[Deck] Elephant Stompy (formerly Elf Stompy) [Archive] - Page 2

Roman Candle

02-19-2009, 12:28 AM

I've been thinking about Natural Order/Progenitus recently, and I came to the conclusion that it's exactly what this deck needs. It's awesome vs. board control, and it wins the game in a hurry. Also, I've been debating the pros and cons of running maindeck Choke. In a highly developed metagame (read: blue metagame) Elephant Stompy could be a force to be reckoned with. The doubts I've been having about this deck are starting to vanish.

Maybe something like:

4x Ancient Tomb
4x City of Traitors
10x Forest

4x Spawnwrithe
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Elvish Spirit Guide
3/4x Briarhorn
2x Chameleon Colossus
3/4x Call of the Herd
1x Progenitus

4x Natural Order
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Chrome Mox
4x Garruk Wildspeaker
4x Tangle Wire

I wish there were more good creatures at 2G, but there aren't. Some number of Briarhorn, Colossus, and Tangle Wire could be cut for Choke/Trinisphere. Otherwise both go in the sideboard.

I've been working on the same thing, actually. My list (its only been goldfished so far, but meh)...

Threats:
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Spawnwrithe
3 Briarhorn
3 Garruk Wildspeaker
4 Call of the Herd
3 Rushwood Legate
1 Progenitus

Other Spells:
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Harmonize
2 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Natural Order

Mana:
4 Chrome Mox
3 ESG
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
10 Forest

Some of the numbers are rough (3 ESG, 3 Garruk) but I doubt its a huge deal. I really like Rushwood Legate in here, because it costs you zero mana an overwhelming amount of the time, and even if it doesn't, it still fits the curve. It also lets you Natural Order out of nowhere with only 4 open mana. That being said, a Gray Ogre is still a Gray Ogre, so it might not make the final cut.

I'm not sure whether I'm going to keep the Jitte's, but they seem like they really could give the deck some much-needed utility, and are fast with Rushwood.

I also really want maindeck Chokes, but I'm afraid of them being dead draws... at least Rushwood can still do something when the opponent isn't running Islands.

Mantis

03-12-2009, 05:58 AM

Couple of ideas: what about Saproling Burst? Sounds decent with Garruks Overrun basically creating an instant win.
Also I think Skyshroud Poacher + Deranged Hermit could be what this deck needs. It wins when you get to activate it. Also allows for like a toolbox, we could add like Nullmage Shepherd which in combo with all the tokens could be decent. That said, this approach doesnt particulary solve the big inconsistency issue.

I dont know about tangle wire it seems good but Chrome Mox forces a choice between Jitte and Wire and I would have to give the nod to Jitte.

Is Spawnwrithe really worth it btw? You really need Briarhorn or Garruks Overrun to get it going. I mean I could see it being insane sometimes but other times very unimpressive as its very easy to stop as we have no access to removal.

zabuza

03-12-2009, 07:30 AM

I´m considering on playing 4 loaming shaman maindeck (because it has 3 power and make goyfs (most played card on legacy) smaller and smaller) and playing survival of the fittest with the natural order_progenitus combo in it.

order is only 2gg casting cost, you can sacrify one of the spawnwrithe copies and with progenitus you can kill very fast.

Survival is for discarding progenitus when it´s in your hand and to search any crerature.resorce anytime.

What do you think about it??

Kuma

03-12-2009, 01:47 PM

I've cut Chameleon Colossus from my list entirely. With the addition of Natural Order, the deck has too many four mana cards. Right now I'm running Imperious Perfect to help ensure there are green creatures for Natural Order. Colossus is awesome, but Progenitus is so much better in the mid to late game.

Couple of ideas: what about Saproling Burst?

Way too much mana.

Also I think Skyshroud Poacher + Deranged Hermit could be what this deck needs. It wins when you get to activate it.

Way, Way too much mana.

I dont know about tangle wire it seems good but Chrome Mox forces a choice between Jitte and Wire and I would have to give the nod to Jitte.

Tangle Wire is incredibly strong. Spawnwrithe followed by Tangle Wire is gg. Choke + Tangle Wire = gg. Garruk lets you virtually ignore Tangle Wire. Tangle Wire plus Trinisphere... you get the point.

Is Spawnwrithe really worth it btw? You really need Briarhorn or Garruks Overrun to get it going. I mean I could see it being insane sometimes but other times very unimpressive as its very easy to stop as we have no access to removal.

Yes. Hell yes. Spawnwrithe is the second best creature in the deck after goyf. He ends games quickly if he isn't immediately stopped. You'd be surprised how often opponents can't block him early. Briarhorn, Tangle Wire, and Chalice at one make him even harder to stop.

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Three Garruk is criminal. The card is too powerful to run less than four. Even if Rushwood Legate can be played for free, a 2/1 with no abilities is not what this deck needs. I'd cut it.

Survival is for discarding progenitus when it´s in your hand and to search any crerature.resorce anytime.

What do you think about it??

I think if you're going to put Survival of the Fittest in Elephant Stompy, you should just play TEES or dedicated Survival instead.

evilfred

03-15-2009, 10:11 AM

Have you guys thought about Xantid Swarm main deck? What I mean is that Dragon Stompy got the moon effect to protect him. Playing a Green deck you can be very vulnerable to what your opponent play during your turn. Xantid Swarm can be played out the first turn and can be remove from the game for the Chrome Mox too.

With the addition of Progenitus and Natural Order to the deck, I think we need to be able to lock the table and protect ourself better. And same thing with the Blood Moon, they can be sided out if need be. Also Xantid Swarm can used like this:

Turn 1: Ancient Tomb + Chrome Mox + Xantid Swarm followed by a Chalice if you got one hehehe
Turn 2: Forest + Attack with Xantid Swarm + Natural Order (Sack Xantid Swarm here)
= Progenitus mouhahahaha!

I'm trying Werebear instead of Tarmogoyf. With the mana accel it provide it think it's going to be easier to play the chameleon, garruk and natural order.

So here how I'm going to playtest the deck:

Mana (26)
4x Ancient Tomb
4x City of Traitors
10x Forest
4x Elvish Spirit Guide
4x Chrome Mox

Threats (17 + 4 Xantid = 21)
4x Spawnwrithe
4x Werebear
2x Chameleon Colossus
3x Call of the Herd
1x Progenitus
4x Xantid Swarm
3x Garruk Wildspeaker

Lock and Progenitus Gear (13)
4x Natural Order
4x Chalice of the Void
3x Trinisphere
2x Tangle Wire

Sideboard (15)
3x City of Solitude
12x Insert "Meta Card" Here

I play in a CounterTop heavy meta. Let me know if I'm full of sh*t! hehehe

Kuma

03-15-2009, 03:15 PM

I took my latest Elephant Stompy list to my Friday legacy tournament and ended up splitting for first with a 4-1-1 record. Here's my list:

10x Forest
4x Ancient Tomb
4x City of Traitors
4x Chrome Mox

4x Elvish Spirit Guide
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Spawnwrithe
4x Briarhorn
3x Call of the Herd
2x Imperious Perfect

4x Natural Order
1x Progenitus

4x Chalice of the Void
4x Tangle Wire
4x Garruk Wildspeaker

Sideboard:

4x Trinisphere
4x Choke
4x Krosan Grip
3x Pithing Needle

Round one: Domain Zoo

Game one: I play an early Spawnwrithe, but it gets Lightning Bolted. He beats me down to 11 with Kird Ape and Wild Nacatl, but I take two to resolve Natural Order for Progenitus. He swings his Nacatl and Ape into Progenitus and I block the Nacatl putting me at 7. I swing with Progenitus and drop a Tangle Wire which seals the deal. He showed me his hand after the game and he would have killed me if I didn't drop the Tangle Wire. Tangle Wire forced him to choose between playing burn or attacking instead of both.

I don't have any sideboard so we go to game two.

Game two: I get off to a rocky start taking hits from a Kird Ape. A Tidehollow Sculler takes Natural Order out of my hand, but I stabalize with a goyf followed by an Imperious Perfect and a Call of the Herd token. He gets mana flooded and I'm able to win with a creature horde by evoking Briarhorn to let Spawnwrithe trample over his Kird Ape.

1-0

Round two: OneBigSquirrelGod playing Armageddon Stax

Game one: I don't have a lot of details about this game. All I remember is that I resolved Natural Order turn three and he didn't have an answer for Progenitus.

-4 Chalice of the Void, +4 Krosan Grip

Game two: I drop an early Spawnwrithe that gets removed with a Swords to Plowshares. He's stuck on a Flagstones and a City of Traitors, so I drop a Tangle Wire which buys me two turns. I play another Spawnwrithe which gets Oblivion Ringed, and he drops a Ghostly Prison. I draw Krosan Grip and I'm holding Grip, Chrome Mox, City of Traitors and two Natural Orders. I Grip his Oblivion Ring to get my Spawnwrithe back, play City of Traitors and Chrome Mox imprinting Natural Order, and play my last Natural Order for Progenitus. He can't find a Runed Halo or Armageddon effect and dies in two swings.

2-0

Round three: Rg Goblins

Game one: I drop an early Spawnwrithe and a Call of the Herd token. He leads with Mogg Fanatic and Goblin Piledriver. I hit with Spawnwrithe netting a token, but he drops Warchief and takes me to 9. I Natural Order for Progentius to his surprise, and a Tangle Wire seals the deal again.

-4 Chalice, +3 Pithing Needle, +1 Krosan Grip

Game two: I mull to six and keep an iffy but playable hand of City, ESG, Mox, Natural Order and two Tangle Wires. He leads with a Fanatic and I draw a third Tangle Wire. To make a long story short, the Tangle Wires buy me a lot of time, but I can't swing the game from his fast start and he overwhelms me.

+4 Chalice, -3 Pithing Needle, -1 Krosan Grip

Game three: I'm forced to mull to six again, but I get a ridiculous hand. Turn two Spawnwrithe, two goyfs on turn three and Natural Order on turn four. He never had a prayer.

3-0

Round four: yawg07 playing Ur Painter

I get paired down and give him the win so he can make the playoffs. We play for fun since he wants to see Elephant Stompy in action after hearing about its earlier exploits.

Game one: I mull to six again, but drop threats on turns one two and three and overwhelm him before he can set up the combo.

-4 Briarhorn, -2 Imperious Perfect, -1 Tangle Wire, -4 Natural Order, -1 Progenitus, +4 Krosan Grip, +4 Trinisphere, +4 Choke

I decided to board out the Natural Order combo since his deck was creature light, removal light and loaded with countermagic. The Briarhorns came out because he didn't have creatures big enough to be worth ambushing. I'd be interested to hear opinions on these board choices since this is my most controversial sideboarding of the night.

Game two: He leads with Grindstone and I lead with Chalice at one which he lets resolve. Turn two he plays a Painter's Servant, and I smile because I'm holding a Krosan Grip. I debate which of his artifacts to Grip, and decide on the Grindstone. I was fairly sure he didn't run bounce, and my Chalice already shut off his blasts. I pass the turn and he drops a third land (whew!) and swings with Painter taking me to 15. I try to play two Tarmogoyfs, but the second one is Dazed. I play Garruk which is also Dazed, and swing with a now 5/6 goyf. I play Call of the Herd which makes goyf a 6/7 and take him to 7.

He plays Engineered Explosives at zero and decides to chump my goyf with his painter. Next turn I take him to one, forcing him to blow Engineered Explosives to stay alive. Next turn he topdecks Grindstone, but he was stuck on four mana and couldn't blow explosives and play and activate Grindstone even if he still had his painter. Goyf finishes the job.

3-1 since I gave him the win

Top four vs. White Weenie:

Game one: I drop a turn two Garruk off ESG and untap two lands to play Call of the Herd. He drops a True Believer and passes the turn. I play another Call of the Herd and untap two lands for a Tangle Wire. I swing taking him to 17. I make a beast next turn and swing taking him to 11. He's still stuck under Tangle Wire and I activate Garruk's ultimate ability and finish him off.

I don't sideboard. This turns out to be a mistake.

Game two: He drops a turn one Mother of Runes, and a turn two Soltari Priest. I drop a turn two Call of the Herd and plan on dropping a turn three Garruk plus beater. However, he plays Ghostly Prison on his third turn, which turns out to be even better when I top deck a Spawnwrithe. I have a swarm of creatures, most of which have to sit on the sidelines, and I can only get him to 14 before a Serra Avenger and the Soltari Priest finish the job. Along the way he Oblivion Rings something of mine and tells me he has Runed Halo for Progenitus.

-2 Imperious Perfect, -1 Call of the Herd, -1 Briarhorn, +4 Krosan Grip. I'm not going to make the same mistake twice.

Game three: I'm a little tight on mana, but I play an early Call of the Herd followed by Tangle Wire. He has a turn one Mother of Runes, but I keep it locked down with my first and later a second Tangle Wire. I beat him down to 2 before my Tangle Wires run out of steam. I haven't been able to play anything else because of my Tangle Wires, and he drops a Soltari Priest and a Serra Avenger and hacks away at my life points.

Along the way I resolve two Tarmogoyfs, but he plays a Runed Halo naming Tarmogoyf. Fortunately I'm holding a Krosan Grip. He plays a Silver Knight and a True Believer. On my turn I swing with two goyfs and he asks the rest of the store's players who are now eagerly watching our game if I can Krosan Grip Runed Halo before damage. They tell him yes, and he debates whether or not I have the Grip and correctly decides to chump both goyfs while blocking my Call of the Herd token with his Mother of Runes. He plays a second Mother of Runes and takes me down to 6.

He's got a Mother of Runes, a Serra Avenger, and his sick Mother of Runes untapped against my two goyfs and elephant. I swing with everything since that's my only option for victory. He messes up and decides to let one of the goyfs through and I respond by Gripping the Halo.

4-1

I split in the top two with yawg07, finishing 4-1-1, and we all play some EDH.

I considered cutting Tangle Wire, but it won me four games that night. It definitely belongs in the deck as a four-pack.

Imperious Perfects were underwhelming all night. I'm going to cut them for a Call of the Herd and an Empyrial Archangel.

Natural Order/Progenitus won me five games and it is definitely the MVP of Elephant Stompy. Before Progenitus, there was no reason to play Elephant Stompy. Now I feel confidant saying that there is a reason to play Elephant Stompy. Faerie Stompy has Force of Will and eight Chalices, Dragon Stompy has eight moons, and Elephant Stompy has Natural Order and Tarmogoyf.

I think we can take the deck to Established as soon as I write a primer.

evilfred

03-15-2009, 03:38 PM

Kuma

03-15-2009, 04:18 PM

First of all, good job on your top 2! As I was reading your post I noticed that you sideboarded the Briarhorn a couple time. Was it that useful? I mentionned Xantid Swarm today. I know it got some anti synergy with the chalice but I think it could be a great way to use the Progenitus combo inside this deck. Either Xantid or City of Solitude MD to protect ourselves against countermagic, discard, etc.

Tell me what you think!

Thanks!

Briarhorn's main purpose is to ambush creatures during combat. Its secondary purposes are to help Spawnwrithe get over blockers and win goyf wars. It has some other miscellaneous uses like evoking to remove Bridge From Below.

Briarhorn wasn't particularly useful in that tournament, only winning me one game where it helped Spawnwrithe get over blockers. Still, he definitely belongs in the deck. He's invaluable versus aggro and aggro-control, although Briarhorn number four is a weak slot.

I took him out versus Painter because its biggest creature was 2/2. I took out one versus White Weenie because its biggest creature was 3/3 and multiples tend to be redundant.

I don't like Xantid Swarm. It's not a threat on its own, and it makes the deck too reliant on Natural Order. Trinisphere and Choke fill much of Xantid Swarm's purpose by hurting countermagic and the decks that run it. The same goes for City of Solitude. Keep in mind that City of Solitude makes Briarhorn terrible.

Remember, I won five games with Progenitus and five games without it. It's not the end all be all of the deck.

You're probably better off boarding out Natural Order against counter heavy, creature light decks like Painter and MUC.

evilfred

03-15-2009, 05:05 PM

That make a lot of sense. Then I think 3x Briarhorn should be good. I playtested with it a lot and I rarely used it. Maybe I got too exited by the Natural Order/Progenitus combo hehehe.

City of Solitude have to be in the sideboard at least I think. What was your sideboard?

Kuma

03-15-2009, 05:21 PM

I edited my tournament report to include my list and sideboard.

There is no reason to run City of Solitude. Trinisphere and Choke do the same thing and much more. They also don't hurt Briarhorn.

Soldar

03-15-2009, 05:33 PM

Alright, I've been working on Elephant Stompy (people in the local meta found it hilarious for me to unload early Garruks) and I've had a fair amount of success (Split top 2 of a 14 man tournament, watched my friend nearly win a dual at a side event for a Time Walk tournament). And after reading the success of Natural Order + Progenitus, I'm going to test that version out. Here's what I was working with:

4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
10 Forest
4 Chrome Mox
4 Elvish Spirit Guide

4 Spawnwrithe
3 Briarhorn
4 Call of the Herd
4 Garruk Wildspeaker
4 Wickerbough Elder

4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
3 Sword of Fire and Ice
2 Sword of Light and Shadow
3 Harmonize

Board:
4 Krosan Grip
4 Giant Solifuge (Testing slot)
3 Tsunami
4 Loaming Shaman

A couple comments about card choices:
Wickerbough Elders have been fantastic in the main, they take care of so many problems. The Swords are perfect for the curve most of the time, and they randomly win you entire matchups. Harmonize lets you throw away an extra card or two to put down a Turn 1 Trinisphere, and lets you reload.

Tsunami vs. Choke - I tried out Choke, but since the deck usually has to take out win conditions to board in more disruption, Choke gives them too much of a chance to destroy Choke, whereas the combination of Tsunami and Trinisphere will take them almost out of the game entirely.

Right now, I'm testing out Giant Solifuge in the board, versus decks heavier on the creature control (Landstill is prominent in my meta).

When I get my hands on some incredibly overpriced Natural Orders I'm going to try out Progenitus and Empyrial Archangel.

zabuza

03-16-2009, 06:15 AM

evilfred

03-16-2009, 10:58 AM

Well you can always throw Progenitus to a Chrome Mox. I don't think that the natural order combo is the only reason to play this deck. We run a high number of threats in the deck so Progenitus is not the only solution.

Manaplasm:
Card type: Creature
Creature type: Ooze
Power/Toughness:1/1
Casting cost: 2G

Card text: Whenever you play a spell, Manaplasm gets +X/+X until end of turn, where X is that spell's converted mana cost.

Tower Above:
Card type: Sorcery
Casting cost: 2g2g2g

Card text: ((2g) can be paid with any two mana or with G. This card's converted mana cost is 6.)
Until end of turn, target creature gets +4/+4 and gains trample, wither, and "When this creature attacks, target creature blocks it this turn if able." (It deals damage to creatures in the form of -1/-1 counters.)

I don't think we need a creature that become a threat sometimes. So I don't like that one. For Tower Above, I think Briarhorn is still better since we can use it as a beater too. And the GGG mana cost is not what we want.

Soldar

03-16-2009, 11:26 AM

I've given the Tower Above argument some thought, and I think it's worth testing in some builds. If you're running Tarmogoyf, you probably won't need anything besides Briarhorn to get through damage. I cut Tarmogoyf from my build, as it rarely got larger than a 2/3 on my own, and it ended up being incredibly underwhelming in the early game.

In non-Tarmogoyf builds, you've got to have another way to circumvent a large Tarmogoyf - I'm running Briarhorns and Swords, which is more than enough for my 3/3's to get there, since I'm usually not fueling the graveyard.

Granted, I'm unfamiliar with the Tangle Wire builds, and I think that'll give enough of an edge versus some decks to let Spawnwrithe take over.

zabuza

03-16-2009, 11:27 AM

The thing is that green hasn´t any solution to creatures. With tower avobe plasm becomes 11 trample wither and "destroy a creature an opponent controls". I think it´s a good thing. And you can tower a Spawn Writhe to make him pass through enemy´s army.

Beside of that plasm is going to grow almost every turn. Call of the herd (x2) and any other spell you play makes this guy bigger and bigger. also it fits perfectly with its 3cc (2G).

Order is awesome with progenitus, but without it, what creature are you going to look for?? a goyf?? a writhe?. I´m not sure about it, but i think is necessary a way to discard progenitus when needed. I thought on using 1 gigapode so you can order it (when neccesary) and trade the 6/1 shroud to discard progenitus for ordering it later. What do you think about it?

thanks.

Atwa

03-16-2009, 11:52 AM

The thing is that green hasn´t any solution to creatures.

(Uyaro) Bee Sting and Hail Storm would like a word with you :smile:

Kuma

03-16-2009, 11:59 AM

I tried with order and progenitus but there is a reason because i´m not sold on it. If you draw progenitus you can´t discard it in order to order for it. It will remain in your hand till you won or die.

Kuma did you notice it. In your tourney this situation occurs? How can you discard progenitus to combo with the order??

I drew Progenitus once in eleven games. The amount of power you gain by running Natural Order is well worth drawing Progenitus once in a while. I'm going to add an Empyrial Archangel to my list for when I need to swing damage races. It will also help ensure I always have a Natural Order target.

what do you think about playing manaplasm with tower above in order to kill opponent´s creatures and to make lot of damage. I think plasm belongs to this deck because you always are playing spells that pumps the ooze and its cc3 is really good in this deck. (tower above is easily playable in this deck).

Why on earth would you run Manaplasm + Tower Above when you could run Natural Order + Progenitus/Empyrial Archangel?

I've never tested Manaplasm, but I can see it being awesome once in a while and poor most of the time, especially with Tangle Wire.

Tower Above is garbage. It's dead if you don't have a creature and its mana cost means you won't be able to use it to boost Spawnwrithes early. Briarhorn >> Tower Above.

The thing is that green hasn´t any solution to creatures.

Briarhorn

With tower above plasm becomes 11 trample wither and "destroy an untapped creature an opponent controls".

Fixed that for you.

Order is awesome with progenitus, but without it, what creature are you going to look for?? a goyf?? a writhe?. I´m not sure about it, but i think is necessary a way to discard progenitus when needed. I thought on using 1 gigapode so you can order it (when neccesary) and trade the 6/1 shroud to discard progenitus for ordering it later. What do you think about it?

It's not worth a slot in the deck to discard Progenitus the rare time you draw it. Just add an Empyrial Archangel.

Zork

03-16-2009, 01:57 PM

Kuma

03-16-2009, 02:35 PM

The problem with Archangel is that it is also a dead draw. I have been testing a single copy of Krosan Tusker as an alternate Order target that is also not dead in the hand.

I don't know if it will end up being better than just running a second prog/angel, but I figured I'd give it a try.

Archangel may be a dead draw, but it can swing damage races when you're low on life. It's a far, far more attractive target than Krosan Tusker.

