Mythic Rares

[Mayk0l]

I hope this hasn't been posted already, if it has, please delete this.

Wizards has announced that starting with Shards of Alara, 'Mythic Rares' will be introduced, which are distributed like mythic rare : rare = 1:8.
While they explain their reasoning behind this by saying that they need to stay 'competitive' in the 'TCG Gaming Industry', to me it seems like just another way to make T2, Legacy and even Vintage staples even more expensive. And whilst people say 'but Wizards don't make any money on the secondary market', that's true, but booster-sales still go through the roof ('as with Future Sight boosters for Goyfs). Which plays nicely into their put-one-basic-land-in-a-booster nonsense.
Wow imagine a must-have like Goyf would have been a Mythic Rare. That'd suck.

Mweh, to me it all sounds a bit fishy.

So what about it?
Cool new idea that makes collecting more challenging?
Lame way to have to spend more money?

Source:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgcom/daily/20080602
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgcom/daily/mr334

[KrzyMoose]

I posted this in the B/R Update thread:


I'm more concerned about the whole "Mythic Rare" thing. I mean, really, Wizards? We're really jumping that shark?

Yeh. This is no good.

[Mental]

I'm already sooo stretched for cash. This is going to kill me.

[Dont_Stop_Believin]

Mythic Rares and a basic land in each booster? Why is the most successful card game taking ideas from Yu-Gi-Oh and Pokemon, 2 lesser card games? Im afraid this is the beginning of the end, as foreshadowed by the new card face, cut of a PT, "grassroots" programs, and the recent screwing up of the B&R list.

[Ebinsugewa]

Seems intriguing, and Hasbro/Wizards has to do what they have to do. This as a Legacy player is largely of no consequence to me, but it falls right in step with a downward trend I've noticed in how unique and interesting I have found Magic in roughly the last year or two.

[Mayk0l]

Mythic Rares and a basic land in each booster? Why is the most successful card game taking ideas from Yu-Gi-Oh and Pokemon, 2 lesser card games? Im afraid this is the beginning of the end, as foreshadowed by the new card face, cut of a PT, "grassroots" programs, and the recent screwing up of the B&R list.


And that from someone whose forum name is 'Don't Stop Believing', hah!
Anyway, I agree with Mental. I wouldn't want to have to cough up 600 bucks for a playset of Goyf-like cards.
For us it's 'ok' in that not many new cards are embraced by Tier 1-2 Legacy Decks, but for Standard this is going to be a really expensive joke.
Although, I can't stop thinking (50 bucks Thoughtseize anyone?)

[Jak]

If they make this Mythic Rare be something like another Goyf, screw Wizards. They seem to be making a lot of changes that could seriously fuck things up.

[Eldariel]

Is it April 1st? Maybe they mistook the month or something. No, but seriously, WTF? The last thing we need are some even-harder-to-acquire cards. Oh well, whatever, I'll just be playing solely on MWS 'cause I have no intention of paying for this stuff any time soon. With some luck though, those cards will be mostly crappy cards only fit for T2. I'd hope so anyways, 'cause then I could ignore them.

Maybe Wizards is trying to make duals and FoW look cheap so more people would be interested in eternal formats as T2 becomes unaffordable?

[Mental]

Is it April 1st? Maybe they mistook the month or something. No, but seriously, WTF? The last thing we need are some even-harder-to-acquire cards. Oh well, whatever, I'll just be playing solely on MWS 'cause I have no intention of paying for this stuff any time soon. With some luck though, those cards will be mostly crappy cards only fit for T2. I'd hope so anyways, 'cause then I could ignore them.

Maybe Wizards is trying to make duals and FoW look cheap so more people would be interested in eternal formats as T2 becomes unaffordable?
Hopefully they mean only ultra Timmy cards are going to be Mythic. They did seem to say that in their article, though, a cycle of multicolored plansewalkers at 4 mana could definitely have potential in Legacy, given the right abilities.

[Mr.C]

If they make this Mythic Rare be something like another Goyf, screw Wizards. They seem to be making a lot of changes that could seriously fuck things up.

Same thing i thought here. I will be waiting to see how these mythical rares will fare in the market, and, if it's something like the WoW/YuGiOh ones, it's quitting time... Which will be sad, considering how long I supported the game.

Ah well.

[vanele]

Guys, think about this logically.
New players will totally be willing to spend the money on the now even harder to come by chase "Mythic" rares. I mean who cares if the tournement player base suffers. Next year, maybe if they cut the protour entirely they can afford to make magic packs with 3 basic lands instead of one. I like where this grass roots program is going! :D

[Nightmare]

You know what I hate the most about B&R day?

You guys.

Is it really necessary to cry "THE SKY IS FALLING! THE GAME IS DYING!" every three months? Come on, already. You won't quit, and if you do, good riddance.

[Mental]

You know what I hate the most about B&R day?

You guys.

Is it really necessary to cry "THE SKY IS FALLING! THE GAME IS DYING!" every three months? Come on, already. You won't quit, and if you do, good riddance.
I'm not saying it'd dying. I'm saying that I don't have a job. It's hard enough to pick up 4 Goyfs without a job, and another scenario in which that's necessary would suck. I don't know if it'll happen, and I don't even think it will be bad for the game, but it will be bad for ME.

[raharu]

You know what I hate the most about B&R day?

You guys.

Is it really necessary to cry "THE SKY IS FALLING! THE GAME IS DYING!" every three months? Come on, already. You won't quit, and if you do, good riddance.
You have stupid amounts of money. Most don't.

EDIT: crosspost ftw:Go look up fucking Judgement Dragon. No, go look up Test Tiger. It's $30 for a card that only goes in A SINGLE DECK!!! But it's Ultra rare or some shit like that, so yep, fucking $30.

[C.P.]

All we need now is Blue-Eyes-White-Goyf that will cost us 400$/Playset.

[Di]

Or did anyone come to think that maybe it's a means to attract Yu-Gi-Oh players over to Magic? It's a lot easier to move over to another card game when there are attractive aspects, such as the "Mythic Rare" to translate too. Just a theory, but I think something like this is more on using the competition's ideas to kill the competition, not using the competition's ideas because they're slipping.

[raharu]

Or did anyone come to think that maybe it's a means to attract Yu-Gi-Oh players over to Magic? It's a lot easier to move over to another card game when there are attractive aspects, such as the "Mythic Rare" to translate too. Just a theory, but I think something like this is more on using the competition's ideas to kill the competition, not using the competition's ideas because they're slipping.
No, the competitive Yugioh players fucking hate the secret rare system too. More than poor people like me hate $55 Tarmos.

[Elficidium]

I'm usually not one for screaming profanities over what wizards has done, but this does make me question if I want to keep investing in the game. Honestly, they seem to be focusing on the wrong things. The main reason why i keep seeing new people get into magic is that it has a decent Tournament structure and competitive play associated with it. The fact that wizards now chooses to focus more and more on beginning players just makes me sad. Especially if that means making Boosters strictly worse. Where I live, there is no shortage of basic land. Ask anyone here and they'll give you a pile free of charge. I Sincerely hope this "Mythic Rare" thing will blow over and it won't affect prices to much.

But I'm still pretty damn disgusted.

[raharu]

Me too...

[Di]

No, the competitive Yugioh players fucking hate the secret rare system too. More than poor people like me hate $55 Tarmos.

I wouldn't know.


It was speculation, really. Even if I'm right, remember, this is Wizards. Not exactly the brightest group of people.

[GiantGrowth]

Wizards cares nothing about the tournament player. or any player for that matter. all they want is money. Beginners wont know what they are missing, and will be more than willing to beg their parents for money to buy 5 boxes of shards of allara to complete thier "mythic rare set"

[raharu]

I wouldn't know.


It was speculation, really. Even if I'm right, remember, this is Wizards. Not exactly the brightest group of people.
Otay, imagine this. You like survival, right? Imagine that your playset of Survival of the Fittest cost more than your playset of Tarmogoyf cost now, even though only one fairly under-represented deck in the format uses it. Fucking bullshit, right? Imagine if blue revised duals were 300 a pop. Again, that's what the Mythic Rare system harkens.

[TorpidNinja]

I wouldn't know.


It was speculation, really. Even if I'm right, remember, this is Wizards. Not exactly the brightest group of people.

Is this based upon a personal interaction with Wizards? Is there something that leads you to believe they aren't motivated by their bottom line?

[Mayk0l]

Or did anyone come to think that maybe it's a means to attract Yu-Gi-Oh players over to Magic? It's a lot easier to move over to another card game when there are attractive aspects, such as the "Mythic Rare" to translate too. Just a theory, but I think something like this is more on using the competition's ideas to kill the competition, not using the competition's ideas because they're slipping.


I think Di has a very good point. But I wondered, do you really think they will only make the Yugioo(don't even know how to spell it)-ish cards Mythic Rare (to attract those kind of 8 year old players)?
It's so easy for them to make some chase-mythic-rares.

[raharu]

Is this based upon a person interaction with Wizards? Is there something that leads you to believe they aren't motivated by their bottom line?
Seriously? One word. Flash. You should understand with just that.

[Getsickanddie]

You know what I hate the most about B&R day?

You guys.

Is it really necessary to cry "THE SKY IS FALLING! THE GAME IS DYING!" every three months? Come on, already. You won't quit, and if you do, good riddance.

Well I think there is some cause to be concerned. Wizards seems to be contradicting themselves with these changes. They are trying to reduce barrier to entry by printing fewer cards. Okay, I can get down with that, but at the same time they are announcing this new Mythic crap. The secondary market price for playable type 2 mythic cards is going to be outrageous, and god help us if any of the Mythic cards are staples in multiple formats. Will I quit the game? Probably not. But I'll never even attempt to play non-eternal constructed formats again.

