[Deck] Elephant Stompy (formerly Elf Stompy) [Archive]

Roman Candle

06-07-2008, 03:28 PM

I love Faeire Stompy.

Consequently, I can't stand Dragon Stompy or Demon Stompy, because of their consistency issues. Obviously, Faerie Stompy has similar issues, but I like blue more than Red or Black. Out of curiosity, I looked around a bit for a monogreen Stompy build... there's Angel Stompy, Faerie Stompy, Demon Stompy, Dragon Stompy... but no Green Stompy. As Green was simply too cool to neglect, I decided that I'd have to remedy this issue.

Of course, the issue was, "what's the catch?" Faerie Stompy gets FoW, Dragon Stompy has Blood Moon, Angel Stompy has Angel (and sometimes Moat), and Demon Stompy has Bitterblossom, etc. What can Green offer for a Chalice aggro build.

I didn't really know where to start, but it just seemed right to search up "elves" in MWS.

From there, the deck built itself.

Critters:
4 Skyshroud Poacher
2 Elvish Abberation
4 Gamekeeper
4 Skyshroud Sentinel
3 Wood Elves
4 Elvish Spirit Guide

Planeswalker:
3 Garruk

Other Stuff:
4 Chalice
4 Chrome Mox
3 Umezawa's Jitte
3 SoFI
1 SoLS
4 Gilt-Leaf Ambush

Lands:
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
9 Forest

Card Explanations:

Chalice, Mox: No surprise here.

Equipment: Again, relatively standard for Stompy builds... our creatures are very good at replacing themselves, making them dead less often.

Gilt-Leaf Ambush: An instant speed creature that can sometimes be a fluke removal card and if nothing else set up our next draw seems like it could be solid. Also note the synergy with Equipment.

Skyshroud Poacher: This could probably be this build's "hook." The casting cost might seem a bit difficult, but we play solid manafixing. After it resolves, you have a stream of guys to grap Equips and smash into the red zone.

Elvish Abberation: You probably had to look this one up... however, it does grab a forest, and can has an easy mana cost. It's also a monster with Poacher.

Gamekeeper, Skyshroud Sentinel: The most important thing about this deck is maintaining field presence. Gamekeeper and Sentinel do a solid job in this regard.

Wood Elves: A strong turn 1 play that can set up the more difficult mana costs in the deck.

Elvish Spirit Guide: Usually just a Lotus Petal, he can also pick up a stick and whip it around a bit.

Garruk: If Poacher isn't the deck's hook, then this should be. The Untap ability increases your tempo, the beasts maintain the board, and the Overrun ability finishes the game rather reliably.

Choke: The deck's Blood Moon.

Krosan Grip: Relatively self-explanatory.

Trinisphere: Helps the combo and Thresh matchups.

Leyline: This is really mostly filler, but it does help you maximize your Equipment against control.

Questionable Exclusions:

Deranged Hermit: While this guy is generally Poacher's best friend, it just seemed like a hassle to have in hand, as you never really want to pay echo and 3GG for four 1/1's seemed less than stellar.

Imperious Perfect: It fits the curve, but it just seems lackluster.

This probably isn't as good as other Stompy builds, but it does provide interesting possibilities. Help would definitely be appreciated.

Nihil Credo

06-07-2008, 03:56 PM

insertnamehere

06-07-2008, 06:03 PM

Where did the Vial's go?

Sanguine Voyeur

06-07-2008, 06:10 PM

Æther Vials don't work very with Chalice curves. You need to get Vial up to three, which happens on turn four. This deck can drop three costing threats on turn one. Æther Vial is just too slow.

Valtrix

06-07-2008, 08:13 PM

Hmm...there's 10-land stompy, though I don't think the Source has a list for that. I played with it once, so I'm not the best judge on it. The deck is really hit or miss. Here's something like the list:

4x Xantid Swarm
4x Quirion Ranger
4x Llanowar elves
4x Uktabi Drake
4x Rouge Elephant

4x Bounty of the Hunt
4x Berserk
4x Seal of strength
2x Briar shield
4x Rancor
4x Might of Old Krosa

10x Forest
4x Land Grant
4x Elvish Spirit Guide

Board
4x Hidden Gibbons
4x Hidden Guerillas
4x Hidden Herd
3x Krosan Grip

Everytime I played it I won by attacking for 20 in the air =P Not exactly sure if this is what you're looking for, since it's not a "true" stompy build in my opinion. On that note, I kind of want to look for some green creatures to use.