Besides, Krosan Tusker is a dead draw 99% of the time if you're looking for a creature.

eq.firemind

03-16-2009, 04:31 PM

Hi people!
The first thing I want to say I'm glad to see people desinging interesting funny-to-play decks because I'm realy sick of Force of Will + Tarmo dominating the format. So the second thing is how to replace the fucking ugly big peace of I dunno what (Tarmo) in this interesting and funny-to-play deck? Our main problem is the lack of low-costed cool creatures/spells. We have Spawnwrithe, we have Trinisphere/Tangle Wire, but we really need the third one (Call of the Herd is bad 3cc + awful 4cc, but it's 1 card, so we still play it). And here we realy have no choice but to use that STRONG/FAT shit-color (yes, I hate Tarmo :tongue: ) monster for 2 mana.
Not long ago I've played with the original green stompy. That deck had 9 or 10 lands, lot 1cc dudes, pumping, berserk AND... Invigorate+Kavu Predator. It was fun almost casual (IMHO) deck with the very cute silly 32/32 suicide stampeding kavu on turn 2 (sometimes:smile:).
So my idea is to try that old-school Invigorate+Kavu in chalice/order shell. Let's look a little closer on Kavu. It's a 2/2 trampler for 2 (not so bad) that knocks out opponent's life gain (if any). Now Invigorate. +4/+4 for 3 smells bad, BUT! Here is the Chalice Aggro! 3cc is the best cc for us! And if we run Tangle Wire (not Trini) main, this card can help us to make realy funky tricks:cool: . And it's +4/+4 now and +3/+3 later for free with Predator. So here comes my version of Nature Stompy (IMHO this name suits the deck best)

/ Lands
4 Ancient Tomb
10 Forest
4 City of Traitors

// Creatures
2/3 Briarhorn
4 Spawnwrithe
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Garruk Wildspeaker
1 Progenitus
1/0 Empyrial Archangel
4 Kavu Predator

// Spells
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Chrome Mox
2 Call of the Herd
4 Tangle Wire
4 Natural Order
4 Invigorate

// Sideboard
SB: 4 Choke
SB: 3 Krosan Grip
SB: 4 Pithing Needle
SB: 4 Trinisphere

4 Tarmo -->4 Kavu Predator, here's no question (I don't want to say it's better this way, but it's boring to watch over that tarmowars).
But what to cut for Invigorate? Other Chalice Aggro decks run 6-8 equipment. I think that Invigorate must be somewhere in the equipment slot (no freaking metal, let's smoke some funny grass :wink: ). So I decided to play 4 invigorate + 2/3 Briarhorn in that slot. I want to run 3, but again, what to cut? Need to test (the list is about 20 min old:smile: ), but I think I'll try to cut Empyrial Archangel cause i never used 2 Orders in 1 match with original list. That's all for now. Sorry for somanywords and good luck to all with our green monster:smile:

tsabo_tavoc

03-16-2009, 05:51 PM

I think we can take the deck to Established as soon as I write a primer.

Congratulations! I am looking forward to your primer!

Natural Order better fulfills the roles formerly done by Umezawa's Jitte. However, the deck is still not very consistently putting a Goyf/Spawn/Elephant on table and casting an Order next turn. What about running 9 Forests+2 Fetchs or 8 Forests+4 Fetchs?

4 Tarmo -->4 Kavu Predator

I like your name suggestion Nature Stompy very much:smile: You hate Tarmogoyfs. Well, but he just rocks and replacing him just makes your deck more casual.

gvbarroso

03-16-2009, 06:15 PM

NATURE STOMPY (cool name)
I was thinking about this archetype some weeks ago, but I came up with something more like a Winter Orb/Tangle Wire/Quirion Ranger kinda thing. The list hasnt been tested yet, but it goes like

CREATURES
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Quirion Ranger
4 Wall of Roots
4 Goyf
2-3 Wickerbough Elder
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
2-3 Briarhorn
4 Garruk

OTHER SPELLS
3 Cursed Scroll
4 Tangle Wire
3 Winter Orb
3 Jitte

LANDS
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
10 Forest

SB
4Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
4 Pithing Needle
3 Krosan Grip

The deck is meant to work directly on the mana base of the opponent, since you can easily get rid of the tangling and the orb effect with llanowar/ranger/wor. I personally see the elves as a much better option than mox in this list. Curse and Jitte are in to increase the aggro match up. Since the mechanics of the deck, I dont think Choke will be needed in the sideboard. Any comments?

Carabas

03-16-2009, 06:44 PM

I think the thing with tower above that people are missing is that it costs any of: GGG, 2GG, 4G, or 6. 2GG is a cost that could help an early spawnwrithe, so is 4G. It would be a sideboard card for sure, but I can see it having some use in a meta with a lot of aggro.

Phantom

03-16-2009, 08:38 PM

Seems like Empyrial Archangel is a sideboard card. Glad to see some solid work here. I'll have to test the Tangle Wire and see if it's worth it.

Kuma

03-16-2009, 10:49 PM

I'd board the Archangel, but the remaining 3cc options are so underwhelming.

My current list is the same as the last one I posted except -2 Imperious Perfect, +1 Call of the Herd, +1 Empyrial Archangel.

I'd love to see what you've been working on, Phantom. Haven't seen a list from you in a while.

Phantom

03-17-2009, 07:00 AM

Sadly I haven't been able to do much since Progenitus came out mull the deck over in my head. I was thinking of running 4 (?) fetches and a Dryad Arbor to help out natural order. That could fill the last spot. Or you could mainboard a Grip, which is almost always useful. Plus there's useful :2::g: cyclers like Wildsize or just straight up Ice Storm.

(I supppose there's always Gilt-Leaf Ambush which is a token generator and possible removal)

zabuza

03-18-2009, 01:06 PM

I´m testing manaplasm (yes, i love it so much) with wildsize and it´s going very good for me. Plasm gains +5/+5 and trample wiz the wildsize (and you draw a card ;). The cost of this pumper is very good (2G) and it´s useful to make sapwnwrithe pass trough.

The tanglewires are wonderful, the buy for me lot of time to beat with writhe or to find order. The only thing is that if only we can play anything to recover them ;)

I´m playing with 2 genitus too because if you draw one, you have another to look for, and i don´t like archangel (it´s easy to an aggro deck like goblins burn or stompy to kill her).

what do you think about this everybody?

Wereodile

03-18-2009, 02:07 PM

I just played this deck last night minus the Natural Order but with the Tanglewires and let me tell you the wires are annoying! I was playing Dragon Stompy and my friend landed back to back wires and an early spawnwrithe and that was pretty much it.

Kuma

03-18-2009, 02:41 PM

zabuza

03-19-2009, 06:58 AM

Nothing is wrong with briarhorn (i use a full set in the deck too) but i´m plaing plasm with a couple of sizes too.

Everybody knows that plasm hasn´t trample(chumpblockable) and usually is a 1/1 if you don´t play any spell BUT there are very few decks that can put a weene to block plasm every turn, and when it attacks usually makes from 4 to 10 damage in a single attack so opponent must be afraid of it. Okay, when yo play anything he can response killing plasm but sizes and briarhons (and moldervine cloak if you want to) to make plasm a nightmare for everybody.
Beside of that, as you are playing wires, usually opponent hasn´t creatures able to block so plasm becomes a fast way to end games.

why don´t you like it?

Kuma

03-20-2009, 10:58 AM

When I asked you what's wrong with Briarhorn, I was referring to your trying to run every conceivable pump spell. The problem with pump spells is that they're usually card disadvantage and often dead draws. Briarhorn doesn't have this problem as it's attached to a creature and can ambush creatures in combat for even more card advantage.

I don't like Manaplasm because it requires other cards to be decent. Most spells in the deck cost three, so on average you're going to swing with a 4/4 Manaplasm. Also, with Tangle Wire out it can be difficult for you to cast spells making your Manaplasm a pathetic 1/1.

Hungry Spriggan also swings as a 4/4, has trample, and doesn't suck if you don't have any spells to play. Spriggan is a better card than Manaplasm, and he's borderline unplayable.

I'm going to run Elephant Stompy again tonight with some super-secret tech. Stay tuned!

yawg07

03-20-2009, 11:03 AM

Super secret tech, eh? I'll have to stay on my toes, then :D
The addition of Natural Order really made the deck take off, I wonder what the new tech is.

Kuma

03-20-2009, 11:16 AM

Don't worry. It's not nearly as exciting/good as Natural Order. But hopefully it turns a few heads tonight. ;)

eq.firemind

03-20-2009, 07:04 PM

First and less important thing: deck's name discussion again. People, let's call it Nature Stompy. It's just the name our deck wants (even decklists without Natural Order).

Now the deal. I've done some online testing with various decklists of Nature Stompy (about 80 games with very random-skilled players and VERY different decks - you know MWS) trying different creatures, pumps and other stuff, so IMHO the Must Have in this list are the following cards:

10 Forest
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Chrome Mox
Pretty clear about this :smile:

4 Spawnwrithe - first main stomper, best 3cc creature available
4 Natural Order - with, of course (playing Terminator 2 Intro music here:smile: )
1 Progenitus - second main stomper, best 4cc creature, spell, whatever. :wink:
3/4 Briarhorn - utility card, fills many holes: helps to stomp, ambush creatures, acts as a creature by itself, has variable mana cost, kills Bridge from Below.
4 Tarmogoyf - hate to say, but The Shit-Colored rules even here. I'm still trying to build a deck without it, but it seems there's nothing better than Goyf.
4 Garruk Wildspeaker - Fills many holes: accelerates us, creates beaters, pumps. Most lists should run full set, but I, howewer, run 0 (explain later)
3/4 Call of the Herd - bad 3cc, awful 4cc, but it's one card, so we play it. O, and it feeds Goyf:smile:

4 Chalice of the Void - main disrupt
4 Tangle Wire - utility/disrupt, helps Spawnwrithe to clone, buys time to stomp, extra cool with Garruk.

I think, Kuma's list must be taken as the "classical" competitive decklist of Nature Stompy (netdeckers, you're welcome :smile: ). If anyone wants to start/change/improve the deck, start with Kuma's decklist or my sketch as a basis fof further developmend.

Now about my own expirience.

CREATURES
Manaplasm - too random to be useful, sucks to land destroy/mox hate/burn. No
Hungry Spriggan - Tested this freak a little more. With pump from the list below he can eat 4/5 goyf, he can survive burn spell and after that he still can eat opponents' face. Need to test more in builds with 3 Briarhorn+3/4 Invigorate. NO if you run < 5 pumps, MAYBE if you run 5 or more.
Loaming Shaman - 3/2 for 2G is weak, but he hurts Legacy's top decks, slams Ichorid to ground... need to test more (main problem is that we run Goyf too). Maybe
Wickerbought Elder - this guy can really help us to deal with problem cards in bad matchups (and much more),can save sideboard slot(we can run 3 Krosan Grip instead of 4) but he costs 4 mana. You must have a real reason not to run Garruk main (I have it, see below), but if you have that reason, run theese guys. Otherwise, NO.
Kavu Predator - my pet creature. Good with Invigorate, sucks otherwise. And not better than goyf:frown: . Maybe the same, but not better (wait... I've heard that before... Where could I heard it?:smile: )
Woodfall Primus - good second maindeck target for Order. Gives us a chance to win g1 against Moat, Ornithopter with Cranial Plating and same shit, is hard to kill (we have Chalice for Swords and most of the time we WANT him to die one time to get card advantage), can be hardcasted with Garruk's help, has trample (stomps great with Briarhorn and pumps, if any), sometimes you can shock your opponent with Order => Primus(kills something) => Order for Primus (persist, kills something else) = > Progenitus. Need more test, but for now I say "YES" for 1 Fat Tree maindeck

PUMPS
Equipment is not very good 'cause we have weaker disrupt than other chalice aggro, so IMHO it's better to rely on pumps here. All 4cc pumps are sucks. All of them. Too unreliable and completly sucks to land destroy/mox hate. And our pumps IMHO MUST be +4/+4 to let our Spawnwrithe pass through 4/5 Goyf AND instant for our combat tricks, so we have little choice.
Ferocious Charge - not bad, but we have better options
Primal Boost - Uncounterable "my Goyf is goyfer than yours" + draw 1 is exiting. Need to test more in lists with Goyf
Fistful of Force - too unreliable, even with our high curve.
Invigorate - I've found this to be surprisingly strong card in this deck even without Kavu Predator mainly for it's ability to jump out of nowhere and kick balls like Briarhorn do. IMHO the best pump for the deck.
Moldervine Cloak - It was a mistake here. Need to test more...

STUFF
SB Sity of Solitude - We have Trini and Choke. No
Gilt-Leaf Ambush - I was pretty sure it sucks, and it did. Sometimes kills creature, rarer kills 2 creatures, often is Grizzly Bear for 2G. Too random. And pump opponent's Goyfs too:smile:. NO
Snakeform - Works if you have a creature to block. Pumps from the list above work just the same, but they help to kill opponent too. NO

We're Chalice Aggro, we mulligan far more often than other decks, so we can't run cards that are sometimes cool and sometimes sucks (like Manaplasm, Gilt-Leaf Ambush or Snakeform) if we want to have some stability. Don't even try cards that would bring more randomness in the deck, or you'll find yourself to be your worst enemy!

I think I will put 2 Loaming Shaman (the only Graveyard hate avaliable) and 1 Woodfall Primus(see above) in open slots of base list (4 shaman, -1 Call of the Herd if you expext many Loams AND Ichorids).

<will update when I will have time to test. Also, will be very glad to see more ideas for testing>

My current decklist is:

// Mana
4 Ancient Tomb
10 Forest
4 City of Traitors
4 Chrome Mox
4 Elvish Spirit Guide

// Main caliber
4 Spawnwrithe
4 Natural Order
1 Progenitus

// Other Guys
3 Briarhorn
4 Kavu Predator
3 Wickerbough Elder
3 Loaming Shaman

// Utility and Disrupt
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Tangle Wire
4 Invigorate

// Sideboard
SB: 4 Choke - Blood Moon for U-based (read: 65% of meta) decks
SB: 3 Krosan Grip - don't need 4 because of Elders
SB: 3 Pithing Needle - mainly against Deed and EE
SB: 4 Trinisphere - mainly against combo
SB: 1 Empyrial Archangel - second Order target, very useful in some matchups (like Burn).

First, this is an attempt to make goyfless more-or-less-competitive list, so I've started by replacing goyf with Kavu Predator and adding 4 Invigorate. After a bunch of testing I've found that with Invigorate I don't need Garruk's first ability very often, and his ultimate become less attractive. Next thing is that he creates tokens so EE and Deed, witch own us heavy, can own us even more. And Garruk has 4cc . In my list his abilities weren't so cool anymore so I decide to exclude him and try Wickerbough Elder as another utility/threat. And he finds his home in my deck after saving my ass from some EE/Deed and eating some Dreadnoughts and Moats(things that Garruk can't do)! So I can add 1 Empyrial Archangel to SB and I'm quite happy with that changes. Now I think to try Loaming Shaman instead of Call of the Herd. He has the same power, don't feed enemy's goyf (remember, I will not run goyfs anymore), but screws it and some other things too...

I've found 1 matchup, where Order =>Progenitus will not help a lot, and it's Ichorid. So I just removed 3rd Call of the Herd and put Loaming Shaman there to order for it. The game aginst Ichy becomes not so hard, cause I have 8 ways to screw him (3 Briarhorn, 1 Loaming Shaman, 4 Order => Shaman). The more I play Shaman, the more I like him. He helps screw Ichorid, he wrecks Loam, he hurts enemy's goyf, so I will play 3 of it instead 3 Call of the Herd.

Kuma

03-21-2009, 03:01 PM

First and less important thing: deck's name discussion again. People, let's call it Nature Stompy. It's just the name our deck wants (even decklists without Natural Order).

:laugh: I've never seen so much debate over a deck's name in my life. I'm fine with Elephant Stompy, but I do like the ring of Hydra Stompy, or NO-Genitus (Stompy). If and when I write a primer, I'll see about the name.

<Excellent Elephant Stompy shell>

I think, Kuma's list must be taken as the "classical" competitive decklist of Nature Stompy (netdeckers, you're welcome :smile: ). If anyone wants to start/change/improve the deck, start with Kuma's decklist or my sketch as a basis fof further developmend.

I'll admit, as I got to the list, I scrolled down slowly expecting to see another poorly thought out, terrible list with indefensible card choices, and was pleasantly surprised. You've hit the nail on the head. That's the shell of Elephant Stompy, with 1-3 open slots.

<Creature and Pump breakdown>

I agree with most of this, but I don't think Wicker-Bough Elder has a place in this deck. In order to have any kind of consistency, we need to keep the four cost spells to a maximum of eight. Garruk and Natural Order currently occupy those slots, so IMO anything that costs four or more (and doesn't get out of your hand for three mana or less, e.g. Briarhorn) has to be better than Garruk or Natural Order. Wicker-Bough Elder is a fine card, but it's not good enough to justify the hit in consistency. If you want maindeck artifact and enchantment removal, just run Krosan Grip.

Invigorate + Kavu Predator is cute, but there's no way it's better than running Tarmogoyf.

I've found 1 matchup, where Order =>Progenitus will not help a lot, and it's Ichorid. So I just removed 3rd Call of the Herd and put Loaming Shaman there to order for it. Game one becomes not so hard, cause I have 7 ways to screw him (3 Briarhorn, 4 Order => Loaming Shaman). The more I play Shaman, the more I like him. He helps screw Ichorid, he wrecks Loam, he hurts enemy's goyf, so I will to play 3 of it instead 3 Call of the Herd.

There are a few other matches where it's not great. I've been siding it out against Painter because you don't need the clock and they have tons of countermagic to stop it. It's not great versus Ichorid, but if they try to slow roll you it can be good. Maining some number of Loaming Shaman is a good idea if you expect lots of Ichorid.

Tournament Report

My list:
10 Forest
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Chrome Mox
4 Elvish Spirit Guide

4 Spawnwrithe
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Briarhorn
3 Call of the Herd
3 Gilt-Leaf Ambush

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Garruk Wildspeaker
4 Tangle Wire

4 Natural Order
1 Progenitus

Sideboard:
4 Trinisphere
4 Choke
4 Krosan Grip
2 Pithing Needle
1 Empyrial Archangel

I decided to try out Gilt-Leaf Ambush in the flexible slots. It was terrible all night, but as you'll see I mostly played against combo making it hard to evaluate the card. On the positive side, Gilt-Leaf Ambush is another potentially very damaging combat trick. It also creates two creatures for Natural Order and Tangle Wire, and adds Tribal and Instant to the yard for goyf, two types we lack. The clash is a tiny bit of filtering in a deck with zero filtering and card advantage. On the downside, creating two 1/1s, even at instant speed, isn't very exciting. And we'll only win the clash about 50% of the time, even with our high mana curve.

Round one: yawg07 playing Belcher

I win the die roll (thank God) and play a turn one Spawnwrithe off an Ancient Tomb and an ESG. On his turn, he plays a Belcher, but he doesn't have the mana to activate it. I swing with my Spawnwrithe and play a Forest. Using another ESG, I cast Natural Order for Progenitus. To reduce his outs, I drop the Chalice I topdecked at zero. He fails to hit mana on his turn, and on my next turn I drop a Tangle Wire sealing the game. Progenitus and company finish him off.

Yes, I raced Belcher and won.

-3 Gilt-Leaf Ambush, -3 Briarhorn, -4 Tangle Wire, +4 Trinisphere, +4 Krosan Grip, +2 Pithing Needle

Game two he makes sixteen Goblins turn one on the play. I have zero answers in my deck so I scoop and we go to game three.

Game three I mull to six and keep a hand of Ancient Tomb x2, ESG, Trinisphere, City of Traitors, and Krosan Grip. I lead with a turn one Trinisphere and he never recovers. Eventually I pack the table with two Trinispheres, Chalices at zero and one, Needle naming Belcher. All this while holding three Krosan Grips. Eventually I hit creatures and a goyf and ESG kill him.

1-0

Round two: SCABS (Storm Combo And Belcher Stuff) It's basically TES without Lion's Eye Diamonds.

I lead with a Spawnwrithe off a City and a Mox. He plays a Chrome Mox and Ponders. I drop a Tangle Wire and Spawnwrithe does its thing.

-3 Gilt-Leaf Ambush, -3 Briarhorn, -3 Call of the Herd, +4 Trinisphere, +4 Krosan Grip, +1 Empyrial Archangel. I'm not certain he's playing storm at this point, so I bring in Grips in case he's playing his Shared Fate deck.

Game two he leads with Gemstone Mine and passes the turn. I play a Forest and remove ESG to play a Chalice at one. He ignores my Chalice at one and makes 12 Goblins with Empty the Warrens. Once again, I have no answers and I scoop.

-4 Krosan Grip, +3 Call of the Herd, +1 something. Now I know what he's playing.

Game three I lead with a Chalice at one off an Ancient Tomb. He plays a Gemstone Mine and passes the turn. I play a Forest and an ESG. He discards Ponder and passes the turn. I play another Forest and Natural Order for Progenitus. He tries to combo off, playing a Diminishing Returns as his sixth spell with no mana floating. He doesn't get the cards he needs off Diminishing Returns, and the Hydra eats him.

2-0

Round three: UR Painter (the same list from my last report)

I play a Forest and remove ESG for a Chalice at one. He plays an Island and passes the turn. I play a City and a Spawnwrithe. He plays land and passes the turn. I drop a Tangle Wire, and when he doesn't counter it, I ask him about his lack of countermagic and he tells me he kept a bad hand. I play Gilt-Leaf Ambush in response to my Tangle Wire trigger and it's all downhill from there for him.

-4 Natural Order, -1 Progenitus, -3 Gilt-Leaf Ambush, -3 Briarhorn, -1 Call of the Herd, -1 Garruk Wildspeaker, -1 Tangle Wire, +4 Trinisphere, +4 Krosan Grip, +4 Choke, +2 Pithing Needle. I'm not sure if the Needles were too much, and I'd be interested to hear opinions on this sideboarding.

Game two I keep a slow hand that has only three Forests for mana. He plays a Painter's Servant turn two, Trinket Mages for Grindstone turn three, and when I fail to draw a Krosan Grip, he decks me on turn four.

Game three I lead with a Chalice at one off an Ancient Tomb. He plays a land and an Engineered Explosives at zero. I Grip his Explosives on my turn and he plays another one and immediately activates it. Lucky for me I have another Chalice in hand and this one sticks. I resolve a Trinisphere, a Choke the turn after that, a Tangle Wire the turn after that, and finally I play a Garruk which is Forced. He tells me he didn't have the blue card all that time. Lucky me, although I had half my sideboard in my hand. I double up on Trinispheres and Chokes, eventually draw a goyf and kill him with it.

3-0

We had a five round tournament, and so I draw my next two matches to get into top eight. I was paired with Ugbw Thresh and Ichorid. I play the games anyway, and the deck performed pretty well against Thresh, but I don't have any kind of formal information written down. Ichorid trashes me because I didn't have any kind of graveyard hate. Ichorid is almost nonexistent in my meta, so I usually don't board for it.

3-0-2

Top eight: Wg LoamSlide

I have an explosive hand game one where I power out three Garruks one after the other making beast after beast. I beat him down to seven, but he resolves Astral Slide and removes around 12 of my tokens with it. Loxodon Hierarch and an Eternal Witness finish me off.

What. A. Beating.

-2 Chalice of the Void, -3 Call of the Herd, -2 Gilt-Leaf Ambush, +2 Pithing Needle, +4 Krosan Grip, +1 Empyrial Archangel

Game two I resolve a turn one Spawnwrithe and pray he doesn't have Swords to Plowshares. He doesn't. A few Briarhorn shenannigans later he's dead.

Game three he cycles and casts Life from the Loam a few times. Meanwhile, I beat him down to ten with a Beast token from Garruk and a Briarhorn. Unfortunately, he stabalizes with a Loxodon Hierarch, and another Hierarch, an Eternal Witness, and two Tarmogoyfs later, I'm dead. My creatures aren't big enough to fight back. I congratulate him on his top four and head home.