[rleader]

Yeah, as long as all mythic cards are five mana and up, I could care less. Make a Super Akroma that can't be reanimated (Colossus type ability), go nuts with it.

A four mana planeswalker seems dangerous as a precedent though. If it turns out to be the next garruk only twice as rare, good grief.

[Artowis]

To be fair, if you crunch some of the math with the smaller card prints, you basically will end up with the equivalent to time-shifted rarity cards. Which wasn't exactly a big deal.

Also for everyone bringing up Goyf, just stop. There was nothing price-wise like Goyf for years upon years. Yes if something that completely fucking ridiculous in this new slot, everyone is fucked. But then again you could say that about Goyf as it stands right now, so shrug.

I really have major doubts about the change, but there is a reason to believe this was actually done to help marketing and it won't affect the secondary market that much at all.

[Mental]

To be fair, if you crunch some of the math with the smaller card prints, you basically will end up with the equivalent to time-shifted rarity cards. Which wasn't exactly a big deal.

Also for everyone bringing up Goyf, just stop. There was nothing price-wise like Goyf for years upon years. Yes if something that completely fucking ridiculous in this new slot, everyone is fucked. But then again you could say that about Goyf as it stands right now, so shrug.

I really have major doubts about the change, but there is a reason to believe this was actually done to help marketing and it won't affect the secondary market that much at all.

Look, bringing up goyf isn't ridiculous, because this new rarity type creates a much higher chance for a new card, that may be much worse than goyf, being worth just as much as goyf. The card doesn't have to be a major fuckup to equal goyf in cost if it's a mythic rare.

[Artowis]

Look, bringing up goyf isn't ridiculous, because this new rarity type creates a much higher chance for a new card, that may be much worse than goyf, being worth just as much as goyf. The card doesn't have to be a major fuckup to equal goyf in cost if it's a mythic rare.

So you really think Garruk would be up to 50 dollars if the number of it available was cut in half? Seriously?

[Apex]

If the Mythic Rares are just cool cards with alot of casual appeal but almost no tournament presence, then it would be the best of both worlds no? Competitive players won't care about them other than as trade fodders, while more casual players would love to rip open one of these bad boys (there are reasons why Doubling Season still commands a decent price). This boosts booster sales and keep competitive players happy since it doesn't really affect them.

Though I doubt WotC's testing is so rigorous that they can guarantee the above scenario with Mythic Rares. If just one slips through, it's going to be hell to get ahold of a playset of those tournament quality Mythic Rares.

[Mental]

So you really think Garruk would be up to 50 dollars if the number of it available was cut in half? Seriously?
Isn't it logical that it would be worth nearly twice as much?

[Jak]

To be fair, if you crunch some of the math with the smaller card prints, you basically will end up with the equivalent to time-shifted rarity cards. Which wasn't exactly a big deal.

Also for everyone bringing up Goyf, just stop. There was nothing price-wise like Goyf for years upon years. Yes if something that completely fucking ridiculous in this new slot, everyone is fucked. But then again you could say that about Goyf as it stands right now, so shrug.

I really have major doubts about the change, but there is a reason to believe this was actually done to help marketing and it won't affect the secondary market that much at all.

The only reason to make Mythic Rare is for cards that are actually good and people will want. The card will be good. The card will be hard to acquire. This means the card will be expensive.

[Getsickanddie]

To be fair, if you crunch some of the math with the smaller card prints, you basically will end up with the equivalent to time-shifted rarity cards. Which wasn't exactly a big deal.

You're ignoring the fact that all the time-shifted cards had been printed previously.

[Bryant Cook]

Great, these mythic rares better be shit. If they're playable cards like thoughtsieze or 'Goyf, playsets will be through the roof. Aren't they already banning cards because they're too expensive?

[CynicalSquirrel]

This probably sucks for competitive players, but I still think it's a good and profitable move for Wizards. Let's be honest, when we were just starting off mtg and buying tons of packs, who among us would not have completely crapped our pants at the idea of a "mythic rare"? Yeah it's stupid, it's corny, it's Yugioh-esque, but it's still pretty damn cool for a new player to crack a mythic rare and show his newbie pals.

Competitive players tend to resist any kind of change, but I think it's necessary when the game has been around as long as it has. You just have to get used to them as they come.

And furthermore, I don't understand this hatred of Wizards for gearing towards new players. New players are what keeps the game functioning, and it would certainly die without them. They should be Wizards' top priority to keep this game going, so it only makes sense to do something like this to try to get them interested.

[Pinder]

You know what I hate the most about B&R day?

You guys.

Is it really necessary to cry "THE SKY IS FALLING! THE GAME IS DYING!" every three months? Come on, already. You won't quit, and if you do, good riddance.

While it's true that initial reactions are hardly calm or indicative, you can't honestly be supporting this, right? I mean, it seems like Wizards is taking every step they can to alienate competitive Magic players in favor of inducting a new wave of twelve-year olds running around with daddy's money. I understand that Wizards has to look after its bottom line, but you'd think they would try and find a way to do it without alienating the people who have been supporting the game since its inception 15 years ago.

It just seems like Wizards is acting with less and less integrity and respect to the players it already has. That's what's really upsetting, not just that any playable Mythic will need a payment plan.

edit - And am I the only one who thought Rosewater's article was essentially 'We know you're not going to quit, so we can afford to take a dump on your plate to attract new players. Here's a preview so it's all better.'?

[Artowis]

shrug, i said I have doubts. i'm just pointing out the usual bitching about something that may or may not be horrible. wah wah

Personally I'm still in shock they world of ruined Vintage for me. I mean they don't even pretend to care about the format, but they still fuck with it. That's cold.

Stop pretending they care about you though. I mean if they are willing to let MODO just fuck off and die when they were making crazy money off of that for far less production costs... well that should tell you something.

[Apex]

Now that I thought about it a little bit more, I can kind of understand the mythic rare move.

Statistically speaking, mythic rares are about as rare as 10th edition rares. You have 1 in 120 chance of pulling a specific mythic rare in Shards of Alara, and you had a 1 in 120 chance of pulling a specific rare card in 10th edition (this is due to the size of the set). So it's not like we haven't seen it before. Though 10th edition are all reprints, so that changes things a bit when you hit the monetary aspect of things.

Still, this means that the new "rares" are now easier to acquire. For example, if they decided to print some dual lands in Shards of Alara, and it would be printed as rares and not mythic rares (Rosewater did mention how they will not print cards like Mutavault, Char, etc as mythic rares, since they are too utility in nature to be mythics), then it would be easier to get ahold of, since they are about half as rare as mythics (so 1 in 60). So cards like Thoughtseize and Bitterblossom would all be printed as rares under this guide, while Garruk and Jitte would be mythics. This doesn't seem that bad, considering the percentage of utility cards that see tournament play far outweighs the percentage of legends and "cool" stuffs. Also, "money uncommons" (I'm looking at you Eternal Witness) should also be cheaper now, due to higher supply.

So while it's an unprecendented move, it isn't the Armageddon of the secondary market. In fact, I would say maybe there is a gleam of silver lining here, since some cards would be alot cheaper, due to their frequency of appearance.

[mercenarybdu]

You have to keep in mind that the US is facing tough times and with it comes tough decisions to stay alive like these. They did after all learn a few things after so many years of not looking out for the little guy.

It's the little guy who buys the stuff that aren't from the secondary market. If it weren't for them there be nearly no player base left at all. Rosewater is one of the key guys who engineered the company to where it is right now. Without him, we wouldn't be where we are right now.

Less cards means less to memorize and more people to join the fury. More cards may mean more options but at the same time means more memorization of what they do and how they act.

Wizards may not be the brightest of people, but they know what they are doing that is up in the air before it hits the ground.

[Nydaeli]

Isn't this game fucking expensive enough as it is?

Magic is already on an extreme end of the size-of-player-base vs. money-invested-per-player continuum, and the mythic rarity could potentially tip this balance to unacceptable levels.

On another note, I think lowering set sizes can only be a good thing. A lot of recent sets have had a high number of throwaway cards, and putting a higher fraction of development time into each card should reduce this number significantly.

[Sanguine Voyeur]

It's not as bad as it seems, I think. I tried doing some math to prove this, but I can't do probability and ended up with a 134% chance of getting a rare in a pack.

[rleader]

It's the little guy who buys the stuff that aren't from the secondary market.

There's little guys left in magic?

I started playing again at the beginning of timespiral block and went to my first std friday night magic just to give it a go with a crappy deck worth less than $20. Just about every deck I faced was played at Worlds and many of them weren't using a single basic land. I had experience and bloodmoon on my side, but I can't imagine a game less friendly to people just starting out. I'm not sure there's too many casual FNMs left.

My local cardshop doesn't have play space (mostly deals in comics), but some of the kids I've talked to in there just "collect" magic cards, they don't play them. :cry: Maybe mythic cards will appeal to them, but then they're not required to have more than one of any give card, so I'm not sure they have an incentive to really buy buy buy.

[Nihil Credo]

I guess I'll keep sticking to Limited and Legacy.

Anyway, it's a bad idea, but not apocalyptic. For one, the ~16% reduction in printed cards (and therefore in tournament rares) helps offset the extra costs from mythics; for another, MaRo says:


Generally speaking we expect that to mean cards like Planeswalkers, most legends, and epic-feeling creatures and spells. They will not just be a list of each set's most powerful tournament-level cards.

We've also decided that there are certain things we specifically do not want to be mythic rares. The largest category is utility cards, what I'll define as cards that fill a universal function. Some examples of this category would be cycles of dual lands and cards like Mutavault (javascript:autoCardWindow('Mutavault')) or Char. That also addresses a long-standing issue that some players have had with certain rares like dual lands. Because we're making fewer cards per set, in the new world individual rares will be easier to acquire because each rare in a large set now appears 25% more often.

so future T2/Block formats will at least be playable without shelling for the glitzy stuff - even though I am betting my left nut that at least some of the mythic cards will be chase rares.


