Eventide Previews [Archive]

Willoe

06-06-2008, 07:03 AM

I think Inside Out will be an About Face with a Cantrip.

Cinder Pyromancer will probably be 2/2 with <t>: ping a dude only

Snakeform is some p/t - and creature type altering effect I think.

Dream Thief? Something like when ~ comes into play, target player discards a card and you draw a card?

Desecrator Hag? Landwalk and regeneration ability.

I think Inside Out will be an About Face with a Cantrip.

Hoof Skulkin: Absolutely no idea.

Aerie Ouphes: No idea either.

Kithkin Zealot: 2/1 flash first strike probably or is that too far above common power level?

Nettle Sentinel: Maybe a 1/1 dude with a sac effect.

Drain the Well: Just like Sanguine Voyeur says. Seriously.

Double Cleave: Either a double-strike effect or a destroy two target artifacts effect. Something with multiple times doing a thing. Card advantage card?

Soul Snuffers? I can never guess uncommon cards.

Voracious Hatchling: No idea either.

Unwilling Recruit: Like Voyeur says. Something like that.

This is of course only speculation. I'm just too awesome if I'm right with most of the cards.

Nihil Credo

06-06-2008, 07:06 AM

Why is it that some of the most bad-ass pieces of art end up on mind-numbingly shitty cards? The blue-green god is fucking awful.
Actually, it doesn't look too bad if we take Aeon Chronicler for comparison.

Wallace

06-06-2008, 11:47 AM

Once again the art is sick!!! I can wait to see some more from this set, getting some new U/R and R/W cards will be sweet!!!

undone

06-06-2008, 12:33 PM

I cant wait for BG to come back.... They will print another card someday with dredge 5-7 and I will be there, to add 4 into dredge making it even more retarted:laugh:

Also This may be the set for fetches... Like the UG fetch...

Sek'Kuar

06-06-2008, 12:42 PM

Also This may be the set for fetches... Like the UG fetch...

OHHHH.........
Don't tease me like that...
I want them soooo bad...

raharu

06-06-2008, 12:48 PM

They're never going to print another dredge card again, at least not anything witha dredge count higher than 3. The mechanic is already too powerful, even with just 4 cards that effectively use it.

EDIT: So who else is already unexcited about this set?

Illissius

06-06-2008, 01:17 PM

I'm excited, but then I can't remember a new set where I haven't been.

Bryant Cook

06-06-2008, 01:27 PM

Also This may be the set for fetches... Like the UG fetch...

It's not going to happen.

raharu

06-06-2008, 01:28 PM

I'm excited, but then I can't remember a new set where I haven't been.
True. I was excited for Shadowmoor for a few seconds, but it seems like I loose enthusiasm for the new sets really easily now. They (Wizards) says that they're pushing creatures into the power creep (to rephrase that, making stronger creatures instead of stronger spells), but I have yet to see very many creatures from these sets that I care for. I'll aknowledge that Crusher is a beast nd Tarmogoyf was strong enough to warp the format, but R/G have always had incredibly strong creatures, while white, blue and black are pretty much neglected. I guess I'm still waiting for some strong beaters for Fish/ Bunnies :\

Versus

06-06-2008, 01:38 PM

I'm hoping that something will make these Scarecrows just stupid good as a Tribe. Slivers, but colorless, awesome.

Wallace

06-06-2008, 01:46 PM

...Also This may be the set for fetches... Like the UG fetch...

Fetch lands will never be reprinted ans we will never see enemy color fetch's. Wizards already stated that thay don't like what the fetch lands did to the game, all the searching and shuffeling extending the time a match takes.

Apex

06-06-2008, 01:51 PM

Personally, I'm just happy with the enemy colour cards that are coming out. My cube is in desperate need of colour balance after Shadowmoor. I'm definitely gonna need to shore up UG and BW.

Also, there are probably going to be some nice multicoloured commons for me to use in PDC.

Team-Hero

06-06-2008, 01:52 PM

It's not going to happen.

I think it will happen but not in this set. Wizards knows that when they do print enemy duel lands, that they will be hot in the market. They (if they were to think like me) have them in reserve for a rainy day. Maybe we'll see them sooner than we think because of this whole Mythic Rare thing. Imagine: Mythic Rare enemy fetchlands... that's just stupid in how expensive they are going to be. Wizards will make a KILLING if they were to print them that way.

Team-Hero

06-06-2008, 01:54 PM

Personally, I'm just happy with the enemy colour cards that are coming out. My cube is in desperate need of colour balance after Shadowmoor.

Can you PM me what this whole CUBE thing is please? I've never heard of it until like 3 days ago.

Sek'Kuar

06-06-2008, 02:03 PM

Wait...They won't do fetches, because they have to do the dual lands to complete the cycle started in shadowmoor.

Internet Hate Machine

06-06-2008, 03:05 PM

Imagine: Mythic Rare enemy fetchlands... that's just stupid in how expensive they are going to be. Wizards will make a KILLING if they were to print them that way.

PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF GOD NO! DO NOT WANT!

Finn

06-06-2008, 03:20 PM

Well, here we go. Jeez, that's a handy draw engine.

Overbeing of Myth :ug::ug::ug::ug::ug:
Creature - Spirit Avatar Rare
Overbeing of Myth's power and toughness are each equal to the number of cards in your hand.
At the beginning of your draw step, draw a card.
*/*

technogeek5000

06-06-2008, 03:30 PM

Seems like a half decent reanimator target... Although most big creatures nowadays are so i guess this guy isnt going to cut it.

Finn

06-06-2008, 03:46 PM

Yeah. I don't think he has any business in Legacy. You can't quite hardcast him reliably. You don't quite want to bother reanimating him. meh

freakish777

06-06-2008, 04:12 PM

Cinder Pyromancer will probably be 2/2 with <t>: ping a dude only How about an 0/1 creature that pings creatures or players with Wither?

Snakeform is some p/t - and creature type altering effect I think. I'll say a creature enchantment that makes a creature into an 0/1 unblockable that puts poison counters on players.... I'll admit this is a weak guess

Dream Thief? Something like when ~ comes into play, target player discards a card and you draw a card? When this comes into play, you get a Extract

Desecrator Hag? Landwalk and regeneration ability. 2/2 Persist, when this comes in remove target creature card in a graveyard from the game, if you do, put a +1/+1 counter on this. Descration usually does stuff with graveyards at least

I think Inside Out will be an About Face with a Cantrip. I'll guess it's an Unsummon varient, for creatures you don't control.

Hoof Skulkin: Absolutely no idea. Artifact Creature Scarecrow, if you control a black creature it has Persist, if you control a green creature it has trample, 2/2

Aerie Ouphes: No idea either. Creature - Ouphe, Shroud, 3/3. I'm guessing this is a filler card for limited

Kithkin Zealot: 2/1 flash first strike probably or is that too far above common power level?

1/1 Sacrifice Kithkin Zealot, destroy target red/black permanent?? Seems like it will have a sacrifice ability

Nettle Sentinel: Maybe a 1/1 dude with a sac effect. 1/1, G, T: Target blocking creature gets +1/+1 until end of turn

Drain the Well: Just like Sanguine Voyeur says. Seriously. Yeah... basically

Double Cleave: Either a double-strike effect or a destroy two target artifacts effect. Something with multiple times doing a thing. Card advantage card?

Instant, target creature gets double-strike until eot

Soul Snuffers? I can never guess uncommon cards. Seems pretty clearly to be a Nekrataal/Keening Banshee type creature

Voracious Hatchling: No idea either. It probably has Deathtouch

Unwilling Recruit: Like Voyeur says. Something like that. Sorcery, Gain Control of target creature with Converted Mana Cost X, at end of turn turn sacrifice it, it deals damage to target creature or player equal to it's power

Comments in bold up above.

YuanTi

06-06-2008, 04:54 PM

I think it will happen but not in this set. Wizards knows that when they do print enemy duel lands, that they will be hot in the market. They (if they were to think like me) have them in reserve for a rainy day. Maybe we'll see them sooner than we think because of this whole Mythic Rare thing. Imagine: Mythic Rare enemy fetchlands... that's just stupid in how expensive they are going to be. Wizards will make a KILLING if they were to print them that way.

Problems with your logic:

a) They've said no. No means no. Not maybe. No.
b) They know fetchlands are too good for standard. Enemy fetchlands would be stupid in Legacy. Splashing any number of colours is suddenly a hell of a lot easier.
c) "Mythic Rares will not be Utility Cards" ~ Maro, paraphrased for convenience.
d) Wizards don't run the secondary market, so no, enemy fetchlands won't directly make them money. (They'll sell more packs at first, but that'll devalue them, and so they'll sell around the same overall.)

raharu

06-06-2008, 08:05 PM

Fetch lands will never be reprinted ans we will never see enemy color fetch's. Wizards already stated that thay don't like what the fetch lands did to the game, all the searching and shuffeling extending the time a match takes.
Terramorphic Expanse? Terminal Morane? Rampant Growth? Tutor effects? Really? Could you cite a source?

TorpidNinja

06-07-2008, 04:56 AM

Problems with your logic:

a) They've said no. No means maybe if it means it'll make them money. Definitely maybe.
b) They know fetchlands are too good for standard but might not care. Enemy fetchlands would be stupid in Legacy. Splashing any number of colours is suddenly a hell of a lot easier.
c) "Mythic Rares will not be Utility Cards, unless we stop giving a shit" ~ Maro's inner voice, paraphrased for convenience.
d) Wizards doesn't run the secondary market, but it doesn't matter because people will buy packs in epic amounts, so enemy fetchlands will directly make them money.

Exhaustively fixed.

mercenarybdu

06-07-2008, 05:18 AM

Are we gonna get our long awaited enemy fetchlands or what?

If it's gonna be like the lands they released in Shadowmoor, then it's another round of cursing to throw at Wizards for not doing the right thing.

@Team-Hero
That doesn't take effect until Shards of Alara if ya didn't read carefully.

Sanguine Voyeur

06-07-2008, 06:01 AM

If it's gonna be like the lands they released in Shadowmoor, then it's another round of cursing to throw at Wizards for not doing the right thing.How would printing fetchlands in Eventide be the right thing? They've started a multi-color land cycle in Shadowmoor that they will continue. Assuming it has the same layout as Future Sight, fetchlands would make ten rare multi-color lands, one sixth of all the rares in the set. One set won't have that much mana fixing in the rare slot.

Nihil Credo

06-07-2008, 07:01 AM

Also, in case you haven't played with them, the Shadowmoor lands are awesome.

Apex

06-08-2008, 12:05 PM

Can you PM me what this whole CUBE thing is please? I've never heard of it until like 3 days ago.

http://www.tomlapille.com/cube/cube.html

for a brief explanation.

As for the preview avatar, it certainly looks very underpowered for legacy. But could be a standard playable card. I mean, Aeon Chronicler and Honden of Seeing Wind all saw play. But then again, Soramaro, First to Dream didn't see any play, so....I have no idea what I'm talking about?

freakish777

06-08-2008, 02:04 PM

b) They know fetchlands are too good for standard. Enemy fetchlands would be stupid in Legacy. Splashing any number of colours is suddenly a hell of a lot easier.

You're wrong. Fetchlands are not too good for Standard.

Here's the T8 of Worlds from 2003, Standard was Onslaught Block, Odessy Block and 8th (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=sideboard/worlds03/t8decks)

Here's the T8 of Worlds from 2004, Standard was Onslaught Block, Mirrodin Block, and 8th (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgevent/worlds04/t8decks)

Here's the breakdown of lands for each:

2003:
Comes into play tapped duals (Coastal Tower): 7
Fetchlands: 17
Krosan Verge: 16
Signet Lands (like Skycloud Expanse): 20
Cycling Lands: 12
City of Brass: 3
Threshold Sacrifice Lands: 1
Temple of the False God: 3

So in Onslaught/Odessy Standard, Krosan Verge was almost as good as the fetchlands, and Signet lands were better! This environment was fair. Nothing got banned in Standard.