3-1-2

I had hoped the Natural Orders would improve the board control matchup, but I didn't see one in any of my three games versus LoamSlide. Still, I feel better about the board control matchup than ever since the addition of Natural Order.

Tangle Wire continues to be amazing. Run four.

The only real debate remaining is what to run in the 1-3 flexible slots. I'm going to keep trying out different cards and see what happens.

zabuza

03-22-2009, 09:49 AM

i´ve tested manaplasm and altough i love it it has proven that sometimes is a dead 1/1. So i´m going to replace it with another thing. Spriggan is not bad but is not good too. My list is like:

10 Forest
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Chrome Mox
4 Elvish Spirit Guide

4 Spawnwrithe
4 Briarhorn
3/4 Call of the Herd

4 Chalice of the Void
3 Garruk Wildspeaker
4 Tangle Wire

4 Natural Order
2 Progenitus

The main issue is that the deck needs another great creature (like spawnwrithe). What in hell are you thinking not playing tarmogoyf??, you´ll be thinking. The main reason not plying goyfs is because everybody plays them. I don´t like playing the same cards as everybody does (counterbalance, goyfs, ....). I like playing unusual decks that can beat down the "tier1" decks. Nature Stompy is one of those decks.

I think creatures in this deck must trample or evasion (like spriggan, genitus or writhe because everybofy plays goyfs, tombstalkers, dreadnought, or tribal creatures) so ours must have any type of evassion.

i´ve tested any other creatures like feral hidra (with no trample is not good), loaming shaman (is nice against loam or ichorid and make opponent´s goyfs smaller, but i´m not very sold on it.

any other cards i´ve tested are :

Snakeform: Cantrip and removal, but only if you can block and sometimes is a dead draw.

Moldervine cloack: is not bad. makes your spriggan bigger or your writhe a monster and you can recover it when needed. beside of that pumps goyfs when recovering. i don´t know what to do wit it.

Plasm: is not good in this deck because is nothing strange to have our hand empty and waiting a good topdeck.

Harmonize: Too much slow, is not good for the deck.

Loaming shaman. is nuts in some matchups and horrible in others. a 3/2 for 2G is not a good trade.

what do you think guys about what i´ve wrote. it´s a must to play goyfs? are cloaks a good choice in this deck?

Kuma, can you write a primer ;). I´ve read the two reports from the tourneys you have played with the deck and they are very instructive. Can you explain anything more about matchups, strengts and failures of nature /elephant stompy? what are your feelings about it?

Lot of thanks.

tsabo_tavoc

03-22-2009, 11:10 AM

I had hoped the Natural Orders would improve the board control matchup, but I didn't see one in any of my three games versus LoamSlide. Still, I feel better about the board control matchup than ever since the addition of Natural Order.

Enjoy reading your report! Too bad that not a single piece of Natural Order has shown to bring you to Top4.

-4 Natural Order, -1 Progenitus, -3 Gilt-Leaf Ambush, -3 Briarhorn, -1 Call of the Herd, -1 Garruk Wildspeaker, -1 Tangle Wire, +4 Trinisphere, +4 Krosan Grip, +4 Choke, +2 Pithing Needle. I'm not sure if the Needles were too much, and I'd be interested to hear opinions on this sideboarding.

I would cut the Tangle Wires and keep the Needles in the side and remain the combo or the beaters in the deck. If you are going to meet such deck in your tournament, add 1 Gaea's Blessing to your SB.

The only real debate remaining is what to run in the 1-3 flexible slots. I'm going to keep trying out different cards and see what happens.

Are you still fonding of Call of the Herd after the inclusion of Gilt-Leaf Ambush? Both do well against Control and are nearly useless against Combo. However, the mana-efficient two creatures and goyf-pumper are very valuable to the not-quite-in-our-favor Aggro matchups! As you mentioned, the Surprise effect and Scry 1 effect are also great! I tend to believe the Call of the Herds are the flexible slots and I am playing 1 Forest, 1 Krosan Grip, 1 Woodfall Primus (he shines against almost every deck without S2P) over them now.

Tangle Wire continues to be amazing. Run four.

I fail to recognize it in this report since all three times you cast it, Trinisphere could have done the job better. However, I know and respect that you dislike Trinisphere save for some very restricted scenaries.

Kuma

03-22-2009, 05:36 PM

it´s a must to play goyfs?

Yes. It's the best beater in the format and we're a green aggro deck. Do the math.

Kuma, can you write a primer ;). I´ve read the two reports from the tourneys you have played with the deck and they are very instructive. Can you explain anything more about matchups, strengts and failures of nature /elephant stompy? what are your feelings about it?

I will write a primer eventually, but I need to play the deck more. I've got a pretty good feel for why the cards are in the deck and what role they serve, but I couldn't write a very good matchups section right now.

Enjoy reading your report!

Glad to hear it!

I would cut the Tangle Wires and keep the Needles in the side and remain the combo or the beaters in the deck. If you are going to meet such deck in your tournament, add 1 Gaea's Blessing to your SB.

I left the Tangle Wires in mostly because of their good synergy with Choke and Trinisphere. But they can also keep the Painter Combo in your opponent's hand instead of on the table.

There's only one Painter deck in my meta right now. I've just ran into it two weeks in a row. I don't think Blessing is necessary when there are already so many cards in our board that are great against Painter.

Needles might have been excessive, but I'd have probably kept in the Call of the Herd and Garruk, which weren't huge in the matchup.

Are you still fonding of Call of the Herd after the inclusion of Gilt-Leaf Ambush? Both do well against Control and are nearly useless against Combo. However, the mana-efficient two creatures and goyf-pumper are very valuable to the not-quite-in-our-favor Aggro matchups! As you mentioned, the Surprise effect and Scry 1 effect are also great! I tend to believe the Call of the Herds are the flexible slots and I am playing 1 Forest, 1 Krosan Grip, 1 Woodfall Primus (he shines against almost every deck without S2P) over them now.

Call of the Herd is in the deck for the control matchup because of its ability to create two 3/3s with one card. It also helps smooth out consistency by giving you something to play on two different turns. It's not one of the stronger slots in the deck, but I only ran Gilt-Leaf Ambush as a test. I'm not ready to permanently include it in the deck yet, and certainly not over Call of the Herd. Gilt-Leaf Ambush is only good against control if you can throw a deathtouch elf in front of a goyf. That's pretty situational. I'd rather have Choke and Trinisphere vs control, because those cards are fantastic there.

Woodfall Primus isn't a bad idea as a Natural Order target, and you could conceivably cast it with Garruk out. I'll have to give it some thought. But it wouldn't be anything more than a one-of.

I fail to recognize it in this report since all three times you cast it, Trinisphere could have done the job better. However, I know and respect that you dislike Trinisphere save for some very restricted scenaries.

You're absolutely right, but keep in mind I played against combo all night. Last week's report does a much better job of highlighting Tangle Wire's strengths over Trinisphere.

There's almost never that much combo in my meta. Usually there's one player at most.

eq.firemind

03-23-2009, 05:26 AM

Updated my huge post above with new tested cards.

zabuza

03-24-2009, 05:25 AM

Hi again,
I´m now testing hungry spriggan and is not bad in the deck. It provides trample and with wires and briarhorn is a very good beater. The only problem is that in the oppoent tur is very easy to kill him so i´m not very sold on it yet.

Another card i thing would be very useful in this deck is elspeth because provides flying and more paower to writhe and can generate creatures to fight with. The only problem is that cost 2WW. The only way to play it is splashing
for white (wich gives us lot of tools to improve our worst match ups) using horizon canopys and hybrid cards to pitch to chrome mox or something like that.

The problem of splahing is that our manabase is bad enough so more non-basic lands could be a disaster.

Another options i´m considering now is Wild Mongrel (to discard genitus if neccesary), arrogant wurm and any other cards, but none of them seems good enough to be played in this deck.

I don´t like Woodfall Primus. Is not easy at all to play it without natural order (although you have garruk is difficult too) and can be sworded away, exiled away, ..... so is not good in this deck at all. I would use archangel, simic sky swallower or something like that instead of the "tree" like the second target for order.

To eq.firemind: With moldervine cloak your spawnwrithe is 5/5 trampler (because cloack gives it +3/+3) and goyf usually is a 4/5 (instant, land sorecery and creature) as we don´t play enchantments or tribal and our garruks anre very well protected. Artifact (as an used Tangle wire can make goyf grows 5/6 but is not very usual (and you have brairhorn to kill this pet). In this situation you can play another cloak and your 8/8 replicating machine will kill any goyf on its way and put a little brother into play.

Has anybody any idea how to improve this deck a few more.

eq.firemind

03-24-2009, 06:04 AM

2-color Chalice Aggro IMHO is impossible.

Spriggan with summary 5-7 pumps in deck can eat some attackers and eat face later...

We have Chalice of the Void, so Swords => Primus is not very often. But Tree survives Diabolic Edict, Perish and the likes. Need to test more...

My mistake with Cloaks, thanks, fixed...

Yui

03-24-2009, 05:17 PM

I have tested this deck and its really fun to play.

my build is a little bit different then the last couple of builds.

3 trinisphere
3 tangle wire
4 cotv

2 call of the herd
2 Natural Order
1 Progenitus

3 wickerbrought elder
4 Briarhorn
4 goyf
4 garruk
4 spawnwright

4 chrome mox
4 esg
4 ancient tomb
4 city
10 forest

I really like the trinisphere main. I helped me allot of times. Haven't played this deck on any tournament. I'm not sure about the 2 Natural order i'm thinking of playing 3 but not sure.

zabuza

03-25-2009, 05:21 AM

I was looking for something relevant in the net and i found a deck similar to our deck that uses doubling season to destroy the opponent. With this enchantment we put 2 counters on garruk each turn, put 2 beasts for each garruk counter, put 2 spawnWrithe for each time the writhe deals damage, put two elephants for each call of the herd we play and so on. The only problem is that it doesn´t work well with tangle wire. Also it cost 4G (is not very cheap) but the only G in the cost makes it playable.
What do you think guys about it?

eq.firemind

03-25-2009, 05:56 AM

We want to cast our threats/disruption on turn 1, 2, 3. After that, we can cast Doubling Season, but it will give advantage only after the second time it triggers. That's too slow. And it's dead topdeck most of the times. We have 1-2 Order targets, wich are also dead draws, so we really don't want more. Don't be your worst enemy!
If you want some fun with counters, try Gildern Bairn. Its 1GG is not hard to play, but you can have a LOT OF FUN with Chalice, Garruk, and you can create very hardbreakble lock with Tangle Wire. Just tap lands for 2G, tap Bairn to Wire and untap Bairn to double Wire's Counters before you remove one. Wait for next turn (opponet will tap a lot), repeat. If opponent is not fully tapped, repeat (now Wire has some crazy amount of counters). Now just stomp with untapped Bairn. Repeat :cool:

zabuza

03-25-2009, 12:06 PM

But i´m not sure the Gilder Bairn is for this deck. It easily combines with garruk and tangle wire (amazing), but is only a 1/3 creature (easy to remove) . I´ll have to test it, but i´m not sure how good is it. If only we can combine it with another card in the deck in order to maximize sinergy .....

Another option i´m considering is cold eyed selkie. It cost 1GG too, has islandwalk (unblockable most of the time) and with cloak or briarhorn is a drawing machine so we can solve one of the deck´s problems with this little guy.

May be 2 Biarn 2 Selkies would be an interesting option.

The main problem i can see is that we have spawnwrithe, spriggan (if you play them), Gilder (if you play them) and cold eyed and all of them dies with pyroclasm or similar spells (not talking about Firespout or similar that deals 3 damage and kills everybody on the table). Only goyfs, Garruk and genitus survive to this so....

Another problem is the lack of drawing, hoping lot of times that topdeck bring us what we need.

Any thoughts about that??

eq.firemind

03-25-2009, 01:45 PM

Hey, I was joking about Bairn! And it's 1/3, so it survives Pyroclasm, but with far less goblinz in meta you'll not meet 'Clasm-like spells often, so that's not the point anyway. Bairn needs another deck with far more synergy to try to be playable.
My list for now is:

// Mana
4 Ancient Tomb
10 Forest
4 City of Traitors
4 Chrome Mox
4 Elvish Spirit Guide

// Creatures
3(4) Briarhorn
4 Spawnwrithe
1 Progenitus
3 Hungry Spriggan
3 Call of the Herd
1 Loaming Shaman - Ichrohid, Loam hate
1 Wickerbough Elder - MD art/ench hate, optimal after tests. Not Primus 'cause Tree sucks against Dreadnought.

// Utility
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Tangle Wire
4 Natural Order
3 Invigorate (2 Primal Boost/Ferocious Charge/Moldervine Cloak)- still don't sure about this slot...
3 Garruk Wildspeaker

// Sideboard
SB: 4 Choke
SB: 3 Krosan Grip
SB: 3 Pithing Needle
SB: 4 Trinisphere
SB: 1 Empyrial Archangel

My attempt was to try some kind of Order toolbox for some shitty situations where our UberHydra will not help. There are Dreadnought, Ichorid, huge Terravore/Knight of Reliqary, Moat and some more. The key was to add not-dead-topdeck creatures. Loaming Shaman is 3/2 for 3, Elder is card advantage (very rare he is not), can eat Mishra's Factory (that's why I play him over Indrik Stomphowler), both are easy-playable.

About 1GGs. Most of the times you can't cast them on T1, so count them as nearly 4cc cards. But to run more than 8-9 4ccs is to loose a huge amount of stability, and both Garruk and Order are better 4ccs. So again, DON'T BE YOUR WORST ENEMY!:smile:

Kuma

03-25-2009, 02:32 PM

I really like the trinisphere main. I helped me allot of times. Haven't played this deck on any tournament. I'm not sure about the 2 Natural order i'm thinking of playing 3 but not sure.

Trinisphere in the main is decent, and in certain metagames could be a great choice for the flex slots. As for Natural Order, run four. I've won at least five games when I've resolved Natural Order for every one I've lost.

I was looking for something relevant in the net and i found a deck similar to our deck that uses doubling season to destroy the opponent. With this enchantment we put 2 counters on garruk each turn, put 2 beasts for each garruk counter, put 2 spawnWrithe for each time the writhe deals damage, put two elephants for each call of the herd we play and so on. The only problem is that it doesn´t work well with tangle wire. Also it cost 4G (is not very cheap) but the only G in the cost makes it playable.
What do you think guys about it?

Doubling Season costs five mana, does nothing by iteslf, and doesn't immediately win the game in combination with another card. No thanks.

About 1GGs. Most of the times you can't cast them on T1, so count them as nearly 4cc cards. But to run more than 8-9 4ccs is to loose a huge amount of stability, and both Garruk and Order are better 4ccs. So again, DON'T BE YOUR WORST ENEMY!:smile:

Truth Bomb. 1GG cards have to be counted as four drops with an extra one damage tacked on (mana burn). Any card costing 1GG will have to be phenomenal to make the deck.

As much as I love Cold-Eyed Selkie, phenomenal is too strong of a word for it.

Phantom

03-25-2009, 08:41 PM

Kuma (or anyone running a similar list), can you give me a feel of how the deck is playing now, with NO and Tangle Wire? Specifically, can you tell me what it's struggling against that you'd like to improve?

I ask because I'd like to help (and get a better feel) but I have no testing time these days.

Edi: Do any of the Green suspend cards intrigue anyone?

eq.firemind

03-26-2009, 08:06 AM

After more games it semms that I need some more things to bye time to stomp/order/whatever. And I want some GY hate. AND I NEED 4 Trinisphere in deck when playing G2/G3 against storm/belcher. So I'll try this changes:

// Mana
4 Ancient Tomb
10 Forest
4 City of Traitors
4 Chrome Mox
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
// Creatures
4 Spawnwrithe
1 Progenitus
2 Hungry Spriggan
4 Call of the Herd
1 Loaming Shaman
1 Wickerbough Elder
// Multi-purpose
4 Briarhorn
3 Garruk Wildspeaker
4 Natural Order
// Utility
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Tangle Wire
2 Trinisphere - still hurts many Tier decks, even after turn 1-2 'cause we run Tangle Wire, also upgrades our G1 vs combos.

// Sideboard
SB: 4 Choke
SB: 3 Krosan Grip
SB: 3 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Trinisphere
SB: 1 Empyrial Archangel
SB: 2 Tormod's Crypt - Will help against Ichorid, Loam, Breakfast and some random crappy reanimators:tongue:

The main problem is that we have almost no way to affect opponent's gameplan. We just hope to stomp 'em in earth while they're slowed with our Chalice/Wire/Trini. Our brother Dragon Stompy has backbreaker (Moon) AND Toasters (Arc-Slogger or jumping dragon), our sister Faerie Stompy has the answer-to-all (Force of Will) AND Bombers (equipped flyers). We have ONLY Stompers (NO-genitus, Spawnwrithe). That's the shit. And I can't find a way to solve it for now...

Hey, Suspend sucks hard and so do Morph!

zabuza

03-26-2009, 11:49 AM

Well, several things i´ve been thinking about.

We haven´t anything to deal with creatures so if we play against faerie stompy we can only rely on genitus(if we can play and is not countered) because our creatures don´t fly and because we can´t deal with a sower of temptation that steals our writhes, .......

The same from threads of disloyatie and similar ones.

The only way i can find to solve that is playing masticore (wich is bad but can kill sower) and can make us to discard a genitus we have on hand. This is not a good solution but what can we do?? Playing hurricane is a worst of everything so....

Beside of that they have ancient tombs and cities so in second game choke is not as powerful as other times uses to be. At the end faerire stompie is a bad match-up i suppose but need more testing.

The reality is that we can´t affect opponent's gameplan so we need to end the game as fast as possible.

i´ve been testing gilded biar (wich in one game was awesome ;) ) and cold eyed selkie but the 1gg casting cost is prohibitive. It´s a pity because troll ascetic is good in landstill, zur,... matchups but it cost 1gg. AWFUL.
I´ve thought on playing mox diamond (a couple at least) so we can reach the 1gg cos fastly and improve the situations in wich you have a city on play and others in hand. What do you think about it??

What do you think about playing Thornweald Archer to kill tombstalkers, sowers,........

i´ll be waiting for your answers.

Kuma

03-26-2009, 03:33 PM

Kuma (or anyone running a similar list), can you give me a feel of how the deck is playing now, with NO and Tangle Wire? Specifically, can you tell me what it's struggling against that you'd like to improve?

Well, the deck's a lot faster since adding Natural Order, that's for sure. We've also got a stronger late game because of it.

One of the nice things about Tangle Wire is that you can pretend to be Stax, especially post board. Tangle Wire almost never slows us down and is almost always a pain in the ass for our opponents. It also makes Spawnwrithe a lot scarier.

So far I haven't had many struggles. Survival lists have been a bit of a pain, but I'm not really set up to board against them. I can tell you that the TEES matchup almost always comes down to who casts Natural Order first, and they've got a slight edge.

I haven't had the chance to test this against Landstill/ITF to see how much the Natural Orders help. I'd also like to get in more testing agaist Thresh. If we can't at least 50/50 with Thresh and Landstill, we'll never be more than a niche deck.

Do any of the Green suspend cards intrigue anyone?

Eh, not really. They're mostly late game cards in an early game deck (Durkwood Baloth and Giant Dustwasp) or an effect we don't need (Search for Tomorrow and Hypergenesis). Nantuko Shaman seems like our best bet, but it's weak and unexciting.

evilfred

03-26-2009, 04:25 PM

eq.firemind: The main problem is that we have almost no way to affect opponent's gameplan. We just hope to stomp 'em in earth while they're slowed with our Chalice/Wire/Trini. Our brother Dragon Stompy has backbreaker (Moon) AND Toasters (Arc-Slogger or jumping dragon), our sister Faerie Stompy has the answer-to-all (Force of Will) AND Bombers (equipped flyers). We have ONLY Stompers (NO-genitus, Spawnwrithe). That's the shit. And I can't find a way to solve it for now...

Then if ours only plan is to stump, we should consider adding Jittes/SoFI/SoLS. At least in the sideboard.

Here's an exemple:
// Sideboard
SB: 4 Choke
SB: 3 Krosan Grip
SB: 3 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Trinisphere
SB: 1 Empyrial Archangel
SB: 2 Umezawa's Jitte

zabuza: What do you think about playing Thornweald Archer to kill tombstalkers, sowers,........

This I think it's purely a meta call but not that bad of an idea.

Kuma

03-26-2009, 04:52 PM

What do you think about playing Thornweald Archer to kill tombstalkers, sowers?

I think Thornweald Archer would be a defensive card in an offensive deck.

Then if ours only plan is to stump, we should consider adding Jittes/SoFI/SoLS. At least in the sideboard.

Equipment isn't a terrible idea for the last slots. It's good with Tangle Wire, and could potentially solve some of our problems with fliers and certain decktypes.

But at the same time Swords aren't very good without evasion. And we already eat aggro decks for breakfast. Natural Order --> Progenitus solves most of the problems that equipment would too.

I think the last slots should belong to pump (pseudo removal plus fast damage), or a control effect (Trinisphere or Choke depending on the meta). When Wizards prints another excellent 2G beater, the debate over the final slot will probably end.

evilfred

03-26-2009, 09:56 PM

Kuma: I think the last slots should belong to pump (pseudo removal plus fast damage), or a control effect (Trinisphere or Choke depending on the meta). When Wizards prints another excellent 2G beater, the debate over the final slot will probably end.

Alara Reborn is gonna be all gold card........

Anyway I went to a tournament today (27 peoples) and I finished 3rd!
Here's the Top 8
Players: 27

Rounds: 3

Top8

1. UW Landstill, Ugo R. (9)
2. Next Level Control, Pierre-Marc D. (9)
3. Nature Stompy, Frederic L. (9)
4. UWb/g Landstill, Yan L/ (7)
5. BUG Thrash, Francis D. (6)
6. Death and Taxes, Steve G. (6)
7. 4c Dreadstill, Luc P. (6)
8. Imperial Painter, Jonathan V. (6)

2-1 Scepter/Chant: First game was a breeze. Second got a little complicated when he played a Magus of the moat. With no creature removal this was lost. The 3rd game progenitus turn 3 ended the deal.

2-0 Planar Chaos Pre-constructed: Ok................ (he played that as a joke) nothing to add, OWN the guy all the way (Progenitus turn 3 second game hehehe)

2-0 UGB Thresh: First game chalice at 1 and and tangle wire set the game and the guy scoop (I had 4 Spawnwrithe on the board). Second game same thing.

Here's the list I played:
Mana (26)
1x Dryad Arbor
9x Forest
4x City of Traitors
4x Ancient Tomb
4x Chrome Mox
4x ESG

Combo (4)
1x Progenitus
3x Natural Order (My 4th one is coming soon! :D)

Creatures (18)
4x Spawnwrithe
4x Briarhorn (That card shined!)
1x Loaming Shaman
1x Wickerbough Elder
2x Hungry Spriggan
2x Wearbear (Fixed my mana sometimes, never got threshold)
4x Call of the Herd

Lock (12)
4x Trinisphere (I love it MD)
4x Tangle Wire
4x Chalice of the Void

Sideboard:
2x Pithing Needle
2x Umezawa's Jitte
3x Krosan Grip
3x Choke (Only got three and nobody wanted to trade them)
3x Thornweald Archer
2x Tormod's Crypt

evilfred

03-27-2009, 10:39 AM

Hey guys somebody just suggested a card that could be nice in the sideboard.