Summarising: As a Legacy player, there's a decent chance I'll be unaffected by this. As a Limited player, I'm happy about the change. Name pros will keep borrowing cards, so they won't care much. T2/Block players will probably get screwed at some time or another, but they're already throwing so much money on the game I have zero sympathy for them.



Aside: what was wrong with simply "Mythic"? It will be called that in a few months anyway - why did they have to use the potentially confusing? R&D may be less bright than their PhD collection would suggest, but the marketing department doesn't shine either.

[Raider Bob]

Who cares: A shitty Mythic Rare will be $.99 on ebay and a Decent Mythic rare wont be anymore than any other rare on ebay. A bomb Mythic rare like Goyf would probably be a $100 rare, I wonder if they will reprint Goyf as a Mythic rare now..and keep it in standard.

[Shabbaman]

I guess I'll keep sticking to Limited and Legacy.

Anyway, it's a bad idea, but not apocalyptic. For one, the ~16% reduction in printed cards (and therefore in tournament rares) helps offset the extra costs from mythics; for another, MaRo says:



so future T2/Block formats will at least be playable without shelling for the glitzy stuff - even though I am betting my left nut that at least some of the mythic cards will be chase rares.


Summarising: As a Legacy player, there's a decent chance I'll be unaffected by this. As a Limited player, I'm happy about the change. Name pros will keep borrowing cards, so they won't care much. T2/Block players will probably get screwed at some time or another, but they're already throwing so much money on the game I have zero sympathy for them.


My thoughts exactly. However, keep in mind that it's mainly T2 and limited players that keep the game going: those are the people that buy packs. Them, and the shops that pop boxes sinlges. It's not the legacy or vintage crowd that keep magic going.

I hardly buy cards (though I did buy 4 tarmogoyfs for 2,50 euro's each when no one wanted them) because I already have a lot of cards. With playsets of duals and fetches I couldn't care less about another cycle of watered down duals. Even if I have to shell out the occasional 100 bucks for a playset of expensive cards, I feel I'm better off than playing standard.

[kicks_422]

Wow. Yu-Gi-Oh. Maybe they'd have janky names too.

Seriously, I wonder why they even bothered with it.

[Nightmare]

While it's true that initial reactions are hardly calm or indicative, you can't honestly be supporting this, right? I mean, it seems like Wizards is taking every step they can to alienate competitive Magic players in favor of inducting a new wave of twelve-year olds running around with daddy's money. I understand that Wizards has to look after its bottom line, but you'd think they would try and find a way to do it without alienating the people who have been supporting the game since its inception 15 years ago.I'm not saying I support it, persay. I'm saying that I've seen literally every major change to the game since its inception, and at every single step of the way, from sixth edition rules changes, to the rarity coloration, to Combo Winter, to the new card face, to Ravager Affinity, to blahblahblah, people have been threatening to quit the game; and yet here we are, with the game stronger than it has ever been before.


And am I the only one who thought Rosewater's article was essentially 'We know you're not going to quit, so we can afford to take a dump on your plate to attract new players. Here's a preview so it's all better.'?I'd say that if they're basing their theory on history, which I have to assume they are, then they're 100% on the money. It's worked so far, hasn't it? I don't see people jumping ship to play Yu-Gi-Oh anytime soon.

Statistically, there is a higher percentage of rares in the sets than there were before. Additionally, there will be more foil rares per pack than there have been in the past. There will be one less common, which will be great for new players, and irrelevant for drafters (contrary to that chicken little theory, as well). The staple type 2 cards (like the manabase) is not moving up in rarity, which is excellent for people who don't have access to a large bankroll for their rotating cards, or a large pool to borrow from.

As for the issue of pricetags on playable mythics, well, there is still such a thing as trading. Speculation goes a long way, too. I know I'm not the only person out there who has a set of Goyfs that they got on the cheap before the price exploded. It's really not that hard to speculate on this stuff, and it's high reward with pretty low risk.

[Versus]

All we need now is Blue-Eyes-White-Goyf that will cost us 400$/Playset.

Hilarious!

It seems like normal "chase" rares are getting more and more expensive on their own. There was a time when $10-15 was the highest a card would sell for baring the occasional Cursed Scroll. Ever since Goyf it seems like things are changing. Garruk, Mutavaults, and Bitterblossom to name a few. Fucking Bitterblossom is a $35 now! I never would have guessed that? Anyway, if a card similar in power to those mentioned above sees print as a Mythic Rare, I can totally see those prices doubling or even tripling.

edit: Nevermind, I just read Nihil's post above.

I agree about the T2 guy getting the shortest end of the stick. Some of us play Standard simply because going 1 mile down the street to play is more feasable than driving 4-6 hours once every 2 months. Standard is still Magic. It's better than nothing. On the flip side of that I've been playing A Doran Rock deck since the first week LOR was legal. I haven't changed a single card other than including 2 Boskks, 1 Bastion, and a Reflecting Pool I already owned from my Tempest days. It's the people that feel they need a new deck every week that end up suffering most. Fuck them anyway.

[Nihil Credo]

The new "Mythic Rares" are going to be cards that seem more awesome than others like legendary cards, Plainswalkers, and cards that do big things to the game but cost a lot (Akroma's Vengence?). They probably won't see much play in tournaments and are just binder fodder. Something pretty for newer players to collect. Who doesn't enjoy ripping open a booster pack with a card that has an orange rarity symbol?

You're taking it way too far. MaRo only said that generic staples like dual lands or utility cards (he mentioned Mutavault and Char) won't be mythics, and that not all the best tournament cards will be mythic. That's not the same thing as saying that mythics won't be tournament rares.

In fact, there are two scenarios right now: either all future Planeswalkers will suck, or at least one mythic will become a chase rare a la Garruk. I know which one I'm betting on.


(Oh, and even if you're willing to stretch it, MaRo's promises are worth jack shit anyway. See "no more random discard" and "bringing blue down a notch in new sets".)

[mujadaddy]

...this does make me question if I want to keep investing in the game...Are you under the impression that you're "investing" in Magic, from a collectables & reselling standpoint?

I'll tell you what I told people during the "Issue #0, Cover #3" era of comics, and what I told people about Magic before I got into it: This is not a business, and you'll regret it if you begin to collect something for its financial value instead of how happy it makes you.

...

Ontopic, WotC likes money. Boosters=money. "Chase rarez"=boosters.

It's simple enough. Buy your boosters, buy your chase rarez, or gtfo.

Whining on the Source != tech.

[freakish777]

After my initial shock and disgust and some time to think about it, there could actually be a lot of good that could come out of this.

A) Wizards could use the Mythic Rare slot to reprint cards that are fair but still expensive without having collectors bitch about the price completely nose-diving after the card rotates out of Standard (Sea Drake, Grim Tutor, Cruel Bargain, Goyf, Thunder Dragon, etc could all see reprint as Mythic Rares)

B) Chances are good that Legendary characters in the "story line" could end up as Mythic Rares. What if Teferi had been a Mythic Rare? Would that have been so terrible? What was Teferi's highest going rate on eBay? $10~15? If a Mythic Rare legenedary creature suddenly is going for $40 on eBay, that's not exactly bad, provided it doesn't go in every deck in every non-Vintage format.

C) It provides incentive for honest to goodness collectors to collect again. Anyone can put together a set of a Champions of Kamigawa... but if the 5 Legendary Dragons had been Mythic Rares, suddenly there's a challenge? I guarentee that the Legendary Dragon Spirits from Champions would have been Mythic Rares had they implemented this then. Yeah, trying to get a playset of Kokusho would have sucked balls. Guess what doesn't see play in Legacy though?


Now, clearly while I think there's potential for this to benefit the game, there's obviously a lot of room for Wizards to fuck this up, but I won't comment on what I think the chances of that happening are. What I will do is list some potential downsides I see:

Wizards attempting to make the game more "I just play with the cards I open in packs, just like Richard Garfield envisioned!" That's a bunch of shit and we all know it.

Wizards printing mistakes in the Mythic Rare slot. I don't think we'll be seeing an new cards on the level of Tarmogoyf, Tolarian Academy, Cursed Scroll any time soon, but the fact of the matter is mistakes happen. It really would have to be a card that every deck in a particular archetype would want to play for the prices to get out of hand (Cursed Scroll went in every aggro deck, and was a $20 card 10 years ago, as a Mythic Rare, it would have been $60ish, just because it will be 8 times more rare than a normal rare, it won't be 8 times the price).

[Wallace]

You know what I hate the most about B&R day?

You guys.

Is it really necessary to cry "THE SKY IS FALLING! THE GAME IS DYING!" every three months? Come on, already. You won't quit, and if you do, good riddance.

Holy Shit, i had to just edit my post I said the same fucking thing!!! Why don't you wait and see what the mythic rares are before you cry about them. Are they all going to be uber good, are you going to need 4 of each one to play the game, survey says no!

[Illissius]

Q: Is the sky falling?
A: No.

Q: Is this nonetheless a bad idea?
A: Yes.

Q: Taken together with some of the other recent decisions by MTGHQ, does this mark a trend in a bad direction?
A: Possibly.

Q: Is Magic going to die?
A: Yes. So are you. Which comes first, I can't say.

Q: Are people going to quit?
A: Maybe.

Q: Are lots of people going to quit?
A: No.

Q: Are people who reflexively decry all the purported Chicken Littles every time something changes just as annoying as the Chicken Littles themselves?
A: Yeah.

Q: How do you really feel?
A: To be honest, I don't think the people in R&D (and probably the rest of Wizards) are really this stupid. I suspect Hasbro. MaRo is, as usual, doing his job as a "team player". (Has he ever publicly criticized, or even failed to promote, an action Wizards has taken? What are the chances that he agrees with every single one of them?)