2004:
Blinkmoth Nexus: 14
Artifact Lands: 56
Glimmervoid/City of Brass: 8
Cycling Lands: 16
Fetchlands: 9
Comes into play tapped duals: 3
Cloudpost: 4
Temple of the False God: 3

Here, Blinkmoth Nexus, Artifact lands, and Cycling Lands were all better than fetchlands. Lands like City of Brass or Glimmervoid were almost as good. Clearly artifact lands were too good for Standard and eventually got banned.

Claiming that "Wizards knows Fetchlands are too good for Standard" is completely off base. If that were true, they would have been banned. So long as Shocklands aren't also in Standard at the same time, I see no reason why Wizards would think that printing fetchlands would ruin Standard. Comments like these are what make people think ill of players of other formats. You know that guy that opens his mouth and says "A Legacy event, isn't that format like all Channel into Fireball or Goblin Charbelcher on turn 1?" ? Don't be that guy.

Team-Hero

06-08-2008, 05:13 PM

@Team-Hero
That doesn't take effect until Shards of Alara if ya didn't read carefully.

I know.

I think it will happen but not in this set. Wizards knows that when they do print enemy fetch...

kirdape3

06-08-2008, 06:16 PM

raharu

06-08-2008, 08:24 PM

06-08-2008, 09:35 PM

If they make enemy fetchlands they will most likely make them worse versions of the original template (see Alpha duals vs. Ravnica shocklands), and it's most likely that they won't be playable in legacy (I presume that they'll bear a 2-3 life pricetag or CiPT, or an option between the two like with shock lands).

What makes you think so? The enemy painlands from Apocalypse where huge when they came out and were some bigger money cards, and were exact replicas of the original painlands. I don't see why they would make enemy fetchlands any worse than the originals.

freakish777

06-09-2008, 10:51 AM

They're not too good for Standard. They are however far too good for Extended, which probably means that they will not see print again. The idea that a deck can run 12 fetchlands and have access to all five colors of mana on turn 3 has proven a little problematic.

I know what you mean, but I have to disagree. By doing so you're either giving up 6 to 9 life in the process, or you're giving up 2 to 5 life and letting some of your lands come into play tapped. I was under the impression that one of the reasons to play Little Red Deck this past extended season was to be able to win the aggro mirror by just burning your opponent out since they're going to 5 themselves anyways (on average), while not paying life for your own lands.

Levy's mana base (I'm assuming the mana base hasn't changed much) was:

2 Bloodstained Mire
1 Breeding Pool
2 Flooded Strand
1 Godless Shrine
1 Mountain
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Steam Vents
2 Stomping Ground
1 Temple Garden
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills

If we get to change that to:

1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Black/Green Fetch
1 Breeding Pool
1 Flooded Strand
1 White/Black Fetch
1 Godless Shrine
1 Mountain
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Steam Vents
2 Stomping Ground
1 Temple Garden
2 Windswept Heath
2 White/Red Fetch
2 Wooded Foothills
1 Blue/Red Fetch
1 Blue/Green Fetch

Is that really such a big optimization? I completely understand that it affects more than just Gaea's Might Get There, but would giving say, a Blue Green deck Blue Green fetches ruin Extended? Decks like Next Level and Previous Level blue already played 8 blue fetchlands and were capable of running 4 colors... I imagine the diminishing returns on printing more fetchlands would keep them from being "too good." Keep in mind that Extended is about to rotate, so some of the cards that previously would benefit won't be around, and a smaller set of cards should mean less "too good" things around that are capable of taking advantage of the fetchlands.

Versus

06-09-2008, 11:06 AM

Hoof Skulkin: :2: When Hoof Skulkin comes into play choose a color. Hoof Skulkin becomes that color.
[T] Sacrifice Hoof Skulkin to return target card from your graveyard that shares a color with Hoof Skulkin. 1/1

I think I dreamt that last night. That's either stupid broken or unplayable. I can't tell. I just thought I should get it out of my subconcious and into the real world :laugh:

Agent J

06-09-2008, 12:00 PM

I don't like that they do enemy colour pairs again. Maybe I'm too conservative but I think Magic loses lot's of it's flavor if Wizards prints all these enemy colour combinations. The conflict between the colours is an important aspect which defines the game and I don't understand why they can't make a multicolour block with only friendly colour combinations anymore.

If that's not the place for a discussion like this feel free to move/delete my post.

raharu

06-09-2008, 05:11 PM

What makes you think so? The enemy painlands from Apocalypse where huge when they came out and were some bigger money cards, and were exact replicas of the original painlands. I don't see why they would make enemy fetchlands any worse than the originals.
City of Brass will wasn't "too good" for standard/ Extended because you took pain ever time you fixed your mana. Same for the painlands. Fetches + Shocklands are already screwing with Extended because you don't take the hit every time you activate your multicolored mana sources, so you can support these retarded, almost overpowred 4c manabases in a format with a fairly small prevelance of non-basic hate. Yes, they're taking stupid amounts of pain already, but if you were to replace the Fetches with Painlands their manabases wouldn't be playable because of the clock you put yourself on. It would invalidate control an archetype because they would stabilize so low, loose access to pieces of their manabases after hitting a point of low stabilization, and eventually would have to cut down on the colors they ran, effectively loosing access to strong answers in their splash colors which, aparently, are needed to contend with the rest of the format. Even with fetchlands Extended they're seeing this "suicide manabase" creep.

Fetchlands are so much stronger in an environment with duals than painlands that the comparison is almost rediculious. They wouldn't print them weaker because of standard, they would print them weaker so that they wouldn't overrun Extended and proliferate the retardedness already in that format's manabases.

technogeek5000

06-10-2008, 03:46 PM

Now that I think about it again. The Overbeing could be used as a win condition for MUC. MUC stalls all of the time to that point and with cards like Fact or fiction they fill up there hand fine. This would provide a good draw engine and win condition in one package.

Apex

06-10-2008, 06:04 PM

But is it better than Morphling or Meloku though? Probably not. I think the Overbeing of Myth is very low on the MUC finisher list.

Unless of course, we are talking about Type 2 MUC. Maybe it has a shot there (once Aeon Chronicler rotates and somehow they printed a complete hoser card for Oona that is).

zulander

06-10-2008, 11:29 PM

Wow they're churning cets out fast? Didn't shadowmoor just come out?

Wallace

06-11-2008, 11:53 AM

Wow they're churning cets out fast? Didn't shadowmoor just come out?

Every 3 months, thats 4 sets a year...

technogeek5000

06-11-2008, 02:48 PM

Yah, it seems that its going to fast, but I think thats just because they are starting to do previews earlier with the preview pack. Im content at the speed sets come out because if they came out slower then magic would slow down.

Sek'Kuar

06-13-2008, 10:04 AM

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgcom/askwizards/0608

Some tasty speculation for those of you putting the kibosh on enemy colored lands.

Barook

06-21-2008, 12:29 PM

No discussion about the new, spoiled card?

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=73868&stc=1&d=1214037761

Looks abusable.

Jak

06-21-2008, 04:26 PM

No discussion about the new, spoiled card?

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=73868&stc=1&d=1214037761

Looks abusable.

It's not very good. Only thing I can picture it in is Survival, but when do they need another mana guy? Plus, this guy will only produce 1 mana most of the time.

Versus

06-21-2008, 09:05 PM

Hmmm, turn 1 Birds, turn 2 Doran, turn 3 Tatermunge maniac and Wall of Roots, turn 4 (assuming you didn't miss a land drop) you'd have ten mana available...

I dunno, not saying it's good or that that scenario would ever happen in Legacy, I'm just saying it. Doran seems like the best and easiest way to benefit from him anyway.

Illissius

06-21-2008, 09:32 PM

I'd rather play Rofellos.

Sanguine Voyeur

06-21-2008, 09:40 PM

I'd rather play Rofellos.Or Priest of Titania. They're both way better then Bloom Tender. That card is awful.

Versus

06-21-2008, 10:16 PM

I should have amended my statement that Standard could possibly have a place for him. Both Rofellos, Priests, and Cradles are infinitly better here for the purposes served.

Barook

06-21-2008, 11:10 PM

Just saying: The elf + an Untap Aura (Pemmin's Aura, Freed from the Real) is a 2-card infinite mana combo for 2+3 mana.

But most likely, still not competitive.

Illissius

06-21-2008, 11:19 PM

Pemmin's Aura can also give it... infinite toughness, so now all you need is... Doran! I think we have a deck!

Zork

06-22-2008, 12:49 AM

But you also need a kill con that takes advantage of infinite mana, probably something like Laquatus/Oona...

Which leads to a 3 card combo that is vulnerable to creature removal and 2 for 1s. Not good.

hugh1130

06-22-2008, 02:02 AM

volcanic gusher is X damage at instant speed, so theres a win con

staff of dominance has some nice interaction aswell

wirewood channeler with another elf, dyrad arborage with utopia sprawl/fertile ground works to make enough mana for the infinite

but this all seems a little non competitive

raharu

06-22-2008, 02:12 AM

Wallace

06-23-2008, 10:29 AM

Orb of insight is up here... (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgcom/feature/463)

AngryTroll

06-23-2008, 12:12 PM

Search: 2

No fetchlands, so we can put that to rest finally.

Wallace

06-23-2008, 12:18 PM

Search: 2

No fetchlands, so we can put that to rest finally.

Was this still an issue, I mean wizars came right out and said they wouldn't be printed.

freakish777

06-23-2008, 12:38 PM

Was this still an issue, I mean wizars came right out and said they wouldn't be printed.

Link?

Sek'Kuar

06-23-2008, 12:47 PM

Actually, Wizards basically said they WOULD print some in the future.
Here:
June 13, 2008

Q: Does R&D encourage players designing more allied-color than enemy-color decks? Obviously I would have guessed that your stance towards this issue was balanced, but the 'dual lands' of the recent expansions show that allied-color decks have an easier time getting their mana bases stable than enemy color decks do. Are there any plans on completing the Invasion dual land / Cameo, Planeshift Lairs, Odyssey filter and/or Onslaught fetchland cycles with their enemy-color counterparts or equivalents in the near future?
–Peter, Germany

A: From Brian Schneider, Research & Development:

R&D generally encourages players to play anything they'd find fun to play. One-color, two-color, whatever works. Occasionally we get bored with this 'fun' strategy and that's how we ended up with Mercadian Masques. After playing with Masques for a bit, we inevitably became bored with boredom and decided to design something players might actually like—Invasion. What's all this have to do with your question? Not much, but I'll get to that—relax. Anyway, historically there's been a design bias towards promoting allied colors because of the color wheel—showing what colors work well together helps players understand and appreciate the flavor and story behind the cards. Some colors are friends, some aren't. Invasion block asked the question 'Can't we all be friends?' And it was fun for everyone. We could play all five colors—or any three or four. And it was great. But fun can't last forever as we'd all get bored with that, so we've gone away from the land of off-colored mana fixers and have moved onto other interesting things. What we in R&D learned from this is that increasing the friendliness of the colors, as far as play experience is concerned, is a good thing. Accordingly, it seems likely that we'll do something with enemy-colored stuff in the future... particularly with lands. But I can't really say when."

Shawon

06-23-2008, 04:43 PM

I'll believe it when I see it.

mercenarybdu

06-23-2008, 09:35 PM

they want some sort of classified code before you could use the orb this time around so nearly nobody won't be able to be sure if the enemy fetchlands are really in their or not.

Illissius

06-24-2008, 02:43 AM

Accordingly, it seems likely that we'll do something with enemy-colored stuff in the future... particularly with lands. But I can't really say when.

