June 1st B/R Discussion [Archive]

Sims

06-02-2008, 01:45 AM

Holy fuck, Ponder? Wow. Didn't see that coming.

I predict TMD is going to look a lot (http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=35878) like The Source, circa Sept 1, 2004.

You know. I normally wouldn't say anything, but considering there was a LOT of Vintage players that got on us about the changes the day that 1.5 died and Legacy was created and how we were complaining... I just have to say this...

How does it feel, fuckers?

Okay, I'm sorry. That wasn't constructive or nice... But I'd love for them to be reminded that they aren't the only format whom had the rug pulled out from underneath them and to at least try to accept it with the humility that they kept yelling at us to take our new format and accept it with.

By the by, I love Legacy and enjoy it as a format... but I do miss 1.5 and remember quite well the shitstorm that was the image of our community after the sundering.

m03

06-02-2008, 01:46 AM

Ha, beat me to the punch.

...and just today I started picking up Vintage staples so I could get back into it, and then they drop a nuke on the whole format. Wonderful.

With those kinds of decisions, we're all lucky that they didn't entertain changes to Legacy.

CynicalSquirrel

06-02-2008, 01:49 AM

As someone who has not followed Vintage at all for the last few months, all I have to say is: What the fuck? Honestly, this looks like one of those goofy 5 Color ban lists.

Pinder

06-02-2008, 01:51 AM

Like colin said before. We'll have a lot of new players thanks to this change.

Between the restrictions pushing people out of Vintage and Mythic Rares making Standard/Extended unaffordable, Legacy might be the biggest its ever been.

Brehn

06-02-2008, 02:07 AM

June 1 2008 DCI Banned and Restricted List Announcement

Vintage

Brainstorm is restricted
Flash is restricted
Gush is restricted
Merchant Scroll is restricted
Ponder is restricted

September 1 2008 DCI Banned and Restricted List Announcement

Vintage

Bazaar of Baghdad is restricted
Mishra's Workshop is restricted

Apex

06-02-2008, 02:20 AM

And 3 month after that, Stinkweed Imp and Golgari-Grave Troll?

But seriously though, if they unrestricted Gush and then restricted it again in such a relative short amount of time, then it's not unlikely that they could just unrestrict Brainstorm and Ponder after maybe 6 months or something.

Though I am looking forward to friday's article about the reasoning behind the restriction of Ponder. The others I can see a somewhat defendable argument. But Ponder? So why not Sensei's Divining Top then?

Eldariel

06-02-2008, 02:24 AM

Seems like they want to make Vintage more "vivid" so they shake it up every half a year or so. Who the hell thought unrestricting Gush would be a good move again?

ReAnimated

06-02-2008, 02:34 AM

Flash is restricted YES!
Gush is restricted THAT WORKS TOO!
Scroll is restricted ALRIGHTY THEN.
Bainstorm is restricted ARE YOU KIDDING ME?
Ponder is restricted WTF!!!

One of the guys from TMD posted that. Sums it up pretty well.

Brehn

06-02-2008, 02:40 AM

Hmm.... pretty nice that Legacy's banned list isn't Vintage's restricted list anymore. Brainstorm + Ponder banned... Goblin Piledrivers would raise in price.

Aggro_zombies

06-02-2008, 02:45 AM

Ahahahahaha, Vintage. :laugh:

Ahem.

Well, it's nice to see there's no changes to Legacy. Short of some surprise banhammer or an errata change out of left field, the format is pretty stable right now.

raharu

06-02-2008, 02:47 AM

Just to say it, Ponder got banned. Fuck, am I good or what?

m03

06-02-2008, 02:52 AM

Just to say it, Ponder got banned. Fuck, am I good or what?

Except it didn't, it got restricted.

But yeah, you are good ;)

BreathWeapon

06-02-2008, 02:52 AM

Brainstorm and Ponder restricted, that has to be the most ignorant banning I've seen in the history of MTG, TMD is going to be so pissed.

raharu

06-02-2008, 03:01 AM

I don't even play the fomat and I'm ||<that far from being seriously concerned. Brainstorm is one of the strongest cards in our format. Seriously, do you think that threshold could run without it? Well, Portent, but it sure as hell wouldn't be dominant. You could kill a large portion of legacy by removing Brainstorm from our format, and if they've thought about it for Vintage, you have to acknowledge that they've thought about banning it here.

Afro

06-02-2008, 03:51 AM

I rofled. Let them cry.

THEchubbymuffin

06-02-2008, 03:59 AM

September 1 2008 DCI Banned and Restricted List Announcement

Vintage

Bazaar of Baghdad is restricted
Mishra's Workshop is restricted

I laughed when i read this. If that happens, Goblins might be dominant somewhere again! (Unless Vintage starts playing Goyf)

spirit of the wretch

06-02-2008, 04:39 AM

zefhek

06-02-2008, 05:19 AM

wow never seen a whole engine getting ripped... flash, gush, and scroll would've been healthy, but that is insane.

frolll

06-02-2008, 05:30 AM

Most scary thing is... they can also do this to Legacy, at any time. This is really freaking me out, the thought of Legacy without, say, LED, Brainstorm and Ponder. Holy shit... :/

They should just ban Island, instead of restrincting things until Skullclamp is broken again.

Spardantevil

06-02-2008, 05:50 AM

When Toad said BS and Ponder should be banned I actually didn't take it seriously...

Now, I'm GLAD I didn't buy some P9 yet.

DeathwingZERO

06-02-2008, 06:43 AM

It is going to shake up the format, but it's hardly the hit we took in 2004. We lost entire decks, these guys have lost cards that should have been restricted years ago.

Brainstorm is just as good as any given tutor in Vintage, and an instant at that. You don't net anything, but the fact that you see 3 new cards is still too good for the format.

We (Vintage) guys knew Merchant was going to get chopped for months now, it's DT #s2-5 in Vintage. Seriously, it fetches any card from your deck eventually, through Gifts, Ancestral etc. No surprise there.

Flash and Gush? Obviously needed the hit. Neither made the format any more fun, nor did they bring about any creativity. I can't honestly say I'm upset either is gone. Would have liked a little more time to see Gush in action around here though.

Ponder, that's probably the only one I'm still not sure about. It digs and can reshuffle and at worst is still a cantrip. I can't say it's dangerous, but with Brainstorm gone, there's a good chance it would have been put to an auto-include of 4. Maybe.

Either way, we didn't lose any decks from it. At least nothing we weren't already expecting to lose (Flash and GAT/Gush Storm). Restricting Scroll and Brainstorm just seemed to be obvious choices.

I'm really confused nothing was touched with Ichorid though. Guess we'll just have to see how things go.

And honestly, I wouldn't be shocked in the least if by the end of the year Bazaar and Workshop are hit by the restriction hammer. They deserve it just as much as anything that was hit this time.

georgjorge

06-02-2008, 06:47 AM

I think they missed the REALLY dangerous blue cards - Serum Visions and Opt, not to mention Impulse...

Nihil Credo

06-02-2008, 06:50 AM

Now I want to see them reprint Brainstorm in 11th edition.

Cabal-kun

06-02-2008, 07:07 AM

You know. I normally wouldn't say anything, but considering there was a LOT of Vintage players that got on us about the changes the day that 1.5 died and Legacy was created and how we were complaining... I just have to say this...

How does it feel, fuckers?

I remember the arguments that came up when Flash was errated. Particularly, how many 'Legacy experts' trickled in from the Vintage forums. As Spatula can remember, the arguments with Lancer on the WotC forum were particularly fun. Something about exposing the glaring inconsistencies in their arguments was most enjoyable. And irony. Irony is funny.

But back to something more on topic: Yeah, major changes like that are going to be rough. I suppose I could say I sympathize with them...a little.

deviant

06-02-2008, 07:15 AM

Umm..
So I still mull to bazaar and get to win in addition of not having to think?

Why not ditch FoW while we're at it?

kicks_422

06-02-2008, 08:21 AM

I like the changes. Decks don't start with 4 BS, 4 Ponder, 4 Merchant Scroll, 4 Gush, 4 FoW anymore (plus Moxen, Lotus, recall, lands, that's already half a deck). Deck construction is actually relevant now.

Nightmare

06-02-2008, 08:58 AM

I swear to fucking god, there will be no talks about what should be banned in Legacy in this thread - specifically, griping about a vanilla green beater. I will warn the shit out of anyone who goes there.

EvolIntent

06-02-2008, 10:18 AM

well as for the vintage b/r,i could care less seeing as we have almost no vintage in my area(almost no legacy either for that matter,albany- saratoga ny area if you cared) but maybe this is what legacy needed to get more players:smile:

Van Phanel

06-02-2008, 10:28 AM

Gush was necessary. Period.

Scroll and Flash (in that order) are okay to be restricted.

Brainstorm was unnecessary in my opinion and I don't like the restriction, yet there are arguments that can be made for it (It makes - oh, right it _made_ - it easy to play crappy cards that you need to complete a combo (name: the Slivers in Flash for example) because when you drew them it would be easy to get them out of your hand). Has anybody thought of Lat-Nam's Legacy as a replacement yet (the 2 mana will hurt however)?

What bugs me most is the restriction of Ponder. Restricting a Sorcery (!) that just digs 4 cards deep was absolutely insane and shows that WotC has no f***ing clue how the format works.

Lets get back to Legacy.

Cait_Sith

06-02-2008, 10:53 AM

One big *shrug* followed by a sighed *meh* and that's it!
On the other hand this B/R update might stop people from complaining about the lack of changes in Legacy. They could've fucked up our format too =)

Actualy, it wouldn't be that easy. Because of the whole ban over restriction the ability of Legacy to entertain a much wider number of decks makes it so that, if each of those cards were banned right now, we would already have plenty of pre-made and well tested decks to take the spots of the deck that lost out.

Edit:

@Van: Ponder does not dig 4! Blarg. It can dig 3 or 1! THREE OR ONE!

FoolofaTook

06-02-2008, 11:03 AM

So Vintage is now power Highlander. Nothing wrong with that. It's been headed that direction forever, they just took a major step there by restricting Brainstorm and Ponder.

The real question is not about what the effects of not having Brainstorm x4 and Ponder x4 is, the real question is how the f*ck do you play Force of Will when you need to find 6 blue fills for those?

mujadaddy

06-02-2008, 11:06 AM

Nightmare

06-02-2008, 11:06 AM

Brainstorm was unnecessary in my opinion and I don't like the restriction, yet there are arguments that can be made for it (It makes - oh, right it _made_ - it easy to play crappy cards that you need to complete a combo (name: the Slivers in Flash for example) because when you drew them it would be easy to get them out of your hand). Has anybody thought of Lat-Nam's Legacy as a replacement yet (the 2 mana will hurt however)?

What bugs me most is the restriction of Ponder. Restricting a Sorcery (!) that just digs 4 cards deep was absolutely insane and shows that WotC has no f***ing clue how the format works.

Brainstorm's "Put two back" is the very least of the concerns with the card. The more important factor was what I mentioned about three days ago - In a format which is beginning to resemble highlander anyway, and has hit critical mass as far as powerful tutors goes, Brainstorm's ability to put three new cards in your hand without significant drawback, at instant speed, is WAY over the power threshold, even for that format. In our testing for Vintage, it had gotten to the point where I was willing to counter Brainstorm over almost any other non-gamewinning spell, simply because of how powerful the spell is in the decks that abuse it. I was happily trading a Red Blast for a Brainstorm, or even a Mana Drain. That's disgusting. Wizards gave fair warning - they mentioned during the last round of B&R that while they recognize the need for Force to be unrestricted for the health of the format, the same is simply not true for Brainstorm.

It's also fairly obvious to the objective observer that Ponder is being restricted as a precautionary measure to avoid -3 Brainstorm +3 Ponder to the decks that are able to survive without Scroll and Gush.

m03

06-02-2008, 11:15 AM

Why not ditch FoW while we're at it?

It looks like that may have been part of the reasoning behind hitting BS and Ponder...it also takes down FoW with them because now there are less good cards that can either be played or be pitched to Force.

Now, combo decks that ran 4 of each will have to run ALL of the tutors in order to maintain consistency, which will in make FoW less usable than it was before.

Looks like I shouldn't have traded off my Pacts after all.

It is going to shake up the format, but it's hardly the hit we took in 2004. We lost entire decks, these guys have lost cards that should have been restricted years ago.

Vintage does lose entire decks to this. The loss of consistency that BS/Ponder provided hurts alot of popular combo decks, and will probably make them uncompetetive. The same goes for the Gushbond engine, which was integrated into a number of decks.

I was just starting to pick up Next Level Doomsday (due to its shortage of power cards). It's been affected by all the restrictions except for Flash, and it looks like the deck will have to have a strategic redesign, if it can even remain playable at all.

Wasn't Gush un-restricted just a year ago?

FoolofaTook

06-02-2008, 11:15 AM

That's kinda jacked up w.r.t. Brainstorm. That's been out since Ice Age, and *NOW* it's too powerful? Lol.

FoolofaTook juuuust wrote: "So Vintage is now power Highlander. Nothing wrong with that. It's been headed that direction forever" <-- also, :laugh: They oughta actually do that :smile: so I can play Shahrazad again :tongue:

All significantly powerful effects will eventually be seen as too powerful given the additions of other amplifying effects to the overall meta. To spawn an instant Yogi-ism "cumulative effects add up."

Illissius

06-02-2008, 11:30 AM

Lmfao. June 1, 2008 is the first step in Wizards' secret plan to abolish all the other formats and make Legacy the One True King.

June 1 2008 DCI Banned and Restricted List Announcement

Vintage

Brainstorm is restricted
Flash is restricted
Gush is restricted
Merchant Scroll is restricted
Ponder is restricted

September 1 2008 DCI Banned and Restricted List Announcement

Vintage

Bazaar of Baghdad is restricted
Mishra's Workshop is restrictedDark Ritual is restricted
Mana Drain is restricted
Oath of Druids is restricted

December 1 2008 DCI Banned and Restricted List Announcement

Vintage

Skullclamp is restricted

EDIT: Just to be clear, the secret plan is the Mythic Rares crap and restricting Ponder and whatnot, the above is the fulfulling of my prophecy of "restrict everything until Skullclamp is good, then restrict Skullclamp", and is actually a good thing.

mujadaddy

06-02-2008, 11:43 AM

All significantly powerful effects will eventually be seen as too powerful given the additions of other amplifying effects to the overall meta. To spawn an instant Yogi-ism "cumulative effects add up."Very nice. :laugh:

And, to address your point:

1. Changing multiple variables in an experiment is NOT how good science is done.
2. It seems like since 'everyone' is in agreement regarding Flash & Gush that hitting Brainstorm/Merchant Scroll/Ponder with the same bat *at the same time* could end up emaciating the format.

Don't get me wrong -- I hate what Vintage has become, but it wasn't Brainstorm that did that; it was 'alot of other br0k3n cards.' Ban them; don't restrict Brainstorm (and, of course, conflating Brainstorm w/ Ponder is stupid).