Roman Candle

06-07-2008, 09:23 PM

Changeling Colossus anyone? And I can't believe you're playing Elves and didn't notice Wren's Run Vanquisher.

Also, chumpblockers are fine at all, but not when they cost three mana each (Skyshroud Sentinel - you have the guts to complain of Deranged Hermit and Imperious Perfect?). Gamekeeper is slightly better, but it will still often be worse than a Penumbra Spider.

Collossus probably does belong in the deck; I totally overlooked it.

As for Vanquisher... it's not that I didn't notice it, it's simply that a 2cc guy seemed lackluster in a Stompy build. It would make it harder to go Chalice on 2. Also, there would only be sixteen elves that I could have in hand-- probably enough, but I get pretty paranoid.

Sentinels pick up Equipment. If I were running any less than seven Equipment, I'd cut them... but they really allow the deck to capitalize on a resolved Jitte/Sword/etc.

Also, Penumbra Spider could possibly go in over Gamekeeper, though I worry about the oGoG in it's mana cost. Unlike Dragon Stompy, we don't have Blood Moon or Seething Song, nor Demon Stompy, which has Urborg. We have fucking Wood Elves.

@Valtrix--> I probably should've specified, I mean "Stompy" as in Chalice-Ancient Tomb-City of Traitors decks.

I probably should have noted, this deck is entirely untested and thrown together quite quickly, and as such, is probably far from optimal. Don't go flaming because its got gaping holes in its design-- I didn't have time to analyze every possible card choice.

I'm definitely not suggesting this over another Stompy build... well, I am, but not for power reasons. More because it fucking plays Wood Elves.

Watcher487

06-07-2008, 09:33 PM

Roman Candle

06-07-2008, 09:41 PM

I'd definatly agree here, let alone your almost decent enough to run Sylvan Messanger over Gamekeeper. From the looks of things it's 21 elf spells (ESG is an Elf now), And trample is amazing in stompy decks - Swords of X and Y, anyone?

I know there is another thread for this somewhere... but anyway, Poacher is a very good idea. Card Advantage is good but if you want to run something like Skyshroud Sentinel definatly run Llanowar Sentinal. But if your still looking to run the 1/1 plan why no Pendlehaven or Pendlehaven Elder?

Llanowar Sentinel... shit, I knew there was a Sentinel guy that was better than Skyshroud. Gotta edit the first post... will get to it when I sort this mess out.

Valtrix

06-07-2008, 10:27 PM

Zork

06-07-2008, 10:41 PM

I remember a couple people playing green stompy theorizing about running Plow Under and Trinisphere as disruption in the slots usually occupied by blood moon effects.

Sanguine Voyeur

06-07-2008, 10:50 PM

Although it conflicts with Chalice, Root Maze would work well with Plow and Trinisphere.

Here's an untested list;

Green Stompy x00.02

// Lands
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
10 Forest

// Creatures
2 Iwamori of the Open Fist
2 Genesis
3 Masked Admirers
4 Imperious Perfect
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Elvish Spirit Guide

// Spells
4 Trinisphere
3 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Root Maze
4 Chrome Mox
4 Plow Under

moOnsteak

06-07-2008, 11:42 PM

Oh yeah, I had an idea. Spawnwrithe seems like it could be good in here...I've never actually played with him, but he seems strong on turn 1. However, since green is lacking in good removal, it might be pointless to play him.

Yeah, it's like Mauler in DS, too bad its type isn't elves :cry:

@Mr Roman Candle, if you still wish to use Skyshroud Sentinel, maybe Allosaurus Rider will be a nice addition beater for this deck. .
and about Hermit, maybe this one will be more fit for this build : Thelonite Hermit

cloudstrife7

06-09-2008, 02:09 AM

Questionable Exclusions:

Deranged Hermit: While this guy is generally Poacher's best friend, it just seemed like a hassle to have in hand, as you never really want to pay echo and 3GG for four 1/1's seemed less than stellar.