[Nihil Credo]

Were I a mod, I'd change your name to "Illissius the Wise".

[PowrDragn]

Guys, the reality is that with a smaller set, a Mythic Rare is only going to be twice as hard to get as a normal rare due to the difference in set size. We have a really good thread started on another board that explains the math and whatnot a couple of different ways that I don't really want to get into.

Feel free to read it yourselves though, it's quite educational:

http://www.txgamers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6846

[Bryant Cook]

Not to mention, they're one in every eight packs. Not like other games where they are one in a case or every 2 cases. That means, theres four mythic rares per booster box. Remember how rare Cranial Extraction was? They printed that card very low compared to other cards in the set, it's the same thing now. It just has a name.

[b4r0n]

I think Illissius is dead on. While this isn't anywhere close to the "death of Magic", it certainly doesn't really seem like a great idea. I'm not really sold by MaRo's logic either... new players to the game are attracted to flashy, big spells, right? So, hmm, let's make them really hard to get. Also, I'm fairly confident that at least some of these mythic rares will be tournament playable, which will maintain the large price tag of being able to remain competitive in Standard. This decision doesn't really seem to benefit the players at all.

However, I do like the idea of smaller sets, and basic lands in packs doesn't bother me too much. But overall, I'm pretty disappointed with WotC... especially in conjunction with their decisions regarding Vintage.

[ParkerLewis]

Q: Is this nonetheless a bad idea?
A: Yes.

I wouldn't be that sure of it. As shown in MR'as article (you can just check up the numbers on it yourself if you don't want to believe it), it is an undisputable fact that some rares in recent sets have been far more difficult to acquire than others (there is a one-to-three ratio), as this is simply how much difference there is in the number of rares per set in the last two years. Granted, the two higher numbers were achieved in X and for TS timeshifted cards, which were exclusively reprints - but still, it's not like those cards were unfindable at all.

The new "mythic" rarity would just be as rare as that. It doesn't seem excessive at all. Plus, you have to admit that "even more rare than rare" does have some appeal. That being said, they chose to set it at the lowest rarity possible, ie the maximum of what some rares have actually been (it wouldn't make any sense to make them less rare than other rares have been), thus both gaining the benefits of a new rarity while not turning those cards into actually unfindable items which would really raise the price issue.

So i guess my points are :
-having a new rarity is not a problem in and of itself, quite the opposite in fact, it can be quite exciting.
-they set it at the most easiest rarity it could be, which is what's probably best for the player's wallet.
-same things Nightmare said. 99 % of the time, people shout and cry over what turns out to be a good and well-executed decision once the dust has settled. See : planeswalkers (added a new element to the game without breaking it), sixth edition rules (made the game actually playable), and so forth.

Of course, they might change everything they said in the future, and turn mythic rare into real-über-impossible-to-find and apply it to basic lands. But until then, let's give them at least some credit. They've been doing a great job for quite some time already.

[Sek'Kuar]

Personally, the thing I'm most upset about is the fact that they are no longer selling 60 card precon decks. and before you all start with the "OMG YOU GUYS PRECONS ARE FOR NOOBS", I play casually as well with my Fiancee and her family. Sometimes a precon is exactly what everyone likes to play, just to keep us on the same page. The new rarity doesn't bother me, because I just use what I can find in boosters. I rarely buy singles.

P.S. I still think the change sucks major ass

[b4r0n]

Plus, you have to admit that "even more rare than rare" does have some appeal.

Not at all. How can it possibly be appealing to have to track down playsets of rarer-than-rare cards? I don't understand why anyone would like this idea.

There's simply no good reason to add an additional rarity. "Industry standards?" What the hell does that mean? They want to sell more packs? This decision completely ignores the player base. Furthermore, there is overwhelmingly negative feedback coming from the players. For things like the planeswalkers, the purple reprints, and even the all the new card borders, there's been at least a bit of positive support. But not for this change. Just look at the posts in the thread in response to MaRo's article.

[Nightmare]

Personally, the thing I'm most upset about is the fact that they are no longer selling 60 card precon decks. and before you all start with the "OMG YOU GUYS PRECONS ARE FOR NOOBS", I play casually as well with my Fiancee and her family. Sometimes a precon is exactly what everyone likes to play, just to keep us on the same page. The new rarity doesn't bother me, because I just use what I can find in boosters. I rarely buy singles.

P.S. I still think the change sucks major assThey're still selling pre-cons, just in a different form.

[Finn]

Mythics are different than underprinted rares for one big reason: We all know they are underprinted from day 1. The label "Mythic Rare" in and of itself is going to inflate it's value.

No matter how you sugar-coat it, the company will be making extra money at the expense of those who want the cards. The rest of the tweaking they have done in pack slots and this and that is just dressing. This is a common practice that goes back to the beginnings of commerce designed to divert your attention from the facts. Imagine the reaction they would be getting if they did not introduce those other variables. Does anyone truly believe they are going to consciously change things to induce us to buy fewer packs?

I am not pleased about the new rarity one bit. Why should I embrace something designed to get me to spend more money on the same product? Players will not react with their wallets until Wizards makes their first mistake with mythics. I truly hope they make a bunch of very good mythic cards that are essential for competitive Standard decks in the very first year. That way players will have to leave in droves for lack of ability to compete. In short

Fuck Mythics

[xsockmonkeyx]

So, they are going to print new cards that I will never be able to afford? Dont really see much difference than the way things are now. Monkey doesnt really care.

*Goes off to hug his $7 playset of Goyfs*

[Ewokslayer]

A four mana planeswalker seems dangerous as a precedent though. If it turns out to be the next garruk only twice as rare, good grief.

Actually, based on Rosewater's stupid little chart, Garruk and a Mythic Rare from a small set will appear at the same frequency.

[mujadaddy]

Rosewater's stupid little chart
Hey, multicolored 'Walker, cool...

[Bardo]

As I think I saw earlier, this is definitely coming from their marketing department in response to some research of their customer-base. As such, I'm not really worried. We'll really need to see some of these rares before we can make any conclusions. But as most of their customers are casual, kitchen-table gamers, I'm not really alarmed. These should be niche cards that are not going to be tournament staples. I hope. And again, we'll have to see.

As for the whole, "they're doing it for the bottom line!" Well, duh. That's annoyingly obvious. Hasbro is a for-profit private business that specializes in games and entertainment. It's not like they're subsidized by the government to provide us with this hobby. If they stop making money, they're going to go out of business, and that will be the end of the game.

In the political-economic spectrum, I'm extremely left of center, but this is the reality of the marketplace and I hope it pays off for them. In short, meh.

[m03]

My thoughts exactly. However, keep in mind that it's mainly T2 and limited players that keep the game going: those are the people that buy packs. Them, and the shops that pop boxes sinlges. It's not the legacy or vintage crowd that keep magic going.

Yes, but that's a decision that WotC has made to puposefully limit themselves from getting our money. I've got disposable income, and would be perfectly happy buying booster boxes if there were something actually interesting enough to purchase. Barring full-on reprints of the first 3 expansions, I don't see this changing.

I think this is good or irrelevant news because:

1) Most cards are junk anyway. Now there's just a new rarity of junk.

2) This opens them up to being able to reprint power cards while at the same time keeping the availability low and prices high. Maybe now you can finally get your foil Japanese Workshops. Look for them in Chronicles X next year ;)

[Illissius]

As for the whole, "they're doing it for the bottom line!" Well, duh. That's annoyingly obvious. Hasbro is a for-profit private business that specializes in games and entertainment. It's not like they're subsidized by the government to provide us with this hobby. If they stop making money, they're going to go out of business, and that will be the end of the game.

Yes, that's obvious. But even from a purely bottom line perspective, you can make shortsighted decisions which gain you some money in the near term but undermine your business in the long term, and I think this is one of them. The Ferrett once wrote an article, in response to a rash of people asking for things like Wizards reprinting the Power Nine, that when the Power Nine are reprinted, he will not be happy but sad, because he will know that Magic is finally dying. To quote:


Wizards reprinting the Power Nine is it. They literally can't do anything flashier. It's something the players have been clamoring for since Revised, and if they did it people would come back to the fold from miles around. Folks who stopped playing come The Dark would hear about it, and, intrigued, return.


And they could never do it again.


This is their one shot. After this, there will be no emergency revivals; their collective wad is shot. Nothing they do would ever beat it.... And I'd like to think that Wizards is smart enough to realize this.


When you see the Power Nine reprinted, you should mourn. This means that Magic is dying, and Wizards is simply trying to scrape the last of the cash off of the bottom before they throw the barrel away.

With regards to CCGs, I think the ways you can make money from them sort of moves on a scale: you can keep the playerbase happy, nurture a healthy tournament scene, release new sets regularly, keep a fairly constant power level, and innovate at a consistent pace, for a dependable source of long-term profits, as Magic has done; or you can release ever flashier and rarer chase cards, give in to power creep, and suck your audience dry as quickly as possible before leaving an empty husk of a game behind; or you can do something in between. Now, this Mythic Rares crap is not "reprinting the Power Nine" yet, but it's definitely more in the direction of the latter strategy, and together with some other things recently -- the "changes" to organized play, arguably some power creep (Doran, Thoughtseize) -- well, I think it's cause enough for concern (not panic). (The Vintage restrictions are, I think, entirely separate, and my only complaint there (besides "fucking Ponder?") is maybe they didn't restrict enough).

[FoolofaTook]

Just as a sidenote to all of this: I went down to Target a week ago to get some stuff and decided to take a look at their CCG rack as I walked by. It's never been particularly interesting, the Magic element in it usually consisting of a few precon decks and a column or two of boosters from the latest set. All packaged in the usual cardboard blister pack enclosing the WoTC packaging.

