Firespout much better than Deed. It's a turn faster and it completely demolishes zoo alongside Kitchen Finks. Your mana gets a little worse but that's a price I'm willing to pay. Another downside is that it doesn't hit Vial or crucible and it's MUCH worse against stax (obviously).

[jazzykat]

@lvgreen: I am intrigued as to where you have taken the deck but here are some thoughts I immediately had:

Finks>?RWM You play alot of blue sources so the color requirement for RWM is almost as bad as the color requirements for Finks. Do you really need the 2 life immediately? RWM is immune to firespout as well!

Only 1 EE? That makes me sort of sad especially when you mention vial as a problem.

Lastly, what is Arcane Laboratory for? Is that just to confuse me?

This deck is straying into the realm of the intuition/loam control deck but I like your take on it better.

[loveisgreen]

A lot of the card choices are due to the meta. I played against 2 Fires of Yavimaya (?) decks last monday and almost got demolished. Counterbalance gets boarded out almost 50% of my matches and explosives is difficult to defend when my opponents are played standard Jund. Lab was a mistake, I saw 3 ANT players at the last event and panicked, Arcane Lab was the only card I had with me.

That being said, I think Kitchen Finks is superior to RWM due to the fact that he kills two dudes, is much better than RWM when stronghold comes online, and survives Wrath of God. Also, in the realm of an STP, he gains you 5 instead of 3. The fact that it isn't a blue card to pitch to force has been a non- issue thus far.

[Spare Parts]

I don't know if you are already aware or not, but this very last weekend ITF finished top4 at the Legacy side-event of the GP Brussels (200+ players I believe, 2000 EUR in prizes). Top 4 didn't play and instead opted for a split, but the ITF went into the top 8 undefeated, with the record 6-0-2 (ID last 2 rounds) and then advanced safely into the top 4.
How do I know? It was my deck :D ... but in the hands of my friend, because I was busy playing day 2 of the main event and finishing in the 11th place (yeah, that's me sitting right there on the 11th place in the final standings, look it up if you want to associate my name with the forum account - but I am not a pro, so theres probably no reason to do so). But back to the deck - I have to admit I was pretty surprised to see it perform so well, sideboard was a mess - I took only like 20 random cards with me that could be sideboarded and we had to work with that.

Back to the deck - it was the red version of the deck, dumping black mana entirely in favor of Firespouts (instead of Deeds) to fight the Zoo and Merfolk. 2 CS and 2 Spell Snare maindeck, 3 Firespouts, 2 EE, 4 StP. Only 3 Intuition. 22 lands, 3 of them were islands. Wasteland in the SB. Creatures were 4 Tarmos, 1 Etched Oracle.

I am sad I forgot to add singleton Bojuka Bog maindeck, it seemed pretty awesome on the paper (even though black mana is as good as colorless). It was just too late when I was putting the deck together, and I was pretty wasted from playing magic for 2 consecutive days (I had to win a trial (LCQ) on friday prior to the GP).

All-in-all, I am pretty happy that the deck is still alive and kicking, so give it a try and you won't be disappointed - it still has what it takes to compete in this diverse metagame :)

Oh, yes, what did he met? - from what I remember, it was like Smallpox+LftL rock deck, 2 ANT, 1 Hive Mind, 1 Bant... and I forgot the last one and the top 8 match, sorry.

[Waikiki]

could you post the exact list with sb or PM it to me? Wasn't stronghold missed to start topdecking goyfs?

[Spare Parts]

could you post the exact list with sb or PM it to me? Wasn't stronghold missed to start topdecking goyfs?
// Lands
3 Tropical Island
1 Academy Ruins
3 Island
3 Volcanic Island
3 Tundra
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
1 Misty Rainforest

// Creatures
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Etched Oracle

// Spells
2 Spell Snare
2 Counterspell
4 Counterbalance
3 Firespout
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Life from the Loam
1 Vedalken Shackles
2 Engineered Explosives
3 Intuition

// Sideboard
3 Tormod's Crypt
1 Leyline of the Void
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Krosan Grip
3 Hydroblast
1 Stifle
1 Wasteland
3 Threads of Disloyalty
1 Ethersworn Canonist