I'm pretty sure this is just a teaser for Eventide.

Aggro_zombies

06-24-2008, 03:02 AM

they want some sort of classified code before you could use the orb this time around so nearly nobody won't be able to be sure if the enemy fetchlands are really in their or not.
They aren't. In the Orb results thread on MTGSalvation, "Forest" gets zero hits. Fetches are out.

Also, the code is just there to keep people from using bots to hit up the Orb nonstop.

Sek'Kuar

06-24-2008, 10:07 AM

I'm pretty sure this is just a teaser for Eventide.

Thats what I thought too, but the more that I think about it, they probably won't print them in Eventide. A future set, sure, but not Eventide, due to the presence of the "hybrid dual" cycle.
(which sucks because I really, really want enemy fetches)

Illissius

06-24-2008, 10:31 AM

That's what I meant. The fact that they said "we'll do something with enemy colors in the future" is in no way a confirmation that they'll ever do enemy colored fetchlands, because all they were referring to was Eventide, which'll have hybrid lands if it has anything. (I'm hoping that it does, at least, have those.)

Sek'Kuar

06-24-2008, 10:37 AM

Wouldn't they have to? I mean, if you're gonna start a cycle in a set, you should at least have the decency to finish it, especially if it is the main theme of the block. I can see why they never finished the fetchland cycle, as it basically was off topic for Onslaught. But, realistically, they should finish the hybrid duals.

Aggro_zombies

06-25-2008, 01:46 AM

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=magic/eventide/spoiler

Retrace seems like it could be nutty if it ends up on the right (or wrong) cards. Unlike Flashback, it doesn't seem to RFG the card, which means you can use it over and over and over again...add Life for the Loam for extra silliness!

Please Wizards, whatever you do, do not print a "return lands from your graveyard to your hand" card this set.

Please.

mercenarybdu

06-25-2008, 04:22 AM

Unmake is awesome =) it's a more expensive Swords to Plowshares, but at least it doesn't give the opposing player lifegain benefits and in addition to that, it is splashingable which makes it even better.

But then you have to run heavy on those two colors to make it worth while. Might make some slight adjustments with my main prototype to make room for such removal. Maybe I might get rid of the Smother for them (spellsnare is kinda popular at this time and Chalicing for two counters in a stompy deck is also really high at this time).

moOnsteak

06-25-2008, 07:46 AM

Versus

06-25-2008, 08:03 AM

atv

06-25-2008, 08:07 AM

There will be a new set of fetchlands someday, do not doubt it. They just won't be in this set.

And they won't be screwing up Extended, because the old fetches have most likely rotated out by then.

rleader

06-25-2008, 08:25 AM

I'm surprised that both mechanics were spoiled so early. It took a while to find out what they were in shadowmoor. I'm more surprised that chroma is chroma in english, too; I thought it was a mistranslation.

Apex

06-25-2008, 09:55 AM

What about Stigma Lasher?

RR for 2/2 Wither, when it hits a player, that player can't gain life for the rest of the game? It's not even combat damage, just damage. Seems pretty good.

Maybe as a anti-anti sideboard cards? I mean, Flame of the Blood Hand saw play even in extended, and this guy seems aggressively costed enough. Though I can't immediately see what deck could utilize him. I don't think he could replaced Keldon Marauders in the 2 slot.

Pinder

06-25-2008, 10:16 AM

At first I thought retrace was just a really shitty version of Flashback, but then I realized that- and this is awesome- it doesn't remove the card in the graveyard from the game. Dead land draws late game? No problem! Turn them into productive spells with the power of Oxi Clea- er, I mean Retrace!

I agree with moOnsteak. A nice G or R sorcery with Retrace could be really good for Aggro-Loam. Retrace will be good for any deck that can properly abuse loam, though.

And can you imagine Intuition for <Retrace Card>/<(Cycling?)Land>/Life from the Loam? Oh man.

Cire

06-25-2008, 10:34 AM

I like the White enchantment: Endless horizons. IMO it's a very good card. funny thing is the first thing that i thought when i saw it was Belcher so lol mono white Belcher:

21 Plains
1 R/w Dual

4 Mox Diamond
2 Coalition Relic

4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Endless Horizons
3 Goblin Blecher

4 Orim's Chant
4 Wrath
4 Swords
3 Abeyance
2 Humility
2 Wing Shards
1 Runed Halo
1 Oblivion Ring

or something like that, seems reasonably fun.

Barook

06-25-2008, 10:36 AM

Unmake isn't bad and Stigma Lasher looks quite decent.

Endless Horizons is probably fun, but I don't think that Mono-White decks exist that could really abuse the deck-thinning (Stax runs quite a few non-basics and so does D&T).

Retrace is an awesome ability and there's still hope that among the ten remaining cards is at least a good one.

Goaswerfraiejen

06-25-2008, 10:56 AM

I've gotta say, I'm pretty excited about Retrace.

Wallace

06-25-2008, 11:44 AM

Big fan of these Guys:

http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj319/Wally891/lasher.jpg
http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj319/Wally891/Doomgape.jpg

I think the art on Doomgape is one of the rejected pic for Lord of the pit...

Isamaru

06-25-2008, 11:49 AM

So what happens when Loam gets its hands on Worm Harvest?

http://www.wizards.com/magic/images/mtgcom/products/Eventide/images/h2e0kl196d_EN.jpg

Sanguine Voyeur

06-25-2008, 12:04 PM

So what happens when Loam gets its hands on Worm Harvest?Not much because Aggro Loam is tight enough as it is and Worm Harvest cost five?

But other then that, yeah, at least four 1/1's a turn will win the game.

Nihil Credo

06-25-2008, 12:11 PM

It would probably be an upgrade for those 43-Lands list that run Roar of the Wurm, though.

Stigma Lasher is technically playable as a sideboard card, but is there enough lifegain around to make it worth it? I don't think so.

Doomgape was a joke, right? Wicked art, either way.

Sek'Kuar

06-25-2008, 12:52 PM

Doomgape was a joke, right? Wicked art, either way.

Most likely, but he probably didn't mean legacy viable, just that he liked them.

Wallace

06-25-2008, 01:14 PM

Most likely, but he probably didn't mean legacy viable, just that he liked them.

You are correct, I do play other formats, like imited, where this guy will be a house...

Apex

06-25-2008, 01:22 PM

That guy could technically be good in block, where elemental decks could use Soulstoke to get him out for 2 mana and give him haste. But I don't know, I don't play block, but I heard elementals were not bad there.

So far I'm most stoked about Unmake. It's a common, so perfect for PDC or peasant magic. Now I don't have to waste 4 uncommon slots to play Swords to Plowshares anymore.

Though I'm also pretty excited about the fish thing, Shorecrasher Mimic. 2 for 2/1 that turns into 5/3 when you play a UG spell. Definitely good in limited (where even Medicine Runner is good because he carries the Shield of Oversoul so well), and maybe even constructed playable, but that has to depend on the rest of the UG spells. He might be good if there was an UG spell with Retrace.

freakish777

06-25-2008, 02:08 PM

As it stands right now, Raven's Crime seems worthwhile as a SB to Wish for in Aggro-Loam against Control decks (and non-Ichorid combo decks if you get to turn 3~4 intact with enough black mana).

With that card in your bin and Loam going, it would be almost impossible to lose against a traditional control deck...

mercenarybdu

06-25-2008, 02:30 PM

If Unmake were 2cc, then it would be pretty great. As of now, why not just run Vindicates? If you are already playing B/W, then Vindicate is the right choice, if you are already playing W, then you're sticking with StP. The only deck this helps is Mono black I would think, no?

Endless Horizons seems like it could be amazing in the right deck. White Weenie maybe? D&T? After you make you first 4 land drops, you can basically thin out your entire deck and just draw business.

Lets say you need some fast spot removal. Would you go with Smother or this when it comes down to killing creatures for good? How about the dredge or ichorid decks? Unmake at that cost in the correct deck as a utility is excellent as you don't have to wait for your turn to kill stuff off for good.

Vindicate is still good, but still requires one B and W to play. It's good for killing off all sorts of cards but it is not your best shot all the time when it comes to creatures although the option is there. Unmake solves a few problems that black decks are having trouble doing when it comes to killing creatures at instant speed. Expect it to replace Dark Banishing in the very near future in mono colored builds and think of it to the W/Weenie deck as another 4 copies of Swords to Plows without the lifegain drawback.

rufus

06-25-2008, 03:09 PM

So what happens when Loam gets its hands on Worm Harvest?

http://www.wizards.com/magic/images/mtgcom/products/Eventide/images/h2e0kl196d_EN.jpg

Hmm, looks like a mechanic that was made to go with Darkmor Salvage

It doesn't hit hard, but Needle Specter seems like a card with potential to be Hippie 5-8.

Barook

06-25-2008, 03:22 PM

It doesn't hit hard, but Needle Specter seems like a card with potential to be Hippie 5-8.
Main problems are that it doesn't hit random and is even more vulnerable than Hippie.

mercenarybdu

06-25-2008, 03:32 PM

Needle Specter is terrible as you need a lot more cards to make it worth the effort of playing. The wither gives it a small benefit when it comes to crippling creatures when they block it when it's going in for damage and cards.

We'll have to wait and see what other delightfuls come about in the following days and what Evan and his team has revealed in the upcoming episode of the MTG Show.

edgewalker

06-25-2008, 03:47 PM

A lot of the cards that have been spoiled are getting me pumped this limited and block that will be coming up. I can't wait for Shadowmoor/Shadowmoor/Eventide

Isamaru

06-25-2008, 06:15 PM

So nobody else is really worried/excited that Retrace almost literally says "play me with Life from the Loam" on each card?

I guess it depends on what else they give Retrace... but I am seeing decks being built around playing like Loam already does, only with a lot of modifications.

Sek'Kuar

06-25-2008, 08:18 PM

My fear is only that everyone will play loam for a while and make for a boring format, just to test the ropes, not that it will be overpowered. I play Eva Green regardless of what happens, so come hell or high water it makes no difference to me.

Pinder

06-25-2008, 09:33 PM

So nobody else is really worried/excited that Retrace almost literally says "play me with Life from the Loam" on each card?

More excited than worried, and like you said it depends on what else gets Retrace. Raven's Crime just seems sexy in a Loam shell, though. I mean, :1::g: to return 3 discard spells to your hand, every turn? Or, in some cases, 2 discard spells and your land drop? It's slow, but it would absolutely decimate hands (nigh uncounterably, too).

Isamaru

06-25-2008, 09:41 PM

Pinder, it's definitely sexy. :)

Ihsan, but the format will never be "everyone plays X" (NOTE: PLEASE DISREGARD FLASH I HATE THAT DECK AND ITS THE EXCEPTION TO EVERYTHING) because it isn't too hard to hate out Loam, but currently theres not too too much hate for it.

dahcmai

06-26-2008, 12:49 AM

Except Extirpate. I still fear people actually using the card as I like playing 43 land. 43 Land doesn't like Extirpate much. It can be worked around as usual, but it's still a problematic card to run into. Just means you have to play burning wish and I hate being pushed into colors if I don't have to.

mercenarybdu

06-26-2008, 01:00 AM

Aggro_zombies

06-26-2008, 01:12 AM

Another set of cards have been spoiled on the site from a European Source....

Restless Aparition
B/W B/W B/W
Creature- Spirit
2/2
B/W B/W B/W: CARDNAME gets +3/+3 until end of turn.
Persist

....I could see this card having some potential with the shade effects and the persist.
Too mana intensive to be any good, since you can only pump it if you have mana available in multiples of three. I'd take Nantuko Shade any day.

Puzzle

06-26-2008, 04:32 AM

Main problems are that it doesn't hit random and is even more vulnerable than Hippie.Actually, the main problem is that Hyppie isn't all that hot to begin with.