Why don't you want to play echo if it means effectively a 2 turn clock?
If you're poachering him into play, and don't pay echo, you're actually paying 3 for four 1/1s. I thinks thats pretty solid. Then if you poach another one the next turn, you get the same deal but attack with 2/2s. You have a freaking armada of squirrels, and if Imperious Perfect ( a perfect turn 1 play off tomb+mox) is around, they kill, ummm, very fast.

That said, those synergies are pretty fragile, and don't like pyroclasm, so avoiding them would be understandable.

The problem with more consistent builds, like voyeur's, is that they lack something frightening enough to be a reason to play green (Arc Slogger or Pit dragon with only accelerators in hand is more frightening than any of this. Though I'll admit I've never experienced first turn Imperious Perfect).

Maybe utilizing the color's ridiculous acceleration for more expensive threats like thelonite hermit? Maybe (hangs his head in shame for suggesting this)Natural Order for verdant force or plated slagwurm? It can happen turn 2 with Llanowar elves, and we could always play BOPs, and it can make broken enough things happen to possibly justify the color. Also probably too fragile, like poacher.

Zork

06-09-2008, 06:31 PM

Being an avid player of stompy decks, I feel like the reason that stompy decks win is by exploding into something broken. Blue does this by putting down incredibly efficient beaters while having tutoring, disruption pieces, and control elements all under the acceleration of the double lands, mox, and cloud. Red does this by dropping huge amounts of disruption or disruptive beaters, all while cheating powerful creatures into play via SSG, double lands, seething song, and mox.

I haven't found a good balance for black chalice aggro, but the general idea I tested to the best success was to play the best disruption, Chalice, Sphere, and Nether Void with creatures like Phyrexian Rager and Graveborne Muse to help find as many of them as possible.

I'm not sure how to best go about Green Chalice Aggro, but I think it may be to use green's ability to cheat for mana with its ability to slow the opponent with Root Maze and Plow Under. I'm going to try testing the following list:

9 Forest
4 City
4 Tomb
4 Chrome Mox

4 Poacher
3 Wood Elves
2 Elvish Aberration
2 Deranged Hermit
3 Chameleon Colossus
4 ESG

3 Garruk

4 Chalice
3 Plow Under
3 SoFI
2 SoLS
2 Jitte
4 Root Maze

With a sideboard of maybe Choke, Grip, Loaming Shaman (?), and 3 Spheres.

iOWN

06-09-2008, 06:56 PM

9 Forest
4 Ancient Tombs
4 City of Traitors
4 Chrome Mox

4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Ravenous Baloth
3 Scryb Ranger (flyer, can recur lands when you miss land drops)
3 Garruk Wildspeaker
4 Phantom Centaur
3 Erhnam Djinn (probably redundant at this point)

3 Call of the Herd
4 Sylvan Library
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
3 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte

Some food for thought. I bolded Phantom Centaur and Sylvan Library because I think they deserve consideration. Phantom Centaur has a damn efficient body, is hard to kill, and says "prevent all damage" once you equip a SoFI. Of course, only a good inclusion if you're willing to stray from the elf advantage theme.

Because you have explosive hands, Library is somewhat helpful. Helps you hit business cards, and can refill your hand if need be. Maybe it would work well with some shuffle effects (Loaming Shaman?) As Watcher suggested, if the deck's main focus is elves, Sylvan Messenger is probably a better choice.

Versus

06-09-2008, 07:29 PM

I made "BEAST Stompy" version complete with Blaloths, Chameleon Colossus, Blastoderms, Garruks, and the elf that lets you draw a card every time a beast CIP's. It also had Deranged Hermits and MD Indrik StompHowlers. I was gonna enter it in the CanG, but chickened out. Besides it wasn't really good, just fun.

Willoe

06-10-2008, 05:26 AM

Versus

06-10-2008, 08:21 AM

You asked for it!

I think it was something like this:

4 Mox
4 City
4 Tomb
8 Forest

4 ESG

4 Primal Boost
4 Wirewood Savage

3 Deranged Hermit
3 Chameleon Collossus
3 Blastoderm
3 Garruk
4 Ravenous Blaloth

3 Berserk Murlodont

4 Jitte
4 Chalice

SB was transformational for decks where Chalice wasn't needed. Goyfs, Rancors, ect.