This time I saw no MTG stuff at all. No empty racks either. Some new game called Chaos (or something similar), a ton of Yu-Gi-Oh, Pokemon and a small WoW: CCG presence but no Magic at all. To me that says that this Target just isn't selling Magic: the Gathering to kids any more. They're not interested.

I don't really know what that augurs for the future of Magic but it can't be good.

[Versus]

In the long run, people don't fucking care either way. I wish all of you collected Star Wars figures or something similar. here let me quote:


...NO WAY! With all the characters to be explored in George Lucas’s 6 films… we go with and EU figure!!!??? BOOOOOO!
I’m sure it will be amazing. I was really hoping for an Episode 3 Obi to go with Anakin. Asajj should have been your COMIC-CON Exclusive. I’m complaining, but you know I’m going to buy it!!!!

Guess who makes SW figures? Hasbro. The same people who repaint a Clone Tropper 167 times and sell it to the same asshole in multiples. They bitch, but they buy. So will Magic players.

[Lego]

If it turns out to be the next garruk only twice as rare, good grief.

According to the little chart in the article, the new "Mythic Rares" will be approximately as rare as Garruk.

[Illissius]

That's until they decide to start printing more cards or otherwise mess with number of cards in sets again, which they've been doing something like every single block these days.

[Raider Bob]

with the sets getting smaller the mythic rare issue isn't all that bad you will get 4-5 mythic rares per box 4boxes for a full set, and you will get aproxamatly 2x that in normal rares, so for every 1 mythic rare(Name card here) you will get 2 normal rares(Name normal rare here). Foil mythics should be about as ez to get as a normal foil rare is. It takes aproxamatly 60 boxes opening to get a full set of foil rares, with the distribution on foils.

[syssc9]

Less cards per set/year: I have thought this needed fixed for a long time. Big plus.

Land in boosters: Icky! NO LAND, NO LAND, NO LAND, NO LAND, NO LAND.
Ok, if ya gotta put in some land for the new kiddies, put it in as an EXTRA card, not replacing a common. "It's just a common" you say. Sure - so was Sink Hole and Maze of Ith. Don't dilute the Boosters, just add a land card if ya need to. This could have been a Win-Win for everyone, but I bet trying to add an additional card to some packs and not to others would have messed up the sorting procedures/sorting machinery and required someone to actually think about it or Work on it or Re-program it or, gulp, SPEND $$$ to make it work. Sounds like Corporate America to me.

Mythic Rares: It matters little to me. I haven't even bought any Tarmogoyfs yet and my favorite play color is Green! I will wait and see how it all falls out. I play Magic for fun, not to prove something. Fun – think about it.

[frogboy]

Remember how rare Cranial Extraction was? They printed that card very low compared to other cards in the set, it's the same thing now. It just has a name.

wait what?

[rleader]

They're still selling pre-cons, just in a different form.

Except they're 40 cards which doesn't necessarily mesh well with theme decks from the past. Yeah, you can bump them up to 60 easy enough, but I prefer not to edit theme decks as power creep inevitably comes in, and I like having a box of 50 or so sleeved decks that you can pull any two from and have a fun match.

I know it's cool to hate on theme decks as a waste of money, but for me, they're really the only true taste of the new worlds and mechanics that I get since otherwise I'm only buying a few singles every four months. So imo, the theme decks have been a great deal (at their preorder prices) for Legacy players who have a Vorthos side. I couldn't put together five similar decks each big set out of $40 worth of boosters; sure, I could get lucky on rares, but the number of marginal uncommons you'd get (things like 1 Snake Cult Initiation would be utterly useless) wouldn't help at all.

[Anusien]

Is it worth it to have more rare Planeswalkers (1.3x) to have less rare (1.5x) Mutavaults?

[Nihil Credo]

wait what?
There's a longstanding claim that some rares (usually the juicier ones) are printed less than others. AFAIK, there's never been overwhelming evidence either way.

[The Rack]

One quick question, my understanding of this whole Mythic Rare bullshit is that if there were 50 rares in a set they changedit to make 40 rares and 10 mythic. They didn't say Mythic would be printed less or more but the same. So the only thing that would fluctuate price of Mythic over Regular would be the title right? Or am I missing something?

[Watcher487]

One quick question, my understanding of this whole Mythic Rare bullshit is that if there were 50 rares in a set they changedit to make 40 rares and 10 mythic. They didn't say Mythic would be printed less or more but the same. So the only thing that would fluctuate price of Mythic over Regular would be the title right? Or am I missing something?

A Mythic Rare will be one in every 8 packs. Not one per pack.

[Illissius]

That's actually an interesting question. If you got a Mythic one every eight packs, and a Rare in the other seven, but you had, say, five Mythic cards in the set and thirty-five Rares, I think you would have the same chance of getting any one of those cards in a booster. But that's not what they're doing: if you're seven times as likely to get a Rare as a Mythic, but there's not quite four times as many Rares as Mythics, that makes the Mythics a bit over twice as rare. Which is, I suppose, not as bad as it could be. (Again, until they decide to mess around with the numbers in a later set.)

[Goaswerfraiejen]

I don't like the name. Very childish-sounding.

I'm also not impressed with replacing a common with a land. I like commons, they tend to be pretty good and consistent, and are essential. Besides, with one common less, I can tell you exactly which card will always be picked last in a draft.

[Nihil Credo]

That's actually an interesting question. If you got a Mythic one every eight packs, and a Rare in the other seven, but you had, say, five Mythic cards in the set and thirty-five Rares, I think you would have the same chance of getting any one of those cards in a booster. But that's not what they're doing: if you're seven times as likely to get a Rare as a Mythic, but there's not quite four times as many Rares as Mythics, that makes the Mythics a bit over twice as rare. Which is, I suppose, not as bad as it could be. (Again, until they decide to mess around with the numbers in a later set.)

Shards of Alara has 53 rares and 15 mythics. That works out at a (7/8)*(1/53)= 1/60.57... chance of seeing a certain rare in a booster, and a (1/8)*(1/15)= 1/120 chance of seeing a certain mythic in a booster.

"Paper" (smalls set after SoA) has 35 rares and 10 mythics, which gives a 1/40 chance for a rare and 1/80 for a mythic.

So yes, mythics are almost exactly twice as rare as rares (and exactly so for a small set). In fact, I'm betting they deliberately chose the numbers to make the ratio as close to 2:1 as possible.

[Sanguine Voyeur]

Also note that the chance of getting a particular rare from Lorwyn is ~1.25%, and the chance of a mythical big set rare is ~.833%. That's not too bad of a difference.

[zefhek]

guess im happy now that i dont like foils xD

[DalkonCledwin]

Generally speaking we expect that to mean cards like Planeswalkers, most legends, and epic-feeling creatures and spells. They will not just be a list of each set's most powerful tournament-level cards.

If these are what the Mythic Rares are going to be... I don't see how they are going to be the uber broken cards that some of you seem to think they are going to be. I mean come on, how often have Planeswalkers seen play in Legacy (aside from Garruk or Jace Barelen)? Or for that matter, how often do Legend Cards see play in Legacy (aside from Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir)? In otherwords, what I am trying to say, is that most often these "Epic-feeling cards" turn out to be not very playable in the Legacy environment.

If this has already been pointed out... well sue me :tongue:


Otay, imagine this. You like survival, right? Imagine that your playset of Survival of the Fittest cost more than your playset of Tarmogoyf cost now, even though only one fairly under-represented deck in the format uses it. Fucking bullshit, right? Imagine if blue revised duals were 300 a pop. Again, that's what the Mythic Rare system harkens.

Actually, no it doesn't, they state specifically in one of the articles that "Utility Cards" such as Mutavault, Char, and Survival of the Fittest for example will not be made into "Mythic Rares." So in otherwords, we don't have to worry about our most important spells becoming extremely rare... plus Mythic Rares are only twice as rare as ordinary rares according to the site. They just appear 1 out of 8 times less as often as ordinary rares. So they shouldn't cost 4 or 5 times as much as ordinary rares of the same nature, just twice as much.


The only reason to make Mythic Rare is for cards that are actually good and people will want. The card will be good. The card will be hard to acquire. This means the card will be expensive.

Except WotC specifically states that they are making Mythic Rares to be "Timmy Cards" not "Spike Cards"! It is that simple!

[Jaiminho]

Yeah, but if you take all this out of the Legacy environment and put in the Standard environment, some people might get offended.

[DalkonCledwin]

Yeah, but if you take all this out of the Legacy environment and put in the Standard environment, some people might get offended.

Except this is the "Format Discussion" forum for a Legacy Bulletin Board... so I suggest we keep discussion related to how these cards are going to impact the Legacy format :tongue:

[rleader]

how often do Legend Cards see play in Legacy (aside from Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir)?

Um, lots of them more than Teferi, which I've never seen. Death and Taxes, Full English Breakfast, Reanimator, Squee in Survival lists. Most great legends tend to be lands or artifacts, of course.

The thing with planeswalkers is that they're just on the cusp of being playable. The problem with deathcloud in legacy isn't that garruk sucks, it's just that the whole deck hinges on him resolving. If there's ever a list that he helps but can survive without him, he's a pretty dangerous dude. If STD wasn't dominated by faeries right now (flyers can attack walkers at will), he'd probably be a $40 card as he'd trump every other ground and pound strategy.

Epic Control (Jace sometimes) and new HarleyQuin/Wombat (Ajani) show how close planeswalkers are to being relevant, especially since 90% of the removal cards we use don't know how to deal with them since they were printed a decade ago. Eventually they're going to print more three mana walkers, maybe even a two mana one (eventually everything that can happen will happen), so they'll enter the format one way or another.




Except WotC specifically states that they are making Mythic Rares to be "Timmy Cards" not "Spike Cards"! It is that simple!