Nightmare

06-02-2008, 11:48 AM

Don't get me wrong -- I hate what Vintage has become, but it wasn't Brainstorm that did that; it was 'alot of other br0k3n cards.' Ban them; don't restrict Brainstorm (and, of course, conflating Brainstorm w/ Ponder is stupid).Banning cards in Vintage is stupid. The entire point of the format is to be a haven for the "oops I'm broken" cards to be played - even if you can only use one.

mujadaddy

06-02-2008, 11:52 AM

b4r0n

06-02-2008, 11:55 AM

The only justification for restricting Brainstorm is that Vintage has finally hit such a critical mass of bombs that a cantrip is equivalent to a tutor. If that were actually true, then restricting Brainstorm might have been a good idea. However, there's no way of knowing whether this is actually true. By restricting Flash, Gush, and Scroll, the format is going to be shaken up a lot anyways. Taking out Brainstorm and Ponder in addition is simply stupid. Restricting FIVE cards at once is not only completely unnecessary, but extremely foolish.

Like others have said, I fully expect Bazaar and Shop to be restricted by the end of the year, and wouldn't be surprised to see Ritual restricted too. The format is now going to degenerate into prison vs. combo (Ichorid and Belcher are going to be stupidly good, Dragon might be decent). Ugh. How is that any better than having blue be dominant?

Nightmare

06-02-2008, 11:55 AM

You're right of course (I'm the one who pines for Shahrazad :cool: :tongue: ) -- replace "ban them" with "restrict them if they're that broken" ... No singleton in Magic is that powerful, to my knowledge (but I missed the whole Skullclamp era).Well, now I'm confused. You're saying Restrict the Restricted cards, because they're broken, not Brainstorm...

Yet, Brainstorm finds three of them, and puts them in your hand. When you hit critical mass of broken spells (Hint: Vintage is damned close), the enablers become broken, too.

Nihil Credo

06-02-2008, 12:04 PM

And, to address your point:

1. Changing multiple variables in an experiment is NOT how good science is done.
2. It seems like since 'everyone' is in agreement regarding Flash & Gush that hitting Brainstorm/Merchant Scroll/Ponder with the same bat *at the same time* could end up emaciating the format.
Restricting Flash and Gush would have made the format basically identical to last year (what were the other additions? NarcoBridge and Thorn of Amethyst?). If they were going to try restricting the dig spells, there was little reason to wait three more months to do it. And it's better to do a big change every year than a smaller change every three months.

Illissius

06-02-2008, 12:14 PM

For your entertainment, #themanadrain, Ground Zero:

[05:59:13] *** Katzby sets the channel topic to "So I hear the B/R list comes out in 1 minutes.".
[05:59:19] <[Roxas]> somehow I doubt my 1650 limited gets me any byes
[05:59:20] <[Roxas]> :)
[05:59:53] <[Roxas]> I doubt I'm going to play in GP Indy. The legacy event seems cooler and more likely for me to do well.
[05:59:54] <Triple_S> i'll be just above or below 1800 i think
[06:00:08] <Veggies> HJOL SDHITY
[06:00:09] <Veggies> Brainstorm is restricted
[06:00:10] <Veggies> Flash is restricted
[06:00:10] <Veggies> Gush is restricted
[06:00:10] <Veggies> Merchant Scroll is restricted
[06:00:10] <Veggies> Ponder is restricted
[06:00:17] <Katzby> WHAT
[06:00:26] *** LeeSharpe sets the channel topic to "New Vintage Restrictions: Brainstorm, Flash, Gush, Merchant of Scrolls, Ponder".
[06:00:27] <Veggies> NOT A JOKE
[06:00:29] <Veggies> WOW
[06:00:34] <[Roxas]> hoooooly shiiiit
[06:00:40] <[Roxas]> welcome to random.format, consistency is GONE
[06:00:42] <kirdape3> and
[06:00:43] <kirdape3> THAT
[06:00:44] <kirdape3> IS
[06:00:44] <Veggies> I was kind of comptenlplating a huge ransacking
[06:00:46] <Veggies> BUT HOLY SHIT
[06:00:47] *** LeeSharpe sets the channel topic to "New Vintage Restrictions: Brainstorm, Flash, Gush, Merchant Scroll, Ponder".
[06:00:51] <wraith985> lol
[06:00:52] <jet|lpt> gonk
[06:00:59] <Zeke> 9/10: would rage again
[06:01:00] <Katzby> HOLY!!!!

SpatulaOfTheAges

06-02-2008, 12:14 PM

Dear Vintage;

LoLoLoLoLoLoLoLoLoLoLoLoLoLoLoLoLoLoLoLoLoLoLoLoLoLoLoL.

Sincerely,
Spat.

mujadaddy

06-02-2008, 12:16 PM

Well, I'm not The Decider, so, hey, no biggie.

I'm just the kind of guy who likes Demonic Tutor in his black deck & Balance in his white.

freakish777

06-02-2008, 12:36 PM

I once had a friend try and argue that if every card were restricted that aggro decks would be king (and that that would be a good thing) due to the number of decent one and two drops you could play with and the number of Lightning Bolts printed (Lava Spike, Chain Lightning, Incinerate etc). I told him he was on crack and showed his the following list (this was right after Mirrodin, before Portal cards were legal):

//Lands
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Underground Sea
1 Gemstome Mine
1 City of Brass
1 Tarnished Citadel
1 Undiscovered Paradise
1 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
1 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Archeological Dig
1 Forsaken City
1 Glimmervoid

//Artifact Mana
1 Chrome Mox
5 Real Mox
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Vault
1 Mana Crypt
1 Grim Monolith
1 Mox Diamond
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Lion's Eye Diamond

//More mana
1 Dark Ritual
1 Cabal Ritual
1 Elvish Spirit Guide
1 Crop Rotation
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Rebuild
1 Fastbond

//Set Up cards
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Frantic Search
1 Brainstorm
1 Regrowth
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Impulse
1 Lim-Duls Vault

//Protection
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Duress
1 Xantid Swarm

//Truly Busted
1 Tinker
1 Memory Jar
1 Yawg Will
1 Timetwister
1 Windfall
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Yawgmoth's Bargain
1 Mind's Desire
1 Time Spiral

//Winning
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Brain Freeze

After he goldfished it he said that in a 60 card highlander format that in addition to every card being restricted that every card on my list should be banned...

I think every card they restricted in Vintage with the potential exception of Ponder deserved it. That said, -3 Brainstorm turning into +1 Ponder and +2 Impulse wouldn't surprise me, and most Vintage players will simply move on, happy to have a reason to play their Impulses again.

Finn

06-02-2008, 01:12 PM

I read that some of you are concerned that Brainstorm could potentially be banned in Legacy. I think that possibility is beyond remote, especially when you consider that Ponder went as well. Brainstorm is gone in Vintage for its tutor ability at 1 mana. You will note that in Legacy there is nothing earth-shattering to tutor for. It is awesome in Legacy for a variety of reasons (instant speed, hand replacement, etc) none of which are grounds to ban it.

Wizards does a lot of things well that we wrongly second-guess them about (Psiblast reprint comes to mind). But weren't we all scratching our heads when Gush came off the list? And I think that the restriction of Flash in Vintage is simply the capstone to a gigantical boneheaded clusterfuck that took over a year for them to sweep under the rug. It's time to fire the poorly trained monkeys that are making these decisions.

Speaking of which - anyone wanna buy my Bazaars?

ParkerLewis

06-02-2008, 01:41 PM

I think every card they restricted in Vintage with the potential exception of Ponder deserved it. That said, -3 Brainstorm turning into +1 Ponder and +2 Impulse wouldn't surprise me, and most Vintage players will simply move on, happy to have a reason to play their Impulses again.

I agree with you. I'm no Vintage expert at all, but it seemed natural (for most players at least) to see Gush and Scroll being restricted. Brainstorm was somewhat suspected, too, for the reasons already mentioned.

But Ponder seemed far more safe, being a Sorcery and letting you get only 1 of the 3 cards seen. I wonder why they chose to restrict it at the same time. The other changes would have been a very significant move already. It certainly wouldn't have been worthless to actually see the result before also restricting Ponder.

FoolofaTook

06-02-2008, 02:07 PM

Pondering the restriction of Brainstorm and Ponder at the same time it occurred to me that what WoTC was really saying was that in Vintage the ability to look at 3 cards in a single event for 1 mana and put at least 1 of them in your hand is too powerful for that format. I'm having a hard time believing that that is true, however if it is then how much longer until Sensei's Divining Top buys a restriction also? It costs 1 extra mana the first turn to put the effect into play but then it is a permanent.

In terms of Vintage, do decks now go with 4 SDT's to replace some of the dig?

m03

06-02-2008, 02:24 PM

In terms of Vintage, do decks now go with 4 SDT's to replace some of the dig?

Since SDT can't be pitched to FoW, I think Impulse probably has a better shot at being the default replacement.

ramanujan

06-02-2008, 02:25 PM

I believe that the bannings were a good decision.

Wizards probably had a few options available to them as far as what to do with vintage. However, I think we all expected merchant scroll to get the axe in any senario.

The first was to leave it alone other than merchant scroll, there were several decktypes and players enjoyed the format.

The second was to unrestrict some cards that were not as powerful in decks as the current options and allow the format to possibly get more powerful and restrict merchant scroll.

The third was what they did.

Restriction and unrestriction come at a cost in the form of diversity and power. Unrestricting cards may lead to more decks, but less card diversity. How many decklists start with the same 25-30 card shell and then only deviate in one of two kill conditions, get lucky and win early or hope that your oponent doesent get lucky and your other strategy trumps theirs.

I am certain that there exists several possible vintage enviroments which are balanced. However, the formerly current vintage enviroment was somewhat balanced and too powerful. In order to have the restricted list not contain cards that are weak, they would need to unrestrict several other cards that they have no intentions of restricting.

Think about how the decks in vintage truely play out and think to yourself how many cards on the restricted list could be removed and still have balance in the format.

Wizards recognised that card filters and drawers like brainstorm and ponder have a profoundly different effect in games of vintage then they do in extended or even legacy. A threshold had been crossed in both experiance and cardpool that took seemingly fair cards and made them less fair than some widely accepted restricted cards.

This is not the first time that something like this has happenned in vintage, and it will probably not be the last.

Peace

BreathWeapon

06-02-2008, 02:28 PM

Apex

06-02-2008, 03:25 PM

Nightmare

06-02-2008, 03:26 PM

Anyone else stoked to pick up a set of Foil Jap Brainstorms on the cheap?

Apex

06-02-2008, 03:36 PM

Anyone else stoked to pick up a set of Foil Jap Brainstorms on the cheap?

I'm just glad my whimsical purchase of a set of foil Impulse (which was apparently the "worst buy of the century" according to my friends) did not totally go to waste.

Bryant Cook

06-02-2008, 03:39 PM

Anyone else stoked to pick up a set of Foil Jap Brainstorms on the cheap?

<- This guy. That makes Jap Foil TES alot more possible.

AnwarA101

06-02-2008, 03:46 PM

I thought that Wizards was not inclined to ban older cards in Vintage. While reversing themselves on something like Gush seems fine and Flash was a fairly new addition to the format, but Brainstorm and Merchant Scroll go back to almost the beginning of the game. Have those cards ever been banned in Vintage before? Am I wrong about Wizards preference? I don't know much about Vintage, but the decision seems nothing short of an earthquake.

Lego

06-02-2008, 04:15 PM

Anyone else stoked to pick up a set of Foil Jap Brainstorms on the cheap?

What's funny is the folks who bid BEFORE the B/R announcement on auctions that end AFTER it... they've gotta be pissed.

Nightmare

06-02-2008, 04:25 PM

What's funny is the folks who bid BEFORE the B/R announcement on auctions that end AFTER it... they've gotta be pissed.I did that (as a seller) during Last year's Flash announcement. I hope they were vintage players!!!

(Bought at $1, sold at $40)

TheAardvark

06-02-2008, 04:32 PM

Brainstorm has axed for 2 primary reasons, IMO:

1. The DCI's obsession with its "4-of in every deck it can be in" pseudo-rule. Brainstorm has been toeing the line for a while, and they finally hit on it now.

2. Slow play. I can't tell you how painful it is to watch Brainstorm resolve in most Vintage tournaments. Sure, I understand that the decisions are important to the game state, etc., but the amount of time many people take to do this is absolutely ridiculous.

I think Ponder was hit because it would be the defacto replacement for Brainstorm, and they'd feel compelled to hit it in the future, so they hit it preemptively. I think Nightmare said something similar earlier, and it's true.

Sanguine Voyeur

06-02-2008, 04:36 PM

I'm glad that they restricted Gush again. I'm just starting to get into Vintage, and my deck just got a lot better.

BreathWeapon

06-02-2008, 04:39 PM

Man, Bazaars and Workshops are going to be a big gamble in terms of money.

With Ichorid and Shop untouched, it's not going to be a big surprise that those decks will be popular. So Bazaars and Workshops will both likely see an increase in price.

However, you can't hold on to them forever, since apparently, anything can be restricted at any time. If you got caught with your pants down and Bazaars suddenly took a nosedive in value after the restriction, then that's alot of potential pocket money lost. Do you wait till August? Or are you going to gamble with the restriction list come September? If they don't get restricted and you sold them early, that's potential money lost too.

If I owned a set of Bazaars and Shops right now, I would probably have a big "Fuck You" to say to WotC.

The DCI doesn't have the balls to restrict either land based on their value, the restrictions yesterday were all .50$ commons for the most part. If the DCI restricted Bazaar of Baghdad or Mishra's Factory, they'd have a fucking riot on their hands.

If Ichorid warrants restriction, I think they'd restrict Serum Powder. It's Dragon, Madness, Oshawa Stompy, Cerebral Assassion or Dawn of the Dead that's really going to bring Bazaar of Baghdad to the top, Ichorid is still too easy to hate on and every one is gunning for it now.

Raider Bob

06-02-2008, 04:55 PM

Sept 1st Restrictions for Vintage.

Since Legacy has such a healthy environment now, all cards Banned in Legacy will now be restricted in Vintage. All cards currently Restricted in Vintage stay restricted, welcome to Highlander.Type1.

scrumdogg

06-02-2008, 05:10 PM

The DCI doesn't have the balls to restrict either land based on their value, the restrictions yesterday were all .50$ commons for the most part. If the DCI restricted Bazaar of Baghdad or Mishra's Factory, they'd have a fucking riot on their hands.

1.5 circa August 30, 2004 would like to have a word with you about that...and the word is 'bullshit'. Every card you play, at any time, in a sanctioned environment, is subject to banning, restriction or errata and if those lands double in value it only brings them further scrutiny. And by riot, if you mean explosion of rage & resentment on message boards, sound & fury signifying nothing, as opposed to actual rioting, then you would be correct. So what? Means nothing.

On Brainstorm: The damn thing is nearly broken in Legacy, in Vintage it's stupid good (see Barnello's points for why) - plus having Menendian 10 Minute Brainstorms is Not A Good Thing. And you won't be getting playsets of foil Japanese Brainstorms...only 3x at a time...:cool:

Goaswerfraiejen

06-02-2008, 05:36 PM

After my initial :eek: I had a good :laugh: . Of course, I neither play Vintage nor pay any attention to it.