Garruk with Wirewood Savage seemed techy if not cute, the Murlodonts do pump most of you Beasts, and Hermit was a good finisher with a Garruk on 4. Primal Boost was just random pump that fit the curve.

The downside really, as all of you know, is too much GG in the casting costs. Some Faerie Stompy builds frown upon Sower because of UU and this deck is packed with them. ESG helps a little in that regard, but not much. Also with such little evasion, the 3cc equipments didn't fuction as well as in the other Stompy colors so I just went with straight Jitte as the weapon of choice. It's a shame too, cause SoLS would be SO awesome with Hermit.

Like I said, not good, just fun.

Funlicker

06-10-2008, 09:14 AM

Versus, what about using wirewood savage? It's 2G and it gives you a card everytime you play beast. I was about to suggest a list focusing on beasts using him, but I didn't think any such list would have any edge over the existing competitive stompy lists in other colors. You could also play Krosan Warchief for 2G giving all your beasts regeneration, although it screws with the mana costs abit, so you'd still likely pay 2GG for creatures costing 2GG. Creatures like ravenous baloth wouldn't likely benefit from the cost reduction, but 3G, 4G, 3GG and such creatures would. Krosan Tusker, for example, would benefit. Though I'd much rather play creatures like Ravenous Baloth than 2/2's for 2G, I thought it'd be worth mentioning.

A possible list could be:

4x City of Traitors
4x Ancient Tomb
10x Forest
4x Chrome Mox

4x Wirewood Savage
4x Elvish Spirit Guide
4x Krosan Warchief (maybe)
4x Other Beast
4x Other Beast

4x Chalice of the Void
4x Trinisphere
4x Plow Under (been finding this to be a tough casting cost)
3x Umezawa's Jitte
3x Sword of Fire and Ice

Edit: Oops, didn't realize you already have wirewood savage in your list.. x_x

Versus

06-10-2008, 09:24 AM

Yeah, the Savage is the real reason I thought I'd give it go. I did try out the Warcheifs, but like you said by the time you pay the GG for most of the 4cc Beasts, you're left with only needing :1: to cast him, but probably sitting there with a 2cc land anyway.

One of the things that did cross my mind while jamming that allgether though was Mutavault. For one it would allow you to dump that extra :1:, and even better it would become a "Beast" netting you a card on your turn as well as your opponents with Savage in play. Of course finding room for 4 more colorless lands was impossible.

Zork

06-10-2008, 12:33 PM

Well, from a bit of testing last night I have come to the conclusion that Spawnwrithe is an amazing first turn drop, and may be better than Chameleon Colossus. The main thing that stompy decks need are cards that read "Answer me or lose." Faerie stompy has drakes and efreets, DS has Slogger, Dragon, and sometimes Magus. So far I have yet to lose a game where Spawnwrithe connected (especially in an equipment heavy build) or poacher came online. Also, Root Maze is a beating - play it.

Roman Candle

06-10-2008, 01:02 PM

Illissius

06-10-2008, 01:59 PM

Spawnwrithe does look very strong. Maybe it will provide the reason for the deck's existence.

That said, are we discussing Elf Stompy in this thread, or any green Stompy decks in general?

Roman Candle

06-10-2008, 02:03 PM

Spawnwrithe does look very strong. Maybe it will provide the reason for the deck's existence.

That said, are we discussing Elf Stompy in this thread, or any green Stompy decks in general?

Meh... I called it 'Elf Stompy' just cuz all the others were named after creature types... it just randomly worked out to be Elf-based.

So, either/or, I suppose.

Ray.N

06-10-2008, 03:55 PM

This is the equipment heavy build I would play, although it is untested:

10 Forest
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb

4 Elvish Spirit guide
4 Wood Elves
4 Spawnwrithe
4 Silhana Ledgewalker
2 Deranged Hermit/finisher

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Chrome Mox
4 Plow Under
4 Call of the Herd
3 Sword of Fire and Ice
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
2 Garruk Wildspeaker

Are there too many :g: :g: costing cards such as Garruk, Plow Under, and Deranged Hermit?