This is my "reconstruction" of the deck :D As I said, the sideboard is a big stinky pile. Maybe one land should be dropped for a 3rd EE (to be able to Intuition for them directly) and 1 Volcanic island can be changed for an Island (no need for 3 red mana sources). Or keep 22 lands and change 1 Island to a Bojuka Bog (to be able to Intuition for GY hate game 1).
I'm not too proud of this particular decklist, but I guess it had something going for it... or the guy was extremely lucky :D

I dropped the Stronghold long time ago, and didn't miss it at all. Remember that recurring Etched Oracle is able to end the game quickly as well... even if an opponent has a bigger blocker, drawing 3 extra cards each 1 or 2 turns really does make a difference.

[Spare Parts]

Last weekend I attended GP Lyon and managed to play in the Legacy side-event on Sunday. Deck performed miraculously, and even though I screwed up in one round (which cost me the chance to top8) I finished 17th (yeah, right behind the prizes - 8boo of RoE instead of 36 boo of Future Sight...). I am not exactly sure how many people attended, though I am sure it was over 100. I would guess somewhere around 120.

Short report:

1st round - Bant w/o Progenitus: opponent didn't play too well, both games were rather easy. Intuition -> recursion -> win in G1 and CB+Top -> win in G2.

2nd round - Bant w/o Progenitus: better opponent, still an easy matchup. Same as 1st round. Rhox War Monk is the worst card ever against me.

3rd round - Rb Goblins - G1 I managed to assemble CB lock with Oracle and FoW on top - courtesy of some clever Intuition, Academy Ruins and Brainstorm tricks. G2 I got destroyed by sideboarded Earwig Squad after a long and valiant fight. Last game ended in extra rounds with us both having empty hands and only 1 creature on the table - mine goyf. Unfortunately it wasn't fast enough and it was a draw.

4th round - Monoblack Vampires: Now comes the worst story of the tourney. I lost G1 - I kept 4 lands, drawn 5 more and died. G2 I had in a bag, but my opponnet had active Volrath's Stronghold and only thing he was doing was returning creature and playing it. Each turn. I killed him, obviously, but there was no time left to finish last game, and I got another draw. And that point I was pretty angry, because I repeatedly asked my opponent to play quicker, or to concede and go on to play the last game (there was no chance to win that game for him anymore). I guess he was hoping he will be able to stall out win at 1:0 or something, that little bastard he was.

5th round - another Bant. My opponent was playing so slowly (he had 2 draws as well) that after the G1 I had to ask a judge to keep an eye on him (he was sideboarding for over 3 minutes and shuffling another 2). I won G2 in the last turn of extra turns.

6th round - and once again, Bant, this time /w Progenitus. This is the round I misplayed, and got destroyed by a Daze BOTH games. G1 I played EE with free mana, but didnt realize that after a Daze, I won't be able to activate it. G2, I foolishly tapped out and got my ass handed to me by Natural Order backed up by Daze against my FoW.

7th round - monoblue Stax - I have no idea how his deck wins, but sure as hell my recursion engine was giving him headaches :D ... he held my goyfs in check with multiple Maze of Ith, but weren't able to cast any card through my CB+Top (Oracle and Intuition on top). He conceded G1 and we didn't finish G2 - I was never trying to actually win G2, because I was pretty sure he just can't kill me in any way.

8th round - ANT: Hehe, bye in the last round? Finished in under 20 minutes.

Final results 5-1-2, 17th place.

This is my decklist for the tournament:
// Lands
3 Tropical Island
1 Academy Ruins
3 Island
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Volcanic Island
3 Tundra
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
1 Misty Rainforest

// Creatures
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Etched Oracle

// Spells
2 Spell Snare
2 Counterspell
4 Counterbalance
3 Firespout
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Life from the Loam
1 Vedalken Shackles
2 Engineered Explosives
3 Intuition

Sideboard:
3 Krosan Grip
1 Ancient Grudge
3 Hydroblast
1 Ethersworn Canonist
4 Tormod's Crypt
3 Threads of Disloyalty

Instead of Threads I will try some Pyroblasts and I have to squeeze 1 Wasteland somwhere into the 75. Otherwise I am pretty satisfied with the deck. I just have to learn to play it better :D My both draws would be wins, if I had more time - I will have to learn to play EVEN FASTER than I already am. ITF makes so many actions every turn... even at the fastest possible pace, the time it takes to top, draw, top, fetch, top, play a card, pass, top is just so long...