The Shade doesn't look as good as Nantuko for black, so I guess it's a white card, which, given white's lack of mana boost, means meh. On top of that, the main removal spell is Swords, so so much for Persist.

Illissius

06-26-2008, 07:20 AM

Two favorite combos with Needle Specter thus far: Pendelhaven, Invigorate.

Retrace is sort of like Spellshifters which work from the graveyard.

Sek'Kuar

06-26-2008, 08:16 AM

Ihsan, but the format will never be "everyone plays X" (NOTE: PLEASE DISREGARD FLASH I HATE THAT DECK AND ITS THE EXCEPTION TO EVERYTHING) because it isn't too hard to hate out Loam, but currently theres not too too much hate for it.

I just dont want another hulk/flash, and I cant see that happening here, so I'm not too concerned...
Besides, like you alluded to, I can always just board in Leyline of the Void or Yixlid Jailer.

rufus

06-26-2008, 10:50 AM

Two favorite combos with Needle Specter thus far: Pendelhaven, Invigorate.

There's also Needle Specter + Jitte/SoFI

georgjorge

06-26-2008, 05:20 PM

I don't think Raven's Crime is that hot for Loam decks, as it is best against control decks, where getting Loam going (with either a Waste + Cycle or two Cycles) is already going to give you the win if you have time enough.

But Worm Harvest seems pretty good to me. Not in Aggro Loam, of course, but in Control Loam, meaning 43Lands and The Fear (or however you call it these days). It is a strong defensive card against creature assaults which doubles as a recurring win condition (not good with Deed though). There are also some Intuition-Loam lists running Gigapede, and I could see this card replacing the Pedes - four or five 1/1 seem better than one 6/1 most of the time, on the offense as well as on the defense.

And just MAYBE Thunderblust could be played in Dragon Stompy, competing with the Red Akroma or Taurean Mauler for the spot.

Sanguine Voyeur

06-26-2008, 05:33 PM

And just MAYBE Thunderblust could be played in Dragon Stompy, competing with the Red Akroma or Taurean Mauler for the spot.Thunderblust won't compete for the three drop slot, it cost five. It has to compete with Arc-Slogger. I'm not convinced that either is better. Although Arc-Slogger can clear blockers and shoot people directly, Thunderblust can swing for seven on turn one with persist.

Jander78

06-26-2008, 05:37 PM

If anything comes of this set it could be that Retrace is an actual legit argument to keep Land Tax banned.

HdH_Cthulhu

06-26-2008, 05:47 PM

I hope the print some good blue retrace cards... card drawing, countering...

Shion

06-26-2008, 07:10 PM

If anything comes of this set it could be that Retrace is an actual legit argument to keep Land Tax banned.

I wouldn't see why.... Loam is still better at abusing retrace then Tax. Not to mention you don't have to pack your deck full of basics to use Loam.

Happy Gilmore

06-27-2008, 12:25 AM

Goaswerfraiejen

06-27-2008, 12:28 AM

Is it me or does this card look retardedly good in Loam:

Raven's Crime http://mtgsalvation.com/images/image.png (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=74037&d=1214367069) http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/images/smilies/manab.gif

Sorcery http://mtgsalvation.com/images/spoiler/eventide-common.gif

Target player discards a card.
Retrace (You may play this card from your graveyard by discarding a land card in addition to paying its other costs.)It plucks away memories like choice bits of carrion

Welcome to two days ago. Try this sucker on for size instead:

Flame Jab :r:
Sorcery
Flame Jab deals 1 damage to target creature or player.
Retrace (You may play this card from your graveyard by discarding a land card in addition to paying its other costs.)

Aggro_zombies

06-27-2008, 12:30 AM

Welcome to two days ago. Try this sucker on for size instead:

Flame Jab :r:
Sorcery
Flame Jab deals 1 damage to target creature or player.
Retrace (You may play this card from your graveyard by discarding a land card in addition to paying its other costs.)
Seems much, much worse than Seismic Assault, except maybe as a Wish target.

Goaswerfraiejen

06-27-2008, 12:39 AM

Seems much, much worse than Seismic Assault, except maybe as a Wish target.

In general? Perhaps. But I think it's excellent fodder for Burn, turning its useless land draws into threats.

rleader

06-27-2008, 01:24 AM

In general? Perhaps. But I think it's excellent fodder for Burn, turning its useless land draws into threats.

I don't play burn as I like to play magic [drumroll], but so my opinion might not mean much, but burn aims to win by turn four or five. If you have more than three useless land (that can't be converted into a fireblast) in that timeframe, then you're not going to win. If you're in that situation, Flame Jab (is this even a real card?), is NOT going to get you out of it, it'll be too little, too late. And, as above, the "useless" mountains for Flame Jab would be competing for use with Fireblast. It's like playing Tarmogoyf with Jotun Grunt.

I don't think Burn needs to worry about it's late game to the extent of using that card.

Again, never played burn in a tourney, but just imo.

mercenarybdu

06-27-2008, 03:28 AM

Still Unmake takes the cake in being one of the best cards in the set along side the cards that help out Red Sligh by a considerable margin. But then we still have to account for all the cards that haven't been revealed yet.

danyul

06-27-2008, 03:56 AM

Hopo

06-27-2008, 05:19 AM

I'm really looking forward on basically any reasonably costed blue instant with retrace, which isn't complete crap. Come on, solidarity ftw.

deviant

06-27-2008, 06:17 AM

Yup.

If the blue one says "draw a card", costs one mana and has retrace, I think I'm going to wet myself.

EDIT: Though I'm quite sure we just end up with some milling shit.

Hopo

06-27-2008, 06:44 AM

Yup.

If the blue one says "draw a card", costs one mana and has retrace, I think I'm going to wet myself.

EDIT: Though I'm quite sure we just end up with some milling shit.

Milling shit wouldn't be that bad in solidarity, a long as it's low-costing and instant. But cantripping would just be plain better. I just think that retrace is reserved for other colors then blue. At least I haven't seen any blue retracable ones yet as the cards appear to be in loam colors.

Shugyosha

06-27-2008, 07:45 AM

I would actually love to have that Flame Jab card for a Burn deck, maybe as a two of.

As much as Burn would love to win by turn fourish, you will often find yourself with an empty or dead hand while your opponent starts to make a comeback at some low life total. In those situations I think Flame Jab would be kinda sexy. Smexy, even.

Flame Jab is pretty bad in burn. If your opponent is at three life for example and you have no hand cards but a Jab in the yard you still need to draw three lands to win. Its much more likely that you draw another burn spell instead of three lands so who cares about Jab. 1-2 Shard Volley plus the obligatory 4 Fireblasts is enough to get rid of lands.

Flame Jab for 3: Sorcery, RRR + discard three lands.
Shard Volley for 3: Instant, R + sac a land.

Peter_Rotten

06-27-2008, 08:36 AM

Damn! I got SOOOO excited to put Flame Jab into GoyfSligh. Then I realized it said 1 damage and not 3. Lame, the card can GTFO.

Even 2 dmg would have been tehgoodz, but at one, the card just doesn't do enough.

rufus

06-27-2008, 10:11 AM

Milling shit wouldn't be that bad in solidarity, a long as it's low-costing and instant. But cantripping would just be plain better. I just think that retrace is reserved for other colors then blue. At least I haven't seen any blue retracable ones yet as the cards appear to be in loam colors.

Depending on what's going on, it might also be decent for ichorid type decks.

danyul

06-27-2008, 10:35 AM

Flame Jab is pretty bad in burn. If your opponent is at three life for example and you have no hand cards but a Jab in the yard you still need to draw three lands to win. Its much more likely that you draw another burn spell instead of three lands so who cares about Jab. 1-2 Shard Volley plus the obligatory 4 Fireblasts is enough to get rid of lands.

Flame Jab for 3: Sorcery, RRR + discard three lands.
Shard Volley for 3: Instant, R + sac a land.

Your opinions make too much sense. I cannot comfortably discuss them.

Willoe

06-27-2008, 10:52 AM

Depending on what's going on, it might also be decent for ichorid type decks.

I don't think so. I think Loam is the only deck that will get a really strong weapon, unless a card like this sees print:

Bad-ass cantrip U
Instant
Draw a card.
Retrace

This is actually pretty cool, you get to replace all land cards in your hand with new cards for a bare cost of one mana. Plus, you can really jack the storm count with retrace.

Other than that, the retrace cards will really have to be good in order to see play in Legacy IMO. I can't see Raven's Crime be that good outside BG loam.

Is it just me or do we see a tendency to strengthen loam decks ATM? I know Wizards don't care about Legacy, but I think they at least put their thoughts on it. What do you think?

conboy31

06-27-2008, 11:37 AM

I wonder if they will use scry instead of draw for the blue one.

Sanguine Voyeur

06-27-2008, 11:42 AM

I wonder if they will use scry instead of draw for the blue one.They have no reason to. Scry wasn't in Shadowmoor and is unlikely to be in Eventide.

EDIT: Also, the orb shows zero instances of 'scry.' Not a chance.

Shugyosha

06-27-2008, 11:58 AM

Snakeform
2:ug:
Instant
Target creature loses all abilities and becomes a 1/1 green Snake until end of turn.
Draw a card.

Thanks to the fact that Threshold always likes cantrips it is a decent "removal" in UG Threshold. If your opponent ran into it with his Goyf once he will be weary to block or attack again if you have three mana at hand. it also makes it difficult to block+bolt Goyf unless Goyfs are still 3/4. You can also kill every targetable creature even with your unthreshed creatures and its still a 1 for 1. Well, I'm excited...
Sadly its (as curse of chains) blue and cannot stop Goblin Piledriver. At least Piledriver don't grow bigger from snakes.

Peter_Rotten

06-27-2008, 12:08 PM

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=74099&d=1214452923

This guys at least has me thinking. A 2 shot Ball Lightning? Maybe OK, but 5 mana will kill its playability for Legacy.

Hightower

06-27-2008, 12:21 PM

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=74099&d=1214452923

This guys at least has me thinking. A 2 shot Ball Lightning? Maybe OK, but 5 mana will kill its playability for Legacy.

I'm not sure.. I would like to test it in Dragon Stompy =p

Mental

06-27-2008, 12:26 PM

Yup.

If the blue one says "draw a card", costs one mana and has retrace, I think I'm going to wet myself.

EDIT: Though I'm quite sure we just end up with some milling shit.

It'll probably say: "draw a card, discard a card" or something crappy like that.

Nightmare

06-27-2008, 12:30 PM

Even if it says that, it will be retarded with LftL.

Mental

06-27-2008, 12:40 PM

Even if it says that, it will be retarded with LftL.

Not really, because it will be in blue. It will be played though.

Jak

06-27-2008, 01:35 PM

Intuition + Loam is already good enough to splash for blue. If the retrace one is good, the deck will be retarded.

Mental

06-27-2008, 01:37 PM

Intuition + Loam is already good enough to splash for blue. If the retrace one is good, the deck will be retarded.

Intuition + Loam is extremely vulnerable to extirpate though, unless you also want to play red.

But yeah, it will be good in the right meta.

georgjorge

06-27-2008, 03:02 PM

This card

Cauldron Haze
1{wb}
Instant
Choose any number of target creatures. Each of those creatures gains persist until end of turn.

might be playable in certain decks (not necessarily Tier 1 decks, but still competitive ones), those using CIP stuff like Wall of Blossoms as well as stuff to sac them into (like Phyrexian Ghoul). Then, the card reads "get the CIP effect X times, where X is the toughness of the CIP creature", drawing four cards with Wall of Blossoms for example. Something like RecSur could use it.

Or you could just save your Goyfs from removal with it if the above situation doesn't occur.