I think Call of the Herd would be great as it is an automatic 2-for-1 and works well with equipment. Plow Under also seems like it would be good, but it may be too slow. I think Silhana Ledgewalker deserves a thought; he seems good to break stalls on the ground and/or just win the game by himself with some equipment.

I want to fit Root Maze into this list somewhere, but I have no idea what to take out. Any suggestions?

Edit: After a little testing, Spawnwrthe is amazing and just what this deck needs. He's a threat that gets out of control very quickly; playing one turn one for two usually wins you the game.

Zork

06-10-2008, 04:58 PM

I'm not sure Plow Under is worth it anymore. I haven't had it swing a match yet, so it may be a win-more card. You could try Root Maze there. Also, with Wood Elves at 4 you can probably cut down to 9 Forests.

Ledgewalker is interesting. I think he might be too weak, but maybe with the equipment focus he will be worth it.

As for builds with Poacher, the following is a list of elf cards that may be worth inclusion either as a bullet or finisher:

Caller of the Claw - Poach in response to removal maybe
*Deranged Hermit - Especially with a SoLS
*Elvish Aberration - Big 4/5 , Good with SoLS, and mana fixer
*Glissa, Sunseeker - Good with equips, artifact removal, not terrible alone
Masked Admirers - Card Advantage with recurribility
Oracle of Nectars - Life gain?
*Viridian Shaman - Artifact destruction on a body, uncounterable when poached
Wirewood Guardian - Big 6/6, mana fixing, good with SoLS
Wren's Run Packmaster - Big 5/5, needs other elf

Most of these are unplayable, but I think that maybe the ones with *'s might have a home in the deck or some version of the deck.

Illissius

06-10-2008, 05:40 PM

Here's another look at Elf Stompy, with a much bigger emphasis on tribal and swarms:

4 Wren's Run Vanquisher
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Imperious Perfect
4 Timberwatch Elf
4 Gilt-Leaf Ambush
4 Sylvan Messenger
4 Hunting Triad
4 Immaculate Magistrate
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Chrome Mox
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
10 Forest

Intuition says it may be too slow, and City/Tomb/Mox might not be the best fit for a deck which wants to play semi-expensive cards turn after turn to overwhelm the opponent (but Faerie Stompy apparently has no trouble with the Mulldrifter plus SoLS plan, so who knows).

Valtrix

06-10-2008, 05:44 PM

Do you guys really find that root maze helps? I personally haven't played with it much, but it just feels like it would slow you down just as much as them. It's also anti-synergy with chalice (since you almost always want that out first), and can pretty much only be removed to mox... Speaking of testing, how do you guys test? I'm trying to find a good way to test decks, but it's hard to play against myself and workstation doesn't always have very good decks/people on it...

I do like the idea of elvish aberration. It plays a big role here since it can manafix (via cycling or while in play), and when you cycle it you can even have a target for SoLS. Poacher seems like a good engine--Your opponent should have quite a bit of trouble dealing with all the creatures that come out of it.

Plow under does seem like win more. Plus, I don't like the 5cc and GG in the cost. At best it just stalls for time, but I think you really want to be putting threats out all the time. Speaking of which, was gigapede dismissed as a threat? I think it could be good in a 2x role in the deck, even if it's not an elf. Nice body, shroud, and recursion all seem good.

Still waiting for the big "hook" in green stompy...Maybe the sum of all the parts will be greater than the whole =P

iOWN

06-10-2008, 05:49 PM

Still waiting for the big "hook" in green stompy...Maybe the sum of all the parts will be greater than the whole =P

I think Zork already hit it. Spawnwrithe is fantastic in this deck, and gives a boost to it's inevitability. With Garruk + Efficient Creatures + Equipment + Spawnwrithe, the deck looks like it can pull off a solid early -and- late game. Other colors may be more effective in this kind of shell, but green is looking like it might be able to pull off a Chalice Aggro deck too.

Edit - Find other people on the source who are willing to test with you, and find some time to test with them over MWS.

Versus

06-10-2008, 06:01 PM

Wait, wait, wait! Spawnwrithe makes a copy of itself? Not a "token" copy? In otherwords the copy makes copies and so on and so on??