I've got to say that after reading the suppositions given for Brainstorm's restriction, they make sense to me, a format outsider. As far as Ponder is concerned, I personally prefer to see a Ponder in my opening hand than Brainstorm (in Legacy, obviously) precisely because of the option to shuffle. For the moment that's just me, but there you have it.

blacklotus3636

06-02-2008, 06:44 PM

When I first saw the announcment I thought it was a joke. I thought it was so stupid to do that but then someone built a vintage storm deck...
I didn't think about how many stupidly good cards they have that are restrcited. They have so many that now they can make an entire broken deck with mainly restricted cards. Thats scary
When you have to restrict cards like brainstorm it shows how truly messed up that format is. I think someone else already said it but I think the restriction policy is finally showing that it doesn't really fix anything. I think we are now witnessing the emplosion of vintage. No matter what vintage players say, eventually vintage will be unplayable even with force of will unless you start banning cards.

Michael Keller

06-02-2008, 07:03 PM

I really could care less about Vintage.

I just think it's awesome that a Homelands card got restricted.

dahcmai

06-02-2008, 07:31 PM

Well, I am happy I sold off my foil Merchant Scrolls a while back. I had quit playing Vintage and ditched them. I do feel for the Vintage players who don't have Legacy to fall back on. Not everywhere has Legacy. It's going to be rough going for a bit till they figure out good counters for the obvious "good" deck out there. Shop decks are going to have a heyday for a bit. Dredge at least still has plenty of hate for it.

I had not joined the source in time for the 1.5 split into legacy and miss the joke behind that, but I can imagine. There sure is some old steam coming out in this thread. One thing though, they are sure whining a lot for a miniscule loss. I mean, sure you lose a lot of good blue search, but hasn't blue been dominating for how long? I barely remember a time when it wasn't intergral. It's not like Impulse, Serum Visions, and the like aren't around anymore anyway. It's a little overhyped as usual with every ban/restrict list that comes out. I can even see the Ponder argument.

Personally, I think it's about time one of the other colors showed it's face again. White has been like the retarded kid who lived in the 1930's stuck in the basement. Green, well...poor green, maybe Goyf will bring you into vintage finally. Red, ok, screw you gobbos. Black waits in the background as usual saying "I am Necro, unrestrict me, it won't hurt....much...".

I have to admit, I will be amused if Parfait makes a comeback. I loved that deck and got bashed so hard for playing it. Granted, it was before the storm decks really took over, but I still got guff even if I won with it.

I do like the idea of getting my scrolls back for cheap.

You know, I do wish they would use that watch list they used to have where they would post stuff that was getting a little up there in power level. A "Watch List" would be a lot better than a "Watch This!" list.

Brushwagg

06-02-2008, 07:53 PM

Brainstorm seriously?? WOW!!! Ponder? Surprised that they left them Portent. I hope this is not a indication of what is coming for Legacy. Damn I'm glad the lists got split when they did.

DeathwingZERO

06-02-2008, 08:32 PM

It's damn obvious to any Vintage player right now that the two big hitters to look into are going to be Workshop and Bazaar as far as the next in line on the chopping block.

Blue based control decks just took a HUGE hit here. They lost 6 blue spells to pitch to Force, and 3 of them were instant speed hand sculptors. GAT, Gush Storm, etc lost their engine (damn near completely), and Ichorid is fine.

This means that we're going to have Ichorid running amok, and nearly no issues to any versions of MUD out there. Oh, and guess what other crowd favorite just came back into the light from this? Dragon. Yep, Dragon lost nothing, and it's still arguably as aggressive and even more disruptive than Ichorid ever will be. In fact, I'd argue to say these will be the top 2 combo decks in the format, as storm decks just got it right in the balls.

Personally, I'm VERY interested in the next couple months. I predict we will see top 8s having nothing but Workshop, Bazaar, and Grave Trolls. Every once in a while we'll see a deck without any of them, but I'm putting my money on this being the next 3-6 months of Vintage.

Anusien

06-02-2008, 08:40 PM

THEchubbymuffin

06-02-2008, 08:42 PM

I don't play much vintage but my hunch it the next few top 8's will be shops with MAINDECK leyline of the voids and alot of ichorid.

BreathWeapon

06-02-2008, 09:00 PM

I haven't seen a viable Island.dec that isn't running Phyrexian Dreadnoughts or Oath of Druids, I doubt Mana Drains are going to have an impact unless you want to brush the dust off Intuition/Accumulated Knowledge or Exalted Angels and Skeletal Scrying, no thanks.

@Scrumdog

If they ban Bazaar of Baghdad and Mishra's Workshop, then Vintage would just become a shitty Legacy, I even doubt Brainstorm stays restricted for long.

The DCI fucked up, there's no rationalizing their decision.

Jak

06-02-2008, 09:06 PM

I am hoping that Impulse becomes the new hot card. 4 Japanese Impulse may make me some cash!

Edit- I also wanted to say that this does make me scared. What if they do the same to Legacy? I fear that they could randomly fuck up the format and totally make all my cards crap.

nastynate

06-02-2008, 09:06 PM

I don't play much vintage but my hunch it the next few top 8's will be shops with MAINDECK leyline of the voids and alot of ichorid.

Control Slaver will probably be the top dog. It already eats shop decks alive, and it can side-board ichorid hate in sufficient quantity to beat them too. Yes it loses brainstorm, but it can run sensei's divining top instead (which coincidentally has pretty nice synergy with welder and thirst for knowledge). Toss in main-deck counterbalance (and side-board answers to the soon-to-be prevalent null rod) to beat the fish-like decks and you've got a recipe for success. Control slaver even has a built-in answer to the painter's grindstone combo (goblin welder). Worried about belcher decks making a comeback? Control-Slaver has no significant problems beating them either.

MattH

06-02-2008, 09:40 PM

For your entertainment, #themanadrain, Ground Zero:

lol, if a bunch of people dropping their jaws and saying "holy shit" (on IRC!) is the best you can come up with, 6-1-08 is making 9-1-04 look even worse by comparison.

http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=35878.0

Yeah, there's a few people who went nuts (razvan at #13, sean1i0 at #35), but overall the response has mostly been: shock of course, optimism or concerned worrying (almost uniformly the former from the Vintage old-timers), a little sadness, but not OMG THE SKY IS FALLING/FUCK FUCK FUCKING FUCK/I'M QUITTING WHO'S WITH ME. And for everyone one of those, there's someone who says, "Hell yes, now I might play Vintage again!"

And yeah, this round was a lot less drastic than 9-1-04 was, but if you're going to play that card then I fully expect you to first call out posts like this (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=239035&postcount=7) and Mr. Nightmare @ #185 (http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=35878.180) for being full of it.

Bardo

06-02-2008, 09:40 PM

You know, it kinda chokes me up that Legacy is the only supported format where you can play 4x Brainstorm. Man, I fucking love that card.

I just wish the DCI will leave Legacy alone. Fuck Land Tax if it means that Brainstorm (or freaking Ponder) goes up on block for the possible axe. Though, I'm pretty biased on this one.

For everyone one of those, there's someone who says, "Hell yes, now I might play Vintage again!"

I've been following that thread on and off today, but it's good to hear that cool heads are prevailing.

In all fairness to the "sky is falling 1.5 crowd [9/1/04]," and I'm certainly not defending those involved, but the changes were a hell of a lot more drastic. Vintage just lost one long-term tournament staples; one broken card that was essentially "printed" with the removal of power-level errata, one card that was restricted until relatively recently (after being restricted in 2003?), a 2-mana blue tutor that could find a lot of busted bombs, and another functional Brainstorm-replacement.

For its scale, the T1/1.5 separation in Sept. '04 was a lot more a dramatic in terms of the sheer number of changes. Again, not that I care or am defending anything here, just pointing out the differences. Legacy, IMO, is definitely better for its growing pains; hopefully the same will be true for Legacy, post 6/1/08.

technogeek5000

06-02-2008, 09:50 PM

Lol, this is pretty funny.

I mostly took this as a: STOP BITCHING ABOUT LAND TAX OR ELSE. It seems to have had that effect as some people in this thread have actually shown fear for the DCI.

Sanguine Voyeur

06-02-2008, 09:51 PM

I wonder if they actually want people to play Vintage. This may add new players, but it could alienate current players.
You know, it kinda chokes me up that Legacy is the only supported format where you can play 4x Brainstorm. Man, I fucking love that card.Typically, having a favorite card means unhappiness. There will always be limitations. Mind's Desire is my favorite, how'd that work out for me?

Sims

06-02-2008, 11:01 PM

lol, if a bunch of people dropping their jaws and saying "holy shit" (on IRC!) is the best you can come up with, 6-1-08 is making 9-1-04 look even worse by comparison.

http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=35878.0

Yeah, there's a few people who went nuts (razvan at #13, sean1i0 at #35), but overall the response has mostly been: shock of course, optimism or concerned worrying (almost uniformly the former from the Vintage old-timers), a little sadness, but not OMG THE SKY IS FALLING/FUCK FUCK FUCKING FUCK/I'M QUITTING WHO'S WITH ME. And for everyone one of those, there's someone who says, "Hell yes, now I might play Vintage again!"

And yeah, this round was a lot less drastic than 9-1-04 was, but if you're going to play that card then I fully expect you to first call out posts like this (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=239035&postcount=7) and Mr. Nightmare @ #185 (http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=35878.180) for being full of it.

Hasn't been much of it, no. But there has been some, and there's also been some "Fuck it, why the hell don't we make our own list if they can't get it right and think brainstorm is a threat."

I stand by my post. The Vintage players may not have gotten themselves trumped-on in anywhere near the scale that we did, but there was quite a good amount of deckbuilding that was invalidated by this announcement in either case. The point remains: How does it feel?

Illissius

06-02-2008, 11:03 PM

MattH: You're assuming I was trying to make some kind of point. I just thought it was amusing, especially how the timestamp goes from 5:59 to 6:00 and everyone's head explodes. I think Zeke has the right attitude there btw.

Anyone have IRC logs from 9/04?

Lol, this is pretty funny.

I mostly took this as a: STOP BITCHING ABOUT LAND TAX OR ELSE. It seems to have had that effect as some people in this thread have actually shown fear for the DCI.

I find your theory compelling and wish to subscribe to your newsletter.

Artowis

06-02-2008, 11:30 PM

The point remains: How does it feel?

Speaking for all the guys on Reflection as a whole? Meh. Some work was lost, but now we get to build decks where our first set of cards aren't:
4 Gush
4 Ponder
4 Merchant Scroll
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Fastbond

So you know, there is that. Like shockingly opposite from the party line of some that Vintage was in a golden age, a decent number of people were pretty annoyed that all our shit was the same. Those people might now come back. Some of the flying off the handle was just at the amount of changes we got hit with at once, a day later and things for most people don't look that bad.

MattH

06-02-2008, 11:49 PM

Hasn't been much of it, no. But there has been some, and there's also been some "Fuck it, why the hell don't we make our own list if they can't get it right and think brainstorm is a threat."

I stand by my post. The Vintage players may not have gotten themselves trumped-on in anywhere near the scale that we did, but there was quite a good amount of deckbuilding that was invalidated by this announcement in either case. The point remains: How does it feel?
Context is needed here.

1. No one of any consequence has blown up. Most of those who have are pretty new to Vintage if their postcounts of < 100 are any indicator (only a rough measure, but not wholly egregious). From 'name' players on 'name' teams, the response has been nearly unanimously, "Wow...Didn't expect that. Now, let's get to work, it's a brave new world!" Even when they don't fully agree with each of the five decisions, people are taking it in stride.

To be fair, in Sep04 the worst responses were also from lesser posters here on MTS, but there's no avoiding that at every level, there was a lot more bitching then than now (even after controlling for the proportionally lesser disruption).

2. Calls for the Vintage community in general, and occasionally TMD in specific, to create and enforce their own B&R list and play league have been a staple response for any change to any aspect of Vintage Magic for the better part of a decade now (it even showed up in response to the new card face, I think, not just B&R changes). It's definitely NOT something that correlates to this uniquely high level of B&R change.

So, how does it feel? It looks like a majority of Vintage players on TMD either are excited to try something new or are more or less indifferent. Almost no one is crying over any "invalidated deckbuilding work". There was more wailing and gnashing of teeth over freakin' Shahrazad, for chrissake.

kirdape3

06-03-2008, 12:17 AM

The only one who I'd respect that complained at the Brainstorm axeing was LSV (aka Luis Scott-Vargas, aka 2006 National Champion, aka waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay better than most) - he said that Brainstorm was such a skill-tester and that it's restriction would make Vintage games more random.

Also known as: I've been bashing idiots with this card forever and I don't want to stop, so don't let me stop bashing idiots with this card plskthxbye.

To be fair, this has been the largest explosion of work on our team forums in ages. It's even dragged such stalwarts as jpmeyer back to the fray.

m03

06-03-2008, 12:20 AM

Meh. Some work was lost, but now we have to build decks where our first set of cards aren't:
...

There, fixed it for you.

So you know, there is that. Like shockingly opposite from the party line of some that Vintage was in a golden age, a decent number of people were pretty annoyed that all our shit was the same.

I dunno, atleast half of every modern Vintage deck looks pretty much the same as it did whenever I got out of Type 1 (and Magic) back in 1997. The current restrictions haven't changed that.

06-03-2008, 12:27 AM

What's really interesting is that this sets back Vintage to a point when I still played and followed it on a regular basis. I stopped playing it when I took over duties for The Source, but when I was still playing Vintage, the best decks were stuff like Hulk, TNT, Keeper, Dragon, UrPhid, etc. Hell, Stax wasn't even really a deck yet. It was in it's baby stages being developed by idiots like Psyduck. Those decks did not run Brainstorms, if they did, it was like 1-2 (I think the last Keeper list I played ran 2 Brainstorms). Merchant Scroll hardly saw any play at all, and Gush was restricted anyway. It's sort of neat, but at the same time fucked up, to see the format get pushed back 4 years, but then throw Ichorid into the mix.

Given that I just started following Vintage again in like, March, these changes make me feel right at home in Vintage. I know I'm not alone, because a lot of the TMD regulars who were around when I frequently posted over there feel the same way.

Dont_Stop_Believin

06-03-2008, 12:58 AM

So what do people think will become the blue cantrips of choice now? Opt, Sleight of Hand, Serum Visions, or maybe even Impulse?

Artowis

06-03-2008, 01:20 AM

There, fixed it for you.

I dunno, atleast half of every modern Vintage deck looks pretty much the same as it did whenever I got out of Type 1 (and Magic) back in 1997. The current restrictions haven't changed that.

Didn't really fix anything, but uh, ok.

As for the other thing, I'm pretty sure Dredge looks nothing like Stax which looks nothing like Fish which doesn't share much with CS, etc. All of which look to be playable now.

mercenarybdu

06-03-2008, 01:55 AM

Well less money to spend on a deck for vintage then. At least for the long term i suppose until they decide to do some more tinkering around with the Vintage list. The last thing that was added to the Vintage list previously was Gifts.