Goaswerfraiejen

06-27-2008, 03:15 PM

Cire

06-27-2008, 03:27 PM

they'll only persit Once unless you find away to take off there -1/-1 counters. (additionally i doubt when they come back they even have persist?)

Dont_Stop_Believin

06-27-2008, 03:32 PM

They wont have persist when they come back because the game will see it as a new card. Nice try, tho.

Barook

06-27-2008, 03:32 PM

they'll only persit Once unless you find away to take off there -1/-1 counters. (additionally i doubt when they come back they even have persist?)

I doubt that, too. Otherwise, it would be damn sexy with Spike Feeder and the likes.

Nihil Credo

06-27-2008, 03:36 PM

Yeah, they actually had to change the wording on Cauldron of Something (artifact from SHM) to prevent a T2 infi combo with Spike Feeder.

freakish777

06-27-2008, 03:37 PM

Regardless it's still the cheapest "Save my team from Wrath" card printed.

AngryTroll

06-27-2008, 05:31 PM

Regardless it's still the cheapest "Save my team from Wrath" card printed.

Besides Counterspell, Mana Leak, Daze, and friends.

etrigan

06-27-2008, 06:08 PM

Seems much, much worse than Seismic Assault, except maybe as a Wish target.

Answers Lackey, Confidant, etc, and gives you an edge in Goyf on Goyf combat.

Basically, it's better early than Seismic Assault, but worse late. It will be worth testing in some builds.

Brehn

06-27-2008, 06:39 PM

Nettle Sentinel :g:
Creature - Elf Warrior
Nettle Sentinel doesn't untap during its controller's untap step.
Whenever you play a green spell, you may untap Nettle Sentinel.
2/2

Please, please, please don't make Berserk Stompy competitive :/

And this (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=74192&d=1214596204) is the most ridiculous thing I've ever seen.
Edit for clarity: By "ridiculous" I don't mean "awesome". I mean "ridiculous". The original meaning of the word.

Pinder

06-27-2008, 06:47 PM

And this (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=74192&d=1214596204) is the most ridiculous thing I've ever seen.

It's interesting, but I'm not paying 10 mana a turn for a fucking 8/8, even if it does have flying and first strike. I could maybe see turning it into a 4/4 every now and then, but 90% of the time it's a 2/2 for 1 with an upkeep cost of :wr:. Which is sort of meh.

Sanguine Voyeur

06-27-2008, 06:52 PM

That thing is silly. I like how it interacts with changeling instants and sorceries from Lorwyn.
It's interesting, but I'm not paying 10 mana a turn for a fucking 8/8, even if it does have flying and first strike. I could maybe see turning it into a 4/4 every now and then, but 90% of the time it's a 2/2 for 1 with an upkeep cost of :wr:. Which is sort of meh.It doesn't have a pseudo upkeep cost, they're permanent effects.

Illissius

06-27-2008, 06:55 PM

Yeah, they actually had to change the wording on Cauldron of Something (artifact from SHM) to prevent a T2 infi combo with Spike Feeder.

Wait... before it was printed, right? Otherwise how is that not power level errata?

Brehn

06-27-2008, 07:00 PM

Cauldron of Souls – This card was originally "All creatures you control gain persist." It had the following problem (among potential others—this is just the one that stuck with me). Suppose you had a Spike Feeder (a timeshifted Time Spiral card, now in Standard). You remove both +1/+1 counters to gain 4 life. The Spike Feeder goes to the graveyard but then is returned to play with a -1/-1 counter as it has persist. In addition, it comes into play with two +1/+1 counters as that's just what the card does. Once the card is in play, the -1/-1 counter and one of the +1/+1 counters negate each other according to the "matter/antimatter rule" (my name for it at least). This leaves it as a 0/0—1/1, thanks to its one +1/+1 counter. You may then remove the +1/+1 counter to gain 2 more life, and the whole thing starts over. In the end, it meant that Cauldron of Souls + Spike Feeder = infinite life (or a really, really high number for those math nerds out there). This was dubbed by the development team to be "a problem" (wimps!), so the card was changed.

Link (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgcom/daily/mr328)

Shion

06-27-2008, 07:25 PM

It's interesting, but I'm not paying 10 mana a turn for a fucking 8/8, even if it does have flying and first strike. I could maybe see turning it into a 4/4 every now and then, but 90% of the time it's a 2/2 for 1 with an upkeep cost of :wr:. Which is sort of meh.

It doesn't say till end of turn. It stays in whatever mode you pay for. So you can slowly "evolve" it. and eventually end up with the 8/8 flying, first strike guy.

Well, he's quite versatile, and can possibly come down past counters with his low casting cost. Unfortunately he's pretty damn slow for legacy. That doesn't mean that one of the slower control deck's can't utilize him however. I like his design however, and it looks like it's probably going to be a cycle. If so u/g and b/g should be interesting to see.

Pinder

06-27-2008, 08:28 PM

It doesn't say till end of turn. It stays in whatever mode you pay for. So you can slowly "evolve" it. and eventually end up with the 8/8 flying, first strike guy.

Right. I forgot that I'm an idiot who doesn't read cards. Don't mind me.

Nihil Credo

06-27-2008, 08:43 PM

The gameplay behaviour of that card will be extremely interesting to experience: self-granted permanent benefits are rarely seen in Magic, and normally there's a condition on them (Whirling Dervish/Sliths, etc.).

That doesn't change that no Magic card has ever been so much Pokemon-ic in flavour. Ew.

Wallace

06-27-2008, 09:22 PM

Yeah I think Lava Dart>Flame Jab, and thats not saying to much...

Elfrago

06-28-2008, 06:53 AM

The new red/white liege is good, bolting your opponent each time you play a spell is a powerful effect. Sadly, there is no competitive R/W deck. And there is Mono-R deck where it fits well.

Also, the R/W kithkin-spirit-whatever guy looks interesting but, assuming that it came into play on turn one, having to pay another mana in turn 2 to make it a 2/2 is a consistential drawback for an aggro deck. On the other hand it is still useful when Goyf and the other big guys it the table.

Barook

06-28-2008, 06:56 AM

For reference:

Balefire Liege :2::wr::wr::wr:
Creature - Spirit Horror (R)
Other White creatures you control get +1/+1
Other Red creatures you control get +1/+1
Whenever you play a white spell, you gain 3 life
Whenever you play a red spell, ~this~ deals 3 damage to target player.

2/4

kicks_422

06-28-2008, 07:51 AM

Soul Reap 1B
Sorcery Common
Destroy target nongreen creature. Its controller loses 3 life if you've played another black spell this turn.

They just HAD to fit in nongreen. I'm starting to think that Wizards let Tarmogoyf out on purpose.

Peter_Rotten

06-28-2008, 08:30 AM

Apex

06-28-2008, 08:30 AM

Or, you know, the whole enemy colour thing in Eventide.

But I guess they could have made it "non-white". But there was that Death Rattle thing in Future Sight, maybe the mechanic was half-assedly shifted to Eventide.

So yeah, goyf conspiracy anyone?

Besides that, I like the new Mimic that was revealed. 1{B/G} for 2/1 that turns to a 4/5 Wither when you play a green and black spell. That should confirm that there's a cycle of these guys. I would like to tinker with these guys in a deck, but I don't know if there are enough gold spells that are decent.

Illissius

06-28-2008, 08:31 AM

Spirit Horror? That's... odd.

Too bad it costs five. That probably kills it. Still, Intuition for Lava Dart is 16 damage. Is there any good reusable spell which is both white and red (besides Helix on Scepter)?

(Re: Balefire Liege)

Nihil Credo

06-28-2008, 09:13 AM

Puncture Blast http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/images/smilies/mana2.gifhttp://forums.mtgsalvation.com/images/smilies/manar.gif
Instant
Wither
Puncture Blast deals 3 damage to target creature or player.

About 50% overcosted for Legacy. A pity, because having burn that actually helps against fatties would have been great. I could have seen it in an attempt to resurrect U/R Landstill, for example.

Wicker-bough Elder http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/images/smilies/mana3.gifhttp://forums.mtgsalvation.com/images/smilies/manag.gif
Creature - Treefolk Shaman
Wicker-Bough Elder comes into play with a -1/-1 counter on it.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/images/smilies/manag.gif, Remove a -1/-1 counter from Wicker-bough Elder : Destroy target artifact or enchantment.
4/4

Indrik Stomphowler just got obsoleted.

Restless Apparition (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=74098&d=1214452923)http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/images/smilies/manawb.gifhttp://forums.mtgsalvation.com/images/smilies/manawb.gifhttp://forums.mtgsalvation.com/images/smilies/manawb.gif
Creature - Spirit
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/images/smilies/manawb.gifhttp://forums.mtgsalvation.com/images/smilies/manawb.gifhttp://forums.mtgsalvation.com/images/smilies/manawb.gif: Restless Apparition gets +3/+3 until end of turn.
Persist
2/2

Ooh, now this is interesting. Probably inferior to Nantuko Shade in black decks, even though Persist is nuts against all but StP. But for white-based decks, this is a doozy of a creature. Also, wicked art.

Apex

06-28-2008, 09:25 AM

Wicker-bough Elder is pretty darn good, but how is it better than Stomphowler? Stomphowler is 4G, while this guy is essentially 3GG. Also, beasts have more support than treefolks (maybe even more than shamans too), and that kinda matters for extended where Contested Cliffs gets ran.

Though I guess if you have ways of putting -1/-1 counters on it (maybe with some sort of Persist granting thing), then it would be better.

Sanguine Voyeur

06-28-2008, 09:27 AM

It's better then Stomphowler because the cost can be split between two turns, making it faster as a creature.

I like how the red white Liege turns Lightning Helix into two Lightning Helices.

Nihil Credo

06-28-2008, 09:30 AM

Wicker-bough Elder is pretty darn good, but how is it better than Stomphowler? Stomphowler is 4G, while this guy is essentially 3GG.

3G + G is much better than 3GG. See: Exalted Angel.

Also, beasts have more support than treefolks (maybe even more than shamans too), and that kinda matters for extended where Contested Cliffs gets ran.Good point. I didn't think of that.

TorpidNinja

06-28-2008, 10:22 AM

So, is there any chance in hell of us getting either cheap bounce or card drawing in blue with Retrace attached? I'm really salivating at the idea of continuously bouncing an early Cloud of Faeries back to my hand under High Tide.

ebbitten

06-28-2008, 11:00 AM

being able to cast it before said artifact/enchantment wrecks your day i guess, although i don't see being a ton better than viridian zealot

TrialByFire

06-28-2008, 11:03 AM

Puncture Blast
Instant
Wither
Puncture Blast deals 3 damage to target creature or player.

About 50% overcosted for Legacy. A pity, because having burn that actually helps against fatties would have been great. I could have seen it in an attempt to resurrect U/R Landstill, for example.

All hail finally being able to kill something in a red deck in draft at instant speed!

Illissius

06-28-2008, 11:32 AM

In addition to what was already mentioned, Wicker-Bough Elder is only a 3/3 (for :3::g:) until you can destroy something with it; Stomphowler is always a 4/4 (for :4::g:). On the other hand, Stomphowler will always destroy something, even if that something is yours and you don't want it to.

Slight advantage to the Elder maybe, but I don't think it's clear cut either way (and quite possibly depends on the deck).

Barook

06-28-2008, 01:24 PM

This looks like a fun card in Elf decks, despite not being an Elf:

Primalcrux :g::g::g::g::g::g:
Creature-Elemental Rare
Trample
Chroma - Primalcrux's power and Toughness are each equal to the number of green mana symbols in the mana costs of permanents you control.
*/*

Illissius

06-28-2008, 02:22 PM

That's pretty hot. Turn two Rofellos, turn three 8/8 trampler. Or if you have four of them, they're all 24/24.

(Note: "Hot" doesn't necessarily mean "playable".)