Seedtime:
Card type: Instant
Casting cost: 1G
Card text: Play Seedtime only during your turn.
Take an extra turn after this one if an opponent played a blue spell this turn.

That could be a way to draw their attention after they countered something. We could totally bait them with this and play bigger spell the next turn. Anyway again it's just a suggestion.

http://sales.starcitygames.com/cardscans/MAGJUD/seedtime.jpg

Phantom

03-27-2009, 10:58 AM

I would never run seedtime over City of Solitude, which I would never run over the things we already run to screw blue (Chalice, Trini, Choke).

Also, why run a Dryad Arbor and no fetches?

@ pump: I always wanted to try Stonewood Invocation in a deck due to its insanity. I wish it cost :2::g:. Wildsize is probably better as it cantrips, but split second cards that give shroud are amazing. I just can't shake the idea of invocating a Spawnwrithe.

Also, with Natural Order in now, it seems like Indrik Stomphowler would be better in the Wickerbough Elder slot as Elder requires :2::g::g::g: to hit something the turn NO is cast.

evilfred

03-27-2009, 11:07 AM

Phantom: I would never run seedtime over City of Solitude, which I would never run over the things we already run to screw blue (Chalice, Trini, Choke).

Also, why run a Dryad Arbor and no fetches?

1. I would even add Tangle Wire to the Chalice, Trini, Choke lock. Then I guess you're right.

2. I figured that a singleton dryad arbor would not change much.

3. And I don't know if running fetch would be that good in this deck...

4. Indrik Stomphowler is not a bad idea. But with the Wickerbough you can wait to trigger his ability.

eq.firemind

03-27-2009, 12:18 PM

Also, with Natural Order it seems like Indrik Stomphowler would be better in the Wickerbough Elder slot as Elder requires :2::g::g::g: to hit something the turn NO is cast.
Wickerbought Elder is cool by himself. I want to play more than 1 MD (3 is perfect in my meta with Enchantress and Moat controls/StaX), but 4cc slots are full. Indrik is better as Order target, so yes, I'll run beast instead of Elder. But if I could free 1 more 4cc slot, it'll be 2 Elders for their ability to kill Mishra's Factory and put opponent on nerves(the best part of theese guys, one match opponent landed 3 moats g2 just to die to NO=>Empyrial Archangel :cool: ).

Kuma

03-28-2009, 02:43 PM

I played Elephant Stompy again on Friday. I decided not to write a report since the metagame was really weird. There were three White Weenie decks, one Elves!, one Aggro Elf, one Burn, one Enchantress, one Belcher, one It's the Fear, one Merfolk, and myself playing Elephant Stompy.

I split for first place. And I beat ITF. Twice. In a row.

They were some seriously epic games. I lost both game ones since there's nothing in the main deck that can deal with Vedalken Shackles, Pernicious Deed, and Engineered Explosives.

Our first game three might be the most epic game of Magic I've ever played.

Things that happened:

- My opponent killed Progenitus twice. The second time he blew a Pernicious Deed for 10.

- I burned through three Garruks making beast after beast. I drew the fourth.

- Every Engineered Explosives and Pernicous Deed in his deck ended up in his graveyard. One of the Deeds was used twice thanks to Eternal Witness.

- We were both at one life for at least six turns.

- I killed him on turn three after time was called. He had two 7/8 goyfs and an Eternal Witness. I had an Elvish Spirit Guide and three beast tokens. Even that was nerve-wracking since if I swung with everything and he had a Diabolic Edict or a Swords to Plowshares I would lose. Still, a draw would have kept me out of top four, and making another beast and passing the turn would have given him another chance to hit a creature, removal, or Academy Ruins.

So I swung with everything.

He laid his hand of two Fetchlands and Force of Will on the table and we shook hands after an epic battle.

The next card in his deck was Etched Oracle.

And I had to play him again in the first round of the playoffs.

Thoughts on the matchup:

- Even though I won twice, I'm not ready to call this a decent matchup. ITF has Vedalken Shackles, Counterbalance and enough three drops to make it relevant, Pernicious Deed, Engineered Explosives, and the ability to recur its board sweepers. Fortunately, we have Krosan Grip, Pithing Needle, and Choke in the board.

- Our game one is terrible. Things get much better games two and three.

- I boarded -4 Chalice, -3 Invigorate, -1 Tangle Wire, -1 Briarhorn, -1 Call of the Herd, +4 Krosan Grip, +4 Choke, +2 Pithing Needle.

- Garruk is fantastic. He sits on the board and is a pain in their ass over and over again.

- Natural Order really helps, but it isn't always enough. I think "Jenny" died four times in the six games we played.

Other thoughts:

I tried out three Invigorate in the open slots, and most of the time I sided them out or wished they were creatures. I'm starting to wonder if pump is a good idea. We really need a new 2G beater.

Running one Wicker-Bough Elder or Indrik Stomphowler as a Natural Order target is a bad idea. When I cast Natural Order, I want Jenny the 10/10 hydra with protection from everything, not a 4/4 beast or treefolk. If you really have problems with artifacts and enchantments in at least half your game ones, run three Krosan Grip in the main.

GGoober

03-28-2009, 09:18 PM

@Kuma, depends on the meta, 1 Stomphowler is crucial if your meta has a ton of Painter, and besides, there has been recent inclusions of Grips/Trygon in MD for many decks due to a safety against G1 matchups. For Elephant stompy, Elder and Stomphowler are solid beaters, so it's not that it's bad to run them as a run-off.

Here's my tournament report for today (10 players)

I placed 2nd with 3-1-1 record

Tournament 3 at Asgardgames, Houston: 03/28/09
1st place: Jeff - NO Elf Survival
2nd place: Chris Z - Natural Stompy (evolution of Elephant Stompy)

Participants:
Will - UR Painter
Eugene - Mono-red Goblins
Chris - Natural Stompy
Drew - Imperial Painter
Brian - UBw(r) ANT
Jeff - NO Elf Stompy
Becky - UGw Thresh
Joey - UGw Thresh
Lil' Chris - White Weenie
Nick - Faerie Stompy

Here's my report. Sorry for bad notes, but it's my 3rd ever tournament and 1st ever serious report.

Decklist:
Natural Stompy
Lands:
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
10 Forest

Creatures:
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Spawnwrithe
3 Call of the Herd (didn't see any in play today. WTH.)
3 Briarhorn (needed 4 copies. He's so amazingly good)
3 Hystrodon (he'll be cut, but I love him when he is unmorphed)
4 Garruk, Wildspeaker
4 Natural Order
1 Wickerbough Elder
1 Indrik Stomphowler
1 Progenitus

Artifacts
4 Chrome Mox
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Sword of Fire and Ice
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Tangle Wire (needs to be 4 copies for sure but no one has these for trade)

Sideboard:
3 Wickerbough Elder
1 Krosan Grip (would need 3, and cut down on Elder, but I don't have Grips with me)
4 Trinisphere (would probably drop to 3)
4 Choke (would probably drop to 3)
2 Pithing Needle
1 Hystrodon

MATCH ONE: Nick with Faerie Stompy
Easily the hardest matchup I can imagine for today.
Game 1: Flyers + Sowers is no good news for me. I won the die roll and opened with hystrodon, Jitte, Wickerbough Elder, Swords. He played EOT Pestermite and equipped with SoFI and swung me down to 8 in 2 turns. I resolved a Wickerbough Elder and had no free mana open. He proceeded to topdeck Needle and the game was over when I could not blow up SoFI. I would have recovered well with Jitte.

Game 2: Sideboard: +2 Wickerbough Elder, +2 Pithing Needle
The game opened with turn 2 Spawnwrithe. He played a Serendib Efreet and held back. I drop Wickerbough Elder and he sowers Wickerbough. I dropped another Elder and Jitte. He had Needle and decided to name Elder obviously. I proceed to beat with Spawnwrithe and Briarhorn pumped Spawnwrithe through Efreet's 4 Toughness adding some Jitte counters. Game ended shortly after Jitte ate the Sower.

Game 3: Sideboard: no changes although Needle on my Elder has almost screwed me up 2 turns.
I breathed a sigh of relief as he mulligans to 4 due to stompy pooping on itself. He leads with Turn 1 Island, Turn 2 Efreet. He FOWs my T2 Spawnwrithe. Amazing 4-card hand! I then drop another Spawnwrithe. He holds back to block with 1 card in hand. I drop Garruk next turn and untap, leaving 2 Forest and a Briarhorn. I swing my 2/2 trampler into his 3/4 Flyer. He blocks, and I Briarhorn. I told him he made a mistake to block even though it was a bad choice regardless (me untapping 2 lands was a hint I had Briarhorn). But I told him it would have been a lie anyway.
1-0-0

MATCH 2: Will with UR Painter
I thought it was an easy MU due to Natural Stompy's amazing Chalice + 3Sphere + Choke :P Turned out to be a close battle, much to Will's blind CB flips that countered 3 of my 3cc spells. He flipped CB 4 times in 2 games, and countered 3 spells, each of which are 3cc. WTH -_-

Game 1: He countered most of my relevant stuff that was affecting his strategy. He sneaks Painter Servant, and I try to bait his Red Blasts with Jitte, telling him Jitte is a threat to his deck. He keeps the blast and blasts my Elder. Drops Grindstone next turn and win. I told him it was the right decision since he already has Grindstone in his hand.

Game 2: I boarded in 2 Chokes, 3 Trinispheres and 2 Wickerbough Elders and boarded out 3 Call of the Herd and 1 Natural Order, 1 Garruk and 2 Hystrodon. He countered some relevant spells including a Trinisphere and Chalice. The game lasted till 5 turns, and I was afraid he would play out his combo in one turn. I played Tangle Wire, to buy some turn while beating with Spawnwrithe. He double dazed and I was glad that the plan paid off. I was expecting him to:
1. Double Daze: He won't be able to win in 2 turns, and I would kill him
2. FOW: That would give me hidden information he did not have the combo
3. Tanglewire resolves: I get 2 turns, and I'll win.
He eventually lands Jaya and Painter to block and possibly stall with Jaya blasts, but I hardcast Indrik Stomphowler, and eats his Painter ftw.

Game 3: I baited with Jitte and it resolves. I play 3spehre with 1 green open against Daze. In respond, he blindly CB and suceeds revealing Jaya. I play Garruk, who resolves. He resolves an EE @2 to blow up my Jitte while I follow with a SoFI, which he CB with Top revealing Fabricate. I ended up clocking him with 2 Beast tokens off Garruk and a Briarhorn
2-0-0

MATCH 3: Drawed into T4 with Becky with UGw Thresh
2-0-1

MATCH 4: Got to play Becky with UGw Thresh
Honestly, I was praying for this MU or Goblins instead of Imperial Painter. I'm scared of playing against opposing Stompy. Thresh should be a cakewalk, and it turned out to be so.

Game 1: Kept a hand of Chalice and Spawnwrithe. I opened with Chalice off a tomb. She dazes but I was prepared and ESG. She Forces. At least I got a bunch of goodies off her hand. She ponders for the next 2 turns, and drops a Top. I play EOT Spawnwrithe so as to equip Jitte the next turn. She gets Enlightened Tutors for Needle on Jitte. I drop a couple of Spawnwrithe and it ends shortly. She drew no creatures but StPed a Spawnwrithe during the game.

Game 2: I feel evil so: +3 Choke +3 Trinisphere, -2 Briahorn, -1 Wickerbough Elder, -1 Natural Order, -1 Garruk, -1 Hystrodon

I kept an insane hate hand of 1 Chrome Mox, 1 Tomb, 1 City, 1 Choke, 1 Trinisphere, 2 Spawnwrithe. I Chrome Mox and tombed into Choke while he Strand is in play. She obviously dazes, but I was baiting so I can resolve 3Sphere safely against her, at least daze-safe. She fetches for a plains, and I drop 3Sphere which resolves. This gives a sign to me that she is FOWless, and I drop Spawnwrithe which gets out of control again. Becky eventually realizes that she could have fetch for green sources to play Trygon but inexperience costed her some important gameplay. However, she couldn't have swung with the Predator since my Spawnwrithe would be free to breed happily. Overall, it is not an easy MU for Thresh. They have to counter: 3Sphere, Choke, Chalice@1, Spawnwrithe, Jitte and a lot more.
3-0-1

MATCH 5: Jeff with NO-Elf Survival
I joked to Jeff who today is Green's and Progenitus' day. If he Natural Orders, I can survive by Natural Ordering and letting Prog kill himself :P There's a way to deal with Prog after all! And we mused about how Green had no removal but to aggro out. I was fairly confident with my deck against his since playing first or having Jitte gives me some upper hand. I was wrong, and I should have mulliganed more aggressively.

Game 1: He gets 1st turn Llanowar Elves, and I play Forest go. He drops Quirion Ranger, and I play Spawnwrithe go. He drops Perfect, and from then on the game gets ugly. My tanglewires do nothing against him, and I drew a Jitte too late, while he beats me down with 2 Perfects, 1 Champion and a bunch of forest walking elves.

Game 2: He gets 1st turn Ranger, 2nd turn Priest. I got a Prog online on Turn 3, but he went: Savannah, Quirion, Tap Priest for 4, Survival, get Symbiote, play Symbiote, Untap/Tap Priest, play Entity. He could have forest walked me by grabbing Champion but made a play mistake. Regardless, he was at 8 when I swung in with Prog, and we shook hands and Jeff wins the match!
3-1-1

Comments with the deck:
- Briarhorn: Such an amazing card. He pushes Spawnwrithe through and is a 3/3 beater that ends game fast. He also blocks a 5/6 Goyf and kills it.
- Spawnwrithe: Won me 80% of the games today.
- Garruk: Dragon Stompy has Seething Song, Natural Stompy has Garruk acceleration and a good distraction against opponents. I usually don't worship the +1 untap ability even though it's his most useful ability in the deck. The fact that he poops 3/3 Beasts is a great ability since this deck just SWINGS with 3/3 bodies ftw.
- Wickerbough Elder: He's great, and I love the fact that he can activate in response, mI aking him useful against Factories, CB, Dreadnoughts. However, Pithing Needle is a problem. That's the reason why I run a 1-1 split of Stomphowler and Elder in the MD for possible NO targets.
- Hystrodon: I <3 you but you might be the first to go. 2 turns with GG for morphing is not a good curve for this deck. However, when he gets online, it's insanely good with 4 toughness and card-drawing power. SoFI makes him a house. I will continue running him simply due to his body and trample effect and card-drawing ability. I'll probably replace him with Goyfs when I get a set of Goyfs.
- Natural Order Progenitus: Only got him twice in the tourney. Haven't been too pleased, but I understand the random oops I win. If Jeff hadn't gotten that aggressive, I might have had that 2nd game.

I love this deck, and it definitely needs 4 Tangle Wires MD. I simply can't find 2 more.

zabuza

03-29-2009, 12:05 PM

Fisrst of all congratulations to all of you that plays elephant/nature stompy and are making top with the deck. I´m not have been able to use this deck in a tournament because i´m still witing my tangle wires to arrive but i´m still testing by MWS and with proxies in my habitual shop.

Tangle wire is a house in this deck. I don´t like Histrodones because thy are tooo slow and nowdays it´s body is not enough to survive in combat.

I´m testing again with hungry spriggan(instead of tarmogoyf, you know i don´t like goyf at all). They are not bad and if not answered thy are a fast clock to win. I´m thinking on playing in the 2 open slots maindeck a couple of loaming shaman because in my meta team america is usual and if you can clean the grave they can cast tombstalker and their goyfs are little to figh with our theats. But Still i´m not sure about it.

Because in my meta there is some team america and zurs i´ve decided to remove the cloaks from the deck and now i´m playing 2 krosan grips maindeck, but i don´t like them in main because in certain match ups they are dead. Perhaps i will use 2 elders in that place but still i´m testing.

I´ve increased the number of progenitus in 2 maindeck because we haven´t any form to manipulate our hand and i usually have not any luck because draw prog in the opening hand or very soon so i need to have another order target (and none is as good as hydra).

Any other reports or ideas about the deck.

evilfred

03-29-2009, 12:40 PM

I was thinking of running a singleton Thornling. Ok I admit Thornling is probably the worst of all the "ling's". First, let's look at it:

http://sales.starcitygames.com//cardscans/MAGCONFLUX/thornling.jpg

Haste for G: Might be useful if he's comming out with NO. But even then...
Trample for G: Not that bad! With his ability to pump for 1 it could be used as a finisher of some sorts.
Indestructible for G: That can be a real pain sometimes!
*********************************************************
There's a Tournament for a Beta Time-Walk comming soon in Montréal. I intend to run Elephant Stompy! I still got plenty of time to think about it but here's the list I will be testing with my team.

Mana
4 x Ancient Tomb
4 x City of Traitors
1 x Dryad Arbor
9 x Forest
4 x Chrome Mox
4 x Elvish Spirit Guide

Lock
4 x Chalice of the Void
4 x Tangle Wire
2 x Trinisphere

Combo
1 x Progenitus
4 x Natural Order

"Removal"
3 x Gilt-Leaf Ambush

Beasties
1 x Wickerbough Elder
1 x Thornling
3 x Briarhorn
3 x Garruk Wildspeaker
4 x Spawnwrithe
4 x Call of the Herd

Sideboard
2 x Pithing Needle
2 x Trinisphere
1 x Empyrial Archangel
3 x Choke
3 x Thornweald Archer
4 x Krosan Grip

There's still time to make a lot of change! Any suggestion?

*EDIT*

God, why do none of you run Loaming Shaman? When I ran Green Chalice Aggro, he was the MVP of everything ever. Shrinks Tarmogoyf, Removes Threshold, steamrolls Ichorid, Pre-emptively shuts off Tombstalker. Etc. Etc.

I guess you're right Tacosnape. Loaming Shaman is a kind of "removal" if you think about it. Then the question is where should it go. Here's the options for now (In my opinion):
-1 Thornling or,
-1 Wickerbough Elder or,
-1 Call of the Herd.
We could even remove all three of the above and run 3x Loaming Shaman MD...
Or put him in the sideboard.

Tacosnape

03-29-2009, 12:56 PM

God, why do none of you run Loaming Shaman? When I ran Green Chalice Aggro, he was the MVP of everything ever. Shrinks Tarmogoyf, Removes Threshold, steamrolls Ichorid, Pre-emptively shuts off Tombstalker. Etc. Etc.

Kuma

03-29-2009, 01:45 PM

God, why do none of you run Loaming Shaman? When I ran Green Chalice Aggro, he was the MVP of everything ever.

Hyperbole much? :wink:

Shrinks Tarmogoyf

We run Tarmogoyf. Granted, there will be moments when we don't have goyf, our opponent has goyf, and we have a Loaming Shaman.

Removes Threshold

A 3/3 Mongoose isn't at all scary for Elephant Stompy. And Mystical Enforcer is seeing less play than ever.

steamrolls Ichorid

It certainly can. If there were more Ichorid in my metagame, I'd probably run a few. One problem with running Loaming Shaman against Ichorid is that we'll rarely be able to race Ichorid. This means we have to have something in our hand to slow them down. Which means we may be taking lots of mulligans. Tormod's Crypt can always be played right away no matter what the rest of our hand looks like. Loaming Shaman requires 2G.

In Loaming Shaman's defense, there is the possibility that Crypt gets Chaliced or Needled.

If I wanted an anti-Ichorid package I'd run the fourth Briarhorn and 3 Crypt 1 Loaming Shaman in the board.

Pre-emptively shuts off Tombstalker.

Fair enough.

I may give it a shot in the open slots to see how it does. It's not like I've loved anything else I've put in there.

zabuza

03-30-2009, 04:21 AM

I don´t see tornling in the deck. Is very mana-intensive and doesn´t provide as anything. If you haven´t chalice at 1 it will be sworded or pathed and requires lot of green to start working.

Loaming shaman is not bad. To outrace ichorid is not enough because they can fill the grave again fastly.

The reality is that now (after alara reborn and probably after that due the entire set is multicolor) there isn´t anything better than what are we playing to fill the open slots in the deck.

Another problem is that 1GG is harder to obtain very often so cards like cold eyed selkie Gilded bairn, troll ascetic, Ohran viper and so are not playable in the deck (it´s a pity for sure) because all this cards are good enough to be played. The only solution I can think about is playing overgrowth to obtain GGG very easy or playing mox diamond in the deck too (but this option is very bad because the card disadvantage in the deck would be awesome).

thougths?

Soldar

04-02-2009, 09:54 AM

Local Tournament Report, 2-0-2 and then loss in the Top 8 with whatever we're calling this thing.

List:

4 Call of the Herd
4 Garruk Wildspeaker
3 Briarhorn
4 Wickerbough Elder
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Spawnwrithe

3 Harmonize
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
3 Sword of Fire and Ice
2 Sword of Light and Shadow
4 Chrome Mox

10 Forest
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb

Board:
3 Tsunami
4 Primal Order
4 Krosan Grip
4 Loaming Shaman

Report:

Round 1: 2-0 vs Aggro-Loam
Game 1: I get down a Spawnwrithe, and he plays a turn 2 Countryside Crusher. I equip the Spawnwrithe with a Sword of Fire and Ice, and he loses in short order.

Boarding:
-3 Chalice of the Void -1 don’t remember
+4 Loaming Shaman

Game 2: Pretty much the same as the first, Sword of Fire and Ice is so good.

Round 2: 2-1 vs Death and Taxes
Game 1: He plows and removes Spawnwrithe, and kills off Elephant tokens with Flickerwisp, it seems like a nightmare. After he gets Mangara online with Karakas, I concede to losing a relevant permanent a turn.

Boarding:
-3 Trinisphere
+3 Krosan Grip
Game 2: He mulligans, and keeps a hand relying on Aether Vial, so I Wickerbough it when it’s at 1 counter, saying “Back where I’m from, we pay mana for spells!” He’s relatively manascrewed from here, and can’t get enough threats online for fighting against elephants.

Game 3: He mulligans, and keeps another hand based on Vial – so again, I Krosan Grip it. He doesn’t get back in the game from there.

It’s a 4 round tournament and a top 8, so I can ID from here, but we play for fun anyway.

Round 3: ID with Merfolk, but when we play the match for fun (2-0)
Game 1: He’s on the play, and mulligans to 6, and then I mulligan to 5.

He opens with a Silvergill Adept, revealing Adept, and I play a Call of the Herd token. He plays another Adept, revealing Lord of Atlantis, and he’s trying to find a second blue source – then I play Chalice of Void at 2, and then he shows me his hand and concedes – the hand was 100% 2 drops, that he couldn’t play while keeping value (Something like 2x Lord of Atlantis, 2x Standstill)

Boarding:
-3 (Don’t remember exactly what I took out) +3 Tsunami

Game 2: I have a Sword of Fire and Ice, and I get to equip it. The game ends soon after that. Didn’t need to Tsunami.

Round 4: ID with Eva Green, we play the match out for fun though (2-2)
Game 1: He gets to see how ridiculous Garruk is in Legacy, and I make a bunch of beasts and Elephants, while he tries to control my mana, after I’m in topdeck mode. Then I overrun for the win.

Game 2: He keeps a hand based on Thoughtseize, so he can get rid of Garruk. This is where the ridiculousness starts, where every time he got Garruk discarded, I would rip another Garruk off the top. This happened about 4 more times across all the games we played.

-3 Trinisphere
+3 Loaming Shaman

Top 8: 0-2 vs Counter-Top Control (Sort of like Thresh, but not quite)
Game 1: I open with Chalice of the Void at 1, before I know exactly what he’s playing. However, I proceed to draw all of my Swords, and have to equip it to a Spirit Guide. I misplay by not playing a Trinisphere when he would have been only able to play 1 spell a turn, but he Plows my Spirit Guide, and attacks a lot with Sower of Temptation and a Mishra’s Factory.