Zork

06-10-2008, 06:03 PM

Valtrix:

Root Maze is very much so a better first turn play than Chalice at 1, since it makes them waste a turn dropping mana before they can use it. Also, it allows really nice plays with a mox/ESG. Maze + Chalice at 1 with any castable threat in hand is almost always a win, or against combo playing maze and chalice at 0 is very strong. I have only had it conflict with Chalice at 1 in one game, and I actually only lost because I drew 3 of them and a bunch of land when my opponent had a 5/6 goyf - which was reminiscant of drawing nothing but blood moons and chalices against a thresh opponent with a goyf in play.

I think I'm going to drop Plow Under for the 4th Spawnwrithe, another Elvish Aberration, and then some utility guys. I will try out 1x Loaming Shaman, 1x Viridian Shaman, and 1x Glissa to see if they deserve slots in the deck.

Valtrix

06-10-2008, 06:17 PM

Yes, the copies multiply. I think that's half the point =P
EDIT: Nevermind about the boosts. I just need to know more rules.

Hmm, I guess I can see where maze would be useful. You definitely need the time more than they do, and it especially will hurt when they're low on land. I'll just have to put together a list and try it out to gauge it's actual effectiveness. One viridian shaman would be nice, but I'd almost perfer Viridian Zealot for more utilitiy...Even if he does die.

Versus

06-10-2008, 06:29 PM

Oh man, that's pretty good then. I don't think you're getting the +2/+2 with it, though. If that were the case we need some Might of Oaks up in here! :wink:

I dunno where this will go, but I can say one thing, If a deck like this actually becomes competitive allowing me to rock my favorite creature of all time at a Legacy tournament....

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v241/KSC2-303/squirrels.jpg

Well, let's just say I'm fuckin' ready!

moOnsteak

06-10-2008, 08:31 PM

Question :

When Spawnwrithe (equipped with SoFI for example) deals combat damage to player, what copy will be made? 2/2 with original ability? or 4/4 with original ability plus SoFI additional ability?

Phantom

06-10-2008, 10:49 PM

Glad to see some people working on G Stompy. I started working on the deck just over two years ago, and it has really gotten some good tools since. I'm not so sure it's "there" yet, but it's definitely close (much like DemonStompy IMO). Here are some of my thoughts/questions:

- Drop the Beast/Elf nonsense. The Tomb/City/Chalice shell is not the place for elves, and Beasts are simply not competitive.

- Tarmogoyf. Where is he in these lists??? Way too good not to be included. I can't believe I had to bring him up.

- Plow Under is win more, expensive situational crap and should not be considered in a meta this fast. Deranged Hermit should not be run. I really see no reason to run 5cc mana hungry beaters that aren't that much better than our 4cc bombs (Garruk, Chameleon Colossus) and get easily neutered by commonly played cards (Exlosives, Deed).

- I really don't see Root Maze being playable. I mean, take any hand of Tomb (or City), Forest, Maze and Chalice. Now let's say you're on the play against any multitude of blue decks in the meta. You could lead with Chalice and make your Maze useless, or you could lead with Forest -> Maze, let them drop a tapped Land, then play your tapped 2 mana land, let them drop another tapped land, THEN play your Chalice opening up the following plays:
- Double Daze
- Spell Snare
- Brainstorm into Force/2nd Daze
- Ponder into Force/2nd Daze (on their turn)
- Nimble Mongoose (on their turn)
- FoW

Note of all those, only having Force and a blue card in their opening grip would have stopped Chalice.

- Spawnwrithe is the real deal and forms a nice quick strike aggro package with Goyf. As for the other beaters, I think Call of the Herd, Garruk, and Chameleon Colossus are the frontrunners. Call gives you nice card advantage against control. Garruk needs no explanation except to say that its untap ability is even MORE nuts here, and Chameleon Colossus basically comes with it's own equipment, and makes a great valve for extra mana. River Boa intrigues me greatly, but probably doesn't make the first cut.

- One problem I've found with G Stompy is the combo matchup. While the other colors have a card to supplement Chalice, green pretty much has el zilcho. This might force green to run some amount of Trinis main in order to compete.