BreathWeapon

06-03-2008, 01:55 AM

You know, I'm coming around to Brainstorms restriction, I don't think Gush, Flash or Ponder deserved it, but there are a lot of replacements for Brainstorm that are functional. I think Careful Study, Intuition and Deep Analysis powered Goblin Welder Control is going to be really hot.

m03

06-03-2008, 04:41 AM

Didn't really fix anything, but uh, ok.

Wow. Note the bold text in the modified quote next time. Clearly not a Slashdot reader ;)

As for the other thing, I'm pretty sure Dredge looks nothing like Stax which looks nothing like Fish which doesn't share much with CS, etc. All of which look to be playable now.

I'll grant that Ichorid is different, but the others have all the usual suspects in them. Unless I've missed the lists that shun Moxen, Time Walk, Ancestral Recall, Strip Mine, Wasteland, et al.

Stax and Ichorid were playable before, atleast according to the stats I saw earlier.

Artowis

06-03-2008, 05:12 AM

Wow. Note the bold text in the modified quote next time. Clearly not a Slashdot reader ;)

I'll grant that Ichorid is different, but the others have all the usual suspects in them. Unless I've missed the lists that shun Moxen, Time Walk, Ancestral Recall, Strip Mine, Wasteland, et al.

Stax and Ichorid were playable before, atleast according to the stats I saw earlier.

I saw it clearly enough, I just don't see how you actually changed the connotation of the word I had previously used. Who the fuck reads slashdot? 4chan.

And I mean, yeah obv some of the cards like Black Lotus and company are just going to see play in everything till the end of time. They are just far too good not to be played outside of a really weird strategy variant (like dredge! hah) . However there's a pretty huge difference in deck construction between playing with the normal cavalcade of restricted stuff and being forced to play a specific engine to go along with your restricted silliness as well.

Nightmare

06-03-2008, 09:07 AM

lol, if a bunch of people dropping their jaws and saying "holy shit" (on IRC!) is the best you can come up with, 6-1-08 is making 9-1-04 look even worse by comparison.

http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=35878.0

Yeah, there's a few people who went nuts (razvan at #13, sean1i0 at #35), but overall the response has mostly been: shock of course, optimism or concerned worrying (almost uniformly the former from the Vintage old-timers), a little sadness, but not OMG THE SKY IS FALLING/FUCK FUCK FUCKING FUCK/I'M QUITTING WHO'S WITH ME. And for everyone one of those, there's someone who says, "Hell yes, now I might play Vintage again!"

And yeah, this round was a lot less drastic than 9-1-04 was, but if you're going to play that card then I fully expect you to first call out posts like this (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=239035&postcount=7) and Mr. Nightmare @ #185 (http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=35878.180) for being full of it.Honestly, I just think the whole situation is funny. The fact that you think I'm calling you guys out, as well as the fact that you actually are calling me out on it - it's just too much. Get over yourself dude.

FoolofaTook

06-03-2008, 10:00 AM

You know, it kinda chokes me up that Legacy is the only supported format where you can play 4x Brainstorm. Man, I fucking love that card.

You can make a valid argument that Brainstorm is as strong as Ancestral Recall.

It doesn't give you +2 cards for 1 mana the way AR does, however it denies you none of the cards you would have seen from AR and it allows for many more defensive plays, including choosing to not play a card you would otherwise have to play if it were in your hand early.

Card advantage is such a huge part of the game that it's hard not to consider the +2 cards effect from AR to trump everything else Brainstorm does better, however I don't think that argument would necessarily stand up if you looked at the overall picture.

Restricting Brainstorm was a reasonable call. Ponder I'm still wondering about since it does not have some of the defensive characteristics that Brainstorm does.

Aleksandr

06-03-2008, 10:01 AM

The Epic Tale of Vintage
~ Screen Play by Harlequin

ActI:

The Mob: Holy Crap I hate Card-X, Heres a Huge list of reasons why!
Top-8: Relax it's not that bad
The Mob: you just wait and see, they will restrict card-x and we will all laugh at you. You just wait until the 1st... Ahhh hahahaha

The DCI: ..... no changes
The Mob: /cry
Top-8: /tiny-violin

~ Repeat ActI like 2-5 times

ActII

The Hopefuls: This time... this time they will change!
The Mob: The DCI doesn't care, won't care, and never has cared. Besides were comfortable the way the format is now. This truely is the golden age of vintage in perfect harmony of balance of and luck

The DCI: SURPRIZE!! /slap

The Hopefuls: Hahaha Great, now I can play my pet-deck again! I support these changes.
The Mob: OMG-STFU-KTHXBBQ. Its the end of the world, Don't you see!? Here's a list of 1000 reasons why the DCI is stupid....
The Mob: ... In summary the format is much more about luck now than skill. So We Quit, I'm taking my cards and going home to play world of warcraft.
The people who actually did quit from the last R/B Update: Oh damn! This looks new and interesting, I'm going to start playing again!
Crazy Eyes: Following this logic let's just ban every card other than Swamp and Relentless Rats!

The Mob: Wait! I have an idea, lets make our own B/R list that ignore these changes.
TMD: That will NEVER work. Not in a million years.
The Mob: who cares, some of us - lets break off and agrue about -that- for a while, and prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that it will never work in a million years.
TMD: You have fun with that. And don't worry about making a mess we've got our bold-red ink and lock buttons ready.
The Mob: The rest of us, lets start a petition ~
"Dear DCI,
Colectively, we Hate you. We hope that you get attacked by bees, and anyone who comes to sees you and trys to help is also attacked by bees. You are stupid and smell bad. Here is a list of 1000 reasons why we think you are stupid.
Love,
~The Mob
PS - you won't get another dime outa me until you make a change... not that I every buy anything from you anyway"

The Mob: There that'll show them... wait nm we quit anyway no one cares anymore anyway.
Top-8: Later! Hrmmm.. now I have to come up with a deck to play. I can't play X, Y or Z... so I guess I just go back to card-W. Good ol' W...
~next week~
The Mob: Damnit! WOW sucks I want to play magic again!
Top-8: Cool with me, lets see if you can beat D0u3le_Yuu.Dec
The Mob: F*ck Card-W, that's way overrated. Besides we have all this new design space now!
~they play~
Top-8: Beat you again! That makes the score X-0-2. I'm in Top-8 again!
The Mob: Yeah well, its only because W is so stupidly O.P. and broken, and easy to win with, and requires no skill. It should be banned. You just wait and see, the next B/R list comes out on the 1st and I can't immagine they won't ban W. You just wait and see!!

...

~ Repeat from the begining until the rapture...

It happened with Trinisphere
It happened with Gifts
Its going to happen with BS/Ponder

Brehn

06-03-2008, 10:15 AM

lol'd

razvan

06-03-2008, 11:23 AM

Yeah, there's a few people who went nuts (razvan at #13, sean1i0 at #35), but overall the response has mostly been: shock of course, optimism or concerned worrying (almost uniformly the former from the Vintage old-timers), a little sadness, but not OMG THE SKY IS FALLING/FUCK FUCK FUCKING FUCK/I'M QUITTING WHO'S WITH ME. And for everyone one of those, there's someone who says, "Hell yes, now I might play Vintage again!"
I hardly think my post, which in all of it’s entirety is: “... yeah, sure, let's reset the format completely, that's good for it.” qualifies as “FUCK FUCK FUCK I’M QUITTING”, or going nuts.

You missed my earlier post of “BRAINSTORM? are those people fucking stupid?” which is #1… yey, first in a legendary thread?

You should also expect people to be shocked and reply as such in the first 10 damn minutes of the most sweeping changes in the format, excluding, of course, the urza’s/6th situation. So… find better examples .

Anyway, hello “the source”.

m03

06-03-2008, 11:25 AM

I think I most disappointed by the fact they didn't unrestrict/unban anything, either in Vintage or Legacy. It looks like we'll be debating Land Tax again in a few months.

I'm looking forward to the day that I can play Elf-Clamp and still lose to every current deck in the format.

I just don't see how you actually changed the connotation of the word I had previously used.

Sigh.

Fossil4182

06-03-2008, 01:39 PM

While I am somewhat sad that nothing was unrestricted in Legacy, I can say that I understand the reasons why the format will remain unchanged for the next coming months. Christopher Coppola recently posted an article on Star City Games that covers both the state of Legacy and also several decks that are arguably some of the better decks in the format but don't see much play. The format is healthy as it stands and doesn't need to be overhauled with changes to the B/R list. In one respect there is an easy reason to understand why nothing should have been added: there was no need to ban something because nothing is breaking the format. However, its also difficult to understand why some things are being removed from the list. Land Tax, Dreamhalls ect all have reasonable cases as to why they could come off of the B/R list.

I think the reasons for not removing stuff from the B/R list could be any one of the following. First, they could use the same logic as not adding anything to list. If the format doesn't need fixing, don't mess with it. While innovation is nice and healthy, the risk of destabilizing is always a scary thing. Second, is that perhaps in the future with WotC attempting to redo the face of MtG in a lot of ways, maybe some of the new sets will aim to more eternal formats or that some of the cards that are coming out will have an impact on the future of the format. Another possible reason is because of the massive overhaul done to the Vintage format. There is a discussion with 6 pages of responses on a Legacy based forum when the changes had nothing to do with Legacy! My guess is that Vintage will see some players depart the format and possibly the game and some will shift to other formats. If they shift to Legacy as result of the overhaul done with Vintage, the format remains stable enough for new players to enter from an older format because there are already established decks, yet still room to grow and access to a lot of the cards that the format just lost.

At any rate, these are just a couple of thoughts I had concerning the B/R list. I would say that seeing Land Tax and Dreamhalls come off would be nice. Heck even Mindtwist could come off the list in a pretty reasonable sense.

thefreakaccident

06-03-2008, 09:10 PM

raharu

06-03-2008, 09:54 PM

I am in total shock as to the changes... the format has lost a lot of the power it once had, and what set it apart.

And to think... I was getting back into vintage again before this... now the format is just waaay too different for me to join up now! (study a format before jumping in, its' a good idea!).
Seriously? I mean, Merchant Scroll had it coming, as did Gush, as did Flash, as did Brainstorm, and Ponder was just a logical decision.

I don't see why you wouldn't like the new format, as there's soooo much more design space now.

mercenarybdu

06-03-2008, 09:58 PM

Gives other colored decks the chance to make it up there other than just a Blue coded deck to always be on top with tons of busted up artifacts. At least Hulk Flash wouldn't be the same with the play set and searches to back it up for fast pace action in gaining ground.

So what is to come next for Vintage? Grim Tutor? Cruel Tutor? those two tutors are still running aorund in play sets although they are weaker versions of the originals that are on the Vintage list.

If they do that, more space to push around with design space in that format.

thefreakaccident

06-03-2008, 10:01 PM

I liked flash as a deck (hardly as broken in that format), gush was only good in GAT, but now it is unplayable, merchant scroll I can see, but brainstorm and ponder?! Srsly?!

Blue in general got totally fucked over, loosing its' strongest combo, and its' best draw spells...

Now what draw does the format have?

1 ponder
1 brainstorm
1 ancestral recall

This seems lacking, even with tutors.

All I see this doing is making ichorid more of a force than it already is.

Wallace

06-03-2008, 10:04 PM

I am in total shock as to the changes... the format has lost a lot of the power it once had, and what set it apart.

And to think... I was getting back into vintage again before this... now the format is just waaay too different for me to join up now! (study a format before jumping in, its' a good idea!).

Right because you can't still use: Ancestral Recall, Time Walk, All the Moxen, Black Lotus, Mishra's Workshop, Mind's Desire, Demonic Tutor, Tolarian Academy, Tinker and Bazaar of Bagdad... I don't play vintage but from what I know of it, I think this is a good thing for a format that has been stagnant for so long.

06-03-2008, 10:11 PM

Gush was only good in GAT

This proves you don't know anything about Type 1.

m03

06-03-2008, 10:16 PM

Right because you can't still use: Ancestral Recall, Time Walk, All the Moxen, Black Lotus, Mishra's Workshop, Mind's Desire, Demonic Tutor, Tolarian Academy, Tinker and Bazaar of Bagdad.

Brainstorm/Ponder sort of provided the same thing they do in Legacy: consistency. A Lotus and 5 Moxen does not change that.

I don't play vintage but from what I know of it, I think this is a good thing for a format that has been stagnant for so long.

Everyone I've talked to recently that plays Vintage has said that the format is pretty much the opposite of stagnant, and has been for quite some time.

Vintage seems to have atleast as much variety of top decks as Legacy...possibly moreso.

gush was only good in GAT

It was in several decks. The Gushbond engine was even in Next Level Doomsday, which was the deck I was trying to pick up...sort of a Vintage equivalent to Fetchland Tendrils.

irrelevant

06-03-2008, 10:26 PM

I actually like the changes i think good development will come from it. As well as letting some of the "other" good decks have a turn. I had just finished building hulk flash for worlds and now its time to have fun and find something else to play.

Omega

06-03-2008, 10:44 PM

brainstorm was clearly one of the strongest card still unrestricted. But imo, Gush/Scroll would have been enough

oh well, the wise DCI decided otherwise, and there's nothing we can do about it :)

But Legacy is still 4 brainstorm legal... you know what this means? Join us!

Robert

thefreakaccident

06-03-2008, 11:36 PM

This proves you don't know anything about Type 1.

What? Besides painters, and Doomsday?

Seriously, it was the most competative deck that utilized the card, and most of the current competative decks don't or cannot utilize the card properly.

The card was good, but wasn't overused and wasn't broken compared to some of the things the format still has access to.

DalkonCledwin

06-03-2008, 11:52 PM

question... how much is my Gush now worth?

mercenarybdu

06-04-2008, 12:04 AM

question... how much is my Gush now worth?

$0.50-$5 for a few copies of the card. My location offers them for $1 or two with sales tax.

Foil ones are still pretty hard to come by as they fetch even more as always.

TheAardvark

06-04-2008, 12:39 AM

What? Besides painters, and Doomsday?

Seriously, it was the most competative deck that utilized the card, and most of the current competative decks don't or cannot utilize the card properly.

The card was good, but wasn't overused and wasn't broken compared to some of the things the format still has access to.

Tyrant Oath and Tropical Storm would like a word with you.

And the fact that this is Gush's SECOND restriction should also point out that your last statement is pretty uninformed, especially since most believed it never should have been unrestricted in the first place.

But ok.

KillemallCFH

06-04-2008, 07:03 AM

question... how much is my Gush now worth?Gushes were a $0.50 common before, and that probably won't change. Foil ones, however, may go down in price (They were fetching ~$25 or so before).

DeathwingZERO

06-04-2008, 08:58 AM

Given the format, Brainstorm is more powerful than Ancestral. The main three reasons are this:

1- Brainstorm still allows you to SEE 3 new cards. It doesn't matter if they stay, as CA means nothing in that format, seeing as 45 out of 60 cards tend to be bombs or enablers. Just noticing a fresh batch of spells tends to turn the game drastically, and even sub-par opening hands turn to game breakers when you get to see those extra 3 cards on the spot.

