[DECK] Enduring Ideal

[Pulp_Fiction]

Ok, I want to start off by saying that I am a combo player at heart but as of late my meta is all Thresh-Painter trash and running Belcher into Counterbalance.dec is probably not the best move. Properly metagamed SB or not Thresh-style decks are still a tough matchup for combo. And the Tier 1ish combo decks of Legacy I really don't like very much:TES, FT, Belcher, and Ichorid. All fine decks but TES and FT still have rough matchups against Thresh and Ichorid wins game 1 then loses games 2 and 3 to hate or mulls itself into oblivion or dredges into nothing and Belcher just can't win through Counterbalance or Chalice or Trinisphere. Wanting to play a combo deck I went looking towards Extended and Enduring Ideal is dominating everything there. The metas are sort-of similar: Blue control, Rock.dec, Ichorid, Fast Aggro etc. Now I realize that this deck has been tried in Legacy and dismissed but I recently saw a decklist on deckcheck.net of an Enduring Ideal deck that made top 8. That got me thinking, maybe this deck does have a place in Legacy and what is so amazing about it is that it does not die to any of the typical combo hate so I set out to Legacize Enduring Ideal and this is what I came up with:

Spells: 36

3x Enduring Ideal
4x Burning Wish
4x Fire/Ice (I suppose this could be Brainstorm)
3x Mystical Tutor

3x Coalition Relic
4x Seething Song
4x Pentad Prism

1x Pernicious Deed
3x Solitari Confinement
2x Form of the Dragon
2x Dovescape
1x Honden of Seeing Winds
1x Moat
1x Words of War (alternate kill source slot could be Take Possession/Confiscate)

Lands: 24
4x Ancient Spring
2x Boseiju who Shelters All
3x Dwarven Ruins
4x Ruins of Trokair
4x Flooded Strand
1x Windswept Heath
1x Plains
1x Island
1x Mountain
1x Volcanic Island
1x Tundra
1x Plateau

Sideboard:
1x Enduring Ideal
1x Pyroclasm
1x Rite of Flame
1x Replenish
1x Terashi's Grasp (Disenchant Slot)
3x Chalice of the Void/Orim's Chant
3x Sacred Ground (has to be here, this deck just loses to Armageddon, Devastating Dreams, recurring Wastelands)
4x Pithing Needle/Tormod's Crypt

I am sure most everyone knows how this decks works, but for those who don't: the goal is to resolve a single Enduring Ideal and then win. After you cast Enduring Ideal is greatly depends on what you go and get, if you are playing against Thresh you go get Dovescape so they can't counter epic, you can place epic on the stack and counter the Enduring Ideal "copy". Bad times but you go get Dovescape so they can't and then you get Form of the Dragon and they lose. Against any form of fast aggro with burn you go get Solitary Confinement, then get Honden of Seeing Winds to keep the Confinement in play, then Form of the Dragon. Now what I tried to do is make the deck be able to function without Ideal that is why Coalition Relic is in here. Because there are a LOT of decks in Legacy that can't deal with a hard cast Form of the Dragon or a Moat in game 1 and can be sort of iffy games 2 and 3. This deck can ramp up mana pretty sick and can win as early as turn 3 which happens (from my testing) about 25-35% of the time. Not bad at all for a combo deck that does not lose to Chalice of the Void and Trinisphere.