And you trust them 100%? The funny thing is that they just moved a goal post: no one can complain that Thoughtseize should have been a common or uncommon, because as a utility card at least it's not a mythic rare!

[DalkonCledwin]

Um, lots of them more than Teferi, which I've never seen. Death and Taxes, Full English Breakfast, Reanimator, Squee in Survival lists. Most great legends tend to be lands or artifacts, of course.

fair enough. However what is the percentage of playable legends to the actual number of legends in existence? Do you see my point. For every playable Legend, about 3 or 4 non-playable legends exist. So by far the non-playable's out number the playable's.


The thing with planeswalkers is that they're just on the cusp of being playable. The problem with deathcloud in legacy isn't that garruk sucks, it's just that the whole deck hinges on him resolving. If there's ever a list that he helps but can survive without him, he's a pretty dangerous dude. If STD wasn't dominated by faeries right now (flyers can attack walkers at will), he'd probably be a $40 card as he'd trump every other ground and pound strategy.

Epic Control (Jace sometimes) and new HarleyQuin/Wombat (Ajani) show how close planeswalkers are to being relevant, especially since 90% of the removal cards we use don't know how to deal with them since they were printed a decade ago. Eventually they're going to print more three mana walkers, maybe even a two mana one (eventually everything that can happen will happen), so they'll enter the format one way or another.

You make some very valid points. The planeswalkers are very valid. However, they still do not make their way into all of the decks, and very rarely into the top-tier decks. Until Wizards prints a 2 Mana Planeswalker that does something on par with Jace Barelen or Lliana Vess for a much lower loyalty cost... then we probably aren't going to see a game breaking Planeswalker in Legacy.


And you trust them 100%? The funny thing is that they just moved a goal post: no one can complain that Thoughtseize should have been a common or uncommon, because as a utility card at least it's not a mythic rare!

I really do not think it is fair of us to be comparing old card rarities to this new Mythic Rarity... its like comparing apples and oranges. However yes, I do believe they are going to stay true to their word and print primarily flavor cards as Mythic Rares. However whether those flavor cards happen to be broken or not, is another matter entirely.

[Lego]

Until Wizards prints a 2 Mana Planeswalker that does something on par with Jace Barelen or Lliana Vess for a much lower loyalty cost... then we probably aren't going to see a game breaking Planeswalker in Legacy.

So when Wizards breaks the game in half?

[MattH]

No matter how you sugar-coat it, the company will be making extra money at the expense of those who want the cards.
How is that any different from every other card Wizards has ever sold? "Making money by selling products to people who want to buy them": lol capitalism lol

I don't particularly see the upside of Mythics, but I figure Wizards knows how to run their business. They've been doing it for like fourteen years and outlasted EVERY competitor. For fucking sure they have access to a ton of consumer research data that you and I don't.

I'm 100% sure some of the mythic cards are going to be chase rares. Wizards DOES want there to be hype and talk about them, after all. They probably want there to be a few Mutavault-Bitterblossom-Goyf-class cards in Standard at all times, but I'm betting that not more than 2-3 of the 15 Mythics in the big set pass the $10-on-ebay mark (once prices have settled).

Another angle which I haven't seen mentioned much is that with fewer cards to test and perfect, there's a slightly reduced chance of a mistake slipping through. Obviously it's still possible, but somewhat less so.

One thing I'm curious about, though, is what, if any, rationales for the Mythic cards are there besides selling more packs? The 'industry standards' argument seems very hollow, since Maro doesn't explain WHY the industry standard is for more than three rarities. Like, I understand why Magic started doing premium foil cards: people likez teh shiny. But I don't see any demand or expectation for more rarities. Maybe I just don't travel in those circles...?

Honestly what seems like the worst of these announcements is the lands-in-boosters. I think it's a great spirit, but the execution...I have my doubts as to whether it will actually get more lands in the hands of new players. I don't imagine new players buy a lot of packs. (It also fucks up Rochester drafting, where the pack wheels, not that more than two people per year do a Rochester draft.)

Problem is, I don't have any better solution. They can't really direct-sell packs of land because they'd have to sell them so cheap that they'd have no profit margin at all (it costs the same to print a land as a rare), and as Maro states, one of the problems is making lands available even in stores that don't carry Wizards' specialty products like fat packs etc.


Remember how rare Cranial Extraction was? They printed that card very low compared to other cards in the set, it's the same thing now. It just has a name.
Citation needed, plz.

[rleader]

So when Wizards breaks the game in half?

Planeswalkers are balanced by definition as they have abilities at odds with their loyalty. All you have to do is tweak enough in one direction to add "drawbacks" and you can reduce the mana cost. Also, they're only worried about breaking ext and standard when they cost things. Something like this might pass their testing (not saying it would break the game or is even terribly good, only that it could slip through at the mana cost):


Sargeant Sinkhole
BB
+1: Discard a card
-2: Each player sacrifices a land
-3: Each player loses 1 life, discards a card, sacrifices a creature, then sacrifices a land.

1 Loyalty

[DalkonCledwin]

Sargeant Sinkhole
BB
+1: Discard a card
-2: Each player sacrifices a land
-3: Each player loses 1 life, discards a card, sacrifices a creature, then sacrifices a land.

1 Loyalty

That type of card would instantly be in every Black deck, or deck that runs black, in Legacy at the very least. So yes, that is the type of Planeswalker we have to worry about. However like I said, Planeswalkers are slated for being Mythic Rares, so it will be about twice as hard to get this particular Planeswalker, and if it is as good as you make it look.. then it will easily have a price equal to or better than Mutavault (I doubt it would have a price comparable to Tarmogoyf, only because it simply is not as good in standard as it is in Legacy).

[The Rack]

Okay I still am not getting how Mythic rares will be anymore rare than any other rare. If there are 20 rares 5 are mythic you would have the same chance of getting a "specific chase mythic rare" as you would a "specific chase regular rare". I'm saying that the it doesn't matter that they are "Mythic" or not. They will see the same amount of print as any other rare correct?

[DalkonCledwin]

Okay I still am not getting how Mythic rares will be anymore rare than any other rare. If there are 20 rares 5 are mythic you would have the same chance of getting a "specific chase mythic rare" as you would a "specific chase regular rare". I'm saying that the it doesn't matter that they are "Mythic" or not. They will see the same amount of print as any other rare correct?

No they won't... it basically breaks down like this:

1 in every 8 booster packs will contain a Mythic Rare... meanwhile the other 7 in every 8 booster packs will contain a normal rare. However do to the quantity of normal rares when compared to the quantity of Mythic Rares, Mythic Rares are exactly twice as rare as the normal rares are. However that doesn't mean that they are going to be harder to get, it just means that any given copy of an ordinary rare is going to be twice as easier to obtain.

Do you understand now?

[rleader]

^ In other words, pulling a mythic is sort of like pulling a damnation (or any of the color shifted rares) from a pc pack (but with better odds) except you only get one rare in it.

[The Rack]

Okay so basically if Wizards prints a Tarmogoyf status Mythic Rare they screwed over basically everyone? Yeah I get the twice as much and everything now, thanks for clearing that up.

[Pinder]

No they won't... it basically breaks down like this:

1 in every 8 booster packs will contain a Mythic Rare... meanwhile the other 7 in every 8 booster packs will contain a normal rare. However do to the quantity of normal rares when compared to the quantity of Mythic Rares, Mythic Rares are exactly twice as rare as the normal rares are. However that doesn't mean that they are going to be harder to get, it just means that any given copy of an ordinary rare is going to be twice as easier to obtain.

Do you understand now?

To put it a little more simply.

Mythics come in one out of every 8 packs, and there are 15 Mythics. So every 8th pack you open will have a Mythic, and it could be any one of 15 Mythics. So, you have a 1 in 8 chance of opening any Mythic, and a (1/8)*(1/15)= 1/120 chance of opening a particular Mythic (math stolen from Nihil's post above).

Now, for normal rares, the chances you'll open a rare is higher, but there are more rares than Mythics, so the chances of opening any specific rare is lower. You have a 7/8 chance of opening any non-Mythic rare, and a (7/8)*(1/53)= 1/60.57 chance of opening a specific rare (again, math stolen from Nihil).

So the chance to open a specific rare is about 1/60, while the chance to open any specific Mythic is exactly 1/120. So the chance to open any specific Mythic is half that of opening a specific rare, thus making them twice as rare.

[vanele]

Sargeant Sinkhole
BB
+1: Discard a card
-2: Each player sacrifices a land
-3: Each player loses 1 life, discards a card, sacrifices a creature, then sacrifices a land.

1 Loyalty

The way this card reads its horrible. Investing 3 cards for each land an opponent controls does not seem like it would break the format. Maybe if it read target player it would be reasonable.

While yes, yesterday I was among the sky is falling crowd, I am starting to realize that while Mystic rares are not the end of the world. Despite the destined to happen high prices due to the rarity of these cards, I doubt wizards is going to print anything more then silly legends who you do not ever want to open outside of limited. That being said, the decreased card pool disappoints me, as I am a fellow who likes to likes to draft from the big card pools, thus having a different experience more often then not.

[rleader]

The way this card reads its horrible. Investing 3 cards for each land an opponent controls does not seem like it would break the format. Maybe if it read target player it would be reasonable.

I was mainly thinking of a life from the loam combo; sort of a semi-wasteland lock (only every other turn though) that also kills basics. When thinking of a deck that abuses symetrical effects (the downside wizards looks towards the most when undercosting things), Pox style decks came to mind. It was just a quick example, anyway, of what a two mana walker might look like. Whatever drawback they pinned on it would likely be exploitable somehow, given the size of the cardpool in legacy.