-3 Sword of Fire and Ice -2 Sword of Light and Shadow -2 Briarhorn
+4 Primal Order
+3 Tsunami

Game 2: I keep a bad hand based on having Primal Order, excited to play it in the tournament. And then, for some bad reason, I play an early Primal Order – basically the entire game is misplayed from me. Don’t even want to talk about it. But I happened to not draw any business spells, so he attacked with Tarmogoyf a bunch of times, and that was that.

Thoughts on the deck:
I like Primal Order in the board, and Choke would complement it hardily… not Tsunami. If I swap out for Natural Order -> Progenitus, it would pretty much take the place of SoFI and SoLaS in the deck. Trinisphere in the mainboard is okay, not amazing – I couldn’t find Tangle Wires before the tournament, so they would probably be better suited as that.

Kuma

04-02-2009, 03:29 PM

You've got the right idea, Soldar. Natural Order -> Progenitus does for Elephant Stompy what equipment does for the other stompys. If you're going to run Natural Order (which I highly recommend) cut equipment.

Primal Order seems like an inferior card. We're not always going to have 2GG, and with Ancient Tomb damage I can see Primal Order being bad for us even when we do. Then again, Primal Order could be a decent Rock/Landstill hoser. I think Choke is better against our bad matchups.

I still don't get the Wickerbough Elder love. He costs four mana to play, one mana to use, and unless you have five mana when you cast him, your opponent can kill him before you can use him. What's wrong with maindecking Krosan Grip when you want artifact/enchantment removal?

Mystical_Jackass

04-02-2009, 04:01 PM

Hi everybody! Well, first off, I'm new here and used to play Magic a while back but recently started getting back into it. What can I say, its addicting.. like the caffeine that keeps me going lol

I was drawn to this 'cause for one I love green beatdown decks, and also 'cause my friend who's big into this game has the Faerie Stompy deck, so fusing both together is just a whole world of awesomeness! :smile:

I'm no expert, but I figured I'd toss out a few ideas... see what the experts think :)

Loaming Shaman
3/2

When Loaming Shaman comes into play, target player shuffles any number of target cards from his or her graveyard into his or her library.

I heard someone mention that you're still on the lookout for a desc 3cc drop. This struck me more as a sideboard, I know that this tarmalurgoyf dude seems pretty dominant in threshold decks these days... this card could sorta one-shot cripple their graveyard, all a sudden they're goyf's back to being a nubsicle on a stick lol; Not to mention 3 for a 3/2 aint such a bad beatstick either :)

Manaplasm
1/1

Whenever you play a spell, Manaplasm gets +X/+X until end of turn, where X is that spell's converted mana cost.

Not positive, but just seemed a really cool, fitting card to greens aggro-beatdown styylee. Figured you could be kinda slick with him, turn one drop. On turn two put on a poker face and swing their way, if they choose to block you could remove your spirit guide from the game to give it +3/+3 and pwn, maybe use the mana floating to drop natural order or garruk then? Either way, play any spell or equipement etc he gets big :)

I had one question though. I know this deck runs Chalice so it prolly tries to play around using too many 2cc spells... but if you play natural order can you use sakura tribe-elder's ability as a sac outlet?

One last suggestion... that wickerbough, although its more accessible to hardcast, if you already have Garruk and natural order which are also 4cc spells, why not use like 2x Woodfall Primus to go with natural order, since it can take out lands too like Maze or enchantments without the summoning sickness lag or cost issue, an instant affect + trample. Also, SAC PRIMUS TO NATURAL ORDER TWICE MAUHAHAHHA! persists back into play and smash their lands/equipment/artifacts agaaain! lol

Again, thanks everyone glad I made it :)

Soldar

04-02-2009, 04:34 PM

You've got the right idea, Soldar. Natural Order -> Progenitus does for Elephant Stompy what equipment does for the other stompys. If you're going to run Natural Order (which I highly recommend) cut equipment.

As soon as I can get my hands on some Natural Orders, I'll be happy to run them. I've been waiting for them to come back down in value; to where they should be at.

Primal Order seems like an inferior card. We're not always going to have 2GG, and with Ancient Tomb damage I can see Primal Order being bad for us even when we do. Then again, Primal Order could be a decent Rock/Landstill hoser. I think Choke is better against our bad matchups.

I definitely played it too early against this guy, but the way he had his lands in game 1 made me really want to play the Primal Orders against him. And the bad matchups (blue with 7-9 hard counters), I wholeheartedly support either Choke+Primal Order, or just Tsunami. But I couldn't get my hands on Tangle Wires, which would make Choke so much better.

I still don't get the Wickerbough Elder love. He costs four mana to play, one mana to use, and unless you have five mana when you cast him, your opponent can kill him before you can use him. What's wrong with maindecking Krosan Grip when you want artifact/enchantment removal?

With the equipment build, you just want more guys. Krosan Grip, while it definitely kills the artifact/enchantments, can sometimes be dead. Even though this guy is mediocre (Hill Giant), he still attacks and blocks through the smaller threats in Legacy. And if you have to blow up a random artifact you control to get in more damage, then so be it. I do think he should be a 3-of instead of 4, but I don't know, I personally haven't had many problems hitting the 4 mana mark. Almost all the matchups I've gone through I've wanted some variation of Disenchant, but I haven't had the need for Krosan Grip.

The one thing that I don't agree with, from some of these lists, is cutting down to 3 Garruk - he has been absolutely amazing every time I've played him.

Kuma

04-04-2009, 02:01 PM

I went 3-3 with Elephant Stompy last night. My wins were Elves!, Ugr Thresh, and Countersliver. I lost to Golden Grahams, Mono Red Goblins, and White Weenie.

I tried out Loaming Shaman, and I only cast it once. I used it to shuffle away Countersliver's Sensei's Divining Top and put three Fetchlands back in his deck to hurt his threat density. Most of the time I was siding it out. I even sided one out versus Thresh, because I'd rather have Trinisphere and Choke. Loaming Shaman is a very situational card.

I think it might be the right call to board out Natural Order against any deck that runs Force of Will and Daze. As high as the upside of resolving Natural Order is, the downside of being two for one'd and losing favorable board position is too high.

It's worth boarding out Natural Order if your opponent is running a threat-light, removal-light deck like Painter or MUC.

I don't like the Empyrial Archangel in the board. It's such a situational card, and most of the decks you'd want it against can deal you eight damage in one turn. Even when I board it in, I almost always search for Progenitus. I'm probably going to replace it with a third Pithing Needle.

Happy Gilmore

04-05-2009, 06:44 PM

Tano

04-06-2009, 01:53 PM

Hopo

04-06-2009, 02:06 PM

btw, if we play natural order in this green coloured stompy shell, why dont we use the wood elves now? they have perfect synergy to this deck. So we play first chrome mox and 2 mana land at the first turn. Another forest appears when the elves resolve and in the second turn maybe a natural order, saccing the elf and bring progenitus in play....

im my opinion a very good choice now for this kind of deck, isn`t it?

It sounds good at first, but eventually Wood elves are only good if you have Natural Order. All the creatures should be able to act as stand-alone threaths in this deck. 1/1 is really unimpressive when facing any opposing creatures. It might have some more merit if more equipment was played, but it just really is a crappy creature since you have only 4 orders and no way to draw them besides your draw step. The present creatures are just plain better and at least 11-12 of them are playable on the first turn already, making second turn order already a serious threath.

Kuma

04-06-2009, 02:43 PM

I would say that it is just the opposite. Never take out natural order vs decks running Daze/Force expecially if thats all the counters they run. You win by forcing them to have the Force of Will. Or you wait till you can get them to use the force on something less relevant. Natural order is how you beat control.

The problem with playing Natural Order against control is that it's a devastating two for one if it gets countered. You have to sacrifice the green creature as part of the cost not as part of the resolution. Natural Order is a last resort against control. You shouldn't cast it if you're even or ahead in board position.

You may be right, but, so far, my experience against control is that either I didn't need to cast Natural Order, or I had to risk it and it was countered/not enough. Depending on the quality of creatures the control deck is running, you don't need a Progenitus to kill them.

Versus board control like ITF, Landstill, and Rock, Natural Order is invaluable. But against decks with eight free counterspells and good card selection (Thresh, Dreadstill) I'm not sure it's worth the risk. I'll have to play more games and see what happens.

GGoober

04-06-2009, 03:47 PM

@Happy Gilmore and Kuma: I agree with Kuma on this. Against decks packing FOW + Daze, I cut one Natural Order since it's just too risky if it gets countered. Most of the time, if you have a Spawnwrithe token out, you should be on your way to victory. Against decks with FOW + Daze, I'd rather have Chokes + 3Sphere over the 4th Natural Order. 3 NO has worked out well for me. Against any non-FOW deck, 4 NO is the way to go. I remember goblins staring down at a pro-everything hydra :D

rufus

04-10-2009, 12:43 PM

It seems like basic CA stuff like Harmonize or Gift of the Gargantuan, or even Greater Good is going to be better against decks that feature counterspell-type control.

keys

04-10-2009, 01:37 PM

Hmm...there's 10-land stompy, though I don't think the Source has a list for that. I played with it once, so I'm not the best judge on it. The deck is really hit or miss. Here's something like the list:

4x Xantid Swarm
4x Quirion Ranger
4x Llanowar elves
4x Uktabi Drake
4x Rouge Elephant

4x Bounty of the Hunt
4x Berserk
4x Seal of strength
2x Briar shield
4x Rancor
4x Might of Old Krosa

10x Forest
4x Land Grant
4x Elvish Spirit Guide

Board
4x Hidden Gibbons
4x Hidden Guerillas
4x Hidden Herd
3x Krosan Grip

Everytime I played it I won by attacking for 20 in the air =P Not exactly sure if this is what you're looking for, since it's not a "true" stompy build in my opinion. On that note, I kind of want to look for some green creatures to use.

This is actually really cool. I played 10-Land Stompy a while back. I like the new additions-- Drake and Might. The swarms are pretty techy.

Happy Gilmore

04-10-2009, 03:55 PM

The problem with playing Natural Order against control is that it's a devastating two for one if it gets countered. You have to sacrifice the green creature as part of the cost not as part of the resolution. Natural Order is a last resort against control. You shouldn't cast it if you're even or ahead in board position.

You may be right, but, so far, my experience against control is that either I didn't need to cast Natural Order, or I had to risk it and it was countered/not enough. Depending on the quality of creatures the control deck is running, you don't need a Progenitus to kill them.

Versus board control like ITF, Landstill, and Rock, Natural Order is invaluable. But against decks with eight free counterspells and good card selection (Thresh, Dreadstill) I'm not sure it's worth the risk. I'll have to play more games and see what happens.

The sack a green creature part rarely matters. Garruk and Call of The herd make loads of tokens. The most imporant thing about order is that they HAVE TO COUNTER IT. Trinisphere/Choke make is easier than you might think to resolve Order. They cant answer everything, and post board they take out CB which leaves them only 8 counters maybe. 4 if they run daze/Fow (tapping out for Order seems bad). Thats not a lot of hard counters to answer Order. They will understand this, that means that all your threats are probably going to resolve which is very good for you.

Post board they have to answer 4 choke, 4 order, 3 Garruk, Not to mention both chalice and trinisphere. Thresh and TA are probably easier than dedicated control decks. Atleast thats what it seams in my testing. They dont have wrath, so its prity good for you.

My list for reference:

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Call of the Herd
3 Briarhorn
4 Spawnrith
1 Loaming Shaman
4 Esg
1 Progentius
1 Emperial Archangel

3 Garruk
4 Trinisphere
4 Chalice
4 Natural order
4 Chrome mox

11 Forest
4 City
4 Tomb

SB:
4 Choke
3 Thornweild archer
4 Relic of progentius
3 Krosan Grip
1 Woodfall Primus

gamegeek2

04-10-2009, 05:14 PM

I like the way this deck looks. The Natural Order combo gives it a lot of power that other Stompy decks simply don't have. Harmonize would be a nice addition, but I don't see what to cut...

Eseph

04-11-2009, 12:01 AM

This is actually really cool. I played 10-Land Stompy a while back. I like the new additions-- Drake and Might. The swarms are pretty techy.

Unfortunately both drakes and swarms rarely actually see play in 10-land, replace them with 4x Skarrgan Pit-Skulk, and 4x Nettle Sentinel and you've got yourself a more realistic version. Oh and the Lawnmowers with Silhana Ledgewalker.

On-topic, no love for Tangle Wire in the last few lists? Surprised not more people are running it.

Happy Gilmore

04-11-2009, 10:49 AM

Unfortunately both drakes and swarms rarely actually see play in 10-land, replace them with 4x Skarrgan Pit-Skulk, and 4x Nettle Sentinel and you've got yourself a more realistic version. Oh and the Lawnmowers with Silhana Ledgewalker.

On-topic, no love for Tangle Wire in the last few lists? Surprised not more people are running it.

You could cut trinisphere for wire, it might be good. Its also a very humorous answer for decks running Order/Progentius combo, tapping it down for a couple of turns to get some swings in. I don't think you can run both without cutting something that is necessary to the deck. And harmonize is weak. I would rather run more must answer cards such as garruk, Order, etc.

Master Shake

04-11-2009, 04:04 PM

You could cut trinisphere for wire, it might be good. Its also a very humorous answer for decks running Order/Progentius combo, tapping it down for a couple of turns to get some swings in. I don't think you can run both without cutting something that is necessary to the deck. And harmonize is weak. I would rather run more must answer cards such as garruk, Order, etc.

Unless they are playing that Natural Order off 2 ESGs its only going to tap down Progentius for a turn, max. And then again, that is only if they play it off a Dryad Arbor. If you're lucky enough for them to tap Progenitus you've all ready won because your opponent doesn't know what he's doing.

Tangle Wire is good, but I don't think that its better than Trinisphere, the evidence would be that no other chalice aggro decks or stax variants use Tangle Wire. Trinisphere can win games on its own and is a huge piece of disruption, at its best Tangle Wire buys a couple of early game turns, but more likely they play one-costs that upset you. Yes, I realize Chalice is in the deck, but isn't drawn every game.

Eseph

04-11-2009, 11:02 PM

For the record Wire has tested to great succes pre NO and Progenitus, I was really just questioning it's loss post NO. As it still works wonders with Spawn, Garruk, and Progenitus.

PS: I would never replace 3sphere with it, it supplements it.

kicks_422

04-12-2009, 07:34 AM

Mystical_Jackass

04-12-2009, 10:56 PM

I know you guys were discussing NO vs daze+force of will, or just counters in general.. that it's sorta a risky move 'cause the effect not only fizzles but you have to sac a valuable creature.

ANyways, what about Pattern of Rebirth? I know it seems sorta nubbish, but if it's countered at least you don't lose a valuable creature like your briarhonr, spawn, goyf, etc. right off the bat, leaving you with no defense/offense. I used to play the card back in the day is all, its always a funny psycological game Lol.. like, I don't want the creature to hit me for damage, but if I kill it I'm gonna be doubly f'd lol. Just a thought

yeah, NO's still prolly better but it'd be cool if you had a cool 3cc creature that could be used as a sac outlet too >.< Like a nantuko husk creature for green, ah well some day lol

Happy Gilmore

04-12-2009, 11:20 PM

They would never counter it if they can simply swords the dude and get a 2for1.

Creature enchantments have to be very very good to be in legacy. And right now, there are none.

Mystical_Jackass

04-13-2009, 02:42 PM

I was talking about counters like Daze+Force of will, how Pattern of Rebirth has a similar ability but will limit your losses, is what I was saying.

Throwing swords of plowshare into the picture is a whole new story. Either way, wouldn't natural order be the same thing, they could just swords or bolt the creature when it's on the stack?

Kuma

04-13-2009, 02:46 PM

I've recently started playing this on MWS and it's been performing really well. I haven't been able to test a lot against established decks though... What are its good and bad match-ups? Like the OP, I'm looking for a Chalice Aggro deck and this one with Natural Order seems like one of the better (if not, the best) one.

Eh, I wouldn't say Elephant Stompy is the best Chalice Aggro, but it can definitely hold its own. It's arguably better than Dragon Stompy, especially in under-developed metagames. However, Faerie Stompy is the better deck versus the metagame at large.

With the additions of Natural Order and Tangle Wire, Elephant Stompy has a fantastic game against aggro decks. Unlike Dragon and Faerie Stompy, Elephant Stompy actually has a strong game against decks that don't have tight mana curves. This is largely because of the aforementioned Natural Order and Tangle Wire. Elephant Stompy is also stronger against spot removal than any other Stompy because of its ability to crank out creature after creature whether it's a duplicating Spawnwrithe, Call of The Herd, or Garruk Wildspeaker.

This reliance on smaller token creatures also makes Elephant Stompy especially vulnerable to Engineered Explosives and Pernicious Deed. Engineered Explosives, in particular, is a real problem card, and we're almost certainly not favored against any deck that runs multiple copies and/or recurrs it. It's The Fear, while winnable, is easily our worst matchup. In general, Elephant Stompy has more problems with board control than the other Stompies.

Storm combo really comes down to the coin flip, but it's better if you maindeck Trinisphere. We're at a huge disadvantage on the draw since we have no way to stop them from comboing turn one.

Ichorid is unfavorable. They force us to play control, and it's a role we're not well suited for. Adding some Tormod's Crypt to the board may help.

I haven't tested against Aggro Loam, but it seems like it could be tough. I think our best plan would be to race them using Tangle Wire to buy time. That, or get Progenitus out ASAP. Some number of Crypt or Loaming Shaman should help.

Goblins is tough, especially if they're running Pyrokinesis in their board. If they hit you with an early Lackey, you're in trouble. If you can dodge that, you're probably okay. Again, I haven't tested this matchup much. Boarding Hail Storm will help you out.

Merfolk is probably better for us than Goblins since they're slower and we have Choke in the board. I haven't tested this matchup either.

I can't say much about Threshold either, since I've only done a little testing against it. We're pretty solid since we've got lots of sideboard cards against them and Counterbalance is largely ineffective against us. Like most Stompy lists, Canadian Thresh is the worst of the bunch for us.

Hope that helps.

kicks_422

04-13-2009, 08:04 PM

Thanks, that was very helpful. I guess all the deck can do against Deed/EE is board in Pithing Needles (and side out Chalice? or no?) and hope for the best.

I'll be off to testing this at our local shop hopefully on Thursday, once my final exam is done - if I haven't bled out all my brains after it. I'll be testing against Goblins and Thresh, so I'd get a feel of how the deck plays.. I'll share my results here.

One thing I've noticed early on about this deck is that almost everything is a must-counter. Successive Spawnwrithes, Garruks, Chalices, etc. is a headache especially for blue-based aggro control, as well as the classic control kick-to-the-nuts Call of the Herd. Exhausting their countermagic is inevitable.

My decision was down to either Faerie Stompy or this, and I think I'm leaning into this one more now. I really think it has great potential, maybe 1 or 2 efficient 2G or 3G beaters away from perfection. And also, Natural Order for Progenitus > equipment.

Carabas

04-13-2009, 08:24 PM

Spawnwrithe Tokens have a CMC of 3. They are exact copies of the card, and as such have all aspects of it, including artist and expansion symbol. They're still tokens though, so they cease to exist if they leave play, but at least they don't die to explosives for 0.

Hopo

04-14-2009, 07:22 AM

I played this in Scandinavian Legacy Masters last weekend, and got an unimpressive record of 2-3-drop. Still, the deck is just devastating. I got really unlucky as blind flips from opposing Counterbalances countered several of my key spells, including 3 orders (flipped blindly Sower.) I played 4 Trinispheres main, and it was a great call, as besides one time a first turn sphere was always gg from there on.

Aggro Loam was surprisingly tough, I lost 2-0 with chalice for 2 out in both games. Loam-kind of decks with huge threats could justify some SB slots for Snakeform, which I unfortunately left out of my SB this time. I had replaced them with Tangle Wires, which I didn't use even once for the whole weekend.

It was a blast to play and my games got a lot of attention, as second turn Progenitus is one of the coolest plays in the history of the game. Also, I made people scoop in side events and main tournament with first turn Trinisphere -> third turn Progenitus so many times, that I lost track of it.

People massively overlooked Spawnwrithe, but after losing to it once, they started to get hang of it and made their top priority to keep it from attacking.

I didn't mulligan myself to oblivion even once. One time only I took a mulligan to five and still ended up having Progenitus attacking on turn three. I like how the Spirit Guides make classy hands and massive amount of 3-drops and chalices guarantees a first turn play.

I will be next trying to figure out the thing with Garruk. I haven't been extremely happy with him, and need to find something else to work with. I propably try to replace him with the original beatstick, Chameleon Colossus. I cropped them when Natural Order made it to the deck and have been missing them, since it can end games really fast by itself, even through goyfs.

Mystical_Jackass

04-14-2009, 12:13 PM

Are there other gg creatures with persist, besides Primus that you could sac to Natural order?

rufus

04-14-2009, 12:40 PM

Are there other gg creatures with persist, besides Primus that you could sac to Natural order?

The list of persist cards that a mono-green deck can play is:

Aerie Ouphes
Woodfall Primus
Grazing Kelpie
Heartmender
Kitchen Finks
Rendclaw Troll
Safehold Elite
Scuzzback Marauders
Trapjaw Kelpie
Cauldron of Souls
Rattleblaze Scarecrow
Wingrattle Scarecrow

None of them suitable for this deck.

Mystical_Jackass

04-14-2009, 02:36 PM

sounds good, just checking ^.^

rufus

04-15-2009, 01:47 PM

sounds good, just checking ^.^

On second thought, Scuzzback Marauders is plausible, since it's a reasonably fast wincon, and has solid 2-1 potential.

Mystical_Jackass

04-15-2009, 02:54 PM

Yeah, that is an interesting card. Man, if it only cost like one less mana that'd be golden, you could turn 2 it and follow up with natural order. I guess call of the herd works pretty well though too.

I like Tarmagoyf, but doesn't he sorta get in the way in this deck? I just see him being sorta slow without brainstorm, bolt, daze, giant growth's, etc to build off. I dunno, just seems like not every creature is meant for every deck, and he interferes with chalice too if you're gonna hit 2.

EIther way, wouldn't you rather chalice for 1, choke, spawnwrithe, call of the herd, etc. on your first turn instead of goyf because at least that way you have an immediate beatdown or effect whereas goyf takes time to grow and gets no guaranteed protection from removal.

Kuma

04-15-2009, 03:56 PM

I like Tarmagoyf, but doesn't he sorta get in the way in this deck? I just see him being sorta slow without brainstorm, bolt, daze, giant growth's, etc to build off. I dunno, just seems like not every creature is meant for every deck, and he interferes with chalice too if you're gonna hit 2.

Look at the DTB forum and you'll see why goyf is good in decks that don't fill their graveyards.

And Chalice at two is not a reason to avoid playing incredibly powerful cards with CMC 2. I rarely cast Chalice at two to begin with, and I've only tripped over it once. Tarmogoyf has won me double-digit games.

EIther way, wouldn't you rather chalice for 1, choke, spawnwrithe, call of the herd, etc. on your first turn instead of goyf because at least that way you have an immediate beatdown or effect whereas goyf takes time to grow and gets no guaranteed protection from removal.