And I really like the 2/2 Elf for :g:. With enough green instants, he has vigilance.

EDIT - Chroma counts hybrid mana symbols, right?

MattH

06-28-2008, 02:23 PM

mercenarybdu

06-28-2008, 02:26 PM

Illissius

06-28-2008, 03:08 PM

Or, you know, Tarmogoyf.

Barook

06-28-2008, 06:08 PM

EDIT - Chroma counts hybrid mana symbols, right?

Hybrid mana is counted, otherwise, the mechanic would be totally out of place and retarded.

Anyway, this looks like an interesting card for Sui Black:

Soot Imp :1::b::b:
Creature-Imp (U)
Flying
Whenever a player plays a nonblack spell, that player loses 1 life.
1/2

Btw, what's up with all that creatures which have lower power than toughness in this set? :confused:

Lego

06-28-2008, 08:03 PM

Btw, what's up with all that creatures which have lower power than toughness in this set? :confused:

I think they're trying to make Wither good?

I love Figure of Destiny.

mercenarybdu

06-28-2008, 08:06 PM

Hybrid mana is counted, otherwise, the mechanic would be totally out of place and retarded.

Anyway, this looks like an interesting card for Sui Black:

Soot Imp :1::b::b:
Creature-Imp (U)
Flying
Whenever a player plays a nonblack spell, that player loses 1 life.
1/2

Btw, what's up with all that creatures which have lower power than toughness in this set? :confused:

If the power was higher than the toughness then people would take too much advantage of the low toughness from all the -1/-1 counter producing cards in the set. So the power had to be lowered and the toughness raised to prevent the cards from easily getting killed.

Anyway, this is good as a draft pick if your entire deck is black coded while it is terrible in constructed.

Shugyosha

06-29-2008, 06:17 AM

A bigger ass than 1 also makes creatures better against weenies, although only a bit.
You can clearly see it at the number of Flying First Strike creatures that are already spoiled that WotC wants to do something against Faeries.

raharu

06-29-2008, 10:07 AM

Tangent: it seems like they're trying (and failing) really hard to make BW playable in the recent sets. This simultaneously saddens me and instills just a little bit of hope...

Lego

06-29-2008, 11:00 AM

You can clearly see it at the number of Flying First Strike creatures that are already spoiled that WotC wants to do something against Faeries.

I don't think they can control sets that close to release. If they wanted to do something about Faeries in this set, they would have had to plan Faeries being powerful, then plan a foil for them in the final set. Not that that's not possible, I'm just saying that it's not in response to tournament results.

Hummingbird TG

06-29-2008, 01:57 PM

Anyway, this looks like an interesting card for Sui Black:

Soot Imp :1::b::b:
Creature-Imp (U)
Flying
Whenever a player plays a nonblack spell, that player loses 1 life.
1/2

Btw, what's up with all that creatures which have lower power than toughness in this set? :confused:

It won't be played anywhere, would it? All an opponent needs to play is one Tarmogoyf to win, and thus unless this guy comes down on turn 1, he ain't doing much -- and even then, for 1BB I'd rather have Hyppie.

freakish777

06-29-2008, 02:32 PM

Soot Imp :1::b::b:
Creature-Imp (U)
Flying
Whenever a player plays a nonblack spell, that player loses 1 life.
1/2

This is going to be absolutely hilarious in multiplayer.

THEchubbymuffin

06-29-2008, 07:16 PM

This is going to be absolutely hilarious in multiplayer.

As if black didn't already have enough good multiplayer shit.

mercenarybdu

06-29-2008, 10:15 PM

Makes for interesting games when it come between Black.

Barook

06-30-2008, 03:15 AM

New previews are here, but they aren't really impressive:

http://www.wizards.com/magic/images/mtgcom/products/Eventide/images/sr30in0xvo_EN.jpghttp://www.wizards.com/magic/images/mtgcom/products/Eventide/images/d7694wbfbk_EN.jpghttp://www.wizards.com/magic/images/mtgcom/products/Eventide/images/12_l86p7h3l0s.jpg

m03

06-30-2008, 03:33 AM

New previews are here, but they aren't really impressive:

They've spoiled half the set so far, and yet, everything I've seen hasn't been impressive. At all. It's the opposite of impressive...a set full of nothing but shitty, overcosted creatures with yawn-inspiring mechanics. I'm starting to have flashbacks of opening Fallen Empires packs back when it came out.

Brehn

06-30-2008, 03:52 AM

a set full of nothing but shitty, overcosted creatures with yawn-inspiring mechanics.

QFT. What do we have so far?

> A decent one-drop for Mono-G (Nettle Sentinel) - not that it matters much
> A decent mechanic to go with Loam - but "Target player discards a card" is still not overwhelming.
> A REALLY GOOD black removal spell:

Soul Reap :1: :b:
Sorcery
Destroy target nongreen creature. Its controller loses 3 life if you've played another black spell this turn.
Then I read the "nongreen" clause. Asshats. ("OMG this card is playable in Legacy! Some dumb legacy players might think we actually care about them! Quick, let's add some kind of condition that makes it totally unplayable")

Still waiting for the Painter's Servant of this set. Or maybe the Swans of Bryn Argoll of this set - a hyped card that turns out not to be too good. Or at least the Ponder of this set - a card that might see play in more than one deck.

Sanguine Voyeur

06-30-2008, 08:27 AM

Ashling the Extinguisher seems like another creature competing to get into Demon Stompy, Deity of Scars is too boring for something called Deity of Scars, and Duergar Hedge Mage seems worse then several alternatives. Although, I guess it's better if you can take out both with one Mage.

Cire

06-30-2008, 08:42 AM

Crag Puca (u/r)(u/r)(u/r)
Creature - Shapeshifter
(u/r): Switch Crag Puca's power and toughness until end of turn.
2/4

that doesn't seam that bad, it's like a 3 mana 4/4 with an upkeep of (u/r), idk what kind of deck can use if but it doesn't look that bad honestly. IMO it's one of the better HHH uncommon creatures.

also the new card from the jap magazine (name still being figured out)

Creature - Elemental 1(u/r)(u/r)
<Tap> (u/r)(u/r); tap two untapped red creatures you control: This deals 3 damage to target creature or player.
<Untap> (u/r)(u/r); untap two tapped blue creatures you control: Return target creature to its owners hand.
2/2

looks really really fun lol.

Sek'Kuar

06-30-2008, 10:22 AM

Nihil Credo

06-30-2008, 10:33 AM

Question to the number crunchers: how many Retrace card are we expected to see in this set?

Jeremy

06-30-2008, 10:43 AM

Sek'Kuar

06-30-2008, 10:48 AM

Question to the number crunchers: how many Retrace card are we expected to see in this set?

About 12

Roman Candle

06-30-2008, 12:23 PM

Umbra Stalker
4BBB

Chroma--> Umbra Stalker's power and toughness are each equal to the number of black mana symbols in the mana costs of cards in your graveyard.

*/*

This seems like a potential finisher for MBC/Train Wreck... the lack of evasion/protection is pretty suckish, but it can kill in one swing, and if you're playing MBC, you've probably done a solid job of wiping their hand/blockers out. It defnitely seems better than Helldozer/Korlash IMHO.

Could also make for fun Oath builds in T1.

Call the Skybreaker
3(U/R)(U/R)
Sorcery

Put a 5/5 blue and red Elemental token into play.

Retrace

Seems solid in MUC as a finisher alongside Morphling, since they both generally shrug off removal. Its possibly even better than Morphling in the mirror match, where it shrugs off counters too. But in the control mirror, you often don't want to hold back lands even late game, so I don't know. It also bites Extirpate pretty hard, but if the opponent sided in Extirpate against MUC, you should be in pretty good shape.

Pinder

06-30-2008, 12:29 PM

anyone spoke about the original meaning of ridicolous?

Springjack Shepherd
3w
Creature - Kithkin Wizard 1/2 Uncommon
Chroma - When Springjack Shepherd comes into play, put a 0/1 white Goat creature into play for each white mana symbol in the mana costs of permanents you control.
"Live together, die alone."

I wonder if there is a strange Island card in this set....

Heh, no. Salvation always puts humorous flavor text on cards when the actual flavor text is unknown. When they were previewing Morningtide, Prickly Boggart had "Not now chief, I'm in the zone" and during Future Sight Blade of the Sixth Pride had "Beware the ides of Caturday".

Nice catch, though.

New previews are here, but they aren't really impressive:

http://www.wizards.com/magic/images/mtgcom/products/Eventide/images/sr30in0xvo_EN.jpg

I think this chick could be decent. A 4/4 for 4 in Mono-Black is nice, and she edicts your opponent whenever she hits them. Sounds pretty sweet to me. Of course, if your opponent has a creature that's just going to die anyway if she hits them, they'll end up chump blocking, but I'm sure there are ways around that.

Roman Candle

06-30-2008, 12:29 PM

Sorry, double post, damn internet in this hotel practically runs on dinosaur bones.

freakish777

06-30-2008, 01:08 PM

Springjack Shepherd
3w
Creature - Kithkin Wizard 1/2 Uncommon
Chroma - When Springjack Shepherd comes into play, put a 0/1 white Goat creature into play for each white mana symbol in the mana costs of permanents you control.

This will be hilarious in draft with Wilt-Leaf Liege, Thistledown Liege, Resplendent Mentor, or Mirror Weave.

In particular, tapping your Goats for life seems wrong somehow...

Roman Candle

06-30-2008, 01:45 PM

Anusien

06-30-2008, 01:48 PM

I just get irritated that they seem to create cards for casual, extended, standard, and sometimes vintage, but rarely for Legacy. On the other hand, I play a lot of casual, so some of the stuff seems fun from that standpoint. Hopefully with the recent poll they will see that legacy is pretty popular and they will design some cards just for us. Makes me look forward to Shards of Alara.
From T2, we've gotten:
Tarmogoyf
Magus of the Moon
Ponder
Counterbalance
Painter's Servant
the whole Merfolk deck (hey, some people like it)
Bitterblossom
Mutavault
Sower of Temptation
Thoughtseize

It's not quite as bad as you say.

Illissius

06-30-2008, 02:43 PM

I think this chick could be decent. A 4/4 for 4 in Mono-Black is nice, and she edicts your opponent whenever she hits them. Sounds pretty sweet to me. Of course, if your opponent has a creature that's just going to die anyway if she hits them, they'll end up chump blocking, but I'm sure there are ways around that.

Basically, it becomes a lot harder for them to try and race you, because if they let Ashling get there even once they just lost the race. If they have say two creatures, swing with one and leave the other back to block, you kill the blocker with a Shriekmaw or Snuff and now Ashling takes out the other. I suppose you could also do things like give it a Warhammer, which would be rather obscene; or SoFI against Goblins...

Anyways, it's a 4/4 with a bonus, as opposed to a 5/5 with a drawback, like most of the rest. It's too bad it has :b::b: in the cost.

Apex

06-30-2008, 02:47 PM

With the new Ashling, I don't know if it's actually better than an edict effect. You still have to target the creature, so it can't kill stuff like Moongoose or pro black guys (not that there's alot of pro black guys in legacy, but for standard and such, where freaking Chameleon Colossus runs around in alot of decks, it could be a problem).

And I actually think one of those Hedge-Mages (it's a cycle of 5) might see some play, even in legacy. Because we all use duals and fetches anyway, so getting 2 lands of the same type on them isn't that hard, and satisfying both condition on the 3rd turn isn't as hard as it is in standard. Also, their abilities say "may", so if you've got the only jitte on board and you need to hit their counterbalance, you can still just target their stuff.

Actually, now that I think about it, destroy Artifact and Enchantment for 3 mana? CB and Top anyone? (Of course, the top will probably never get killed this way, but you know, could be CB and Shackles)

Nihil Credo

06-30-2008, 02:54 PM

Dream Fracture 1UU
Instant
Counter target spell. It's controller draws a card.
Draw a card.