Card Explanation:
I took the general enchantments from Extended versions but added a single Moat because it is really good. Deed clears problem permanents and the remainder are self-explanatory. Words of War is an alternate win-con because I could not think of anything better and removes problem creatures early on if drawn and I want a second win-con in case Form of the Dragon is Extirpated. Sacred Mesa would suck in this deck and I really don't like Take Possession or Confiscate because they don't win games. I am open to any and all suggestions at alternate kill sources from all colors. I don't run Orim's Chant main because I could not find room for it and I really don't think it necessary, to often Orim;s Chant is just a dead draw and in a deck with almost not card draw that seems terrible. Fire/Ice is AMAZING in this deck, it stalls a turn by tapping creatures before they attack, kills Goblins, Meddling Mage, and Gaddock Teeg, and cycles. I really like Coalition Relic in here because it allows the deck to function without Ideal and just start dropping bombs. I HATE Lotus Bloom in this deck as it also becomes a pointless draw if it doesn't show up in the first few draws. One creature that is really good in this deck but I can't include is Academy Rector. Rector, while insane in this deck, makes Swords to Plowshares relevant and is just in general to slow. It would be a worthwhile inclusion however any deck in this format that runs white probably runs Swords so for that reason I didn't include the Rector. Mystical Tutor is HOT in this deck, it acts as Enduring Ideal #7-10 and fetches Seething Song! 4x Mystical Tutor is to many as this deck likes its draw step but 2-3 fit perfectly. The lands are self-explanatory, you play the sac-lands and then sacrifice them to ramp up mana towards playing Ideal. I think every deck should have a few basics to as not to roll over and die to Wasteland and Moon effects and the 3x basics give this deck a fighting chance. Relic and Prism also greatly help with Moon effects. As far as the sideboard goes it is all meta-dependant and the wish board slots are personal choice but the card that HAS to be there is Enduring Ideal and Pyroclasm/Firebolt and the rest is just want you want to play. I LOVE Replenish in there as it will come out of nowhere sometime against something like Eva Green who tore your hand up and demolish them. Rite of Flame is REALLY good in the side as there will be times when you see that you are just 1x mana short and don't want to rely on drawing anything. It may prove to be worthless but right now I really like it.

I have no match-up analysis as of yet and I can only speculate how the matches go but I will definitely do some playtesting and post the results. Please feel free to offer any constructive criticism on this deck and to anyone who wants to play it on MWS please do and post your results. This is a very good deck and it is quite consistent and only time will tell if Enduring Ideal has a place in Legacy.

[Vetinari]

Why sac-lands over Ancient Tomb and City of Traitors?

Due to the speed of Legacy it could probably do with more (and better) acceleration.

edit: can you reliably find Boseiju, as without it you have no game against anything running counters whatsoever.

[Mordenkaynen]

Yeah, it seems to me that green for
- tinder wall, probably orcish lumberjack and eladamri's vineyard (acceleration)
- LftL (wish target, returns lost lands)
- sterling grove (search, protection)
is suitable here. The deck must be fast (faster than current? I don't know). May be it's excessive (and not good if you want to avoid problems with chalice).

Could you edit opening list by separating mana-acceleration and Ideal utility?

Alternative finishers: Opalescence, Debtors' Knell, Chamber of Manipulation (terrible at first glance).

Sometimes Zur's Weirging is used with Dragon Form.

[arsenalpow]

The accelerant package is what really needs work. The hardest part is getting WW to cast the ideal. I would propose a BR accelerant package with manamorphose and pentad prism to help filter into WW. Also U could be added to smooth out draws with brainstorm or ponder.

The deck needs a way to circumvent the typical disruption and permission of this format. Therapy, Duress, Thoughtseize, Daze, FoW, stifle, etc etc are all heavily played so we need to beat that.

I would recommend more active disruption such targeted discard in order to removed permission from the opponents hands in order to guarantee its safe to cast ideal.

The manabase won't be able to survive in a wasteland heavy environment. I'd rethink it.

I would cut the moat for sure, its a dead card.

[Shriekmaw]

I was looking into this deck for Legacy as it was one of the best decks in the Extended format. I just believe the combo is too slow in the format. The other concern is that you don't win on the spot when you do cast Enduring Ideal in a format where is there so much differnt removal to worry about.

The goal would be to speed this deck as much as possible. This would include adding more rituals. I would include fetch lands and colorless sources like Ancient Tomb and City of Traitors. This deck needs to combo as fast as possible. Turn 4 is unacceptable in a format like Legacy, b/c there are so many decks that can win before turn 4.

I played around with this idea as well as Dragonstorm, but found that they are only good extended decks.