2- Brainstorm (unlike AR) makes Duress, Thoughtseize and Therapy useless. When so much discard is nullified by the fact that you can literally play around it by just having some blue cards in your deck, it also completely disables pro-active game plans. This means that pretty much the only way to stop your opponent with a blue source on the table is to counter their spell. This is both a hindering to control decks, as well as annoying the hell out of people with obsessively long decisions to make.

3- Not necessarily a huge "bonus", but it's not Misdirectable. Seeing that the average power level of the 3 cards the player will see tends to be "good-busted-busted", it's typically worth the 2 cards tossed to keep your opponent from their 3 cards, and get them yourself. While I'm not certain how many still play MisD, I know a few years back it was a huge worry of mine with Slaver and Oath builds.

Yes, the card is skill intensive. It's not the absolute bomb that Ancestral is based on draw power, but it's utility for protection puts it at least level with Ancestral in Vintage's setting. Again, Ponder got the axe because wizards knew it'd just replace Brainstorm for functionality, but anyone saying BS didn't deserve it REALLY needed to do more research on the decklists of the past few years. If people were saying Scroll getting hit was fine because it was essentially DT, why is Brainstorm being roughly the equivalent of AR not?

razvan

06-04-2008, 09:18 AM

Er... um... no.

1) 45 of the 60 are not enablers. Unless you somehow ignore the 20-25 mana sources (out of which 1-2 are bombs), 4 brainstorm, 4-10 (FoW/Drain/MisD), Duress, and CA cards. Bombs (define bomb) are limited to a few cards in most decks.

2) Not necessarily. It can, and that was one of the great strengths, but sometimes, you can't just wait. Yes, you go first, play island-go, and your opponent duresses you, you can put your two strongest cards on top. It does not nullify anything. There are other proactive strategies. Chalice, Spheres, hell, even crucible cutting off the mana. And that is just ONE deck.

3) This is true, but irrelevant in comparing them. They are two different cards. Much like duress and thoughtseize are different. Thoughtseize is a lot more powerful than duress, but people lead with Duress. Don't read into it too much.

Van Phanel

06-04-2008, 09:34 AM

I'm looking forward to the day that I can play Elf-Clamp and still lose to every current deck in the format.

You might want to see the Top8 from our local 29-participant Vintage on May 24th:

1.

Anton Karlinski

CoN Elves

4 Scullclamp
2 Quirion Druid
4 Llanowar Elves
2 Caller of the Claw
4 Birchlore Ranger
3 Wirewood Symbiote
3 Wirewood Hivemaster
2 Fyndhorn Elves
1 Viridian Shaman
4 Goblinbombardement
4 Wirewood Herald
4 Priest of Titania
2 Elvish Scrapper
1 Imperious Perfect
1 Heritage Druid
1 Crop Rotation
4 Windswept Heath
3 Taiga
8 Forest
3 Gaea's Cradle

SB:

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Pyrostatic Pillar
4 Pithing Needle
3 Tormods Crypt

2. Tyrant Oath
3. Draw7 TPS
4. Fish
5. GAT
6. Suicide Black (surprising what a first-turn Hyppie can still achieve in Type 1)
7. Masknought
8. Tropical Storm (Gush-Long)

After round 2 it was hilarious to watch Anton's games. People were like: You play first-turn Llanowar Elves? Um ... Well ... I'll Force it.
It didn't hurt when he comboed out Tyrant Oath on turn 4 past a Force of Will either.

m03

06-04-2008, 11:15 AM

You might want to see the Top8 from our local 29-participant Vintage on May 24th:

I was referring to being able to use it in Legacy, but that is hilarious. I think elves would be/are easier to beat in Legacy due to the sideboarding strategies.

I've playtested against an otherwise-legal (except for Skullclamp of course) Legacy Elf-Clamp deck just to see how it would fair against the field....it didn't do so well.

MattH

06-04-2008, 06:49 PM

Honestly, I just think the whole situation is funny. The fact that you think I'm calling you guys out, as well as the fact that you actually are calling me out on it - it's just too much. Get over yourself dude.
Heh, I see you are well-versed in the ancient art of the weakest defense ever: "I Was Just Kidding!"-fu, the modern-day last refuge of the e-scoundrel.

Face-saving non-apology accepted. <3

DeathwingZERO

06-04-2008, 08:22 PM

1) 45 of the 60 are not enablers.

2) Not necessarily. It can, and that was one of the great strengths, but sometimes, you can't just wait. Yes, you go first, play island-go, and your opponent duresses you, you can put your two strongest cards on top. It does not nullify anything. There are other proactive strategies. Chalice, Spheres, hell, even crucible cutting off the mana. And that is just ONE deck.

3) This is true, but irrelevant in comparing them.

Cutting back just for space purposes.

1) I'll agree the majority of the decks now won't be 45 of either, but a lot of the decks I played it was. Tendrils SX, TPS, etc weren't very rich in just lands, so artificial mana sources could very well be listed under enablers. However, point conceded, but I still argue that in combination of the singleton Ancestral and Will, 4 more times of seeing 3 new cards is still giving too much access.

2) As far as I can tell, the only proactive strategy in Vintage now is MUD variants. This is kind of the point I was going for. Discard in itself is pretty worthless in the face of nearly every deck packing blue seeing 4 Brainstorms. At the same time though, I will admit that discard in general is a poor proactive strategy for Vintage. But cutting 3 Brainstorms may give it a little more of a chance to show up again.

3)It's irrelevant unless discussing specific lists. I know a number of times in Dragon, Tendrils, etc that I would have much rather had the ability to keep my opponent from getting the cards, but again, this was during 2004-2006 time, so Oath, Slaver, etc were out in force. I hated having to rely on AR as a crutch hoping it wouldn't make their MisD's live.

Either way though, I say hitting it was the right decision. As restricted it's going to disable some current game plans, but it's not outright ruining decks. If anything, it's giving the card the credit it deserves.

razvan

06-05-2008, 02:24 AM

1) well, that is the format. it's not legacy, it's vintage. there's a ton of powerful cards that allow you to see more than just 3 cards, and some are even unrestricted.

2) not necessarily. steve menendian won a scg with an 8-duress build of GAT. he credits it quite often for the win, and spends quite a bit of time discussing the hows and whens of duressing. workshop decks HAVE to be proactive, because they have (often) zero ways to be reactive.

3) AR is the one card you can't just throw out. sometimes, you have to throw out a will or something even in the probability of a FoW, or as bait, but AR is special, due to MisD, as we discussed.

it ruined quite a few decks, actually. smennen discusses it in the article.

and yes, i am not saying the card is anything but amazing. we won't disagree on that one at all :). we shall see if it was a right choice.

the one thing that does scare me (and lots of people will argue otherwise) is the slippery slope argument: is it done? is nothing safe?

DeathwingZERO

06-05-2008, 08:29 AM

I honestly think it'll be over unless the scare of Bazaar and Workshop being too powerful, since blue lost a lot of options and outs (so to speak) due to the loss of both good tutor effects and hand sculpting.

Other than that, I believe the format to be relatively stable, even after the loss. While I would be fine with Brainstorm and Ponder being in a bit longer just to test the theory that Scroll and Flash was good enough, I have a feeling even by September the DCI would want to look into Brainstorm again.

Part of me really hates losing Brainstorm AND Ponder at the same time, but part of me thinks it's a very good test for the format to recover from the loss without completely destabilizing itself.

EDIT: Oh, and is that article written by Steven you were referring to a Premium article, or an open one? I don't have Premium membership, but would love to at least get a grasp of it if it was.

goobafish

06-05-2008, 09:03 AM

DeathwingZERO

06-05-2008, 09:32 AM

All Menendian articles are premium. I was extremelly upset by these changes and debated quitting the game over it. Took me overnight to cool off and realize that the format is going to be fun. All my favorite decks are now playable, and it is open for inovation. I am very excited for Chicago.

To an extent, even the remote chance of quitting is a huge overstatement to what happened. Even the separation of the lists was more drastic for Vintage, even though it wasn't for restrictions that happened.

Basically anybody even on the fence about this being terrible for the format is just looking at their favorite pet decks being obsoleted. Yes losing Brainstorm and Ponder sucks, but Flash, Scroll and Gush had it coming.

Maybe now there's gonna be a little less relying on blue in general. I think that's mostly what they were going for.

goobafish

06-05-2008, 09:40 AM

To an extent, even the remote chance of quitting is a huge overstatement to what happened. Even the separation of the lists was more drastic for Vintage, even though it wasn't for restrictions that happened.

Basically anybody even on the fence about this being terrible for the format is just looking at their favorite pet decks being obsoleted. Yes losing Brainstorm and Ponder sucks, but Flash, Scroll and Gush had it coming.

Maybe now there's gonna be a little less relying on blue in general. I think that's mostly what they were going for.

Don't know how it is a huge overstatement, I know of a few people that are quitting, and some are HEAVILY invested in mtg (all beta, all jap foil).

FoolofaTook

06-05-2008, 10:51 AM

Don't know how it is a huge overstatement, I know of a few people that are quitting, and some are HEAVILY invested in mtg (all beta, all jap foil).

It is hard for me to believe that Vintage is going to lose any number of players over the restricting of a couple of cards that cost less than $5 apiece.

As many other people above have pointed out big blue has had an absolute stranglehold on Magic from virtually the beginning of organized play. Doing things that lessen that stranglehold while still allowing for a wide variety of blue-based decks is probably a very positive thing for the format overall.

If we ever get to the point where blue is not an auto-include in 75%+ of the Vintage decks then maybe people will be justified in thinking it has been hit too hard. Honestly I've never understood why people enjoyed playing a format in which extreme randomness predominates but to each their own.

goobafish

06-05-2008, 11:09 AM

It is hard for me to believe that Vintage is going to lose any number of players over the restricting of a couple of cards that cost less than $5 apiece.

That simply isnt the case for a some vintage players. If you had foil versions of all the cards that were restricted (I had all except gushes), the cards were worth 350-400. And if they were Japanese, it is in the thousands. It is not because the price of their cards were affected, it is because they think the format is ruined (which I do not believe it is).

m03

06-05-2008, 11:45 AM

Doing things that lessen that stranglehold while still allowing for a wide variety of blue-based decks is probably a very positive thing for the format overall.

I don't know about that. This is comparable to Brainstorm, Ponder, and Lion's Eye Diamond being banned in Legacy, but nothing being unbanned. If that happened, would you say that it was a positive thing for the format?

Do you think people would quit Legacy if that happened?

That's another thing to consider. If you make changes that cause large portions of the player base to quit the game, then was it really a decision that made the format stronger?

If we ever get to the point where blue is not an auto-include in 75%+ of the Vintage decks then maybe people will be justified in thinking it has been hit too hard.

It is an integral part of the format, and at the very least, Ancestral Recall and Time Walk will always have a home in 95% of decks. It's been that way since before Brainstorm was printed.

Honestly I've never understood why people enjoyed playing a format in which extreme randomness predominates but to each their own.

Not sure what you mean by extreme randomness. Brainstom and Ponder helped consistency, so the restrictions would actually make that worse.

If you mean 1-ofs in every deck, it's helped by having massive amounts of tutors and draw spells, so you can call up what you need to combat a given situation. Sort of like having a wishboard...but directly in your deck. That's actually one of the things that I miss about Vintage in Legacy.

Lego

06-05-2008, 12:02 PM

Not sure what you mean by extreme randomness. Brainstom and Ponder helped consistency, so the restrictions would actually make that worse.

I think he's under the impression that in Vintage, whoever starts with a good hand will just randomly win on Turn 1. That's what a lot of people think about Vintage. That there's no skill involved, it's simply who can go broken faster.

nastynate

06-05-2008, 01:07 PM

Honestly I've never understood why people enjoyed playing a format in which extreme randomness predominates but to each their own.

To people unfamiliar with vintage, those one-ofs in the deck lists look random, but they really aren't.

Moxen + Lotus + Crypt + Sol Ring all serve virtually the same purpose; I like to tell people unfamiliar with the format that in vintage you basically begin the game with two mana on turn one. This is part of the reason why merchant scroll was so powerful...it's a turn one play.

Then you've got a bunch of tutors like vampiric tutor, demonic tutor, mystical tutor, and others. Though slightly different from one another, that difference is negligible; they all help you seek out and play your bombs, disruption, card draw, and answers. Tutors (even a bunch of singleton tutors) decrease the inherent randomness of running other singletons.

The remaining one-ofs are your real bombs like ancestral recall, time walk, yawgmoth's will, necropotence, tinker, etc. These cards seem random, but most vintage decks are built to find them (via cantrips, card draw, and tutors), the winner of the match often being the person who resolves them most consistently.

The restriction of brainstorm and ponder (as well as gush and scroll) is no doubt an attempt to limit the consistency at which decks are able to dig for their restricted game-ending bombs. Losing these cards make it much more difficult to combo-out (in a sense) with necropotence, will, tinker, and so forth. It also makes it more difficult to play control, however, since finding answers will not be as easy anymore either.

OffTheWall

06-05-2008, 01:31 PM

I only recently began playing type I, and prior to that I must admit I was under the same impression as many people that type I always ends turn 1 or 2 and it was all about the broken hand wins. I soon realized that type I is very skill intensive, and requires a great deal of thought in just about everything that you do. With so many restricted cards, you need to make sure you are getting the cards you need in order to win.
I think restricting both brainstorm and ponder was a mistake, and feel that this move will not make new innovative decks more popular, but make things like shop and ichorid run rampant.

Lego

06-05-2008, 01:57 PM

I think restricting both brainstorm and ponder was a mistake, and feel that this move will not make new innovative decks more popular, but make things like shop and ichorid run rampant.

Hence the imminent restriction of Shop and Bazaar. THEN what?

m03

06-05-2008, 02:10 PM

Hence the imminent restriction of Shop and Bazaar. THEN what?

Then 'The Deck' can rise to dominance once again.

I've been watching eBay the last couple of days to see if there was measurable fallout from the restrictions...there actually does seem to be an upswing in the number of people selling off their sets of power this week.

Lego

06-05-2008, 02:14 PM

I've been watching eBay the last couple of days to see if there was measurable fallout from the restrictions...there actually does seem to be an upswing in the number of people selling off their sets of power this week.

They're afraid Power's gonna get banned.

Dont_Stop_Believin

06-05-2008, 02:28 PM

I figure its people quitting Vintage, there isnt any real chance of Power being banned. The only card in an danger of being banned is Yawgmoth's Win.

nastynate

06-05-2008, 03:59 PM

I figure its people quitting Vintage, there isnt any real chance of Power being banned. The only card in an danger of being banned is Yawgmoth's Win.

The restriction of brainstorm and ponder makes it more difficult than it's been in years to actually dig up your YawgWin. I think it's safe, and it will probably remain safe for some time to come. It is the most powerful card in vintage, but nothing is (currently) banned for power level reasons in the format; after all that is the whole point of vintage.

Banning YawgWin is a slippery slope. If it goes, does tinker go too? What about black lotus? There's always going to be a best card, no matter how many get banned. I think it's best to continue to simply restrict cards (for the time being) until that fails to work.

As for the power cards on ebay, yeah people might be selling them because they are quitting, but they might also be selling them because they peak in value every single summer before the Vintage Champs. Most of the vintage players that I know will stick by the format through restrictions; it's usually personal matters that dictate when your power cards are sold (such as lack of time, or desperate need of cash).