Oh boy, I love this card's existence. I look forward to figuring out, for each blue Standard deck, whether it is better or worse than Cancel. That is, assuming a new base-blue deck doesn't emerge that runs eight of them...

Hotheaded Giant 3R
Creature - Giant Warrior
Haste
Hotheaded Giant comes into play with two -1/-1 counters on it unless you played another red spell this turn.
4/4

Unplayable for Dragon Stompy, but I'm going to mess with this, Coal Stoker, and Storm Entity to see if I can build Empty the Slogger 2008.

Savage Conception 3GG
Sorcery
Put a 3/3 green Beast creature token into play.
Retrace

Same mana cost as the 1/1 token-making one? Lame. It's not like anyone's going to SB Plague against Loam.dec.

Also, let's note that

After its encounter with the spriggan, the patrol was red with anger, green with envy, white with fear, and painfully black and blue.

is the actual flavour text of Swirling Spriggan. Ew.

Gilder Bairn http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/images/smilies/mana1.gifhttp://forums.mtgsalvation.com/images/smilies/manaug.gifhttp://forums.mtgsalvation.com/images/smilies/manaug.gif
Creature - Ouphe
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/images/smilies/mana2.gifhttp://forums.mtgsalvation.com/images/smilies/managu.gif, http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/images/smilies/manan.gif: For each counter on target permanent, put another of those counters on that permanent.
1/3

Useless, but I giggle at the thought of taking a Stax or Stompy player's Chalice and pushing it at 4, locking them out of Armageddon, Magus, Pit-Dragon and whatnot.

Apex

06-30-2008, 02:57 PM

Hotheaded Giant works with Rift Bolt? That's all I've got.

Cire

06-30-2008, 03:06 PM

also with manamorphose...

freakish777

06-30-2008, 03:26 PM

Rite of Flame and Seething Song as well...

KillemallCFH

06-30-2008, 03:29 PM

And Crimson Kobolds!

Apex

06-30-2008, 03:39 PM

Ooo, new stuff.

3WW for 4/4 Flying, when it goes to the graveyard from play, remove target permanent from the game.

RecSur? Though it's in a bad colour for graveyard manipulation....

Cire

06-30-2008, 03:58 PM

Plumeater* 2(b/g)
Creature - Beast
(b/g), Remove a -1/-1 counter from a creature you control: Plumeater gets
+3/+3 until end of turn.
1/1

well...with devoted druid it becomes a billion/billion (and then either fling it or rites of consumption it) lol, maybe another take at a devoted druid combo deck complete with giant growths and harmonize lol.

Wallace

06-30-2008, 04:17 PM

This guy seems like he could fit somewhere:

Archon of Justice*

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/images/smilies/mana3.gifhttp://forums.mtgsalvation.com/images/smilies/manaw.gifhttp://forums.mtgsalvation.com/images/smilies/manaw.gifCreature - Archonhttp://mtgsalvation.com/images/spoiler/eventide-rare.gifFlying
When Archon of Justice goes to a graveyard from play, remove target permanent from the game.4/4

Barook

06-30-2008, 04:31 PM

This guy seems like he could fit somewhere:

Archon of Justice*

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/images/smilies/mana3.gifhttp://forums.mtgsalvation.com/images/smilies/manaw.gifhttp://forums.mtgsalvation.com/images/smilies/manaw.gif
Creature - Archonhttp://mtgsalvation.com/images/spoiler/eventide-rare.gif
Flying
When Archon of Justice goes to a graveyard from play, remove target permanent from the game.
4/4
I dunno, seems rather weak in Legacy. If it only was "When Archon of Justice leaves play, remove target permanent from the game."... :frown:

Bardo

06-30-2008, 10:31 PM

Just went through the spoiler (98 cards) and this set seems like total horse shit for Eternal. Hopefully they'll throw us a bone or two.

mercenarybdu

06-30-2008, 10:46 PM

The recent three cards spoiled didn't fit anywhere for the most part other than casual decks except for another version of Ashing that is competing for spaces in existing decks that might find use of it.

@Bardo
the set maybe horse shit for now but when it comes time for cracking, some of that horse shit might be good in while the ones we thought were grand at the start could be horse shit in the end. So looks are deciving at this time since we don't have most of the physical cards in front of us now.

Yet, most of the cards spoiled are good draft picks.

Sanguine Voyeur

06-30-2008, 10:54 PM

mercenarybdu

07-01-2008, 05:02 AM

We don't need the physical cards to tell there isn't much. So far spoiled, there's a card that may be played in Loam decks against control and a card that may be played in black white decks, although it very well might not.

That's what everyone said after FS was released. "The set is all horse shit" but later on it came clear that there were a lot of good cards that followed in the wake of tinkering around.

Now this set comes along, and everyone says the same thing. It's as if everyone is "believing what the media wants them to believe" without much tampering.

Barook

07-01-2008, 05:20 AM

Blue got an Instant speed draw spell with Retrace! Too bad it sucks hardcore:

Oona's Grace :2::u:
Instant (C)
Target player draws a card.
Retrace

etrigan

07-01-2008, 05:37 AM

That's what everyone said after FS was released. "The set is all horse shit" but later on it came clear that there were a lot of good cards that followed in the wake of tinkering around.

Uh, no. We knew FS was going to be good. We knew immediately that Tarmogoyf, Magus of the Moon, Tombstalker were going to be good. And we knew immediately that things like Pacts, and Street Wraith were at least going to be worth testing.

FS was chock full of obviously good cards.

Hopo

07-01-2008, 06:07 AM

Uh, no. We knew FS was going to be good. We knew immediately that Tarmogoyf, Magus of the Moon, Tombstalker were going to be good.

Actually, no we didn't. Tarmogoyf was underestimated quite a while, even by myself who opened them in packs every now and then. They were like ~5 euros a piece for a relatively long time until it turned out to be the best creature ever. Also, Magus of the moon was priced as a crap rare until dragon stompy and some T2 decks started abusing.

Shugyosha

07-01-2008, 07:20 AM

Actually, no we didn't. Tarmogoyf was underestimated quite a while, even by myself who opened them in packs every now and then. They were like ~5 euros a piece for a relatively long time until it turned out to be the best creature ever. Also, Magus of the moon was priced as a crap rare until dragon stompy and some T2 decks started abusing.

Absolutely. I bought my Goyfs for 2-4 Euros a piece early on. I knew they would replace Werebears but still I didn't buy foils or more playsets... Would have earned me a decent amount of cash...
Tombstalker was also underestimated in Legacy for some time. Nowadays people see how good he is because he can come out of nowhere and kill you. The thing is really hard to remove with the currently played removal except swords.

@Oona's Grace:

C'mon did somebody really thought it would cost :u: ? It can still be freaking good. Decks like Threshold would love to replace lategame lands with new cards at instant speed. Even if costs three mana. Play one or two copies and even if it comes up early either "cycle" it when you have nothing else to do or pitch it into a FOW and forget about it.

Elfrago

07-01-2008, 08:14 AM

C'mon did somebody really thought it would cost :u: ?

Nope, but at least we hoped for :1: :u: . As it is, it's too pricey for most decks.

m03

07-01-2008, 10:13 AM

Spitemare could be fun in combination with Fire Covenant (from Ice Age). Basically, it's a 2 card Channel/Fireball combo for 7 mana. On second thought, that's not very good.

Too bad that Mirror Sheen is worded the way that it is. Way to make a good idea unplayable.

Hopo

07-01-2008, 01:41 PM

It can still be freaking good. Decks like Threshold would love to replace lategame lands with new cards at instant speed. Even if costs three mana.

And it gives to counterbalance more outs against 3cc bombs.
Still, I think that solidarity is the deck to benefit from Oona's Grace, if any. It might just cost one mana too much to be auto-included.

Belgareth

07-01-2008, 01:43 PM

Akuma

07-01-2008, 02:44 PM

We all knew Tarmogoyf was going to be good, we even had people writing articles about how awesome it was. The only reason it was not worth an arm and a leg at the time was that Standard had not caught on yet.

With all that being said, Eventide looks like horse shit...

07-01-2008, 03:17 PM

And it gives to counterbalance more outs against 3cc bombs.
Still, I think that solidarity is the deck to benefit from Oona's Grace, if any. It might just cost one mana too much to be auto-included.

If they can afford to run dogshit cards like Think Twice, I think this would be a perfect fit. Not to mention, it targets the player, so it can actually be used as a win condition.

Bahamuth

07-01-2008, 04:03 PM

If they can afford to run dogshit cards like Think Twice, I think this would be a perfect fit. Not to mention, it targets the player, so it can actually be used as a win condition.

Most of us don't even run Think Twice. But aside from that, this card is a whole different story. If played, this card should be used in mid-combo to get rid of excess land. At 2U, that seems way too expensive really. The option of killing your opponent is really much more interesting tough. It might get a spot.

You can even Freeze yourself to get one in your graveyard! How awesome is that....

Dont_Stop_Believin

07-01-2008, 07:29 PM

Oona's Grace could be played in Solidarity possibly as a 1 or 2 of, filtering lands in hand if you have excess lands while comboing.

mercenarybdu

07-02-2008, 12:20 AM

Blue got an Instant speed draw spell with Retrace! Too bad it sucks hardcore:

Oona's Grace :2::u:
Instant (C)
Target player draws a card.
Retrace

Could work in 2HG. But if someone could fit it in a loam deck, I'd be very impressed.

Aggro_zombies

07-02-2008, 01:09 AM

Could work in 2HG. But if someone could fit it in a loam deck, I'd be very impressed.
And why would you play this in Loam over the Onslaught cycling lands? Or the Urza's ones, for that matter?

Dont_Stop_Believin

07-02-2008, 01:53 AM

And why would you play this in Loam over the Onslaught cycling lands? Or the Urza's ones, for that matter?

You wouldnt, some people like to comment about decks about which they have little to no knowledge, however :rolleyes:

SpatulaOfTheAges

07-02-2008, 05:55 AM

You wouldnt, some people like to comment about decks about which they have little to no knowledge, however :rolleyes:

But if someone could fit it in a loam deck, I'd be very impressed

Oona's Grace could be played in Solidarity possibly as a 1 or 2 of, filtering lands in hand if you have excess lands while comboing.

Do you have any idea what you're talking about?

A) He didn't suggest that it should be played in Loam; the opposite, in fact. If I said "I'd be impressed if you could run the mile in under four minutes", I'm expressing doubt in the possibility, though not an active disbelief in the possibility of the achievment.

B) You, however, did suggest that the card go in a deck in which it would be terrible. Why the hell would Solidarity want to start off paying 3 mana to draw one card, then pay 3 mana for each additional card there after? Stroke of Genuis MD would be strictly better, since you'd draw 3 card for the same price.

C) Inserting smiley face emoticons doesn't make jack assery less jack assish.

rleader

07-02-2008, 06:37 AM

In the MTGO casual room I play a dick ignite memories/grapeshot deck that slow rolls: I play locket of yesterdays and then try to delay the game until I can flashback a bunch of think twices and compulsive researches for one mana a piece. I think my record is something like a storm of 21, which isn't bad for a deck that's standard legal save for 4x Seething Song. Anyway, I'm definitely going to be playing oona's grace in it.

Not sure if Locket of Yesterdays is worth it in Legacy though, but I'd figure I'd bring it up as a combo.

Lego

07-02-2008, 09:39 AM

Not sure if Locket of Yesterdays is worth it in Legacy though, but I'd figure I'd bring it up as a combo.

If you played it in Legacy, it'd probably be with Artificer's Intuition and Sensei's Divining Top with Brain Freeze as a win :smile:

Mister Agent

07-03-2008, 12:25 AM

I really like the new beatstick from Eventide by the name of Talara's Battalion I mean 4/3 trample for two mana seems like it could give a deck like Molotov Cocktail a substantial boost maybe.