[Illissius]

I've been doing a lot of thinking about Ideal. Right now, my starting point sketch of "things I would want in a list" looks like this:

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Lim-Dul's Vault
4 Moment's Peace
4 Enduring Ideal
1 Dark Ritual
1 Krosan Grip
1 Wipe Away
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Solitary Confinement
1 Form of the Dragon
1 Dovescape
1 Humility
4 Pentad Prism
4 Lotus Bloom
4 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
4 Ancient Spring
SB: 4 Maze of Ith
SB: 3 Sudden Shock?
SB: 3 Krosan Grip
SB: 3 Trickbind
SB: 2 Teferi's Response
SB: 1 Pyroclasm
SB: 1 Perish
SB: 1 Extirpate
SB: 1 Decree of Justice / Empty the Warrens

Don't start critiquing that list, because it's nowhere close to finished; it's barely even started. (It probably doesn't have enough room left for lands, and the sideboard has 19 cards). It's basically a list of ideas, presented in the form of a preliminary, partial decklist.

Some of it is rather unorthodox, so here's my thinking.

Q: How do you find Enduring Ideal?
A: Brainstorm, Ponder, Top, and Lim-Dul's Vault. Should be enough. One of my first thoughts was that I didn't want to use Burning Wish, because without Burning Wish, you get to run 33% more copies of Ideal in the maindeck, and hence have a much better chance of drawing it, and digging for it with cantrips and Tops also becomes more effective.

Q: How do you protect Enduring Ideal?
A: Against countermagic, all of those cards which find Ideal also find Boseiju; if you're facing counterspells, it's effectively a two-card combo. (If you aren't, one). Against discard, Brainstorm, Top, and Lim-Dul's Vault are pretty effective. Against permanent based hate, you have to dig for or Vault up a Grip, Wipe Away, Deed, or whatever other bullets you choose to use.

Q: How do you cast Enduring Ideal?
A: This is where the deck is most unfinished. You want Bloom, Prism, and saclands and/or :2: lands to accelerate Ideal (in particular, you want enough land-based acceleration to cast Ideal within a reasonable time frame even if your other acceleration is countered), fetchlands to support Brainstorm, Ponder, and Top, duals to fetch with the fetchlands and cast your spells with, and you need to support :w::w:, :u:, :b:, and :g: (and maybe :r:). All of this within 60 cards. I'm not sure if this is even possible, and if it is I haven't yet figured out how, which is why I hadn't started a thread about the deck myself. (One other card which captured my interest was Squandered Resources; the trouble with it was that it doesn't work with saclands, and if you don't use saclands, you become entirely reliant on spell-based acceleration to ever be able to cast Ideal, and spell-based acceleration can be countered, which introduces another point of failure and completely defeats the point of forcing Ideal itself through with Boseiju.)

Q: How do you cast Enduring Ideal before your opponent kills you?
A: Against aggro decks, you Time Walk as much as you can with Moment's Peace, and use your 16 library manipulation spells to dig for more of them. Also, acceleration. If my calculations are correct, you have a 46.35% chance of either drawing Lotus Bloom in your opening hand on the play or Brainstorming or Pondering into one on the first turn (for simplicity I assumed you have the :u: to cast Brainstorm or Ponder, so it's somewhat less), which more or less guarantees a turn four Ideal under normal circumstances. If you don't, you have to make do with saclands and Prisms.

Q: What advantage could this possibly have over decks like TES and FT?
A: In a word, Boseiju. If the "cantrips, Tops, and Vault to dig for Boseiju+Ideal, and then win through any number of counters" strategy works, then you could have a better game against decks packing countermagic than Storm. If it doesn't, then there's no point in pursuing the deck any further.

Q: What's up with Maze of Ith in the sideboard?
A: The thinking is that against Threshold or other decks with a few, large creatures as their clock rather than lots of small ones, out come Peaces and in go Mazes. They can't counter it, and it'll buy you a lot of time to set up the kill. (Whether more time than you lose by playing Maze instead of a land which produces mana is uncertain, and would have to be tested, like everything else in this post, to see if reality matches up with theory.)

Q: What does this deck fear most?
A: Wasteland plus countermagic, other mana denial strategies, and combo decks faster than it. Wasteland blows gigantic, bloody holes in your Boseiju plan, and I'm not sure if/how you can effectively answer it; Trickbind isn't exactly inspiring. Against other LD decks, things like Teferi's Response or Sacred Ground can help. Against Storm, you have basically no chance in the maindeck, but sideboarding Orim's Chant could be effective. Quite possibly, your best bet is to concede your awful matchups, and not play the deck in metagames with lots of them. Nothing beats everything (for very long, anyways).