TheAardvark

06-05-2008, 09:31 PM

Banning YawgWin is a slippery slope. If it goes, does tinker go too? What about black lotus? There's always going to be a best card, no matter how many get banned. I think it's best to continue to simply restrict cards (for the time being) until that fails to work.

I understand your slippery slope argument, but the issue I have with that is that Will is so much more powerful than the next best card(s) that saying it will set a precedent of the "best" card getting axed seems a little skewed to me. Yes, Ancestral, et al are amazing, but Will is completely ridiculous and off the charts, and I don't think that banning it will really set any negative precedent.

Just my thoughts.

undone

06-05-2008, 11:00 PM

DeathwingZERO

06-05-2008, 11:00 PM

The slippery slope should ONLY apply to those cards that are banned. Why? Because a restriction is enough to prove the power level of a card, but it's still on the same level as everything else restricted.

If they outright banned Will, then what will that prove? The card is no more busted than anything else given the right circumstances. The ONLY reason Will is busted is because decks are developed with the same core 20-30 cards in mind, about half of which are non permanents, and about half a dozen are actual bombs.

We have access (and use) to cards that completely nullify Will. Leyline, Crypt, repeated Furnace tricks, etc. The card still has balance in the format. ALL of the restricted cards do.

In the case of Bazaar and Workshop, I personally think they should have been restricted a long time ago anyway. We know the two are busted, they enable turn 1 wins and turn 1 lockouts just as much as power or Storm mechanics. If they do end up getting restricted, nobody in Vintage should honestly be surprised.

Again, it comes down to that community feeling they were invincible to change. Wizards highly disagreed this year, and hit them for a lot of cards that have been speculated for the last two to three. Many argued Gush shouldn't have come back, that the format was healthy. A lot argued Flash should have been restricted immediately, that the format was healthy. Same went for Scroll, when people realized it was actually a pretty consistent tutor in all sorts of decks. Brainstorm and Ponder were ignored by most because of how long they've had access to them both.

Change in Eternal formats usually means adapting to a great loss or gain. We almost never get hit with small things. It's only because people were comfortable with their 4x Brainstorms that the outcry came. This has NOTHING to do with banning cards, as it's obvious nothing on the restricted list has any bearing whatsoever on causing an imbalance of the format.

raharu

06-05-2008, 11:23 PM

I don't think that Vintage players had access to Ponder, or used it, for any apreciable amount of time, but that's irrelevant because they're most likely going to stay restricted for a long time (that, and woot, I knew Ponder was going to be restricted :tongue:).

Vintage is a format composed of decks and anti-decks (i.e. Storm combo and Workshop-based Prision, for example). Nothing in Vintage will ever be banned up until there isn't a foil for it, and there's a foil for every forseeable card that I can envision seeing print, so Vintage is pretty safe from the bannhammer for quite a long time.

Mayk0l

06-06-2008, 12:08 AM

Well, the newest Latest Developments aired 5 minutes ago on the Wizards site. I quickly scrolled down to the bottom (first 2000 words is Standard nonsense only), only to find a measly 8-or-so lines about the Vintage Restrictions.
What a joke.

The DCI is continually looking to do what is best for the health of the Vintage format.

The combination of Flash with only a few cards, leads to too many turn zero and turn one kills. The speed and ease of these Flash combos led to Flash being added to the Restricted list.

Merchant Scroll, Brainstorm and Ponder have all been added to the restricted list. Merchant Scroll tutors for the most powerful cards. Likewise the access power of Brainstorm and Ponder make finding the powerful restricted cards in a deck too easy.

Gush returns to the restricted list. Last year, we removed four cards from the Vintage Restricted list. Of those cards only Gush has proven problematic as a free card-drawing instant.

Jak

06-06-2008, 01:29 AM

Well... they told us what the cards did.

DeathwingZERO

06-06-2008, 01:44 AM

Ya, the restrictions were really cut and try. There's no reason to bother arguing it, because that's literally what they did.

Brainstorm and Ponder gave too much reach, Scroll IS a tutor, Flash is a downright idiotic card, and Gush.........well we all know what happened when it was released to the masses the second time.

And to those that spent ludicrous amounts of money to bling out cards: I feel for you. But realize that the term "collectible" means little to nothing in terms of value. It merely means the stock market is that much more volatile here. If you bought 4x of anything JUST for Vintage, should be prepared for it to go to 1x at any given moment, if only for purchasing decisions. Much safer that way.

C.P.

06-06-2008, 01:48 AM

Translation:

The DCI is continually looking to do what is best for the health of the Vintage format when we feel like it, which is when we're drunk.

1 equals 1. So we banned bunch of cards.

Oh, isn't the alternate Mox hot? you should be thankful that we pay attention to your format. so shut up. Oh, by the way, we spent too much time doing through test on vintage and writing about the bannings, we ran out of time. So no Legacy.

Oh, if you be bad when we're this nice to you, we'll take away Legacy GP and other high level eternal events. Not that it was going to happen again.

Fuck you,

Mike Turian

/Translate

EDIT: I personally thought the banning was good until I saw the article. I almost feel like punching Turian's fat face.

Giles

06-06-2008, 02:27 AM

mogote

06-06-2008, 03:25 AM

Let's just hope that the DCI is not "continually looking to do what is best for the health of the Legacy format".

Mayk0l

06-06-2008, 04:51 AM

Well... they told us what the cards did.

Yes, but that's not wat I wanted to hear. After changes that warp the format in such a ginormous way you'd expect some kind of decent explanation. Not 8 lines at the end of some crappy article on crappy new prints for Type friggin' two. I couldn't care less about a 6 mana spell that deals 4 damage, whoop-diggity-do.

You are actually satisfied because they told us what the cards do? I hope that was sarcasm, because I had been hoping on a more in-depth analysis. What's next, LED is banned in Legacy 'because it makes three mana'? I can read the card, you know >_<

DeathwingZERO

06-06-2008, 07:12 AM

Yes, that's what I wanted to hear. Type friggin' two. I couldn't care less about Legacy

You didn't have Vintage in a spot I could cut it out right, but the context is still the same. Welcome to the mentality of the average Magicthegathering.com reader.

HSCK

06-06-2008, 07:44 AM

I think this is the most concerning part:

"For many years-long stretches of its history, Standard Magic has included tons and tons of decks that play nothing on the board for several turns, then randomly combine a bunch of spells and a Yawgmoth's Bargain, a Time Spiral (the card, not the set), a Cadaverous Bloom, or a Dragonstorm and kill the opponent. Or play out Stasis, Tangle Wire, Opposition, or Winter Orb / Icy Manipulator to lock down the opponent and prevent them from playing any spells for the rest of the game. Those elements all have a place in Magic, especially "infinite" combos, and I respect them, but they don't need to be the prime focus of what tournament Magic is about, as they have been several times in the past.

I like that this Top 8 definitely includes several archetypes beyond beatdown and fatties, including true control decks, board control decks, aggro-control elements and infinite combos, but that all of these decks used creatures, attacking, and blocking to accomplish their objectives. Contrast those to a Stasis, Time Spiral (the card, not the set), or Winter Orb / Icy Manipulator deck which really don't need to use creatures at all, and are hideously uninteractive with the opponent, and thus often unfun.

In the past, jaded Magic players have often uttered blanket statements like "That card sucks, because people never block in Constructed." Or even "That card sucks, because creatures aren't good in Constructed." Whether you go over to Friday Night Magic tonight, or if you get a chance to look at the Pro Tour–Hollywood coverage, I guarantee you will see plenty of creatures, plenty of attacking, and plenty of blocking, even in the control and combo decks.

And when I compare that to Dragonstorm Standard or Winter Orb Standard or Stasis Standard, it is very obvious to me that Pro Tour–Hollywood shows Standard to be in a fun, healthy, interactive place. And that really gets me psyched up, since making Standard fun, healthy and interactive is a lot of what Magic Development's job is all about. "

While creatures are indeed the spotlight of the game and have been pushed far more heavily these past few years; what happens when they're pushed so hard that every other avenue is removed as a viable way to play the game? Destruction of creativity will eventually lead to stagnation and competitive magic mine as well ceased to exist replaced by *NM. I mean, if that's what they need to do to survive and profit, I guess that's what will occur, but it is concerning to older (I can't believe I'm an older player now) players that they are geniunely taking away parts of the game that made it so great to play.

Nightmare

06-06-2008, 09:18 AM

Dear Vintage,

In case you weren't aware, the sky is blue.

Don't worry, we're keeping an eye on it to make sure we restrict it if it turns out to be too powerful.
Worst. Explanation. Ever.

SilverGreen

06-06-2008, 09:41 AM

Finn

06-06-2008, 09:50 AM

I remember last year when Aaron Forsythe explained in detail why certain cards were unbanned for Legacy (Replenish and Mind Over Matter, I think) but not Land Tax. I was struck by how well he put an end to otherwise constant Land Tax unbanning discussions for quite a while with just a few lines. It restored my belief that Wizards really does think these things through.

Am I the only person who was hoping to get the same sort of explanation today? It seems surreal that this is all we got.

EDIT: @SilverGreen: I have to assume that you can not remember the brief days before FoW. You can not take out FoW. I hate that card. I hate what it makes blue capable of. But I still know that it should never, ever be restricted or banned.

Nightmare

06-06-2008, 09:52 AM

And I'm still waiting for the explanations that would be given on Friday. Someone here have a notice of them?
It's the blurb in Devin Low's article today. Hence the dismay. Try to keep up.

goobafish

06-06-2008, 10:02 AM

I opened up MTG.com to see the explanations last night, saw some silly article on Shadowmoor, which I skimmed, and went to sleep. Next day I see this post and check the site. I couldn't believe the brevity of the explanation. I actually felt as if I was kicked straight in the balls.

SilverGreen

06-06-2008, 11:12 AM

@SilverGreen: I have to assume that you can not remember the brief days before FoW. You can not take out FoW. I hate that card. I hate what it makes blue capable of. But I still know that it should never, ever be restricted or banned.

I know. I'm just saying that even without BS, Blue will still be Blue, because FoW is Blue. I'm not saying that FoW would get the axe, but that the efforts to make Vintage a 5-color format will probably fizzle this time. As expected.

And I read Mike Turian's brief text about the restrictions. I'm just waiting for the explanations yet, as I think everyone here is also waiting.

But well... Why would I complain? I don't even care about Vintage for some time now. My foil Mercadian BS's play fine in Legacy, and I may just trade my Oaths for some Std junk now. I think I can still sleep well tonight.

Nightmare

06-06-2008, 11:30 AM

Mr. Turian,

As I've been reading around on Magic forums this morning, I feel it's safe to say you've been bombarded with emails today, with varying degrees of feelings - mostly centered on frustration and anger. I'm sure at this point, you've had time to read some of them, and I'm sure your day has been going pretty terribly because of it. For that, I apologize on behalf of the Eternal Magic community.

While I can't say I'm particularly pleased with the way the Vintage Restrictions have been handled this quarter, I also can't pretend these changes weren't warranted. Flash, Gush, and Merchant Scroll were all on the level of power that is traditionally relegated to the Restricted list, and it wasn't a surprise to me or anyone else who pays attention to Vintage that these were restricted. Brainstorm, while slightly surprising to some, has been on my personal radar screen for some time, and was bound to eventually become too strong in a format so full of broken cards. As its power is inherently a function of the relative power of the other cards in your deck, its no great shock that a threshold would be reached where putting three new cards in your hand at instant speed would be too good in the format. Ponder, as I'm sure you're aware, is the big surprise this quarter, as no one had seen it coming. I would hope the intent was to limit the amount of options Blue has to replace Brainstorm with a similar replacement - preventing those decks which would use Brainstorm from removing three Brainstorm and adding three to four Ponder.

Understand, this is pure conjecture on my part, because the explanation of these changes was noticeably absent from the place it normally appears after a change is made to the B&R list. Compare the blurb included in Devin's article today to an article like Aaron Forsythe's "Gone in a Flash" (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgcom/daily/af173), and it's easy to see that there has been an oversight on someone's part. I'm not certain who to point the finger toward, which unfortunately means I'm left pointing at who wrote what small explanation there was.

This was the largest, most significant change to the Vintage list in almost ten years. The entire metagame has been effected, whether it be decks which utilized the now restricted cards, or decks which no longer need to be concerned about those decks. The format is in upheaval, and there's no rationalization from the people in charge to give us any real insight into the theory behind these changes. From a group which has, until very recently, followed a policy of "less is more" when it comes to both these type of changes, as well as this format on the whole; and has a track record of transparency on these decisions when they are made, it's confusing to try and sort out this episode.

In my eyes, this represents a continuing trend at Wizards that frankly scares and upsets me - it seems there isn't any significant focus on the eternal formats at all. While I understand that from a business perspective, limited and constructed formats are the "bread and butter," and as such they require the bulk of attention from the company, it blows my mind that there isn't even one person - not one, in a company that employs over 300 people - that could act as liaison to these formats. Having even a single person that focuses on the Legacy and Vintage metagames, on the effect new sets may have on them, and potentially on any issues that arise with their respective banned and restricted lists, would be simple, effective, and a welcomed improvement to the way these changes are handled today. It would provide a point of contact for those of us with concerns, and no other way to bring them forward. I'm honestly amazed that this position doesn't exist already. Hell, if you're looking for the right person or people, look over at StarCityGames.com, and pick a writer. I'm sure Steve Menedian and/or any of the writers on Unlocking Legacy would jump a the chance. Consider this option - it's a surefire way to please a significant portion of your player base that truly feels like their best interests are not being taken to heart.

Sorry to be another in the long list of concerned emails. We're frustrated because we care.

Sincerely,

Adam Barnello
"Mr. Nightmare"
www.mtgthesource.com

Finn

06-06-2008, 12:15 PM

I think the responsibilities of the liason would be even simpler than hiring someone. It would only require an hour or two per week plus representation in meetings and decisions that could affect eternal. Someone should have it added to his/her duty list and simply communicate with the outside via email or something. Heck, that person could simply create an account and watch the pm's flow in.

Adam, that was a very clear and sane email you sent the man. It looks like you spent some time making sure of it. Get back to work!

Nightmare

06-06-2008, 12:36 PM

Adam, that was a very clear and sane email you sent the man. It looks like you spent some time making sure of it. Get back to work!Best part about writing emails - it totally looks like you're working.

Srovex

06-06-2008, 03:45 PM

Too long, didn't read.
Cheers,
M. Turian

Nah, seriously great mail. Makes sense and restored my faith in humankind (Destroyed by MWS...).

etrigan

06-06-2008, 06:43 PM

Likewise the access power of Brainstorm and Ponder make finding the powerful restricted cards in a deck too easy.

And Sensei's Diving Top stays because it doesn't pitch to FoW?

raharu

06-06-2008, 07:00 PM

SDT stays because it has more voulnerabilities and doesn't make blue the core of every viable deck.

Michael Keller

06-06-2008, 07:14 PM

I'm still trying to figure out why people are still talking about these changes. There has been no impact on this format from June 1st because Legacy is fine. That's why there hasn't been any significant bannings since the upheaval years ago.