[insertnamehere]

In my opinion, they are lowering the amount of cards in the set. If they lower the amount of cards, they raise the chance of getting certain rares because the count is down. There is an average of 80 -90 rares in the previous standalone sets. In the next set, there are 53 rares and 15 Mythic Rares which is reduced which allows you a better chance of getting the rares you want. In regards to Goyf, He could be found in about 1:36 packs if not higher. I do not think that mythic rares will be that much higher in cost because most rares in a set go for an average of $3-$5 playable rares which are on average 2 - 3 times the value of the average rare (Goyf excluded)based on demand. For all we know the mythic cards could be 5 plainswalkers and 10 cards that resmeble steamflogger boss. Lets see what happens when the set comes out.

[Lego]

In my opinion, they are lowering the amount of cards in the set.

I'm not sure if you know what "opinion" means...

[Fossil4182]

While I don't like the idea of the "Mythic Rare", I believe WotC is doing this to appeal to the younger generation of players. Its been referenced several times that this resembles the Super-Rares of other games, and I think its a move by WotC to attract younger players to MtG. Part of the allure of other games to younger kids is the higher levels of collect-ability with certain cards. Thus I think WotC is trying to redesign some aspects of the game to lure younger players into playing MtG. At least from what I can tell at our local shop, the younger players still play Yu-Gi-Oh or Naruto or whatever and don't ever graduate to playing MtG. While MtG still continues to be the most consistent and enduring CCG/TCG out there, the game isn't growing at the same pace as other games are with younger players. Heck, you can ever read the article here which goes over quite a bit of what I'm saying.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgcom/daily/mr334

I think that MtG and WotC is actually listening to some player feedback and changing the game to make it better across the board. While adding Mythical Rares are not going to make some of the eternal players happy, it will appeal to younger players and when added to the other changes, I think it will all work out given that with less cards being printed, there won't be as many cards that eternal players are going to have to chase down.

[OffTheWall]

Lots of the arguments being made sound very much like when foils were first being introduced back in Urza's. Lots of people didn't like the idea because it seemed like a gimmick and people were mentioning that it would be the downfall of magic. Granted when foils came out the prices were greatly inflated and they were very difficult to find. Granted foils were of cards normally printed in the set, but they did not cause the downfall of the game, and there are people that collect foils, and there are people that could care less about them. The mythic rare idea in my mind will end up being similar to the beginning of foils.

[Versus]

Honestly, I have no complaints. I hate foils to begin with. When I open a money rare in foil I just trade it to someone who cares for 2-3 regular versions.

Unless any of these become staples, they will just be trade bait.

[Internet Hate Machine]

Honestly, I have no complaints. I hate foils to begin with. When I open a money rare in foil I just trade it to someone who cares for 2-3 regular versions.

Unless any of these become staples, they will just be trade bait.

Well thats the problem with them really. If they do become staples a large amount of people are going to be rather screwed.

[OffTheWall]

It depends on the power level of the mythic rares. If they are not exceptional, they will become collectors cards and nothing more. If they end up being the chase rares in a set then that would create a huge problem. If thoughtseize was printed 1/8th the number of time that it was, there would be a serious problem with the game.
If the casual market is the group they are going to attract, casual players have complained for years that magic is a game of whoever has the most expensive cards is going to win. The mythic rare creation will certainly not help to diffuse this myth.

[Versus]

That's why I said "unless they become staples". That will be the deciding factor of course. Sure, the Wizards guy said they wouldn't, but he's probably full of shit.

My wife and I played the Naruto CCG for like a month. Eventually half our decks were proxies because we realized all the good cards were "Super Rares". If that's what these become then everyone suffers. If Goyf, Doran, Garruk, and crew were $80 a pop like some of these other CCG's, then I as well as many others probably wouldn't be able to play competitive Magic at all.

If Mythics are just Dragons, Angels, Legends, and other Timmy stuff, then as I said, trade bait.

[raharu]

Actually, no it doesn't, they state specifically in one of the articles that "Utility Cards" such as Mutavault, Char, and Survival of the Fittest for example will not be made into "Mythic Rares." So in other words, we don't have to worry about our most important spells becoming extremely rare... plus Mythic Rares are only twice as rare as ordinary rares according to the site. They just appear 1 out of 8 times less as often as ordinary rares. So they shouldn't cost 4 or 5 times as much as ordinary rares of the same nature, just twice as much.

Seriously, is survival a utility card? Also, my specific example, Test Tiger, is an entire engine unto itself, much like SotF. An entire deck, actually, multiple variants of the same archetype, is built around it as well, just like survival. I'm pretty sure your analysis is off base, at least from the set of data I'm analyzing.

[caiomarcos]

If mythics are Dragons, Angels and stuff (and I believe they will be) it's one less junk rare to open in the few booster I'll crack.
Leaves more room for the real good cards. That feeling of opening a Niv-Mizzet (or whatever is appelaing for kids an not for tournament players) will be less frequent.

Yay for lands in boosters!! I can't stand using my WB Portuguese 4th basics from when there was a basic in boosters.

[Isamaru]

So does anyone else think that Mythic Rares will have the Relentless Rats text in reverse? "A deck may only include one ~."

I think that may be one way for WotC not to screw things up if they choose to make an actually-useful Mythic.

[Dont_Stop_Believin]

So does anyone else think that Mythic Rares will have the Relentless Rats text in reverse? "A deck may only include one ~."

I think that may be one way for WotC not to screw things up if they choose to make an actually-useful Mythic.

Wow. This is actually sounds like a really good idea to me, if you think about it they could theoretically begin to do this with any raritys, so they can make very cool and powerful cards that will be "restricted" everywhere. As such, Wizards probably will not go this route. :frown:

[technogeek5000]

Being a huge limited player, guess whos stoked.

I AM

This is gonna be so cool. How fucking nasty would it be to rip one of these in a draft. I draft with inexperienced players all the time so its not unthinkable to be passed these (once while drafting lorwyn with these group of players, I got a 4th pick garruk and a fucking 7th pick thoughtseize in the same round). I truly hope that Sarkhan Vohl will atleast be playable in aggro loam.

[Team-Hero]

Wow. This is actually sounds like a really good idea to me, if you think about it they could theoretically begin to do this with any raritys, so they can make very cool and powerful cards that will be "restricted" everywhere. As such, Wizards probably will not go this route. :frown:

I think someday they will. It's only a matter of time. Overpower the card game (WAY back in the day) used OPD - One Per Deck cards. I really liked the mechanic of this because you had to plan out when you were going to play it because you wanted it to resolve. Maybe not a permanent, but an OPD Sorcery could be strong. I doubt we'll see it anytime soon, but I wouldn't dismiss the idea.

[raharu]

That's why I said "unless they become staples". That will be the deciding factor of course. Sure, the Wizards guy said they wouldn't, but he's probably full of shit.

That is the most likely course of action.


My wife and I played the Naruto CCG for like a month. Eventually half our decks were proxies because we realized all the good cards were "Super Rares". If that's what these become then everyone suffers. If Goyf, Doran, Garruk, and crew were $80 a pop like some of these other CCG's, then I as well as many others probably wouldn't be able to play competitive Magic at all.

The reason that those cards are so expensive and hard to find in those games is because the rarity is right on the threshold so that card shops have to charge that much to keep in cards in stock because the cards are so rare, but the cards are common enough that it's cheaper to crack >9000 cases instead of buying the single from the secondary market, i.e. Konami turns more profit because it's gotten to the point where it's a wosre investment to go buy a single of what you need instead of a booster box.**


If Mythics are just Dragons, Angels, Legends, and other Timmy stuff, then as I said, trade bait.

I hope... I honestly do.

**Pre-release events are pretty much %50 of what most sucesful high level yugioh tournament players go to, but it's only to get cards on the cheap, i.e. offering a kid $40 for a $150 Judgement Dragon.

[Isamaru]

So "OPD" would be the shorter way to describe Relentless-Rats-in-Reverse (RRR is catchy ... okay not really).

I think OPD was part of the idea behind the Saviors' keyword "Epic" spells... but OPD means they could be cheaper instead of simply over-and-over...

[munkie]

Well I read the first page of this fucking garbage. And half of the second, then I skipped here.

Just think. You have been working on a game with the SAME engine for fifteen years. You have a company of people trying to keep this game alive and create new, exciting ideas.

Instead of bitching about the Mythic Rares now, wait until they are released. If they have a huge impact on the game, then bitch. I don't want to listen to this for another 4 months.

And if you think about it, opening a Mythic Rare is about the same probablility of opening a BOMB Time shifted card in a Time Spiral pack.

[xsockmonkeyx]

Wow. This is actually sounds like a really good idea. As such, Wizards probably will not go this route. :frown:

Statement truncated and quoted for sad truth.

[Jujuhawk]

And if you think about it, opening a Mythic Rare is about the same probablility of opening a BOMB Time shifted card in a Time Spiral pack.

There were BOMB timeshifted cards? IIRC timespiral timeshifted rares were worth under $5 aside from AKROMAA!

[raharu]

There were BOMB timeshifted cards? IIRC timespiral timeshifted rares were worth under $5 aside from AKROMAA!
Well, Dragonstorm combo kinda raped the shit out of standard for a while. It wasn't flash or anything, but it was kinda like belcher with search and a slower combo turn with the ability to randomly combo off t1.

[OffTheWall]

"There were BOMB timeshifted cards? IIRC timespiral timeshifted rares were worth under $5 aside from AKROMAA!"
Actually when timespiral first came out psy blast was $15.00, Shadowmages and Call of the Herd were all close to $10.00. Foils of the timeshifted cards were also ridiculously priced. Granted just like every set these cards dropped after time.

[Michael Keller]

"There were BOMB timeshifted cards? IIRC timespiral timeshifted rares were worth under $5 aside from AKROMAA!"
Actually when timespiral first came out psy blast was $15.00, Shadowmages and Call of the Herd were all close to $10.00. Foils of the timeshifted cards were also ridiculously priced. Granted just like every set these cards dropped after time.