Yes, I would rather play those cards on turn one. In Elephant Stompy, Tarmogoyf is a mid-game card. And a fantastic one at that.

Mystical_Jackass

04-15-2009, 04:41 PM

Okay, I get that. But here's where we disagree, the key word being "synergy"

Stompy decks should be built around cards like sea drake & rakdos, creatures that are good on their own right off the bat... you drop them and you swing right away, opponent cringes lol >.<. The problem with tarmagoyf is, regardless if he steps on chalice.. if you chalice for 1 shutting down their 1cc's, you're stunting his growth too since now your opponent cant brainstorm or bolt, etc. He's taking up valuable space that could be Jitte, or something to capitalize spawnwrithe's potential or so..

All I'm saying is, the way I see it... if you're gonna maindeck Chalice, then sideboard Goyf and run your 3cc beatdowns instead. If you're gonna maindeck Goyf, you might as well sideboard chalice and mix in faster beatdown's that synergize it like berzerk, seal of strength, etc. So you can turn1 spawnwrithe, turn2 seal of strength+berzerk spawnwrith and swing to slam them for 10 damage. Then by turn 3-4, when you drop goyf he's huge ^.^ I just don't think goyf is 'agressive' enough on its own right off the bat, seems like its taking up valuable card draw for a card like you said that's only effective midgame, when by then you'd prolly want better cards like Natural Order, Garruk, etc anyways.

Happy Gilmore

04-15-2009, 04:42 PM

TheLion

04-15-2009, 05:17 PM

Since when would you ever put chalice at 2, its not useful at all.

I laughed at that. Are you serious? Chalice@2 shuts off more threats than Chalice@1... actual win conditions, not just Brainstorm and Top.
not useful? come on...

Mystical_Jackass

04-15-2009, 05:50 PM

Not playing goyf in this deck is a mistake. There is no reason not to take advantage of its massive body for such a cheep cost. And you have Briarthorn to break through opposing ones.

Are you guys arguing to not play goyf because you are afraid of playing chalice at 2? Since when would you ever put chalice at 2, its not useful at all.

ok, go back and reread everything I said (if you did read it, most likely not).

My point, again, wasn't that Tarmagoyf isn't an excellent creature on its own because it is, its just that in this "stompie" deck atmosphere I don't feel its aggressive enough on its own right off the bat, so it doesn't really fit imo therefore you should instead use other cards that capitalize off Spawnwrithe to help it hit opponent like jitte or instants/sorceries, etc. I'm just trying to stay true to the roots of stompy, just like for Sea Drake or w/e.... aka, first turn drop 3cc creature, 2nd turn drop jitte+equip and trample over the top of their kerd ape or 2/1 weenies, etc. and put a copy of Spawnwrithe in play..... And as for it being an excellent mid-game, I guess, but wouldn't you rather be rocking Natural Order by then anyways? I'm thinking Projenitus > Goyf midgame :laugh:

And I agree, chalice for 2 is the stuff that dreams are made of man, especially game 2-3 if you knew you could shut down 1/3 of someones deck on turn 2 wouldn't you do it? Either way, you can always chalice for 1, then for 2 after. That's how stompy breaks decks

Kuma

04-15-2009, 06:24 PM

Stompy decks should be built around cards like sea drake & rakdos, creatures that are good on their own right off the bat...

I agree except for 'right off the bat.' There are too many counterexamples. Taurean Mauler, Goblin Assault, Pestermite, Mulldrifter, and Sower of Temptation are not good on their own right off the bat. Unless your definition of 'good on their own' is 'swings for damage the turn after you play it,' in which case Squire is good on its own.

you drop them and you swing right away, opponent cringes lol >.<. The problem with tarmagoyf is, regardless if he steps on chalice.. if you chalice for 1 shutting down their 1cc's, you're stunting his growth too since now your opponent cant brainstorm or bolt, etc. He's taking up valuable space that could be Jitte, or something to capitalize spawnwrithe's potential or so..

You won't Chalice for one every game. And even if you do resolve a Chalice at one, the decks that Chalices are strongest against tend to run their own Tarmogoyfs. Threshold and other similar decks will let their CC 1 cards be countered by Chalice to grow their goyfs. I've had several good players do this against me in tournaments, and I've lost games because Thresh players did this.

It's terrible deck design to not run powerful cards that have potential bad synergy with other powerful cards in your deck. It's one thing when half your deck interferes with the other half, but not running goyf because Chalice shrinks it is ludicrous even if it were true.

you can turn1 spawnwrithe, turn2 seal of strength+berzerk spawnwrith and swing to slam them for 10 damage. Then by turn 3-4, when you drop goyf he's huge ^.^ I just don't think goyf is 'agressive' enough on its own right off the bat, seems like its taking up valuable card draw for a card like you said that's only effective midgame, when by then you'd prolly want better cards like Natural Order, Garruk, etc anyways.

I wish that I resolved a turn one Spawnwrite followed by a turn two Tangle Wire every game. But even if our hand has the cards to do this, there's so much control in the format that we'll far too often have Spawnwrithe StP'd or Tangle Wire Dazed. This is why we need cards like Tarmogoyf. He may be bad on the first turn, but he's minimum 2/3 after one of our spells is countered and in all likelihood at least a 3/4 (fetch, Ponder, etc.). He's a 2/3 or better by turn two or three against most of the best decks in the format.

He's good to side out against decks that don't fill the yard, but we beat them anyway.

Hopo

04-16-2009, 04:40 AM

Arguing ovet Tarmogoyf is just plain pointless. It's the best creature in the game and it has minor dissynergy with 4 cards we play. Tarmogoyf wins most of the games with this deck, Natural order coming in second tied up with Spawnwrithe.

And what's the point in complaining how goyf collides with chalice for 2 and in the same sentence suggesting Jitte over it?

Kuma: Trinisphere vs. Tangle Wire. How do you do that? I maindeck 4 spheres as they are absolute bombs. I think it's easily the best play the deck can come up with on turn 1. I've tested with wires also, and they are awesome, but my list is so tight that I have to choose either one, and so far Trinisphere is the one. Best bet would be to play both, but then the green count gets low and Chrome Mox problems are bound to arise. And that would mean cutting some more Briarhorns.

Have you tried a Garrukless list? I guess I will start working on that next. It would also give room to play Tangle wire and Trinisphere. for some reason, Garruk has been really unimpressive and I can't even remember when I had wished to have one in play.

Tano

04-16-2009, 06:47 AM

Garrukless and Tarmoless:

4 x Elvish Spirit Guide
4 x spawnwrithe
4 x Briarhorn
4 x Loaming Shaman (very usefull in nearly all metas)
2 x Iwamori (secret tech, hehe)
1 x Indrik Stomphowler
1 x Wickerbough Elder
1 x Progenitus

4 x chrome Mox
4 x Chalice of the Void
4 x Trinisphere (most important card)
4 x Call of the Herd
4 x Natural Order

4 x City of Traitors
4 x ancient Tomb
1 x Dryad Arbor
10 x Forest

Try this ! :) :laugh:

zabuza

04-16-2009, 08:59 AM

I think you are not realising that tangle is much better in the deck than trinisphere. THe sphere is a must in side to fight vs combo and so, but wires are better for two reasons.

First of all we want Spawnwrithe to connect. With Sphere we are not helping it (if opponent has a kird ape, moongose or something is not as good as having no blockers), but spawnwrithe followed by wire assures you sapwnrithe is going to connect.

Secondly when we play with sideboard (2 of the 3 times in a round) with wire + choke you are denying the opponents manabase for sure instead of having sphere and opponent waiting till he/she finds a solution to choke.

Instead of tarmogoyfs i´m playing hungry spriggan. They are better than i thought because trample and because in the beginning of the match (when we need them because at middle late game we have progenitus) they are bigger than goyfs and because trampling (and with briarhorn) the usually deals lot of damage to opponent.

Iwamori nowdays is bad. Lot of people plays progenitus or any legend (mangara,...) and we can´t afford opponent playing anything he wants.

Thoughts?

Mystical_Jackass

04-16-2009, 09:46 AM

And what's the point in complaining how goyf collides with chalice for 2 and in the same sentence suggesting Jitte over it?

I get what you guys are saying. It's good just to have, although it doesn't seem to fit the boot in Stompy and doesn't go well with city of traitors/tomb I'll take your word for it 'cause it is a really great card.

Now, what I said was.. if you're "not" concerned about it clashing with Chalice and you're gonna main deck goyf, knowing full well that it's more of a mid-game drop anyways because of the slower buildup, why wouldn't you just go Jitte's instead? ... something that'll actually "enhance" you're spawnwrithe right off the bat. So yeah, my argument was that if you "didn't" care about it clashing wouldn't you be better off with Jitte's then or something that will boost your other creatures affectiveness tremendously, to me that's just as good or better than having goyf on its own because of the reusable versatility it has in just about every situation.

Instead of tarmogoyfs i´m playing hungry spriggan
I like the idea.. it's sorta a fragile creature unless attacking though which sucks, making it pretty vulnerable to fanatic and -1/-1 counters. Trample is pretty much green's evasion though for hitting the duelist.. so I'm glad you're making use of it but I think with some swords/jitte it'd work even better. Fire & Ice's gotta be my fav card of all time, it's just too damn good and gives an instant benefit to trample and card draw & removal..only down is it has to hit, but with trample that's easy

Skeggi

04-16-2009, 10:13 AM

Lot of people plays progenitus or any legend (mangara,...) and we can´t afford opponent playing anything he wants.
Not true.

zabuza

04-16-2009, 11:55 AM

Decks that use legends are death&taxes, pro_ThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh. elephant stompy, survival, elves, golden-grahams, etc. Why not true? I don´t know how your meta is, but i´ve seen these decks very often. I´m not saying is an unplayable card instead i´m talking about if you´re planning to use them be careful to see that you are not going to play against any of theese decks.

About the new card Maelstrom pulse. Be careful with it because it can kill all spawnwrithes we can get with only one card. OMG, this fucking card is not good for us.

Mystical_Jackass

04-16-2009, 12:06 PM

what about this card, it has sorta an interesting ability:

Rosheen Meanderer
Legendary Creature - Giant Shaman
P/T: 4/4
T : Add 4 to your mana pool. Spend this mana only on costs that contain X.

It'd make an interesting turn 2 follow-up spell to spawnwrithe/Herd (although briarhorns pretty damn good already). What about running like 2 Sigil of Distinction with Chalice. Allows you to drop chalice for 2 or a minimum +3/+3 sigil without affecting your mana base on turn3. But yea, just like the elder.. summoning sickness slows it down, but 4 for a 4/4 aint shabby either.

Esper3k

04-16-2009, 12:13 PM

You know, Rosheen sounds interesting to say the least. I'm thinking about testing her in Dragon Stompy... add that in with a Banefire/Demonfire along with some Sigils.

Tano

04-16-2009, 01:42 PM

I think you are not realising that tangle is much better in the deck than trinisphere. THe sphere is a must in side to fight vs combo and so, but wires are better for two reasons.

No, no my friend. Trinisphere is overkill against combo and at least awesome against most other competative decks. Its a killer against burn, most aggro decks, decks that use counterspell, removal etc... You see what I mean? Putting the trinisphere in the sideboard is not very skillfully.

First of all we want Spawnwrithe to connect. With Sphere we are not helping it (if opponent has a kird ape, moongose or something is not as good as having no blockers), but spawnwrithe followed by wire assures you sapwnrithe is going to connect.

If you put the trinisphereon on turn 1 into play, sir, when do you think will a mongoose or a kird ape hit the table????? You will see them on turn 3, so what?? What shall happen to your spawnwrithe until then? Nothing and again nothing, zero, narda, nichts (that was german:tongue: ). If u are afraid of nasty blockers, put 3 or 4 snakeform in your sideboard and let them block.

Secondly when we play with sideboard (2 of the 3 times in a round) with wire + choke you are denying the opponents manabase for sure instead of having sphere and opponent waiting till he/she finds a solution to choke.

Imagine Zabuza, that you play trinisphere and boarded in some chokes too. That Deck that suffers to a choke and a trinisphere is done, when both should have resolved. A tangle wire is something like "win more".

Instead of tarmogoyfs i´m playing hungry spriggan. They are better than i thought because trample and because in the beginning of the match (when we need them because at middle late game we have progenitus) they are bigger than goyfs and because trampling (and with briarhorn) the usually deals lot of damage to opponent.

Never tested the spriggan. So I would agree, until I`ve tested it and it would be bad.

Iwamori nowdays is bad. Lot of people plays progenitus or any legend (mangara,...) and we can´t afford opponent playing anything he wants.

Thoughts?

Ehmmm, what? Iwamori is bad, because opponent could put mangara or progenitus in play??? rofl... thats no reason, not to play an Iwamori. Death and Taxes is a bid outdated nowerdays and nobody has a Progenitus on his or her hands. They are usually in their libaries, I guess :rolleyes: . So, give me a better reason why we should avoid playing 2 Iwamoris.

Mystical_Jackass

04-16-2009, 03:21 PM

If you put the trinisphereon on turn 1 into play, sir, when do you think will a mongoose or a kird ape hit the table????? You will see them on turn 3, so what?? What shall happen to your spawnwrithe until then? Nothing and again nothing, zero, narda, nichts (that was german ). If u are afraid of nasty blockers, put 3 or 4 snakeform in your sideboard and let them block.

:confused:

Chalice > Trinisphere.

how much more anti-combo is that? lol .. and it requires no mox's so there's a higher % chance you'll 1st turn drop it.

Too many artifacts could be a bad thing too, how are you gonna mox with a handful of artifacts :P Remove the only creature card in your hand?

Kuma

04-16-2009, 04:38 PM

Kuma: Trinisphere vs. Tangle Wire. How do you do that? I maindeck 4 spheres as they are absolute bombs. I think it's easily the best play the deck can come up with on turn 1. I've tested with wires also, and they are awesome, but my list is so tight that I have to choose either one, and so far Trinisphere is the one. Best bet would be to play both, but then the green count gets low and Chrome Mox problems are bound to arise. And that would mean cutting some more Briarhorns.

If I had a nickel for every time I've said this, I could buy a playset of Japanese foil Trinispheres and get yawg07 to extend the art on all four. Trinisphere is only good vs. most decks if you drop it turn one on the play. Notable exceptions to this are Threshold and combo. The problem with Trinisphere is that it will usually only slow your opponent down by one turn, if at all, and it takes you one turn's worth of mana to play it. The only times this isn't true is when you drop it first turn on the play --- it buys you a minimum two turns, or when you play it against decks that like to cast free spells, run little to no land destruction, and/or like to play multiple spells in one turn: Threshold, combo, Affinity, etc. This is why Trinisphere is a sideboard card.

Tangle Wire is useful through the mid-game and also helps your Spawnwrithes hit your opponent. Tangle Wire is useful against pretty much everything that Trinisphere is bad against --- decks with a lot of creatures and/or few instants. Both have strong synergy with Choke, but Tangle Wire's synergy is stronger. Usually Trinisphere and Tangle Wire are traded out for each other between games.

You could certainly maindeck both cards, but I don't recommend it.

Have you tried a Garrukless list? I guess I will start working on that next. It would also give room to play Tangle wire and Trinisphere. for some reason, Garruk has been really unimpressive and I can't even remember when I had wished to have one in play.

I haven't tried a Garrukless list, because Garruk is amazing. He creates an army of beasts and doesn't even slow you down to cast him since you can play him, untap two lands, and play a creature. Usually he comes out and makes three beasts, but often I play him, use his untap ability to build an army, and then use his ultimate to seal the deal. He's also fantastic versus board control and in the lategame in general.

Garrukless and Tarmoless

Why do people insist on cutting two of the deck's strongest three cards more than anything else? Do people in the Threshold threads post lists without Force of Will and Tarmogoyf? What is it about Stompy threads that make people want to play bad cards?

if you're "not" concerned about it clashing with Chalice and you're gonna main deck goyf, knowing full well that it's more of a mid-game drop anyways because of the slower buildup, why wouldn't you just go Jitte's instead? ... something that'll actually "enhance" you're spawnwrithe right off the bat.

Because Jitte requires a four mana investment minimum before it does anything, and you'll often be spending that mana instead of playing creatures which makes it especially painful when your creature gets killed in response to equipping. And how the heck does Jitte enhance Spawnwrithe right off the bat? You have to deal damage before Jitte does anything.

I'd say run Jitte against control to turn every 3/3 into a massive threat, but we already have Choke, Trinisphere, Krosan Grip, Garruk, Call of the Herd, and Tarmogoyf, and Pithing Needle against control. I'd say run Jitte against aggro, but we already cream aggro.

So, give me a better reason why we should avoid playing 2 Iwamoris.

Chameleon Colossus, Natural Order, Garruk Wildspeaker...

Mystical_Jackass

04-16-2009, 06:04 PM

Because Jitte requires a four mana investment minimum before it does anything, and you'll often be spending that mana instead of playing creatures which makes it especially painful when your creature gets killed in response to equipping

You run CHalice of the Void. First turn drop it, there goes swords of plow/bolts/brainstorms etc.

Yeah, if you run Jitte or Sword of fire/ice... it costs mana, this is true. This is what separates critter decls from stompy though, you shut them down and smash over the top of them. Using Mox's comes at a cost of card advantage, which you gain back using fire/ice or jitte's, equipment that you can continouosly re-use on every creature from then on to gain the card/removal advantage back.

And jitte just has to do damage to keep the counters, so if your creature ends up dying in combat it's not a total loss.

Carabas

04-16-2009, 06:55 PM

You know what Natural Order is? It's like a jitte, but instead of paying 4 mana to give your elephant token abilities it can't use yet, you pay 4 mana to give your token +7/+7 and protection from everything. If I had to cut slots for bumping up my creatures, I'd have to cut natural order, as this deck needs a fair amount of creatures to help its gameplan.

As for Iwamori, I've been considering putting in a singleton big guy, and cutting down a Garruk as I keep drawing multiples, and it can take a while to run him out of beat tokens. On my list to try are Iwamori, Chameleon colossus, Blastoderm, Giant Solifuge, and Ravenous Baloth.

Mystical_Jackass

04-16-2009, 07:35 PM

Well, thanks for simplifying that ... -.- See, before I just looked at the cards and assumed to know what it meant, now I know lol.:tongue:

I know natural order's good, but you can't always play around one card as we've discussed before. Well, and I guess I'll answer your question with another question. So if you're gameplan simply is natural order.. why Stompy then? Why not just birds of paradise, goyf and other good green creatures wit natural order like other variants I've seen that have been successful..

Kuma

04-16-2009, 09:48 PM

You run CHalice of the Void. First turn drop it, there goes swords of plow/bolts/brainstorms etc.

The number of games where you try to equip Jitte without a Chalice at one will be far greater than the number of games where you have one. But that's not the real issue. We already have tons of cards for improving the control matchup. Choke, Trinisphere, Krosan Grip, Garruk, Call of the Herd, Tarmogoyf, and Pithing Needle. And Natural Order > Jitte while essentially serving the same purpose versus aggro.

zabuza

04-17-2009, 04:14 AM

Tano, you are not right. I´m going to explain you why.

No, no my friend. Trinisphere is overkill against combo and at least awesome against most other competative decks. Its a killer against burn, most aggro decks, decks that use counterspell, removal etc... You see what I mean? Putting the trinisphere in the sideboard is not very skillfully.

Please before anything read Kuma post because he has explained this topic lot of times before.

As you said Trinisphere is overkill against combo but due to the proliferation of decks using counterbalance (who overkills combo a lot more), there aren´t lot of combo anyways.

Trinishpere is not overkill to burn. It only slow down this deck a bit. Beleive me, i´ve played burn long time and Dragon Stompy (who plays trinisphere) wouldn´t be a bad match-up if it wouldn´t play chalices who hurt burn a lot.

Aggro decks are damaged by sphere, but it´s not always truth because an un-answered lackey for example can make lot of damage.

If you put the trinisphereon on turn 1 into play, sir, when do you think will a mongoose or a kird ape hit the table????? You will see them on turn 3, so what?? What shall happen to your spawnwrithe until then? Nothing and again nothing, zero, narda, nichts (that was german:tongue: ). If u are afraid of nasty blockers, put 3 or 4 snakeform in your sideboard and let them block.

OMG, i forgot you ALWAYS begin the games. As for that i forgot that NOBODY plays daze or so to counter sphere.

Please don´t generalize. This aseveration is far to be truth.

Imagine Zabuza, that you play trinisphere and boarded in some chokes too. That Deck that suffers to a choke and a trinisphere is done, when both should have resolved. A tangle wire is something like "win more".

Think about it. Sphere makes opponent play slowly but he/she can play creatures to deal with your threats. Tangle wire TAPS these creatures so tours can pass through. Sphere don´t tap creaturess, only slows tempo.

Wires make the opponent tapping land (Whether he/she wants or not) instead of giving him the chance to wait till he has the answer to sphere.

Never tested the spriggan. So I would agree, until I`ve tested it and it would be bad.

Test it, is not as bas as it can seems.

Ehmmm, what? Iwamori is bad, because opponent could put mangara or progenitus in play??? rofl... thats no reason, not to play an Iwamori. Death and Taxes is a bid outdated nowerdays and nobody has a Progenitus on his or her hands. They are usually in their libaries, I guess :rolleyes: . So, give me a better reason why we should avoid playing 2 Iwamoris.

As kuma said, play orders, garruk, colossus. All of them are better than iwamori and have no drawbacks.

Skeggi

04-17-2009, 04:44 AM

Decks that use legends are death&taxes, pro_ThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh. elephant stompy, survival, elves, golden-grahams, etc. Why not true?

In my meta, at the higher tables at least, the only legends you'll find are Kira and Jitte (and I don't think your opponent would side in Gaddock Teeg). There are a few people playing D&T, but they never seem to go anywhere with it. And the chance that the few people who have a one-of Progenitus in their deck actually have it in their hand is very small.

If you encounter one of these decks, you could opt to side him out, but his drawback isn't really something to worry about 90% of the time. So I don't think it's a solid argument.

The argument that Orders, Garruk and Colossus are all better hold more ground in my opinion.

Tano

04-17-2009, 06:42 AM

In my meta, at the higher tables at least, the only legends you'll find are Kira and Jitte (and I don't think your opponent would side in Gaddock Teeg). There are a few people playing D&T, but they never seem to go anywhere with it. And the chance that the few people who have a one-of Progenitus in their deck actually have it in their hand is very small.

If you encounter one of these decks, you could opt to side him out, but his drawback isn't really something to worry about 90% of the time. So I don't think it's a solid argument.

The argument that Orders, Garruk and Colossus are all better hold more ground in my opinion.

I agree, but.... an Iwamori has style :tongue: and has a nice clock and has the "green evasion". So when we think about playing Blastoderm or goyf or Baloth, why dont we use one or two of the Iwamori?? In my opinion, they are something like Natural Order No. 5 and 6.
Colossus costs a lot of Mana and you dont get a 5/5 trampler without drawback for cc4. Garruk is awesome, I agree. But Tarmogoyf is not really needed in this deck. What would you prefer: A second turn Goyf or a second turn Iwamori? - I take the Iwamori :cool: -

Hopo

04-17-2009, 07:51 AM

Kuma: Well, the reason I find Trinisphere performing has propably been the meta, which is basically all possible variants of threshold, affinity in some numbers and also dredge + non-storm combo (breakfast and such.) So until that changes significantly, spheres are the thing to go with. I agree that wire is better in aggro-matchups, hence I dedicated 4 sideboard slots for them.
As a conclusion I think that Tangle Wire isn't automatically the better of the two.