I mean, come on, does any of this really matter? People are talking about Foil Brainstorms going down because they're restricted now in Vintage. Seriously, those cards are still a bitch to get and will always be worth something. Wizards ultimately divided the formats of "Type 1" and "Type 1.5" years ago and created them as separate entities for a reason: So people can play whatever the hell they want with smaller pockets. If a card goes down in price, oh well. I've had: 14 Mishra's Workshops, 4 Bazaars, 4 Masks, etc. and look at what happened to them: Think I was happy when they got chopped?

No.

But those are the breaks. We play Magic - cards change in value - cards get restricted and banned - oh well. I had no idea my cards were going to sky-rocket and had no idea they would have gotten banned. We had our judgment day, now Vintage gets theirs. Case closed.

AnwarA101

06-06-2008, 08:00 PM

Having even a single person that focuses on the Legacy and Vintage metagames, on the effect new sets may have on them, and potentially on any issues that arise with their respective banned and restricted lists, would be simple, effective, and a welcomed improvement to the way these changes are handled today. It would provide a point of contact for those of us with concerns, and no other way to bring them forward. I'm honestly amazed that this position doesn't exist already. Hell, if you're looking for the right person or people, look over at StarCityGames.com, and pick a writer. I'm sure Steve Menedian and/or any of the writers on Unlocking Legacy would jump a the chance. Consider this option - it's a surefire way to please a significant portion of your player base that truly feels like their best interests are not being taken to heart.

I'm genuinely curious how Wizards comes to these decisions if they don't have people actively looking at them. Like what pushed them over the edge and said "Brainstorm is just too good." Why did they decide to unban Replenish or Mind over Matter in Legacy last summer? They just seem like open questions and I think the mystery behind the decision making is what makes people nervous. Maybe if they even gave us some sense of how they come to the decisions it would probably alleviate much of the problems.

Cabal-kun

06-06-2008, 08:13 PM

I'm genuinely curious how Wizards comes to these decisions if they don't have people actively looking at them. Like what pushed them over the edge and said "Brainstorm is just too good." Why did they decide to unban Replenish or Mind over Matter in Legacy last summer? They just seem like open questions and I think the mystery behind the decision making is what makes people nervous. Maybe if they even gave us some sense of how they come to the decisions it would probably alleviate much of the problems.

1) Flip a coin. Heads: something gets banned. Tails: Leave the B/R alone.
2) Roll a d3. If it's 1, mess with Legacy. 2, mess with Vintage. 3, mess with both.
3) Roll a d5 twice. First roll, that many cards get changed in Legacy. Second roll determines Vintage.
4a) Roll a d5 twice, and subtract each from the first roll in Step 3. The first roll determines how many are removed from B/R. The second determines how many go back on.
4b) Roll a d5 four times, and proceed like was done in Step 4a. The first two determine how many are banned and restricted, the second pair determines how many banned and restricted are unbanned and unrestricted, respectively.
5) Randomly pull cards out of the B/R and legal card pools equal to the number of cards determined in Step 3. Haphazardly, using a dart board, determine which cards of those pooled are banned/restricted/etc.
5a) If a a banned/restricted card or unbanned/unrestricted card is marked to be banned/restricted or unbanned/unrestricted (all respectively), break out the liquor, pass it around, and repeat Step 5a until an employee is hurt.
6) Make announcement.

TrialByFire

06-06-2008, 09:48 PM

Mayk0l

06-07-2008, 12:58 AM

They're not really restricting BS and Ponder because of their own power or because they find powerful cards, I think. They're doing it to low down Blue's relevance in the format a little - trying to raise up the other colors' as a consequence. They just don't have the guts (or the lack of sanity) to do the same to FoW. But I'm sure they considered the hypotesys, at least.

It's nice to speculate the reasoning behind the changes, but you we shouldn't have to after Friday :)

On Adam Barnello's mail: Even though I think it's a bit on the nice side, I think he makes a good point.
My guess: It'll be completely ignored and Monday will just be another MaRo article telling us 'how we can now use 1 basic land in a booster to cast that 6mana 4 damage spell easily! Standard is so awesome! And I develop it! I am so awesome!'

Jak

06-07-2008, 01:46 AM

Yes, but that's not wat I wanted to hear. After changes that warp the format in such a ginormous way you'd expect some kind of decent explanation. Not 8 lines at the end of some crappy article on crappy new prints for Type friggin' two. I couldn't care less about a 6 mana spell that deals 4 damage, whoop-diggity-do.

You are actually satisfied because they told us what the cards do? I hope that was sarcasm, because I had been hoping on a more in-depth analysis. What's next, LED is banned in Legacy 'because it makes three mana'? I can read the card, you know >_<

T'was a joke. I think the explanation is lame. Not that I care about Vintage, but explaining why they would randomly ban something would be nice*.

*I know they did it to weaken blue, but they didn't say why or explain anything at all.

DeathwingZERO

06-07-2008, 02:43 AM

Jak

06-07-2008, 02:53 AM

I think maybe they just gave us too much credit and believed we'd understand why the cards were restricted. I mean it's pretty obvious about 3 of them, Brainstorm and Ponder being the only speculated ones. And our speculations seem to be pretty dead on, they just dig too deep in Vintage.

While I would like them to PROVE that they know what we know, I'm pretty sure that's going to be the explanation.

This is true, but I guess what I am trying to say is they should of given reasons because I feel they don't look at anything in Legacy/Vintage. It is bretty easy to go into a forums and see that there are a lot of Brainstorms, Gushes, Scrolls, etc and ban them. I want to know why how they figured banning those 5 cards would improve the format with some information not just conjecture.

Edit- Didn't read last line of your post :cool:

mercenarybdu

06-07-2008, 03:10 AM

Actualy banning any card, mind you ignoring cards like ante cards which should be auto banned in constructed and cards like shaarazad which have no perpose. The definition of vintage is that you can play any card, and restriction is the only "Power level" answer to a card they have.

In anyevent will is actualy so far off the scale I can see where your comming from. Not that I agree. But Yawg win will never be banned, No matter how degenerate cards in vintage dont get banned for powerlevel issues.

Um...you mean cards that no longer have any context to the modern game via ante cards.

@Adam
The letter is welly written. If we keep our efforts up, we could at least put one of our people in one of the R&D seats of Wizards. Since there is no true eternal player on the R&D team, we could put you up for it along with another one of our eternal guys to teach wizards a thing or two about what the format is truly like after being put into practice.

Pinder

06-07-2008, 04:25 AM

Since there is no true eternal player on the R&D team, we could put you up for it along with another one of our eternal guys to teach wizards a thing or two about what the format is truly like after being put into practice.

I'm suddenly reminded that I live thirty minutes away from Wizards of the Coast.

Hmmm.....

DeathwingZERO

06-07-2008, 05:14 AM

Does anyone know of Forsythe or Buehler (sp?) still keep an eye on Eternal formats at all? It'd seem odd that all of R&D and DCI's people have no clue what's happening in either format, at least from the standpoint of watchers.

Nihil Credo

06-07-2008, 06:55 AM

I'm suddenly reminded that I live thirty minutes away from Wizards of the Coast.

Hmmm.....

Here. (http://www.capricorn.org/%7Eakira/home/terror.html)

Sanguine Voyeur

06-07-2008, 06:59 AM

Here. (http://www.capricorn.org/%7Eakira/home/terror.html)Or just watch Fight Club to learn how to make nitroglycerin. That should destroy what ever you want.

Also, learn how to use thermite if you think you'll face tanks.

Cabal-kun

06-07-2008, 08:03 AM

Also, learn how to use thermite if you think you'll face tanks.

Don't you mean Juggernauts and Phyrexian Dreadnoughts? This is WotC after all.:tongue:

DeathwingZERO

06-07-2008, 08:09 AM

Don't you mean Juggernauts and Phyrexian Dreadnoughts? This is WotC after all.:tongue:

EL OH EL!!!

But seriously, has anyone even divulged any information from WoTC as to who actually is the one that brings up the ideas for Eternal changes? I mean Standard and Extended are pretty cut and dry, bannings are very few and far between. But someone should be paying SOME attention to Eternal specifically. Right?

TheInfamousBearAssassin

06-07-2008, 09:55 AM

Tra la la

You're so sexy when you're being articulate and reasonable.

dahcmai

06-07-2008, 01:58 PM

Good letter Nightmare. I hope they bothered to read it though. Someone to put in a little say that's actually involved in the formats as a player would be nice.

Pinder

06-07-2008, 02:29 PM

Here. (http://www.capricorn.org/%7Eakira/home/terror.html)

That's not what I meant. I meant that I was already in the prime location to take up a job as Wizards' liaison to the Legacy format.

Interesting link, though.

TrialByFire

06-07-2008, 09:54 PM

I was told by Rich Shay today that Mike Turian would be writing a more in depth discussion of this in his next column on June 14th

TorpidNinja

06-07-2008, 10:45 PM

I was told by Rich Shay today that Mike Turian would be writing a more in depth discussion of this in his next column on June 14th

When I was little my chore was to have the dishes done by the time the 'rents got back so that there'd be room to cook dinner. Of course, I had a GameBoy and a bit of natural laziness, so I wouldn't do it. Mom got home, I'd beg for forgiveness and say I'd wash them then and there. She remained pissed and dinner would be late to the table.

The point is that both myself and Turian should have taken care of our responsibilities properly the first time. My excuse is that I was small and Link's Awakening was a supremely awesome game.

freakish777

06-07-2008, 10:56 PM

1) Flip a coin. Heads: something gets banned. Tails: Leave the B/R alone.
2) Roll a d3. If it's 1, mess with Legacy. 2, mess with Vintage. 3, mess with both.
3) Roll a d5 twice. First roll, that many cards get changed in Legacy. Second roll determines Vintage.
4a) Roll a d5 twice, and subtract each from the first roll in Step 3. The first roll determines how many are removed from B/R. The second determines how many go back on.
4b) Roll a d5 four times, and proceed like was done in Step 4a. The first two determine how many are banned and restricted, the second pair determines how many banned and restricted are unbanned and unrestricted, respectively.
5) Randomly pull cards out of the B/R and legal card pools equal to the number of cards determined in Step 3. Haphazardly, using a dart board, determine which cards of those pooled are banned/restricted/etc.
5a) If a a banned/restricted card or unbanned/unrestricted card is marked to be banned/restricted or unbanned/unrestricted (all respectively), break out the liquor, pass it around, and repeat Step 5a until an employee is hurt.
6) Make announcement.

http://magiccards.info/scans/en/ug/58.jpg

In all seriousness:

Flash is a 2 card combo for 1U. It's too good.

Merchant Scroll is a 1 card combo (it get's Gifts Ungiven) for... well a ton of mana, but still a 1 card combo. It's too good.

Gush draws 2 cards for no mana, it's too good.

The restriction of Brainstorm and Ponder mean that Vintage has hit critical mass (or, more likely did in the past, and it's only now that innovation has caught up). If Vintage has hit critical mass, then Brainstorm and Ponder are too good.

Sensei's Divining Top is not too good because it costs 2 mana to play and activate.

Finn

06-07-2008, 11:33 PM

I have always loved that art. The beer makes it special.

m03

06-08-2008, 12:20 AM

In all seriousness:

Flash is a 2 card combo for 1U. It's too good.

If you want to do anything useful with it, it becomes a 7 or 8 card combo that requires the effect to be recurred atleast 19 times....yeah, still for 1U, but it's brittle.

Also, looking at recent tournament results, it didn't seem to be all that impressive at this point in time.

raharu

06-08-2008, 12:29 AM

I'm suddenly reminded that I live thirty minutes away from Wizards of the Coast.

Hmmm.....

A VOTE FOR PINDER IS A VOTE FOR MUDKIPS!!!!!!!1173849TWOTWO!!

Seriously, I trust Pinder to lookout for our format. Anyone else?

Sensei's Divining Top is not too good because it costs 2 mana to play and activate.

But the Impulses that are going to replace Brainstorm and Ponder aren't good? It's possible that everyone (seriously, it's possible that every deck with use for dig could use these) is going to be running SDT in some compacity. I won't say it's the definate future, but it's definately a possiblilty.

Giles

06-08-2008, 01:05 AM

I got a responce from Mike Turian today.

Hi.

I will be writing a more in-depth article explaining the changes during the Latest Developments column next week(6/13). I look forward to your response to our reasons.

Thanks,

Mike Turian

My responce was:

Why couldn't you do it this week?
-Andy

mercenarybdu

06-08-2008, 03:43 AM

How about we put Adam in that seat. Adam has revealed to everyone the hardships of what we have to go through just to host an event. Followed by all of that he has also revelaed a dozen other things about the community on part of the national level.

Luis Scott-Vargas is a coin toss at this time. He is very active in the Eternal Community on this side of the globe and has shown lots of support for the format (Eudemonia has records of his activity already). But I perfer Adam as everyone knows him best in the Legacy Community abroad.

Sims

06-08-2008, 04:11 AM

But the Impulses that are going to replace Brainstorm and Ponder aren't good? It's possible that everyone (seriously, it's possible that every deck with use for dig could use these) is going to be running SDT in some compacity. I won't say it's the definate future, but it's definately a possiblilty.

I see it more like this: Top is useable, but it's best comparison is Impulse, not Ponder or Brainstorm. It costs essentially the same, doesn't look as deep, and doesn't pitch to Force to stop a turn 1 win. The upside is that it's reuseable, but I'm not sure people aren't going to just pick up their impulses and look a card deeper while maintaining blue count for FoW.

TorpidNinja

06-08-2008, 04:17 AM

I see it more like this: Top is useable, but it's best comparison is Impulse, not Ponder or Brainstorm. It costs essentially the same, doesn't look as deep, and doesn't pitch to Force to stop a turn 1 win. The upside is that it's reuseable, but I'm not sure people aren't going to just pick up their impulses and look a card deeper while maintaining blue count for FoW.

This part really struck me because, though I'm certain it's been discussed: does the restriction of these blue card inherently weaken Force of Will in Vintage or are there enough alternatives that it's inconsequential?

DeathwingZERO

06-08-2008, 05:27 AM

This part really struck me because, though I'm certain it's been discussed: does the restriction of these blue card inherently weaken Force of Will in Vintage or are there enough alternatives that it's inconsequential?

As far as the average deck's loss, it was usually 3x Brainstorm. Most of them weren't running Brainstorm and Ponder, and from what I remember Scroll was heavily used in storm and Gush combo, not much else. Obviously we lose the Gush decks, but other than that, average card loss for FoW I'd estimate at 4 1/2, maybe.

In other words, keep the 1x Brainstorm, toss in 3-4x Impulse. Pretty much good to go.

Nightmare

06-09-2008, 08:13 AM

I was told by Rich Shay today that Mike Turian would be writing a more in depth discussion of this in his next column on June 14th
Mike replied to my email with the same "form letter." It makes me wonder if he even bothered to read what I wrote.

Finn

06-09-2008, 09:39 AM

Don't sweat it too much. With as much negative feedback as I am sure he is getting, you had to expect the guy to have a standard response at the ready. It does not mean he skipped your letter.

freakish777

06-09-2008, 10:25 AM

But the Impulses that are going to replace Brainstorm and Ponder aren't good?