For reference you can check out the card here:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgcom/daily/mf205

cooltrainer

07-03-2008, 01:11 AM

I like it alot. It can come in on turn two with Land Grant or Vine Dryad in 9 land stompy.

Aggro_zombies

07-03-2008, 01:45 AM

Mister Agent

07-03-2008, 01:55 AM

Seems worse than Tarmogoyf.

I wasn't implying that Talara should replace goyf.

Aggro_zombies

07-03-2008, 02:54 AM

I wasn't implying that Talara should replace goyf.

Then where should it go, aside from terrible decks no one plays? I'd still play Goyf over this in 9-land Stompy if I was desperate enough to play that deck.

m03

07-03-2008, 03:07 AM

Finally, we see a couple of cards worth consideration:

Wake Thrasher
2U
Creature - Merfolk Soldier
Whenever a permanent you control becomes untapped, Wake Thrasher gets +1/+1 until end of turn.
1/1

Talara's Battalion
1G
Creature - Elf Warrior
Trample
Play Talara's Battalion only if you played another green spell this turn.
4/3

The first is almost always a 4/4 at absolute minimum, and the last should be easy to get out on turn 2 if fitted into an existing elf deck.

Shugyosha

07-03-2008, 03:38 AM

Seems worse than Tarmogoyf.

Then where should it go, aside from terrible decks no one plays? I'd still play Goyf over this in 9-land Stompy if I was desperate enough to play that deck.

Brainstorm is better than Ponder so why should anyone play Ponder right?

Battalion can be quite good in some Stompy decks not only in 9-land. Bezerk Stompy is a good deck no one seems to recognize atm. RG Beatz can also play it.

And after all Goyf is very expensive so new players could substitute it with Battalion in their Stompy decks.

@Wake Thrasher: Seems very interesting. It has potential in the lategame but is a terrible blocker.

Hopo

07-03-2008, 07:19 AM

B) You, however, did suggest that the card go in a deck in which it would be terrible. Why the hell would Solidarity want to start off paying 3 mana to draw one card, then pay 3 mana for each additional card there after? Stroke of Genuis MD would be strictly better, since you'd draw 3 card for the same price.

It's far from terrible in solidarity. It turns otherwise shitty extra lands into cards and solidarity pretty much doesn't care about the 3 mana cost when it goes off. It's a perfect fit there. It's actual card advantage for solidarity since lands in your hand just don't count as cards in that deck. Plus it's better win condition than Stroke, which you have to wish and cast with 7 mana minimum. 3 mana+pitch a land < 2 cards 7 mana in every way, and by < I mean what it actually means.

SpatulaOfTheAges

07-03-2008, 08:02 AM

It's far from terrible in solidarity. It turns otherwise shitty extra lands into cards and solidarity pretty much doesn't care about the 3 mana cost when it goes off. It's a perfect fit there. It's actual card advantage for solidarity since lands in your hand just don't count as cards in that deck. Plus it's better win condition than Stroke, which you have to wish and cast with 7 mana minimum. 3 mana+pitch a land < 2 cards 7 mana in every way, and by < I mean what it actually means.

If Solidarity is at the point where it's willing to pay 3 mana per card, Stroke of Genuis would be strictly better. The reality is that most of the time, at that point, the game is won.

"Turning lands into cards" has no actual advantage over simply drawing cards. You know what other 3 mana card "turns lands into cards"? Thirst for Knowledge. Same cost. Three times as effective.

rleader

07-03-2008, 08:24 AM

I love Crag Puca. No, it's not especially playable, but I've always loved 3/4s for 3 (phyrexian warbeast, etc.), which were pretty much the bees knees back in the old days. Puca has awesome flavor giving blue/red a creature that's so much better than blue/red deserves. It humiliates most of whites 2/4 and doesn't compare that unfavorably to green/whites new 3/4 for 3, which in itself is a miracle.

Hopo

07-03-2008, 08:27 AM

If Solidarity is at the point where it's willing to pay 3 mana per card, Stroke of Genuis would be strictly better. The reality is that most of the time, at that point, the game is won.

"Turning lands into cards" has no actual advantage over simply drawing cards. You know what other 3 mana card "turns lands into cards"? Thirst for Knowledge. Same cost. Three times as effective.
Stroke of Genius is a win condition and if you spend it on yourself, you will die to lethal damage, which usually is on the stack when you go for the kill. Grace is also win condition. And card draw. And filtering. And storm. In just one lousy card which can be played from graveyard multiple times.

Have you played solidarity? Like really played it? If you have, you should know that with the deck your point about lands and card advantage isn't valid. Many times you are in situation where you have like 2 active high tides, untappers, Force of Will and handful of lands without any draw and you lose. Also, while comboing, you only have to care about your mana in quite rare circumstances, i.e. going off with less then 4 lands and/or without high tide. Of course, these will happen anyway sometimes, but Oona's Grace isn't any Jesus which saves your soul from losing.

As far as I know, the retrace card stays in graveyard until somehow removed. Thirst is unusable until midcombo, because you don't want to discard anything besides a Flash of insight. Then, Meditate is strictly better. Solidarity mostly fizzles if it draws too much land, Thirst or not. Grace is reusable as many times as necessary, even as a 1-of. It doesn't care about countermagic, ups the storm count and also acts as a win condition, unlike Thirst. After use it stays there to be used again. It makes milling yourself so much better and lets you use those wishes for something to get the combo going instead of a 7-mana-opponent-draws-one. The catch is versatility, with reusability.
Most likely Oona's Grace will find it's way to solidarity as 1 or 2 copies. It's about time to get something new for that.

Lego

07-03-2008, 09:12 AM

Stroke of Genius is a win condition and if you spend it on yourself, you will die to lethal damage, which usually is on the stack when you go for the kill.

That's a ridiculous thing to say. I can't think of a single reason to ever go off with lethal damage on the stack. You should always, always, ALWAYS go off before combat if there is lethal damage on the table. This allows you to simpley Brain Freeze, then Turnabout some dudes.

Also, Mortality Liege is definitely going to spawn a T2 WB deck. Every time you play a spell, kill a creature? :smile:

Nihil Credo

07-03-2008, 09:13 AM

Stroke of Genius is a win condition and if you spend it on yourself, you will die to lethal damage, which usually is on the stack when you go for the kill.

Flash of Insight -> RFG Stroke -> Cunning Wish for Stroke -> Kill. Also what LAM said.

Either way, I'm personally rating Oona's Grace "maybe playable". Having a last-ditch, Brain Freeze-able cantrip available at any time is sort of cool, but I already hate to see Flash of Insight before the combo and Flash is much more broken after you pay the initial 2U cost.

Van Phanel

07-03-2008, 09:23 AM

Stroke of Genius is a win condition and if you spend it on yourself, you will die to lethal damage, which usually is on the stack when you go for the kill. Grace is also win condition. And card draw. And filtering. And storm. In just one lousy card which can be played from graveyard multiple times.

Have you played solidarity? Like really played it?

You should ask that question to yourself first.

Ever tried to remove a Stroke of Genius in a Flash of Insight and then wishing it back?

Edit: Seems I was too slow with that one.

Also going of with lethal damage on the stack is usually an incredible mistake, as you'll want to go off before they declare attackers so you have the option of tapping their creatures with Turnabout.

If you have, you should know that with the deck your point about lands and card advantage isn't valid. Many times you are in situation where you have like 2 active high tides, untappers, Force of Will and handful of lands without any draw and you lose. Also, while comboing, you only have to care about your mana in quite rare circumstances, i.e. going off with less then 4 lands and/or without high tide. Of course, these will happen anyway sometimes, but Oona's Grace isn't any Jesus which saves your soul from losing.

Actually you will only rarely be in a situation where you have multiple excess lands and lots of mana and an Oona's Grace available.

That said it might be playable as a one-of because it improves your Flash of Insight (Edit: I obviously mean Brain Freeze) on yourself.

Shion

07-03-2008, 09:49 AM

Jeremy

07-03-2008, 09:50 AM

What about

Voracious Hatchling
3{wb}
Creature - Elemental Uncommon
Lifelink
Voracious Hatchling comes into play with four -1/-1 counters on it.
Whenever you play a white spell, remove a -1/-1 counter from Voracious Hatchling.
Whenever you play a black spell, remove a -1/-1 counter from Voracious Hatchling.

6/6

but mainly

Sturdy Hatchling
3{ug}
Creature - Elemental Uncommon
Sturdy Hatchling comes into play with four -1/-1 counters on it
{ug}: Sturdy Hatchling gains shroud until end of turn.
Whenever you play a green spell, remove a -1/-1 counter from Sturdy Hatchling.
Whenever you play a blue spell, remove a -1/-1 counter from Sturdy Hatchling.
Illus. Darrell Riche #163/180 6/6

I'm not saying "WTF Tarmo sucks", but those (especially if the U/R can get flying) may result playable in NQG/Thresh UGr?

They can be cast as 2/2 @4 mana (only one specific), but may become 6/6 quite easily (brainstorm-> lightning bolt, for example) and be there to grow, can give a more wide CC range for counterbalance, and then if the U/R flies (or can fly), be finally a decent answer to Tombstalker and Mystic Enforcerer!

Lego

07-03-2008, 10:02 AM

This was just spoiled on MTGS.

Stillmoon Cavalier
1:wb::wb:
Creature - Zombie Knight (R)
Protection from white and black
:wb:: ~ gains flying until EOT
:wb:: ~ gains first strike until EOT
:wb::wb:: ~ gains +1/+0 until EOT
2/1

Looks really solid, It would need a deck to go in though.

It's one mana more expensive than the existing pump knights, so it could only really fit into a deck that is heavily white and black.

They can be cast as 2/2 @4 mana (only one specific), but may become 6/6 quite easily (brainstorm-> lightning bolt, for example)

That makes them 4/4.

Jeremy

07-03-2008, 10:12 AM

That makes them 4/4.

I know, I was meaning that they can grow quickly in thresh thanks to the quick chain of cheap spells.....

4/4 flier which is not dependant to graveyard is anyway decent for 4 right?

Even because it's sinergic with counterspells

Apex

07-03-2008, 10:25 AM

AHHH! I hate it so much.

Don't get me wrong, I love the card (Stillmoon Cavalier), 3 for Pro: STP, Pro: Darkblast and Flying/First Strike/Pump? All for 3 mana and non-legendary? It's a very nicely costed guy, will be great in my cube, but......

When the dominating creature is Tarmogoyf or red gobbos, pro:white and black seems so bad.

Will this even replace Hippie in deadguy? Probably not, because all the mana requires to pump this guy will probably be better spent on a Nantuko Shade. And without pumps, this guy will be pretty underpowered for a 3 mana 2/1.

Though he does block Tombstalker all day long. Maybe this guy will require his own deck?

Maveric78f

07-03-2008, 10:57 AM

A 4CC card cannot fit to thresh. Even Mystic Enforcer is too slow, but it is always protected against black and it does not need to wait before being 6/6 (in a thresh, when you have 4 manas, then you have 7 cards in graveyard).

Cire

07-03-2008, 11:35 AM

Evershrike :3::wb::wb:
Creature - Elemental Spirit
Flying
Evershrike gets +2/+2 for each Aura attached to it.
X:wb::wb: : Return Evershrike from your graveyard to play. You may put an aura card with converted mana cost X or less from your hand into play attached to it. If you don't, remove Evershrike from the game.
2/2

Seems cool if you get it into your graveyard and have Edge of divinity in hand or even unholy strenth or even better Rancor! you'll be getting a 7/7, 6/5, or 6/4 trampler for 1:wb::wb: respectivly, over and over again. Seems pretty solid.