Skeggi

04-17-2009, 08:26 AM

a 5/5 trampler without drawback for cc4.
Iwamori's biggest drawback is that he's Legendary himself.

Tano

04-17-2009, 09:22 AM

Iwamori's biggest drawback is that he's Legendary himself.

Right! That is his drawback. So run one or two in the MD (I got a foil unplayed Iwamori, so I have to put it in the MD :cry: , hehe i am kidding). But seriously: one or two of them arent a disadvantage. Btw, there is a tournament tomorrow, where i will take part in and if i find my fourth city of traitors in my card stock (nearly 20000 cards i own), then i will play elephant stompy.... and if not i play berserk stompy :laugh: .

Kuma

04-17-2009, 01:42 PM

zabuza

04-19-2009, 07:51 AM

Hi everybody.
I´ve played yesterday in a tourney of 26 people and get the 6th place with elephant Stompy.
It was a 4 round tourney and i played vs UgrTreshold, Bant, painters and merfolks.

The rounds were like that.

First round: UGRTresh

First game i played chalice from 1, he fows it.He plays a goose and next turn another chalice of one enters. After that i played a briarhorn who kills his goose and was sacked to call Progenitus who ended the game.
1-0

Second game i boarded in wires and chokes and had to do mulligan to 5. I played some wires(never see a choke in all tourney except last game of last round where it were unuseful) but no critters appears so he kills me with driad and tarmo.
1-1

Third game i don´t remember but he fowed, dazed anything i tried to play, played a garruk and make a beast, he bolted beast and attacked with goyf to garruk. After that he kills me.
1-2

Second round: BAnt

I won 2-0 this match. Chalices of 1 and 2 were on the play and although he killed al my critters one by one lastly i could call to progenitus who ended both games.

3-2

Third round: Painters.

I win this round because hungry spriggan is "a house". I love this guy.

First game:He began to play and i chaliced at 1 and trinesphered. He takes time to recover, so critters (spawnwrithe and elephants killed him with help of briarhorn who kills his painter blocking spawnwrithe).
4-2

Second Game: I boarded in krosan grip. In my oppening hand i had progenitus, but no problem i have another in the deck ( i thought) so if he grinds me i could win anyways. He began with ancient tomb painter, i played tomb, chrome krosan the painter. He began to play magus and search for grindstone, plays a welder in the next three turns. In this time i DRAWED THE OTHER PROGEWNITUS and played some critters who left ghim with 4 lifes. Next turn he plays synod use welder to recover painter and grinds me. I haven´t progenitus in the deck and mi side hadn´t blessing so i lost this game.
4-3

Third game i began very fast (thnks Spriggan) and his only answer was a meekstone he looked for with magus. This was a very funny game because he looked for meekstone and i had an order in hand so i ordered for Spriggan with an elephant and began to trample over his magus, welder and painters so i killed him and he hasn´t any solution to my "little" goblin.
5-3

Four round:Merfolks.
He wins the first game, spawnwrithe and spriggan wins me the second and he wins again the third. I realise that this deck has no responses to lo of critters and i decided to improve that in the future.

First round he wins because fowed dazed chalices and spheres and played fastly lord and reejery and sirvegil so i couldn´t stop them.

Second round i win because an ununswered spawnwrithe who creates an army helped by briarhorn.

Third round i keep a hand with sphere , chalice, tomb, mox, choke (yuhuuuu) and two writhes and draw another sphere. I thought that if he doesn´t begin with vial the game was mine, but he opnes with vial so choke and spheres were unsueful. He began to play very fast and with vial, two mutavault, and two lords the game finished fastly. He fowed one of my writhes ant the other was used to chrome mox because i thought choke was little better because i haven´t seen mutavaults in the other games.

6-4

After the tourney i can say that this deck is sooooo funny and is good enough to win anybody ( i won at least one game in every round) but it needs to be modified a few.

My decklist was the same that is usually posted here but i don´t play goyfs (believe me, i don´t need them in any of the games. Is a very good card, but only against threshold they could be useful. Against painters they would be unuseful because meekstone and against bant the same. merfolks i don´t know but the reason because i´m saying they are not needed is because i´ve played chalice of 2 in three of the games (and wished for more). Anyways you know i don´t like them, but in this tournament they wouldn´t have changed anything). and one relic maindeck (tarmogoyf´s fear XD).

Spriggans are a house. The game me lot of games, killed rox war monk, painters, and even goyfs.

My side was AWFUL. It was like:
4 krosan
4 wires
3 relic of progenitus
4 chokes

Relic is awful, usually we play chalice from one so this cards is not a good idea. There were several games in wich i couldn´t play it because a chalice or drawed it when it was unuseful.

I don´t see any choke but the last round.

Wires were not useful at all. When i boarded them in they don´t change anything and became a dead draw. I´m going to replace them with 4 powder keg.

I´ve thinking about and if i´d played kegs i could kill two mutavaults against fish,kill tarmos, and stuff like that. They are useful against ichorid too because kills all the zombies and is useful against gooses, tarmos and so on.

I´m going to use a gaia´s blessing in side too.

Anymore ideas?, thougts? Questions?

Master Shake

04-19-2009, 05:27 PM

zabuza, you should really post the list to played. And obviously Relic is going to suck in a chalice aggro deck.

Iwamori's biggest drawback is that he's Legendary himself.

Some day someone from this thread will play Iwamori against an opponent and they will drop Progentius into play. It should likely be the best day ever for all who read it.

I'm highly in favor of everyone playing Iwamori.

zabuza

04-20-2009, 04:51 AM

My list was:

4 x Elvish Spirit Guide
4 x spawnwrithe
4 x Briarhorn
1 x Loaming Shaman
4 x Hungry Spriggan
2 x Progenitus
3 x Garruk

4 x chrome Mox
4 x Chalice of the Void
4 x Trinisphere
4 x Call of the Herd
4 x Natural Order

4 x City of Traitors
4 x ancient Tomb
10 x Forest

I´m thinking of increasing the number of Loaming Shaman and perhaps giving a chance to 1 iwamori, but i´m not sure about it works well.

Sideboard would be

4 KROSAN GRIP
4 CHOKE
4 POWDER KEG
3 TORMOD´s CRYPT.

Skeggi

04-20-2009, 09:05 AM

Just a little brainfart from me: since this deck doesn't (have to) use Tarmogoyf, some maindeck Graveyard hate in the form of Relic of Progenitus wouldn't be bad, it cantrips, and it kills or at least weakens alot of decks.

That said, with Relic of Progenitus maindeck, it may be fun to run this monkey in your deck:

http://magiccards.info/scans/en/od/241.jpg

If only for the flavor text...

...I now realize Relic of Progenitus sucks in a deck with Chalices and Trinispheres... but still... it's a fun thought nonetheless :wink:.

evilfred

04-20-2009, 09:21 AM

Chalice of the Void + Relic of Progenitus = No no!

Run some Loaming Shaman, now we're talking! The Gorilla is not a bad idea but 3GG is quite intensive on the mana.

TOGITwill

04-21-2009, 10:13 PM

Hey, I ran this list at the April 18th Legacy Tournament at Jupiter Games. I went 3-3. I beat Faerie Stompy, Counter-Top Thresh, and UGWB Fish (I think?) while losing to Team America, Canadian Thresh (lost due to terrible misplay in game 3), and Goblin-Kid. Lol. I went 3-1 in the side event with the same list beating Solidarity, Ichorid, and R/b Goblins, but losing to Ichorid in the finals because I was so incredibly tired and made a metric-butt ton of play mistakes. Enjoy!

x12 Forest
x4 Ancient Tomb
x3 City of Traitors

x1 Progenitus
x1 Empyrial Archangel
x4 Llanowar Elf
x3 Spawnwrithe
x2 Chameleon Colossus
x2 Wickerbough Elder
x2 Elvish Spirit Guide
x3 Vexing Shusher

x4 Natural Order
x4 Call of the Herd

x4 Garruk Wildspeaker

x4 Chalice of the Void
x4 Trinisphere
x4 Chrome Mox

Sideboard:

x4 Relic of Progenitus
x3 Choke
x2 Reverent Silence
x4 Krosan Grip
x2 Pithing Needle

Carabas

04-21-2009, 10:17 PM

What was your thinking on running Llanowar elf, and do you think it was worth running?

Did you miss Briarhorn at all?

TOGITwill

04-21-2009, 10:53 PM

Llanowar elf is absolutely worth running. Against non-blue, it allows for a more accessible turn 2 NO -> Progenitus along with being able to fuel the Shusher, which, btw, was probably the MVP. I've never even tested Briarhorn and not once did I need it on Saturday.

evilfred

04-22-2009, 02:12 AM

It's probably why you never tested it that you never missed it... I suggess strongly that you try it. Some time the difference between a mana elf and a Briarhorn on a top deck make all the difference in the game.

eq.firemind

04-22-2009, 02:27 AM

2 TOGITwill
IMHO 1cc spells + Chalice are BAAAAD, but I didn't test your list, so I belive you have good reasons to run them in your deck.
Just one suggestion: Noble Hierarch will be MUCH better than Llanowar Elf in your deck.

enemyofarsenic

06-29-2009, 03:42 AM

Master of the Wild Hunt?

eq.firemind

06-29-2009, 03:57 AM

Master of the Wild Hunt?
Green creature removal + free token generator?
Looks very promissing!

I'll try something like this:

MANA (22)
10 Forest
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Chrome Mox
- nothing changed

2-COSTED (7)
4 Chalice of the Void - No comments
3 Tarmogoyf - Only 3 'cause we are not very good in feeding it

3-COSTED (17)
4 Elvish Spirit Guide - No comments
4 Spawnwrithe - No comments
3 Tangle Wire - I wanted 5 tempo cards, but no more, so I cut down 1 Wire
4 Call of the Herd - No comments
2 Trinisphere - I run it maindeck to have more explosive 1st-turn drops, to fight Combo, Burn and to free up more SB space.

4-COSTED (13)
4-3 Garruk Wildspeaker - No comments
2-3 Master of the Wild Hunt - Looks like 'WOW, you're AWESOME!!'. Free tokens, CREATURE REMOVAL, can just beat... 2 of theese are already in, but I even think of replacing 4th Garruk with 3rd Master
3 Briarhorn - No comments
4 Natural Order - No comments

UBER-CREATURE (1)
1 Progenitus - No comments

SIDEBOARD:
4 Choke - No comments
2 Trinisphere - To have full 4 when needed
3 Pithing Needle - Against Deed and when I side out Chalices
3 Krosan Grip - You need it.
3 Tormod's Crypt - Against Loam and Dredge

Maveric78f

06-29-2009, 05:12 AM

According to me the strength of green stompy is to be able to generate a crazy amount of creature tokens (with Master of the Wild Hunt, Spawnwrithe, Imperious, Garruk, ...), so that I find equipments very worthy and most of all Smokestack rocks, you can even set it @2 quite reliably. However I never could do anything really good with that kind of builds. I have never tried the Natural Order combo in there neither, even if I can see it being very relevant.

Hopo

06-29-2009, 06:24 AM

NAtural Order made this deck more viable than ever. There are few things that can kill Progenitus, and Smokestack is one of them. I wouldn't try to push them to the same deck. Progenitus is incredibly fast, Smokestack is painfully slow. This deck steals fast wins with turn 1 CotH -> turn 2 Order. And it only takes one more turn to evade all the disruption you can imagine by playing Trinisphere first. This deck kills all blue decks, especially after sideboarding in Chokes. It's a strong contender now that U is everywhere. I also find it more stable than Dragon stompy, since it's less all-in and more beating with huge 10/10 dudes.

Llanowar elves is a terrible choice. It collides with chalice and is so much worse than Wood Elves or Noble Hierarch, which is also unplayable in chalice-decks.

As a rule of thumb, don't play 1cc cards in your chalice-aggro deck.

Regarding Natural Order: has anyone been trying with more than one target? How's that Empyrial Archangel been doing in tournaments?

Maveric78f

06-29-2009, 08:03 AM

How can Smokestack kill progenitus ???
Unless you're dumber than anything I could think about, I don't see how a Smokestack that you control can kill you progenitus.

Hopo

06-29-2009, 08:45 AM

How can Smokestack kill progenitus ???
Unless you're dumber than anything I could think about, I don't see how a Smokestack that you control can kill you progenitus.
I like it how you write like a grown up, without flaming. If you can't see the connection of saccing things and eventually saccing a Progenitus, bummer. Must be the dumbest thing I could think of. Also, good luck consistently assembling a board position of Smokestack, enough mana and a creature to sac to Order.

My main point was that Smokestack is really slow, and when you have Progenitus in play, you don't need anything as slow as that. I'd rather play NO with my 4 mana and give my opponent 2-3 turns to live rather than play a 4 mana blank. You can build a green stax with Smokestack and make a new thread for it, if you like. Smokestack has been discussed through and so far it hasn't had place in any of the chalice aggro variants since adding them and the crucial Crucible is just diluting the main strategy of the deck. I recommend you to try Tangle Wire or Trinisphere if you are into lock pieces. They actually do something in this deck.

Of course, if your testing shows otherwise, please advise us. So far the list Kuma posted last is the most streamlined and fastest version. I play it with minor metagame adjustments, it really plays out well.

Skeggi

06-29-2009, 09:22 AM

Smokestack seems like a good card for this deck: you have alot of permanents to sacrifice to it. But do you really want to? Isn't the idea of this deck to have alot of (big) creatures to stomp your opponent down in the ground? Isn't Smokestack too slow to be effective? Before you know it you're cutting cards for Crucible of Worlds...

Mystical_Jackass

06-29-2009, 09:29 AM

Master of the Wild Hunt?

Zomg... this creature is sick! Green Stompy just pumped some major iron with him included >.>

Maveric78f

06-29-2009, 09:38 AM

I like it how you write like a grown up, without flaming. If you can't see the connection of saccing things and eventually saccing a Progenitus, bummer. Must be the dumbest thing I could think of. Also, good luck consistently assembling a board position of Smokestack, enough mana and a creature to sac to Order.
Just admit that saccing Prog to Smokestack is impossible, you'll definitely sac Smokestack before having to sac prog, except veru rare situations (I can't imagine any realistic, I'm sorry, describe one if you're afraid of a situation).

My main point was that Smokestack is really slow,
That's another subject, but I'm sure a lot of Stax players don't agree with you.

and when you have Progenitus in play, you don't need anything as slow as that.
Oh right sry. I forgot that you had always prog in play.

I'd rather play NO with my 4 mana in cluding GG and a creature and give my opponent 2-3 turns to live rather than play a 4 mana blank.
Fixed.
I would add to this, that Prog can be dealt with, that NO is 2 for 1, that Smokestack is also usually a 3/4 turns clock.

You can build a green stax with Smokestack and make a new thread for it, if you like.[/qutoe]
Thank you.

[quote]Smokestack has been discussed through and so far it hasn't had place in any of the chalice aggro variants since adding them
That was my point. Green has tools for Smokestack, and other Aggro-chalice decks don't have that (except Imp/Demon Stompy, but they already have Braids, so that Stax is inferior).

and the crucial Crucible is just diluting the main strategy of the deck.
Why play crucible ??? I don't get.

I recommend you to try Tangle Wire or Trinisphere if you are into lock pieces. They actually do something in this deck.
Trinisphere is a no brainer. Tangle Wire is a tempo card. I don't think you're aggro enough with green stompy to play it.

Of course, if your testing shows otherwise, please advise us. So far the list Kuma posted last is the most streamlined and fastest version. I play it with minor metagame adjustments, it really plays out well.
I don't get why you deny this option. I'm not sure the Staw option has been debated enough, particularly since the newcomer of 2010 set.

eq.firemind

06-29-2009, 10:26 AM

Trinisphere is a no brainer. Tangle Wire is a tempo card. I don't think you're aggro enough with green stompy to play it.
You are totally wrong here.
Early Spawnwrithe/Garruk followed by Wire just wins games.
The problem with Wire is that you better land a threat first (that's why I cut 1 from my list), but if you did, you have awesome chances to capitalize on that tempo gain and just stomp your opponent before he starts to resist. So why play slower (and 1 mana more expensive) card, when you can land a wire and win now.
Another reason not to run Smokestack - it costs 4 mana and that slot is for Garruk, Natural Order(try it if you didn't - that's THE reason to play this deck) and I believe the new Master of the Wild Hunt:
That new dude is the card that solves a problem Smokestack could solve: creature removal (we run SB Grips for art/ench and can just maindeck some if metagame calls to do that), but he is also green (for better Chrome Mox) and a nice stomper, so I can't think out a reason to run Smokestack after M10 release.

zabuza

06-29-2009, 11:02 AM

I think this guy is not the solution to the deck. I´ve played this deck in tourneys and it´s not as good as i wish it would be.

The lack of creature removal can be solved with powder keg, oblivion stone,..., but not with this guy.

First of all is a 4cc so you can´t play it in first turn. It has only a 3/3 body which is not a great body at all (lightning, chain lightning,......) and you need him to stay al least a turn into play(because it put wolves in your upkeep), but the worst thing about this guy is that it needs to stay on the table at least 3 turns or so to be able to kill lot of very played creatures (gopyf, stalker,and so on...). Is a creature that needs to stay on the table lot of turns to be capable of kill dudes so i think is not good enough. If you play in the same deck Wolf-Skull Shaman and Wren's Run Packmaster it could be playable, but not by itself.

Is just my opinion.

Kuma

06-29-2009, 11:12 AM

I really like Master of the Wild Hunt.

That said, I don't think he belongs in the deck. He costs 2GG, which in my book means you either have to cut Garruk or Natural Order for him. He's not better than either of those cards. The second strike against him is that he's slow. As a damage source he's fairly slow. He swings for three, then five, then seven, but since he costs four mana he's not going to be played early.

The creature removal aspect is nice, but you're going to have to wait at least two turns after you play him to kill anything relevant. It is worth noting that he's good in goyf wars, but so are many other cards we don't run.

He's nuts with Wren's Run Packmaster, but we can't and don't run that.

If you want green creature removal, run Snakeform or pump spells.

tsabo_tavoc

06-29-2009, 12:03 PM

Master of the Wild Hunt?

It is unplayable in Elephant Stompy and a suboptimal choice for Green Stax, if it would ever become competitive.

The simple argument: How does it perform better than Garruk? Master trades 1 for 1 while Garruk gets 1 for 2 or at least 1 for 1 plus fogging a creature attack. 1 for 1 is unaffordable at 4cc and I side out Garruks if the worst scenary is likely to happen (e.g., against Zoo). In a Stax shell, it could function as redundancy for Garruk, however, Crucible might own more merits.

Llanowar elf is absolutely worth running.

I appreciate your playing with the deck and echo your voice for Llanowar Elves. Noble Hierarch or Birds of Paradise are better in many conditions, but I am refering him just to warrant the 1cc T:+G mana slot. Many of my playtesting used to begin awkwardly: Forest, go. Elves increase the odds of having Turn1 play immensely. More importantly, they interact very well with the bombs, being able to cast 2GG more easily and providing food for NO. It works certainly better than Wood Elves who costs you 1 turn to set up. Llanowar Elves does have some drawbacks, but not as huge, in my humble opinion. Being unplayable with Chalice is a pain, however your Turn1 play either goes Tomb, Chalice, or Forest, Elves and Chalice@1 on the board usually buys you enough time to compensate the dead draw. The other dilemma is that it costs G which implys you cannot cut Forest by introducing him. My current mana producers are: 10 Forest, 4 Tomb, 3 City, 4 Mox, 4 Guides, 3 Elves. Swapping Elves for SB alternatives does not hurt the mana base and including them allows the bombs landing faster and more reliable.

Regarding Natural Order: has anyone been trying with more than one target? How's that Empyrial Archangel been doing in tournaments?

More than one NO target is very essential as casting an effective NO covers half of the game plan. I keep a skeptical view on Archangel and play Woodfall Primus as the second target. He hits Combo better than Prog and comes in when I expect an Edict effect (against Goblins and Sui) or have to solve a troublesome noncreature permanent (Moat). Prog generally does better and playing 2 copies is a wise option. I play Woodfall Primus because the combination wins under a wider range of board conditions, in case none of them stocks in the hand.

Hopo

06-29-2009, 01:11 PM

Prog can be dealt with, that NO is 2 for 1, that Smokestack is also usually a 3/4 turns clock.

Progenitus can sure be dealt with, but it's far more difficult than dealing with smokestack, you gotta give me that. And what comes to saccing Progenitus, when you have Progenitus out, you basically have no need to play smokestack. If you have smokestack out, you need a token generator or crucible or a big dude and lots of permanents. I would say just by looking at the decklist that it's way easier to have a green creature to sac for NO than to have a token generator for smokestack.

This deck bashes face. It plays format-hate and fast effective green creatures and turns one of them into Progenitus ignoring opponents plays. Smokestack contradicts with this gameplan. I see your point in using smokestack with various token makers, but in my opinion that is totally different deck. Green stax exists and the new toys could be worth running in that particular deck. Smokestack is terrible if you put it here. To make it worthwhile, you need to add other cards as well. As people have pointed out, it means either cutting the best thing this deck has, NO+Progenitus or Garruk. I don't mind cutting Garruk as I personally find it underwhelming, but if you do, it's one less token generator in the deck. This deck is fast and speed is what keeps it going. Smokestack derails the plan.

I don't get why you deny this option. I'm not sure the Staw option has been debated enough, particularly since the newcomer of 2010 set.
Because I think it's a bad choice. Based on playing this deck a lot and pretty much knowing what it does and how it works. If you have issues with me saying that, read what others have to say about it. And I'm with Kuma with the new token dude not being an auto-include here. I'd almost rather play Chameleon Colossus, which I originally cut for Natural Orders. He's a house.
But since I don't, I will most likely skip the new guy unless someone proves it to be just what this deck needs. I never felt to be lacking removal when playing with Snakeforms and Briarhorns.

Mystical_Jackass

06-29-2009, 01:27 PM

It is unplayable in Elephant Stompy and a suboptimal choice for Green Stax, if it would ever become competitive.

The simple argument: How does it perform better than Garruk? Master trades 1 for 1 while Garruk gets 1 for 2 or at least 1 for 1 plus fogging a creature attack. 1 for 1 is unaffordable at 4cc and I side out Garruks if the worst scenary is likely to happen (e.g., against Zoo). In a Stax shell, it could function as redundancy for Garruk, however, Crucible might own more merits.

It performs different than Garruk though. Garruk can make blockers but can't attack or block on his own, he also doesn't have removal to take out confidants, pile drivers, and such like Master of the wild hunt does.

rufus

06-29-2009, 01:27 PM

How about the recently spoiled Awakener Druid?

When Awakener Druid enters the battlefield, target Forest becomes a 4/5 green Treefolk creature as long as Awakener Druid is on the battlefield. (It's still a land).

You'd need a forest, so not really turn 1 playable, but hasty 4/5 on turn 2.

tsabo_tavoc

06-29-2009, 01:48 PM

How about the recently spoiled Awakener Druid?

Too bad that it is worse than Hungry Spriggan. Looking forward to some more exciting :2: :g: cards!

It performs different than Garruk though. Garruk can make blockers but can't attack or block on his own, he also doesn't have removal to take out confidants, pile drivers, and such like Master of the wild hunt does.

Yes, different and worse. For their main roles, both provide a 3/3 body the turn played; Garruk adds a 3/3 while Master adds a 2/2 next turn. Only after that, Master starts to perform better. For their additional functions, waiting 1 turn to trade 1 creature and 1 tapping with another creature is not as promising as the untapping lands or overruning your troup!

