Kiki rulings

[Mr Wiggl3s]

Someone told me that if you create a token with kiki on the opposing turn, the token stays in play until the end of your turn, is that true?

[Sanguine Voyeur]

If you do it at the end of their turn, you get to keep it until the end of your turn. Or, more accurately, you get to keep it until the next 'end of turn.'

[Pinder]

To be more specific, Kiki-Jiki says that you have to sac the token 'at end of turn'. 'At end of turn' effects trigger at the beginning of the End of Turn Step (the first step in the End phase), and players do get priority during this step. So, if you wait until after the End of Turn step starts on your opponent's turn, and then make a Kiki-Jiki copy then, the 'at end of turn' clause won't trigger until the beginning of the next End of Turn step, i.e., your EoT step.

edit - A bit of trivia: This trick was most widely abused by the deck 'White Lightning' back in the day. Before Wizards eratta'd it, Waylay used to work the same way Kiki-Jiki did, so players would use it during their opponent's EoT step to make 3 2/2s, which would then stick around and be able to swing on their turn. Because of this the EoT step is sometimes referred to as 'the Waylay phase' when doing tricks like this.

[Roman Candle]

I'd hate to sound n00bish, but I never could figure out whether this works with manlands or not... help?

[Sanguine Voyeur]

No, man lands say 'until end of turn.' If it said 'x at end of turn' it could carry over.

[Jaiminho]

"Until the end of turn" is not the same as "At the end of turn".

The latter says that it's a triggered ability that goes on the stack at the beggining of the End of Turn step.

The former says that it's an effect that lasts until the end of the turn, which is after the End of Turn step.

[Roman Candle]

Reading is serious t3ch, I suppose.

[Pinder]

Reading is serious t3ch, I suppose.

Don't sweat it, a lot of people get them confused.

What I'm suddenly wondering is, since Kiki-Jiki gives the token haste, why would you ever need to make it during your opps end step? To get rid of summoning sickness is the only reason I can see for making a token then, and Kiki-Jiki already takes care of that. It's probably much more relevant to make one during your own end of turn step, so it sticks around for blocking on your opponent's turn.

Or am I missing something?

[freakish777]

Don't sweat it, a lot of people get them confused.

What I'm suddenly wondering is, since Kiki-Jiki gives the token haste, why would you ever need to make it during your opps end step? To get rid of summoning sickness is the only reason I can see for making a token then, and Kiki-Jiki already takes care of that. It's probably much more relevant to make one during your own end of turn step, so it sticks around for blocking on your opponent's turn.

Or am I missing something?


Yes. Vintage Food Chain decks used to run Kiki-Jiki (and even some Vial Goblin decks way back). Since he has haste, you could activate him that turn, but if you dropped him in off of a Goblin Lackey trigger, it wouldn't do you a whole lot of good to activate him immediately.

Now, if you activated Kiki in your opponent's end step to make another Lackey, and then again in your turn, you could swing with 3 goblin Lackey's on turn 3...

This won some people some games. And then everyone came to senses and realized that Kiki-Jiki was win more, and that Gang-Banger actually won from losing positions.

[Sanguine Voyeur]

Or am I missing something?This way you can have two of the targets out. That can be relevant in the case of blockers and Laquatus's Champion.

EDIT: My answer's cooler.

[Mr Wiggl3s]

Im mainly using him for simic sky swallower or bogardan hellkites

[Pinder]

Now, if you activated Kiki in your opponent's end step to make another Lackey, and then again in your turn, you could swing with 3 goblin Lackey's on turn 3...


Ah. This makes a lot of sense. Thanks.

[H8ER8ER]

Im mainly using him for simic sky swallower or bogardan hellkites

Simic Sky Swallower can't be the target of spells or abilities.

[Apex]

It could also be used in such a way if the creature you copied had a tap ability. You could copy the creature at your opponent's EOT, since it had haste, activate the tap ability, and then it untaps for your turn so you can activate it again.

I won a Kamigawa draft once when I copied Frostwielder over and over again with Kiki-Jiki at EOT to do 2 to my opponent. I don't know if this has any constructed application though.