Foil T.S. Tormod's Crypt was sitting close to 30 I think when it first came out.

[Janos_Wuryon]

In the strange case that no one has said this I feel the time is appropriate to drop a little truth on everyone who has over looked it. Wizards has always had "mythic rares" they havent always admited it. the Mythic break down is 1 in 8 packs. which mean there should be 3-5 in a box. How many goyfs, thoughtseize, garruck, etc. do you see a box?? you get maybe 3 quality rares per box now. this is no different than that. If this had been put into effect form morningtide you would have seen Bosk, Mutavault, Crusher, bitterblossom, chameleon collosus as mythic rares. throw in some limited bombs ( cards like twighlight guardian and Oona from shadowmoor) and you have a your Mythic rares. This is no different then when they admitted to having the R1,R2,R3 system in place ( thats the number per sheet of a particular rare)

[DalkonCledwin]

what I think WotC seems to have forgotten is that they already had several rarities of cards (as has already been mentioned)

Basic Land
Foil Basic Land
Commons
Foil Commons
Uncommons
Foil Uncommons
Rares
Foil Rares
Textless
Foil Textless
FNM Promo's
Junior Super-Series Promo's
Pre-Release Promo's
Release Promo's
Grand Prix Promo's
Pro-Tour Promo's
Judge Promo's
Richard Garfield Promo's
Artist Promo's

All told, we have 19 rarities... that in most games is unheard of... now we are adding 2 more rarities to the list, so in total we will have a grand total of 21 rarities? That seems a bit obscene!

[Iranon]

What I mind isn't broadening thine range of rarities, it's the distribution.

Old old example (to avoid touching recent misgivings): Savannah Lion. You don't get more 'bread and butter' than an efficient weenie without fancy abilities.
That sort of things should be common, or it shouldn't be printed at all if it's deemed too strong.

If 'mythic rares' end up being cool and unusual cards instead of tournament staples, I'm all for it; don't see that happen though.

[MattH]

what I think WotC seems to have forgotten is that they already had several rarities of cards (as has already been mentioned)

Basic Land
Foil Basic Land
Commons
Foil Commons
Uncommons
Foil Uncommons
Rares
Foil Rares
Textless
Foil Textless
FNM Promo's
Junior Super-Series Promo's
Pre-Release Promo's
Release Promo's
Grand Prix Promo's
Pro-Tour Promo's
Judge Promo's
Richard Garfield Promo's
Artist Promo's

All told, we have 19 rarities... that in most games is unheard of... now we are adding 2 more rarities to the list, so in total we will have a grand total of 21 rarities? That seems a bit obscene!
I don't think it's right to use the term 'rarity' to describe something that doesn't come in packs. 'Three rarities' doesn't mean the same thing as 'three editions'.

[undone]

All of the planes walkers have seen extensive play. Save for possibly the red one. There will be a cycle of the following planeswalkers

UB
UW
WG
GR
RB

Each one will save for 1 overcosted underpowered one be higly played. If one of them costs just the above listed colors I predict that the card will go to over 100$ (ESPECIALY IF ITS THE FRIGGING UB OR UW one)

This is possible to debate but I think the showing of the pic of the RG one is proof, Each mythic rare will(save a few timmy rares) Be extreamly playable. The problem only arizes when they print an eternal+ standard good mythic rare. That will cause the card to be over 100$ which would be the dumbest thing they have ever done.

The thing about mythic rares not being staples is utter crap. They have already shown that planeswalkers are and i QUOTE

"SOPOSED TO GO IN JUST ABOUT ANY DECK OF THOSE COLORS"

That is the defintion of staple rares to me. These mythic rares will be (Save a few legends or limited bombs) utterly superpowered cards that are rediculously expensive.

[freakish777]

So does anyone else think that Mythic Rares will have the Relentless Rats text in reverse? "A deck may only include one ~."

I think that may be one way for WotC not to screw things up if they choose to make an actually-useful Mythic.



This idea is fucking terrible. Anyone else remember when 4th Edition was in Standard? When Standard had... a restricted list?

You: "Gee, I really like this hand, it seems like it should be able to put up a fight, I'll keep."

Your Opponent: "My hand has my one of Balance in it. You want to scoop?"

You: "MOTHERFUCK!!"


They also tried this on Legends, before realizing it was stupid as hell.

Creating any card that would automatically be restricted in Standard (and was a legitimately powerful card) would just create an environment where people would bitch about "My opponent drew his one of Zealous Dragon of Fear, so I lost. Fuck this random ass game."

[Nihil Credo]

This idea is fucking terrible. Anyone else remember when 4th Edition was in Standard? When Standard had... a restricted list?

You: "Gee, I really like this hand, it seems like it should be able to put up a fight, I'll keep."

Your Opponent: "My hand has my one of Balance in it. You want to scoop?"

You: "MOTHERFUCK!!"


They also tried this on Legends, before realizing it was stupid as hell.

Creating any card that would automatically be restricted in Standard (and was a legitimately powerful card) would just create an environment where people would bitch about "My opponent drew his one of Zealous Dragon of Fear, so I lost. Fuck this random ass game."

The above only applies if restricting the card is a justification for making it overpowered as hell; Balance being a pretty good example of this (the Legends Legends sucked for other reasons).

Ever played Singleton? Because decks still aim for consistency (it's a competitive format after all), what you get are a lot of different games that however don't feel random because each deck still adheres to an archetype.

[freakish777]

Sure, but why print cards that aren't "too good" with the clause "You may play only one" on it?

If you want to play Highlander, or some other format where you allow 6 ofs, or 2 ofs, or no blue cards, or only creatures are allowed (Momir Vig Basic is awesome) or whatever, great! But why change the text on the card itself instead of just defining what the format is you want to play (and leave the text alone, allowing the card to be playable by any format)?

[Nihil Credo]

If you want to play Highlander, or some other format where you allow 6 ofs, or 2 ofs, or no blue cards, or only creatures are allowed (Momir Vig Basic is awesome) or whatever, great! But why change the text on the card itself instead of just defining what the format is you want to play (and leave the text alone, allowing the card to be playable by any format)?I was bringing Singleton up as an example to make my point that smaller copy limits do not *necessarily* mean an excessively random gameplay.


Sure, but why print cards that aren't "too good" with the clause "You may play only one" on it?
For example, you could design a card that would be broken in multiples.

Burning Fork
RR
Instant

~ deals 2 damage to target creature or player.
Copy up to one target instant or sorcery spell. You may choose new targets for the copy.

[undone]

Burning Fork
RR
Instant

~ deals 2 damage to target creature or player.
Copy up to one target instant or sorcery spell. You may choose new targets for the copy.

that card is so good, that if they printed it at all, it would get banned, not because of the play you think of. Mostly because it is a 2 for 1 for RR. Red doesnt get that. That and it reads RR copy target fireblast. Forking a fireblast is just bad, but this litteraly makes burn on the stack twice as lethal. hell 1RRR CAST PRICE OF PROGRISE TWICE!!!!!. and squeeze in 2 more damage.

Fork is good, but doesnt do anything by itself so not played. This would just be retarted.

And as to the reverse relentless rats thing. They have a system set up, shaking things up like that is likely to cause a near riot (mythic rares comming up and all) you dont want more then 1 big change at a time.

[TrialByFire]

that card is so good, that if they printed it at all, it would get banned, not because of the play you think of. Mostly because it is a 2 for 1 for RR. Red doesnt get that. That and it reads RR copy target fireblast. Forking a fireblast is just bad, but this litteraly makes burn on the stack twice as lethal. hell 1RRR CAST PRICE OF PROGRISE TWICE!!!!!. and squeeze in 2 more damage.

Fork is good, but doesnt do anything by itself so not played. This would just be retarted.

And as to the reverse relentless rats thing. They have a system set up, shaking things up like that is likely to cause a near riot (mythic rares comming up and all) you dont want more then 1 big change at a time.

Or they might Ban it because having two of them does infinite damage, but your right, copying Fireblast is busted :rolleyes:

[Unknown2]

Ok, it was stated that the MR cards were going to be main characters of the novels, not my playability of the cards.

The way I see it, dual planeswalkers will be less useful than the others, thus worth less, even if their rarity is doubled. It's like this is in yugioh who has been using this method since the get-go. If the MR is crap, nobody'll want it.
Look at shadowmoor, kitchen finks is worth more than some of the rares. lol

Anyway, I really don't think this will change the game at all. Maybe drafting a little. I Mean, I would prefer it to not happen, but I don't think the apocalypse is on the rise because of it, only a slight nuisance

[raharu]

Ok, it was stated that the MR cards were going to be main characters of the novels, not my playability of the cards.

The way I see it, dual planeswalkers will be less useful than the others, thus worth less, even if their rarity is doubled. It's like this is in yugioh who has been using this method since the get-go. If the MR is crap, nobody'll want it.
Look at shadowmoor, kitchen finks is worth more than some of the rares. lol

Anyway, I really don't think this will change the game at all. Maybe drafting a little. I Mean, I would prefer it to not happen, but I don't think the apocalypse is on the rise because of it, only a slight nuisance
Nah, I'm pretty sure that we're all going to die in a firey, rare cardboard related death and go th hell.

[xsockmonkeyx]

This idea is fucking terrible. Anyone else remember when 4th Edition was in Standard? When Standard had... a restricted list?

You: "Gee, I really like this hand, it seems like it should be able to put up a fight, I'll keep."

Your Opponent: "My hand has my one of Balance in it. You want to scoop?"

You: "MOTHERFUCK!!"

My friend and I have been playing the 1995 Pro Tour Championship decks off and on for about 12 years now. I can assure you that the situation you describe above is hyperbole. Although, Black Vise on the play....