I never said that. I'm a huge fan of Impulse...

But I'm sure Wizards will let Impulse have another day in the sun (since it's "different enough" from Ponder/Brainstorm) before making a decision on whether or not to restrict it.

I think the biggest difference is that with the following hand on turn 1 in Grim Long:

City of Brass, Gemstone Mine, Dark Rit, Brainstorm, Demonic Tutor, Timetwister, Mystical Tutor

compared to the same hand with Impulse (or Lim-Dul's Vault) instead of Brainstorm, you can't go "BStorm into Lotus and a Mox on turn 1, oops I win!"

I do think Impulse is good. I also think it will slightly cut down on the turn 1 wins in Vintage by not being able to Brainstorm into missing artifact mana that just makes your hand insane, and that probably isn't a bad thing.

rufus

06-09-2008, 11:06 AM

In terms of 'going off' Brainstorm is much more powerful than Ponder because it's an instant and because it allows the player to hide cards that were originally in the hand - as long as there are 2 'dead' cards, it's effectively as strong as Ancestral Recall.

I'm not sure that Ponder deserved to get hit the same way since it doesn't allow trading cards in, and it's clear to me that Impulse is a much weaker card than Brainstorm with the higher mana cost, and the limit to accessing a single card. Something like Tainted Pact seems like it has more potential in Vintage, and it doesn't really see much play.

mercenarybdu

06-09-2008, 07:47 PM

Mike replied to my email with the same "form letter." It makes me wonder if he even bothered to read what I wrote.

What did the letter say by chance?

Jak

06-09-2008, 07:51 PM

It is posted in this thread. 3 pages back.

Sims

06-09-2008, 07:52 PM

What did the letter say by chance?

I'm guessing he meant this:

Hi.

I will be writing a more in-depth article explaining the changes during the Latest Developments column next week(6/13). I look forward to your response to our reasons.

Thanks,

Mike Turian

Holiday

06-12-2008, 07:24 PM

Here's one reaction from some vintage player to the recent bannings...

http://cgi.ebay.com/Complete-Flash-Vintage-MTG-Tarmogoyf-Duals-Beta_W0QQitemZ280235693648QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item280235693648&_trkparms=72%3A552%7C39%3A1%7C65%3A12&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14

On an unrelated note, is there actually anyone out there who buys those "repacks" on ebay? I'm sure you've seen them they have titles like Black Lotus! Mox Pearl! Tarmogoyf! and I'm willing to bet I'd open it up and its more like... "Mudhole! Amugaba! Trap Digger!"

DeathwingZERO

06-12-2008, 10:48 PM

On an unrelated note, is there actually anyone out there who buys those "repacks" on ebay? I'm sure you've seen them they have titles like Black Lotus! Mox Pearl! Tarmogoyf! and I'm willing to bet I'd open it up and its more like... "Mudhole! Amugaba! Trap Digger!"

I snagged a couple of repacks a few years back, supposedly having a Lotus and Library, etc. There were 100 total, I bought 3 to test them.

I didn't make out like a bandit, but I got my money's worth. 2 Beta Sinkholes in pristine condition and a few other decent rares from the time. I didn't complain.

EDIT: Anybody check out that the "complete" Vintage deck is missing cards, and on top of it NOWHERE near $500 they're asking for? Mega LULZ.

mercenarybdu

06-12-2008, 11:07 PM

I snagged a couple of repacks a few years back, supposedly having a Lotus and Library, etc. There were 100 total, I bought 3 to test them.

I didn't make out like a bandit, but I got my money's worth. 2 Beta Sinkholes in pristine condition and a few other decent rares from the time. I didn't complain.

EDIT: Anybody check out that the "complete" Vintage deck is missing cards, and on top of it NOWHERE near $500 they're asking for? Mega LULZ.

Not bad with a bit of risk, but more or less they're not worth the effort unless you wanna get rich fast as the seller.

C.P.

06-13-2008, 12:16 AM

A reasonable explaination. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgcom/daily/dl41)

Why couldn't they do this a week ago?

raharu

06-13-2008, 12:30 AM

A reasonable explaination. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgcom/daily/dl41)

Why couldn't they do this a week ago?
Because they're retarded.

Silverdragon

06-13-2008, 12:50 AM

A reasonable explaination. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgcom/daily/dl41)

Why couldn't they do this a week ago?

Well that's not as much as I'd hoped for but I won't complain.
On a related note, did anybody else get the impression that they treated all those GAT, GushStorm and Flash decks as one archetype and on top of that they considered every one of those decks a combodeck primary?
If this is true what could this mean for future restrictions and metagame analysis in general?

Jak

06-13-2008, 01:08 AM

Well that's not as much as I'd hoped for but I won't complain.
On a related note, did anybody else get the impression that they treated all those GAT, GushStorm and Flash decks as one archetype and on top of that they considered every one of those decks a combodeck primary?
If this is true what could this mean for future restrictions and metagame analysis in general?

I am more scared of the fact that all they talked about was top 8s. Is this all they looked at? Did they even playt hese decks to see if they were that degenerate? Doesn't sound like it.

Obfuscate Freely

06-13-2008, 09:26 AM

Brainstorm has been under scrutiny as one of the most powerfully efficient cards in the format for many years, and has long teetered on the edge of restriction. For one mana, at instant speed, it fuels an unacceptable level of consistency and searching to dig out whatever is needed at the time, and it is particularly powerful in combination with the many shuffling effects in the format.
I thought this was an interesting statement. Not only could it easily hold true for Legacy as well, but this is the first time I've heard of an "unacceptable level of consistency." Is there really such a thing? From a player's standpoint, I've never felt that consistency is dangerous to the health (or fun) of a format. In fact, I've thought just the opposite, which is a big reason I play Legacy instead of, say, Standard.

BreathWeapon

06-13-2008, 09:43 AM

rufus

06-13-2008, 09:54 AM

Not only could it easily hold true for Legacy as well, but this is the first time I've heard of an "unacceptable level of consistency." Is there really such a thing?

20x Black Lotus, 20x Time Twister, 15x Pact of Negation, 5x Psychic Blast
Is very consistent. It doesn't seem all that fun to me.

freakish777

06-13-2008, 10:50 AM

I thought this was an interesting statement. Not only could it easily hold true for Legacy as well, but this is the first time I've heard of an "unacceptable level of consistency." Is there really such a thing? From a player's standpoint, I've never felt that consistency is dangerous to the health (or fun) of a format. In fact, I've thought just the opposite, which is a big reason I play Legacy instead of, say, Standard.

Although the exact phrase isn't in this article (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgcom/feature/189) I think the consensus was still the same, the level consistency in the original Long lists (getting Yawgmoth's Will via Burning Wish) was unacceptable.

I don't think we really have anything to worry about as far as Legacy goes when it comes to Brainstorm. All of the combo decks in the format play Lion's Eye Diamond (barring Painter's Servant), if one of them becomes "too good" the fast mana will get the axe before the tutors, and the tutors will get the axe before cards like Brainstorm and Ponder.

I'm not advicating for anything getting banned here, I'm just speculating that given the precedence of neutering combo decks the DCI has set, that the next time something does get banned (whenever that is), that it will be Lion's Eye Diamond, assuming something more broken doesn't get printed before then.

EDIT: Another article concerning Burning Wish, Chrome Mox, and LED being restricted in Vintage (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgcom/daily/rb102).

Our version could kill a goldfish on the first turn 60% of the time – an absurdly high percentage of the time, even for Type 1.

"60% first turn kill" = "unacceptable level of consistency"

rufus

06-13-2008, 01:06 PM

I don't think we really have anything to worry about as far as Legacy goes when it comes to Brainstorm. All of the combo decks in the format play Lion's Eye Diamond (barring Painter's Servant), if one of them becomes "too good" the fast mana will get the axe before the tutors, and the tutors will get the axe before cards like Brainstorm and Ponder.

Combo control decks (Aluren, Servant, Hightide/Spring Tide) typically do not play LED. Fast combo (TES, Fetchland, Belcher, Inquisition) and Ichorid combo typically play LED.

freakish777

06-13-2008, 01:30 PM

Combo control decks (Aluren, Servant, Hightide/Spring Tide) typically do not play LED. Fast combo (TES, Fetchland, Belcher, Inquisition) and Ichorid combo typically play LED.

Just to clarify, I definitely see there being a difference between Combo and Combo Control decks. As such when I say Combo, I'm not talking about Aluren or High Tide-Reset decks. Spring Tide yes, however that deck is so unpopular, I don't think it belongs in any conversation about "format health," cards don't get banned because they're the most broken card in the format, they get banned because they're the most broken card in the format and they're being played, if the people who noticed Flash's power level errata had kept it to themselves and no one else noticed, they would have won GP Columbus, and Wizards would have said "Wow, someone did something really cool and surprised the entire field! Kudos! Now let's see if the format can adjust. If it can't then we'll ban it." They would not have banned it immediately.

I did say "barring Painter's Servant."

The other two control combo decks you've mentioned, should they become powerful enough to merit bannings, will have their "fast mana" card banned long before Brainstorm (High Tide & Aluren are both capable of generating obscene amounts of mana).

Again, the issue is what constitutes "unacceptable consistency?" My argument is that fast kills ("over X% goldfish kills by turn Y" for sufficiently large values of X and sufficiently small values of Y) constitute "unacceptable consistency." Banning the fast mana (which can't be done in Vintage) seems like the likely course of action (and there's precedent for it, LED and Chrome Mox were Restricted in Vintage on the same day that Grim Monolith, Ancient Tomb, Oath of Druids and Tinker were banned in Old Extended, note that Tinker and Oath both are fast mana in addition to tutors, giving them two strikes against them). As such, it should be obvious that I think decks that combo at the fattest on turn 3 are acceptable for this format (I'm aware Aluren, Painter's Servant, and High Tide decks can all be built to have turn 2 potential, that said, those builds generally suck, Aluren could even kill on turn 1... but if you're going to play with Lotus Petals and Elvish Spirit Guides, why aren't you playing Belcher or TES instead?).

Potentially a broken Painter's Servant Combo deck (ie, "I want to win now," not "I'm going to set up Counterbalance first") exists. Guess what will get banned before Brainstorm if that's the case?

DeathwingZERO

06-13-2008, 02:14 PM

So ya, all the answers were pretty much as anticipated. They gave a little more depth, which I'm sure a lot of people wanted, but nothing anybody wasn't expecting.

I did like how they actually gave good reasons for Ponder getting cut. It's pretty much truth that only combo decks would bother packing them with Brainstorm getting the axe, and Brainstorm was already a problem that got dealt with. I'd say it was preemptive, but a good call.

Now to get back to playing Ichorid.

BreathWeapon

06-13-2008, 02:22 PM

Even still, unacceptable consistency in Vintage isn't the same as unacceptable consistency in Legacy, because in Vintage Storm bombs are proprietary, but in Legacy Storm bombs come with a self imposed Mind Twist.

edgewalker

06-13-2008, 03:52 PM

20x Black Lotus, 20x Time Twister, 15x Pact of Negation, 5x Psychic Blast
Is very consistent. It doesn't seem all that fun to me.

You make that straw man all by yourself?

mercenarybdu

06-13-2008, 04:37 PM

At least they gave us an explination about why they made those decisions on what they did with the Vintage list unlike a few of the other times in the past.

FoolofaTook

06-13-2008, 05:40 PM

Based on their consistency argument for Brainstorm's restriction I bet we're going to see it banned in Legacy next go round.

Sanguine Voyeur

06-13-2008, 05:44 PM

Why? Seeing three extra cards in Legacy isn't nearly as good as in Vintage. In Legacy combo, Brainstorm doesn't say 'I win' nearly as much. In Vintage, it gave them a ten card starting hand to find all of the broken restricted cards that allow them to win.

Internet Hate Machine

06-13-2008, 05:49 PM

Brainstorm simply is not broken in legacy. I cant see any real reason to ban it, theres nothing unbalanced or too powerful about it here.

FoolofaTook

06-13-2008, 08:56 PM

Because the DCI basically said 3 things:

1. It's very powerful and has been on the edge of being restricted in Vintage forever.

2. It's present in every final 8 in multiple decks and this has been true forever.

3. It puts blue over the top in terms of power in the format and this has been true forever.

All 3 things could be said easily about Brainstorm in Legacy. The integration of Brainstorm into combo decks that only splash blue for it and Mystical Tutor just makes it more likely to get banned in my opinion.

Rhetorical question: how often is Brainstorm not a 4-of in at least half the top 8 of a tourney?

Sanguine Voyeur

06-13-2008, 09:03 PM

1. It's very powerful and has been on the edge of being restricted in Vintage forever.Legacy ≠ Vintage.
2. It's present in every final 8 in multiple decks and this has been true forever.The same can be said about duals, fetches, and Force of Will.
3. It puts blue over the top in terms of power in the format and this has been true forever.Blue isn't over the top. If it was over the top, it would be a problem.

HSCK

06-14-2008, 12:32 AM

I have rhetorical question, how often is Goyf a 4-of? If there's one card that has changed the format it's Goyf, not Brainstorm and since it's nowhere near being banned (un)fortunately I think that serious discussion of Brainstorm's banning in Legacy is a knee-jerk that'll dislocate a hip.

DeathwingZERO

06-14-2008, 12:36 AM

Brainstorm won't be banned in Legacy. We have no trump cards like Vintage does. They can Brainstorm right into Ancestral, Walk, and Will. I guarantee you that any deck packing those 3 cards would win as soon as that is seen.

The sad thing is, they wouldn't even need that busted a play. Brainstorming into Lotus, Demonic Tutor, and a Mox of any type is just as busted. It pretty much comes down to Brainstorm being Ancestral 2-5, when the 2 cards going back means very little to the player. We just don't have that much power here in Legacy.

And enough about Goyf. Seriously, the guy is an overpowered vanilla creature. If Legacy has no risk of banning ANY affinity piece, Goyf isn't even close to the watch list yet. He's good, he's format warping, but he's nowhere near degenerate.

Nihil Credo

06-14-2008, 10:21 AM

I don't play much Vintage, but I had the impression that Forcing a Brainstorm was far from uncommon in that format; whereas in Legacy, while sometimes correct, it's still an unusual play.

freakish777

06-14-2008, 01:46 PM

3. It puts blue over the top in terms of power in the format and this has been true forever.

Their argument for banning was that it put blue Combo decks over the top. Would Vintage Gifts decks have been as good as they were without 4 Brainstorm? Flash decks? GushStorm decks? Vintage is at a point where banning the current combo isn't enough. They've achieved critical mass due to the fact that cards like Black Lotus, Ancestral Recall, Tinker, and Yawgmoth's Will aren't banned.

Brainstorm is only as broken as the cards it can get you.

The very nature of Vintage is brokenness (no bannings), so eventually Brainstorm will be broken in that format (simply looking at how long the restricted list should have given you an estimation of when Brainstorm would be restricted in Vintage).

My argument then is that Brainstorm will almost never be a candidate for banning in Legacy when you could just ban the broken cards instead.