My main point is still: dealing 1 creature is way easier for your opponent than dealing 1 creature and 1 Planeswalker.

rufus

06-29-2009, 02:21 PM

Too bad that it is worse than Hungry Spriggan. Looking forward to some more exciting

Is it really? There's the dependence on forests, but the Druid provides more power a better blocker, and seems like he's no more fragile.

Kuma

06-29-2009, 03:52 PM

I think we have to count Awakener Druid as a 2GG card, because we have to choose between tapping that Forest for mana or attacking with it. It's also terrible if we're using a City of Traitors and Forest for mana or a City/Tomb and Chrome Mox.

I don't think we're running this guy either.

Maveric78f

06-29-2009, 05:31 PM

Progenitus can sure be dealt with, but it's far more difficult than dealing with smokestack, you gotta give me that. And what comes to saccing Progenitus, when you have Progenitus out, you basically have no need to play smokestack. If you have smokestack out, you need a token generator or crucible or a big dude and lots of permanents. I would say just by looking at the decklist that it's way easier to have a green creature to sac for NO than to have a token generator for smokestack.

I got your points. I'd just like to point out that in 90% of the cases, there is no need for a token generator to play Stax. That's something a lot of people are wrong about. Stax is good in this kind of deck because you'll draw 1 permanent each turn when most of your opponents will draw half a permanent or spells they can't play. Just count the difference with threshold.

About the second target of NO, primus is really good because it can be quite easily hardcasted too, especially if you have Garruk in play.

Tacosnape

07-02-2009, 12:53 AM

I've fallen in love with this deck. It's incredible when you run the right cards. It's currently my Chalice Aggro of choice over both Faerie and Dragon Stompy. After about thirty incarnations, this is my current list.

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
5 Forest
5 Snow-Covered Forest
4 Chrome Mox

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
4 Natural Order
2 Progenitus

2 Llanowar Elves
2 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Loaming Shaman
4 Call of the Herd
4 Briarhorn
4 Wickerbough Elder

SB:
4 Krosan Grip
4 Pithing Needle
4 Tsunami
3 Garruk Wildspeaker

(*I'm actually doing this in Chalice Aggro decks after losing a game to where somebody hit a blind Predict on me naming Forest. I figure this is far more likely to happen again than for me to run into snow hate.)

In thirty matches, I managed a 23-7 mark, which I was fairly proud of. I came to the conclusion that my worst enemy was losing the die roll to anything running Discard. Other than that, I found myself having shots against virtually everything.

Things I don't run:

Spawnwrithe or Hungry Spriggan: As beaters who don't really do anything but attack, these guys are weak in a format where creatures bigger than 4/4 reign supreme. I'd rather run guys who give me a shot to get around giant threats. All my threats actually do something.

Other Progenitus targets: Rarely do I ever not just want to grab Progenitus and win. If Progenitus doesn't work, I'll board out the six slots for board tech.

Things I do run that you don't run:

4 Loaming Shaman: I call this deck Centaur Stompy because Loaming Shaman is that amazing. He seriously eats everything ever. Makes Tarmogoyf not an assault-ending problem. Wrecks Ichorid. Hurts Survival, hurts anything with Tombstalker/Lavamancer/Mongoose/Witness. He just does everything ever.

4 Wickerbough Elder: Strong. Four maindeck artifact/enchantment answers prove to be randomly awesome. Tends to do his best work hitting Vial, Dreadnought, and Manlands, but is a beast against lots of other stuff.

4 Briarhorn: Okay, most of you are running this guy. But if you aren't? You should be. He's so good. Whether he's an instant speed 6/6 blocker or a means to power your attack through a larger threat, Briarhorn's the sauce. Randomly gives you even more capacity to massacre Ichorid, too.

4 Fyndowar Llanohorn Elves: Chalice-1 or not, these guys are worth it. Turn two Natural Orders are awesome, as are turn two Chalice-2's. Postboard, these guys are amazing with turn two Garruk's also.

My sideboard choices:

Krosan Grip: The best green board card ever. I run four.

Pithing Needle: I hate Planeswalkers that aren't on my side. I hate Survival. I hate Deed. I hate lots of things that Needle stops. I run four.

Tsunami: This could be Choke, but I strangely like this better. Choke can be circumvented by a well-placed Krosan Grip by some decks. Tsunami has a much sexier ring of finality to it.

Garruk Wildspeaker: Gets boarded in against control and some combo, or any time the NO-Progenitus combo isn't at its strongest. I find him too weak in creature matchups when the deck has virtually no creature removal.

Also note that after a lot of testing, my current opinion is that Call of the Herd is the weakest slot in this deck, especially when I keep having to fuel it with Ancient Tomb. I'll be looking to try other things in the slot, though I'm not sure I'll find anything substantial.

eq.firemind

07-02-2009, 01:40 AM

I still don't sure about running 1-costs in chalice aggro, but wtf, I sould give them a chance!

I'm pretty sure Noble Hierarch >>> manaelves in each and every non-Elf deck.

Tacosnape

07-02-2009, 03:05 AM

I still don't sure about running 1-costs in chalice aggro, but wtf, I sould give them a chance!

I'm pretty sure Noble Hierarch >>> manaelves in each and every non-Elf deck.

They're pretty good. Amazingly, I find I want to Chalice for 2 as often as 1 in this deck, as 2 shuts off several answers to Natural Order/Progenitus. (Edict, Weirding, Smallpox, etc). The Elves facilitate this happening quickly.

As for Noble Hierarch, possibly. I definitely see the allure of Exalted in this deck. I also like that Elves can block with a power of 1, though. It's made a difference.

Maveric78f

07-02-2009, 04:17 AM

I've always thought that 3/3 were weak in this format but you seem to like them above all. They are defini telygood against Gob, but they're small against the rest of the field.

Didn't you feel that you played too much mana (Compared to FS, you play 4ESG and 4 mana elves more). I'm aware you're curve is slightly upper, but it looks a lot to me.

paK0

07-02-2009, 07:19 AM

Just saw this thread again and remembered my own Stompy (which is out of order now because i fell in love with Ichorid again =))

I still wanna post my list since I always found it entertaining (and effective ;P)

4 Ancient Tomb
13 Forest
1 Dryad Arbor

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Tinder Wall
1 Progenitus
4 Iwamori of the Open Fist
4 Elvish spirit Guide
3 Garruk Wildspeaker

4 Natural Order
4 Chrome Mox
4 Trinisphere
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Sword of Fire and Ice
2 Umezawa's Jitte

Sideboard:
3 Krosan Grip
4 Tormod's Crypt
2 Choke
3 Vexing Shusher
3 Thorn of Amethyst

Explanations:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13949

Kuma

07-02-2009, 11:51 PM

Things I don't run:

Tarmogoyf. Why not?

Spawnwrithe or Hungry Spriggan: As beaters who don't really do anything but attack, these guys are weak in a format where creatures bigger than 4/4 reign supreme. I'd rather run guys who give me a shot to get around giant threats. All my threats actually do something.

Spriggan is bad, sure, but Spawnwrithe is the best creature in the deck. He forces your opponent to answer him or lose. He's kind of a crummy late game top deck, but early on he's stolen more games than I care to remember. I run Briarhorn and Tangle Wire which let him hit way more often than he should. I almost never lose after one hit and I've never lost after two.

Not running four Spawnwrithe is madness.

Other Progenitus targets: Rarely do I ever not just want to grab Progenitus and win. If Progenitus doesn't work, I'll board out the six slots for board tech.

I agree that Progenitus is the only target worth finding, but I don't think running two is correct. The odds of drawing both Progenitus and Natural Order by turn three (your first ten cards) when you have one Progenitus and four Natural Orders is a little over 8%. That's higher than the slightly over 1% chance of drawing both Progenituses (Progenitii?) and a Natural Order by turn three, but is that really worth doubling your chances of drawing a dead card every time you draw a card?

I think you're way too reliant on NO/Progenitus

Things I do run that you don't run:

4 Wickerbough Elder: Strong. Four maindeck artifact/enchantment answers prove to be randomly awesome. Tends to do his best work hitting Vial, Dreadnought, and Manlands, but is a beast against lots of other stuff.

No way, dude. This guy isn't better than Garruk. What artifacts and enchantments do we need to destroy game one? Dreadnought? Moat? I'll take my chances and not run a sub-par creature.

Garruk lets you power out creature after creature, is nuts with Tangle Wire, and rapes control. You can do stupid unfair things with Garruk like turn two Garruk + Spawnwrithe, turn three hit with Spawnwrithe, play another creature or two, turn four overrun with Garruk. He lets you play out your hand twice as fast while building for a killing blow.

4 Fyndowar Llanohorn Elves: Chalice-1 or not, these guys are worth it. Turn two Natural Orders are awesome, as are turn two Chalice-2's. Postboard, these guys are amazing with turn two Garruk's also.

What do you really want to play turn one: these guys or a Chalice.

I get it, you're going for NO as quick as possible. I just don't think that's the best way to play out the deck. You're one counterspell away from losing with no real backup plan.

My sideboard choices:

Tsunami: This could be Choke, but I strangely like this better. Choke can be circumvented by a well-placed Krosan Grip by some decks. Tsunami has a much sexier ring of finality to it.

I don't think the extra mana required to play it is worth the ability to dodge Krosan Grip. Choke is final most of the time as long as you don't play it for the sake of playing it.

Garruk Wildspeaker: Gets boarded in against control and some combo, or any time the NO-Progenitus combo isn't at its strongest. I find him too weak in creature matchups when the deck has virtually no creature removal.

Last time I checked the meta at large is control. I guess if you're mostly seeing Goblins, Merfolk, and Zoo this is okay, but I still think he's pretty solid against Goblins and Merfolk. 3/3 is bigger than their average creature.

Also note that after a lot of testing, my current opinion is that Call of the Herd is the weakest slot in this deck, especially when I keep having to fuel it with Ancient Tomb. I'll be looking to try other things in the slot, though I'm not sure I'll find anything substantial.

Agreed. I don't really like the card, but we don't have anything better. It puts sorcery in the yard for goyf and gives you two creatures for one card, but it's not great. That's why I only run three.

Tacosnape

07-03-2009, 12:17 AM

Tarmogoyf. Why not?

Three reasons. I want to Chalice at 2, I run quad Loaming Shaman, and I lack many ways to power him up quickly. He's quite often in the 1/2 range early on.

Spriggan is bad, sure, but Spawnwrithe is the best creature in the deck. He forces your opponent to answer him or lose. He's kind of a crummy late game top deck, but early on he's stolen more games than I care to remember. I run Briarhorn and Tangle Wire which let him hit way more often than he should. I almost never lose after one hit and I've never lost after two.

Spawnwrithe is incredibly easy to answer for any deck in existence, though. Any creature larger than 2/2 can serve as a blocker for him, and we can't do anything about that because we're a green deck. And he's horrible lategame. I agree he's fantastic if he hits, I just don't feel like he hits.

I agree that Progenitus is the only target worth finding, but I don't think running two is correct. The odds of drawing both Progenitus and Natural Order by turn three (your first ten cards) when you have one Progenitus and four Natural Orders is a little over 8%. That's higher than the slightly over 1% chance of drawing both Progenituses (Progenitii?) and a Natural Order by turn three, but is that really worth doubling your chances of drawing a dead card every time you draw a card?

Possibly you have a point. The counter to this logic is that if I do draw the one I have, Natural Order becomes a very weak card for me. But why not be reliable on NO/Progenitus? It and Briarhorn are the best solution the deck has to the game stalling out by both sides having too many creatures.

No way, dude. This guy isn't better than Garruk. What artifacts and enchantments do we need to destroy game one? Dreadnought? Moat? I'll take my chances and not run a sub-par creature.

I'll have to disagree. I think he's a fantastic creature.

Garruk lets you power out creature after creature, is nuts with Tangle Wire, and rapes control.[/QUOTE]

Which is why I keep three in sideboard. I also don't run Tangle Wire, which is only strong if you're running Spawnwrithe.

What do you really want to play turn one: these guys or a Chalice.

Depends. Very often I'm not going to get a turn one Chalice. Very often I'm going to want the Chalice at 2 instead of 1. And sometimes if I have the Chalice and the Elf both, I'm going to have a Chrome Mox to imprint it on. And if I'm going second and my opponent's sitting on an open land that can produce blue, I'm probably not going to want my Chalice walking into an otherwise completely dead Spell Snare. I admit there's situations where the Elves are weak, but powering out turn two NO's, Wickerboughs, Chal-2's, Garruks, etc, and hitting your mana curve at maximum consistency is pretty sweet.

I get it, you're going for NO as quick as possible. I just don't think that's the best way to play out the deck. You're one counterspell away from losing with no real backup plan.

54 other cards in the deck aren't a backup plan? Trinisphere doesn't protect NO? Chalice doesn't shut down cards? Loaming Shaman doesn't make Tarmogoyf smaller than my guys? Briarhorn can't let me swing through an army? This is kind of a stupid assessment, given that my decklist isn't that far off from any others. If I'm a counterspell away from losing, so is any other build packing NO.

Topping that off, I tend to rape Blue. Blue tends to run Counterbalance, Spell Snare, and 1CC Cantrips, and I eat all of this alive.

I don't think the extra mana required to play it is worth the ability to dodge Krosan Grip. Choke is final most of the time as long as you don't play it for the sake of playing it.

Tsunami also doesn't lose to any sort of removal that's already on the board. Eh. This probably could be Choke. I admit I just flat out don't like Choke and should probably try it further.

Last time I checked the meta at large is control. I guess if you're mostly seeing Goblins, Merfolk, and Zoo this is okay, but I still think he's pretty solid against Goblins and Merfolk. 3/3 is bigger than their average creature.

Possibly, but I'm better against control than some versions. Quad Wickerboughs and Quad Loaming Shamans give me a lot of random answers to things. A Wickerbough on the board is a nightmare for topdecked Standstills/Deeds. Loaming Shaman shuts down a lot of annoying recursion. I could reverse the Garruks and the Wickerboughs if I really wanted, but I prefer having the maindeck answers.

Agreed. I don't really like the card, but we don't have anything better. It puts sorcery in the yard for goyf and gives you two creatures for one card, but it's not great. That's why I only run three.

This is kind of the same conclusion I came to. On the bright side, it also removes itself from the yard, which is kind of neat. I think three might possibly be the right number.

Mystical_Jackass

07-03-2009, 12:49 AM

If you did use Spawnwrithe, why not use Elephant Guide then instead of Call of the Herd? It'd give you a boost to trample over and offers a hefty guy to fall back on

eq.firemind

07-03-2009, 01:22 AM

@ Tacosnape
Briarhorn lets Spawnwrithe to connect once (and sometimes trample over a naive blocker) and even one hit is a huge step to win the game.
Tangle Wire makes him a beast and also makes Choke much better.

I tried with 2 Progs, but switched 2nd to 1 Woodfall Primus/Empyrial Archangel and finally just cut that back for more business.

Is it wise to run a total number of 8 art/ench hate? I think the maximum number is 6 and my bet is on 4 Grips sideboard 'cause it solves Deed and Humility and Elder can be just like Garruk's token sometimes. So Maybe -2 Elders, +2 Garruks MD and free up 2 SB slots for something more usefull?

Tacosnape

07-03-2009, 02:06 AM

Very possibly on the 2 Garruks. I wouldn't be against inputting 2-3 Garruks for some combination of 2 Wickerbough and 2 Call.

I still maintain Spawnwrithe isn't good enough. Any removal stops it. Any creature stops it if you don't have Briarhorn. Stifle stops the duplication. EE sweeps the copies, Deed sweeps all of them. Pyroclasm clears them all. And I find it generally useless after about turn three.

Carabas

07-03-2009, 02:21 AM

EE needs to be at 3 to kill the token copies, same with deed. The tokens are exact copies, so they maintain the converted mana cost.

heroicraptor

07-03-2009, 02:32 AM

Kuma would you mind posting your list?

tsabo_tavoc

07-03-2009, 05:04 AM

Is it really? There's the dependence on forests, but the Druid provides more power a better blocker, and seems like he's no more fragile.

It is as fragile if you noticed "as long as Awakener Druid is on the battlefield" and more since the Forest can be removed by StP.

(*I'm actually doing this in Chalice Aggro decks after losing a game to where somebody hit a blind Predict on me naming Forest. I figure this is far more likely to happen again than for me to run into snow hate.)

:wink: couldn't express how much I admire that!

@Elder: Most problematic is his 3GG cost. To active after Turn4, the most game breaking play is taking down a Mishra's Factory or a Vedalken Shackles, which is being substituted by Sower. Consequently, I find him only really amazing against Landstill. In other MUs, as you mentioned, he is just random, too random to win the high cc slot.

@Spawnwrithe: He is 2G and trading him with an answer is fair. Unlike Confidant, he is not always a must answer as a Nacatl can nullify him, in which circumstance he would fog an attack per turn. Fortunately, all 4cc slots could serve to boost him, keeping his potential as a must answer. There are certain decks that lack removal: He is there to punish them.

@Elephant: He eats too much mana. I am reluctant to invest that much during the early game. In the later stages, however, I would not expect a 3/3 matter. I am a fun of Gilt-Leaf Ambush, 2 creatures for 1 spell and good synergy with 4cc bombs.

I agree that Progenitus is the only target worth finding, but I don't think running two is correct. The odds of drawing both Progenitus and Natural Order by turn three (your first ten cards) when you have one Progenitus and four Natural Orders is a little over 8%. That's higher than the slightly over 1% chance of drawing both Progenituses (Progenitii?) and a Natural Order by turn three, but is that really worth doubling your chances of drawing a dead card every time you draw a card?

This is still debatable. Additional Prog reduces the chance of having NO without Prog in the library by 8% (10 cards drawn). The extra Prog enhances the odds of drawing a Prog by 16% (12 cards drawn) or 19% (15 cards drawn). Not having fetchable Prog costs one game much more often than drawing the uncastable Prog. Prog in hand is not necessarily dead as it can sit on a Mox and free up another threat.

EE needs to be at 3 to kill the token copies, same with deed. The tokens are exact copies, so they maintain the converted mana cost.

Thanks for enlightning me on this!

Kuma

07-03-2009, 11:56 AM

Three reasons. I want to Chalice at 2, I run quad Loaming Shaman, and I lack many ways to power him up quickly. He's quite often in the 1/2 range early on.

I think I've had a Chalice at two with a goyf in hand exactly once. It happens, sure, but in my experience it hasn't been a big problem. Tarmogoyf serves the same purpose in Elephant Stompy as it does in TEES: a powerful card in our bad matchups. They're fantastic in the mid to late game against Landstill/ITF, and great against any deck that runs their own goyfs. I tend to board them out against tribal stuff and other decks that don't fill their yards.

Spawnwrithe is incredibly easy to answer for any deck in existence, though. Any creature larger than 2/2 can serve as a blocker for him, and we can't do anything about that because we're a green deck. And he's horrible lategame. I agree he's fantastic if he hits, I just don't feel like he hits.

Well, we've got Briarhorn, Tangle Wire, Garruk's ultimate, and the fact that many decks won't have a blocker for a turn one Spawnwrithe. Chalice at one saves him from most removal and stops a lot of creatures that could block him. Turn one Trinisphere, turn two Spawnwrithe works too.

Yeah, he doesn't always hit, but like Natural Order he forces your opponent to have an answer or die. I don't have numbers to tell you how often he connects, but I'd guess around 40% of the time I cast him.

My opponents hate Spawnwrithe more than any card in the deck except for maybe Natural Order.

Possibly you have a point. The counter to this logic is that if I do draw the one I have, Natural Order becomes a very weak card for me. But why not be reliable on NO/Progenitus? It and Briarhorn are the best solution the deck has to the game stalling out by both sides having too many creatures.

I'll admit that Natural Order is the only reason this deck has my interest. The numbers I gave are for having both cards in hand without taking mulligans into effect (you're fairly likely to mulligan a hand with Progenitus no matter how many you run, which skews the numbers). I've lost a game or two because I had both cards in my hand, but it hasn't been a real problem for me.

In a world without mulligans, he'll only end up in your opening hand once in eight games. Given that we can take mulligans, you're looking at having him and a Natural Order in your hand once, maybe twice over a five round tournament.

I'd have to do a lot of math I don't want to do to figure out what we gain and lose from running the second copy. It's probably not a big deal to run another since there are a few sub-par slots right now anyway.

I'll have to disagree. I think he's a fantastic creature.

Well, you're not the only one. Garruk has been so amazing for me that I can't justify running them in the board to try out 2GGG for a 4/4 with Naturalize attached, or a 2GG 3/3.

I guess they're better if you run mana elves.

Which is why I keep three in sideboard. I also don't run Tangle Wire, which is only strong if you're running Spawnwrithe.

Or Garruk, Trinisphere, or Choke. Also it's pretty good versus tribal decks, Zoo, and White Weenie.

Depends. Very often I'm not going to get a turn one Chalice. Very often I'm going to want the Chalice at 2 instead of 1. And sometimes if I have the Chalice and the Elf both, I'm going to have a Chrome Mox to imprint it on. And if I'm going second and my opponent's sitting on an open land that can produce blue, I'm probably not going to want my Chalice walking into an otherwise completely dead Spell Snare. I admit there's situations where the Elves are weak, but powering out turn two NO's, Wickerboughs, Chal-2's, Garruks, etc, and hitting your mana curve at maximum consistency is pretty sweet.

Maybe I'll give them a shot in the CotH or Loaming Shaman slots. That's a pretty good arguement.

54 other cards in the deck aren't a backup plan? Trinisphere doesn't protect NO? Chalice doesn't shut down cards? Loaming Shaman doesn't make Tarmogoyf smaller than my guys? Briarhorn can't let me swing through an army? This is kind of a stupid assessment, given that my decklist isn't that far off from any others. If I'm a counterspell away from losing, so is any other build packing NO.

What I should have said was that your emphasis on Natural Order and running cards to support it seemed to hurt your chances of winning without it. I didn't mean to imply that you didn't have a prayer without it, just that your chances seemed diminsihed compared to other lists.

Topping that off, I tend to rape Blue. Blue tends to run Counterbalance, Spell Snare, and 1CC Cantrips, and I eat all of this alive.

Me too. :smile:

Especially post board.

Possibly, but I'm better against control than some versions. Quad Wickerboughs and Quad Loaming Shamans give me a lot of random answers to things. A Wickerbough on the board is a nightmare for topdecked Standstills/Deeds. Loaming Shaman shuts down a lot of annoying recursion. I could reverse the Garruks and the Wickerboughs if I really wanted, but I prefer having the maindeck answers.

Quad Wickerbough seems great against all the Next Level crap that's going around and against Painter. The more I think about it, the more it seems okay, but I haven't really felt the need for more removal than my four Grips especially with Choke, Trinisphere, and Tangle Wire. I'm already solid against control without Wickerbough, although it might put the matchup over the top. My sticking point is that the 2GG is clunky and they're bad in a lot of matchups.

Kuma would you mind posting your list?

5 Forest
5 Snow Covered Forest (good idea, Taco)
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Chrome Mox

4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Spawnwrithe
3 Loaming Shaman
3 Call of the Herd
3 Briarhorn

4 Garruk Wildspeaker
4 Natural Order
1 Progenitus

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Tangle Wire

Sideboard:

4 Krosan Grip
4 Choke
4 Trinisphere
3 Pithing Needle