[Lull]

Have you considered adding Punishing Fire and Grove? It seems like it could be relevant, especially since you're running green, red, Intuition, and Life from the Loam. I mean it's like GG against Merfolk right?

[Rancorous Fool]

I played a similar deck to these at vestal to 10th place. It was mediocre. Of the 5 games I lost, 3 were to 2+ waste lands.

Manas
1 island
7 blue fetches
3 waste
3 factory
1 v stronghold
1 acad ruins
4 sea
4 trop

Spells
4 brainstorm
4 standstill
2 gifts ungiven
3 jace TMS
2 Loam

1 eternal witness
1 shriekmaw
1 vendilian clique

3 DEED
1 Engineered explosives
4 innocent blood

4 force of will
3 counterspell
1 forbid
2 spell pierce

SB
3 tormod's crypt
1 E/E
1 clique
1 shriekmaw
1 gifts
2 spell pierce
3 BEB (terrible)
1 karakas
2? prolly something bad

It worked out pretty well. I never lost a game in which gifts ungiven resolved. The recursion lands were fairly bad and very slow. I won about half my games via jace ultimate or via scoop under forbid lock. I will play fewer waste lands of my own in the future. I found them useless as I was rarely able to take advantage of the tempo gains they create. Their long game lock factor was excelent versus New horizons and even decks with plent of basics.

Things I would love to do but won't:
Play exploration. Seriously, if i could have played exploration in some of those games it would have been an absolute blow out with multiple wastes per turn or turn 2 jace TMS. Imagine for a moment, turn 2 Jace TMS.

I have also been contemplating garruk in gifts slots, but i don't think he is as strong.

[Nidd]

Alright, I was preparing for a small online tourney with some folks and I knew I wanted to play something featuring CounterTop. I liked the feel of Supreme Blue, but I figured I wanted to play something more... classic. Also, I wanted to play Perish in my SB, so Supreme Blue was out of question.
I began testing Supreme Blue and I ripped out White, replaced it with Black - it went well, but felt a bit awkward at times.
That's when I remembered It's The Fear.
I picked up an old list and began testing - after some slight adjustments to the manabase ofc.

The deck felt strong, but was a bit wanna-be - it couldn't seal the deal fast enough. Hexmage + Dephts was added. Then dismissed. ThopterSword was added. The aggro MUs improved.
Pernicious Deed got worse and worse, it's too slow and I didn't want to wipe my own board with it every time. I figured I could pull White, replace StP with Ghastly Demise and Deed with Firespout - it worked.

In testing, the deck could hold itself quite well, felt a bit shaky at times but it's a raw sketch after all. I decided I'd play this deck at the tournament.

Round 1, Pikula.
G1: He starts his discard shenanigans and I act as if I don't care with T1 SDT, T2 CB, T3 Goyf. he scoops.
G2: T1 SDT, T2 Goyf, T3 Goyf, T4 Intuition and get Thopters flowing in. He scoops.

Round 2, UW Landstill.
G1: I keep a 1-lander with SDT and Brainstorm. T6 I find my second land while he chains Standstills and starts beatdown with a Factory. T9 I find my third land. Sadface.
G2: He chains Standstills, I chain Goyfs. Sadly, he chains StP without me having CB. With about 9 lands in play he EoT cycles Decree, then casts Elspeth and beats in with the tokens + a factory. 9 damage is enough to take me down.

Round3, UWbg CounterThopters.
G1: We both assemble Thopters, but I also resolve a Jace and start Brainstorming for CA. He gets overwhelmed by my Thopters, as I continously make landdrops (thx Loam!), but he misses some.
G2: Both try to get engines going, I assemble CounterTop, he O-Rings CB. I topdeck another one. I resolve a Jace. He assembles ThopterSword, but I have the Extirpate.