[Pulp_Fiction]

This deck is VERY color specific and while I love Ancient Tomb and City of Traitors as acceleration I don't think they are right for this deck. Since it is 3 colors and Wasteland is played It is really going to suck when your only color source gets wasted and you have an Ancient Tomb in play. It is certainly something to consider if it could not hinder the deck to much.

I considered green because I really wanted Wall of Roots in here but green has so much ...bleh kind of acceleration in single cards (Elves are sick fast in multiples). LftL is a good idea (its a wish target as well) but that may slow the deck up even more. I would love to play green, especially for something like Xantid Swarm in the SB and Moment's Peace but when playing a combo deck that runs 24 lands those cards just become dead draws, sure they make you not lose but you aren't winning either. I would think that playing Orim's Chant would be a lot more useful if you were going to add something to the deck. Moment's Peace is awesome but Orim's Chant plays an even more versatile role in also helping defeat combo, counters, and aggro as opposed to just aggro.

1x Wasteland is not a problem but if one of your lands gets wasted then Wasteland get's loamed back .... this really sucks. Pithing Needle in the SB should drastically help this as well as fetching basics.

The Thresh/Control matchup is not as one sided as it seems. It really doesn't matter if they have a single counter because they literally have to counter every threat you cast and since Counterbalance is going to counter .... nothing of relevance most decks only play 4x hard counters (Force of Will). Daze does almost nothing against this deck. Most of those deck's can't deal with a hardcast Form of the Dragon (EE for 6??) and they have to have Force after Force after Force. Landstill should be a 50/50 kind of match since they have even less of a clock than Thresh but if they get a Wasteland/Crucible lock then things are looking grim but again just fetch basics and play smart.

@ Mordenkaynen: Debtor's Knell is a really good idea, I'm going to test that out.

[arsenalpow]

im currently searching the card databases for a way to cheat an overcosted sorcery into play....i haven't had much luck...

[Roman Candle]

If you really have a hard time with finding WW and want to use Boseiju, you could try Weathered Wayfarer... the only problem is it gives them a target for their removal, and might be too slow.

[freakish777]

I just believe the combo is too slow in the format. The other concern is that you don't win on the spot

This sums up my thoughts on the deck.

The amount of time and energy to produce an optimized list would likely not yield a list that has the positive match ups required to play the deck.

[Elfrago]

I don't think that it's a good way for the development. Only one that I know is Nivix, Aerie of the Firemind - not bad as acceleration, but it doesn't allow to use boseiju while it was stated that without boseiju this deck has no sense. Well, may be it can be used as tech vs. aggro, but then you have to use crop rotation.
So, if adding of two cards (actually 5 - 1 Nivix and 4 rotations) that doesn't do anything in control match up is available - it can be a tech. Yea, it can replace moment's peace if the combo become fast enough.

Do you realize that you still have to pay the card cost with Nivix?

[Sanguine Voyeur]

Of course) It just a way to pay 5 mana instead of 7 (and not necessary WW) and "drawing" Ideal in one (not bad if paired with lim-dul's vault EoT).You would still have to pay for the Ideal. It would effectivly cost 12 mana to play an Ideal off of Nivix.

[mercenarybdu]

How about some Replenish as a back up plan if your original plan goes to hell.

[Pulp_Fiction]

I have 1x Replenish in the wish board but any more is not really necessary. You have no way to discard your enchantments aside from Solitari Confinement and it will usually be a dead draw; especially considering you usually only draw like 1-2 enchantments if that before playing Ideal.

[Mordenkaynen]

Hey, guys! There appeared an idea that can fit the deck. This was posted here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?p=245416#post245416).
with humility+living plane, lands no longer produce mana This seems great. Also humility is great for slowing aggro and plane can be "LD" with fire/ice, Words of War but I'm not sure if there is a room for using it as a strong engine (doing the job by itself).