Finally, here is my list:

// Lands
1 [ALA] Forest
3 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
2 [B] Underground Sea
2 [U] Bayou
1 [DM] Swamp
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [B] Tropical Island
2 [APL] Island
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
1 [SH] Volrath's Stronghold
1 [JGC] Wooded Foothills
1 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
1 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
1 [B] Taiga
1 [U] Volcanic Island

// Creatures
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
1 [FD] Eternal Witness

// Spells
2 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 [4E] Counterspell
4 [FNM] Brainstorm
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [CS] Counterbalance
4 [TE] Intuition
1 [RAV] Life from the Loam
4 [V09] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [OD] Ghastly Demise
1 [FUT] Sword of the Meek
1 [ARB] Thopter Foundry
3 [SHM] Firespout

Questions/Criticism?

[sa17dk]

@Nidd

I really like your list because it cuts the white and plays the 4 basics. I honestly dont understand why people get so greedy with their manabases then cry about losing to wasteland. There are so many times I've cringed watching players unnecessarily fetch a dual only to get it wasted a turn later and be manascrewed. This applies to many decks, but control decks need their mana the most.

How has the V.Stronghold been working out for you? I've found it to be a "meh" land whenever I draw it because most of the time your creatures are gonna be sent plowing anyways. Personally, I'd replace the stronghold with a 3rd sea.

[Nidd]

@Nidd

I really like your list because it cuts the white and plays the 4 basics. I honestly dont understand why people get so greedy with their manabases then cry about losing to wasteland. There are so many times I've cringed watching players unnecessarily fetch a dual only to get it wasted a turn later and be manascrewed. This applies to many decks, but control decks need their mana the most.

How has the V.Stronghold been working out for you? I've found it to be a "meh" land whenever I draw it because most of the time your creatures are gonna be sent plowing anyways. Personally, I'd replace the stronghold with a 3rd sea.
Good point about Stronghold, I also felt underperforming in every single game. I dunno whether it will become the 3rd U Sea or another utility land, a Wasteland might be nice to compliment LftL. Tabernacle is the biggest enemy of squadrons of Thopters.
Also, Manadenial + active CounterTop puts the opponent in a world of hurt, same goes for Wastelock + Jace sending their lands to the bottom.

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

Good point about Stronghold, I also felt underperforming in every single game. I dunno whether it will become the 3rd U Sea or another utility land, a Wasteland might be nice to compliment LftL. Tabernacle is the biggest enemy of squadrons of Thopters.
Also, Manadenial + active CounterTop puts the opponent in a world of hurt, same goes for Wastelock + Jace sending their lands to the bottom.

It might be too mana-intensive, but Dust Bowl seems to me like it might work better than Wasteland in this deck. At least, it gives you multiple uses out of it, even before you get LftL online. Or maybe it's just my unnatural craving to see someone pack Dust Bowl again. Lol

EDIT: Also, I like your list. What's your sideboard look like? (It seems to me like you probably need some sort of black-creature-hate in there, since you're forgoing the StP.)

[sa17dk]

Dust Bowl is just terrible. You tie up your resources by spending 3 mana every turn, when you could instead just play a crucible once and do it for free.

[Nidd]

It might be too mana-intensive, but Dust Bowl seems to me like it might work better than Wasteland in this deck. At least, it gives you multiple uses out of it, even before you get LftL online. Or maybe it's just my unnatural craving to see someone pack Dust Bowl again. Lol

EDIT: Also, I like your list. What's your sideboard look like? (It seems to me like you probably need some sort of black-creature-hate in there, since you're forgoing the StP.)
Puh, the recurring usage of Dust Bowl wihtout having to Loam every turn looks nice, but I guess Wasteland is just fine. You really want to do stuff with your mana.

My SB was terrible. I played some Extirpates, some Leylines of the Void, the 4th Firespout and Innocent Blood, I think. I totally mispredicted the meta :(
Also, being able to handle Black creatures isn't a necessity in my eyes. Aside from Pikula (which becomes rarer and rarer) and Team America (which I know of only 1 person who ever played this deck around here), there aren't really many Black creatures which don't die to Firespout/need to be handled. I guess I've seen more Earwig Squads around here than Tombstalkers (and Earwig needs to be countered, anyways).

[deadlock]

Are there still people who work in this deck? It looks quite solid with the addition of Mental Misstep.
Putting Jace and maybe even Knight of the Reliquary into the picture I have troubles to build a modern list.
Just curious about this deck, as it fully abuses Counter Top with well spreaded mana curve. Also Deed is a powerhouse and one of the best reasons to play Bug Landstill in my opinion.

Edit: Maybe something which goes into the following direction
// Lands
2 [NPH] Island (1)
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
4 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
3 [B] Underground Sea
3 [B] Tropical Island
1 [FUT] Horizon Canopy
3 [B] Tundra
1 [LRW] Plains (3)
1 [SH] Volrath's Stronghold

// Creatures
1 [FD] Etched Oracle
1 [MBS] Thrun, the Last Troll
1 [CFX] Knight of the Reliquary
1 [FD] Eternal Witness

// Spells
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [V09] Sensei's Divining Top
1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
4 [CST] Brainstorm
3 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 [CS] Counterbalance
3 [TE] Intuition
3 [AP] Pernicious Deed
4 [IA] Swords to Plowshares
4 [NPH] Mental Misstep
1 [RAV] Life from the Loam

Remarks:
- Tarmogoyf isnt the super creature he was when the deck first appeared. So I removed him and tried to add strong creatures for the current metagame. Thrun looks like a good win-con for a more controllish deck, as he is hard to remove and can chump-block all day. Knight is another tutor for our legendary lands, but he might require some tweaks in the manabase to abuse him fully. Witness and Oracle are both from the orginal build carried over.
- Mental and Jace both needed to fitted in as mentioned, so I did cut some spells.
- Orginally I had a single Punishing Fire and Groove in here as it is very easy to set up with Intuition, but running 5 colours looks a bit greedy in the end.

[oRen]

nice. i also thought about necroing the thread! :tongue:
as i am short of possibilities to test in bigger tournaments i am curious about someone who is actually still playing the deck in a diverse metagame.

i also found this very interesting thread called "aggro itf" (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?13473-Deck-Aggro-ITF-aka-Intuion-Loam-MoxD-Aggro-Control&highlight=ITF) and thought the deck might see a second sunrise with jace and mental misstep.

[egosum]

ITF met one big problem: BUG Landstill is strictly better in the current metagame.

The main difference between one and the other are (in favor of ITF):

-Access to coutnerbalance
-Goyf as an aggro-defensor

The first is not that relevant in a metagame full of Miisteps, Jace, Green Zenith, Natural Order, ... The second, well you have cut the goyfs, so ... And packing 4 "random" creatures is a lot worse than pack a full set of factories (which can be recurred with Loam and fetched with a single intuition).

I' m afraidsomehting like this could answer to the question why it is no longer played.

Greetings,

Iñaki.-

[deadlock]

Stating 'strictly better' is a dangerous statement in my opinion.
While BUG has its merits, there also some points which MAY speak for ITF:
- Access to stronger spot removal in form of STP and possibly Path, as Itf doesnt run Mishras / Waste, it can support the 4 colours more easily than bug can.
- Possibly faster win-cons, which result in less uninentional draws.
- CB / Top isnt obsolete imo, but if you still think it is, you can go down to something like 1 SDT and no CB and just play Spell Snares / CS instead.
- My list was a first draft and I dont think one- offs in a Intuition deck are random.

My main point is not that Itf might be better, but that Intuition control should be explored - see the CAB JaceTm thread for reference. This might be the better shell for Intuition.

[egosum]

I apologize if the post sound rude, I didnt' meant to. What I meant is, as I said, CB Top is not THAT relevant, not osoloete. I said strctly better and added in the CURRENT METAGAME, I 'm afraid this clarifies (followed by the explanation) the statement, Ididn't said one is better and the otehr is worse overall. I know they are not random, this is why I used "", with my random I meant chosen for a purppose but as they are 1 off you are not likeley to have them in time (sure you can intuition into Volrath + Loam + Creature, then play loam, then the sronghold and get the creature. This is just to costy). Plus StP, although is the strognest removal, with all the MM madness out there, maybe some 2CC spot removal can be better to be played along with the 1 CC removal, so playing StP is not as strong as it was before NPH was printed.

Greetings,

Iñaki.-