- I actually think Green Stompy can get away with a small equipment count. I think I'll start testing 3 Jittes and 2 SoFI. Light and Shadow probably has no place here thanks to the dis-synergy with Call and Garruk.

- The Sideboard is an interesting question as there are lots of creature versions of abilities available to us (Stomphowler vs Grip for example). Also, I've never been clear on whether Wheel of Sun and Moonis better or worse than crypt (and if Loaming Shaman is worth consideration).

Here's what I would start testing:

// Lands
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
4 [EX] City of Traitors
10 [RAV] Forest

// Creatures
3 [LRW] Garruk Wildspeaker
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [AL] Elvish Spirit Guide
4 [SHM] Spawnwrithe
4 [MOR] Chameleon Colossus
2 [FNM] River Boa

// Spells
3 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
2 [DS] Sword of Fire and Ice
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
4 [TSB] Call of the Herd
2 [DS] Trinisphere
2 [TSP] Krosan Grip

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [DS] Trinisphere
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [SHM] Wheel of Sun and Moon
SB: 3 [TSB] Hail Storm
SB: 2 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 [TE] Choke

insertnamehere

06-10-2008, 11:26 PM

Call me whatever you want. Goyf is just another creature that depends on something else to make it larger. early game it sits there and waits for something to go into the graveyard. I also feel there are 2 ways to go with this:
Elves using Poacher
Non elves using very few elves mixed with natural order(Dramatic Entrance), Xantid Swarm (maybe) and some fatties like sky swallower/Woodfall Primus etc..

What about trying something using the Persist ability?

Bruticus

06-10-2008, 11:51 PM

Wurmcalling (http://magiccards.info/ts/en/234.html) is worth testing with Garruk.

Illissius

06-11-2008, 12:14 AM

Other random potential inclusions I haven't seen much mentioned:

Hungry Spriggan
Forgotten Ancient
Hunted Wumpus
Blastoderm
Iwamori
Natural Order
Nantuko Vigilante
Hystrodon
Thelonite Hermit
Saproling Burst
Spectral Force
Moldervine Cloak
Overgrowth
Stunted Growth

Good old Blastoderm in particular is tickling me. They can't Swords it or anything, taking it out with EE or Deed is difficult and/or expensive, and asides from creatures played by Aggro Loam, there's almost nothing in the format bigger than it; in other words, it looks like a pain in the ass to deal with for any deck which can't keep chumping it (e.g. not Goblins or Survival). Downsides: :g::g:, fading, can't carry equipment.

Roman Candle

06-11-2008, 06:42 AM

I haven't been able to get online and play in a while, but has anyone considered Harmonize? A Draw-3 would keep us from running low on steam. It might be too slow, though.

idraleo

06-11-2008, 07:30 AM

I were around the deck last summer, i was searching for something new to build around the 2 mana Lands, and i scooped out with this. I found that the deck had good MU vs ThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh, Burn, Comboish, Zoo and other random aggro, AngeLstax and DragonStompy, but had a poor mu against Landstill, MUC and Rock control variants. Here' s what i've been playing:

// Lands
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
1 [CHK] Okina, Temple to the Grandfathers
4 [EX] City of Traitors
13 [CS] Snow-Covered Forest

// Creatures
3 [BOK] Iwamori of the Open Fist
4 [ON] Ravenous Baloth
2 [UD] Masticore
3 [TSP] Thelonite Hermit
4 [AL] Elvish Spirit Guide
2 [FUT] Quagnoth
3 [LRW] Garruk Wildspeaker

// Spells
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
4 [DS] Trinisphere
3 [MR] Chrome Mox
3 [UD] Powder Keg
3 [PLC] Harmonize

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [UD] Powder Keg
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [UD] Compost
SB: 3 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 3 [TSB] Hail Storm
SB: 3 [TE] Choke

BTW, we can consider to go more aggroish by adding Jitte, Gathan Riders and some ChameLeon Colossus, or keep more controllish and keep a most interacting decklist like this one.

Kuma

06-11-2008, 09:46 AM

Well, I was going to test this a little more before posting it, but since MWS was down last night, here it is:

Elemental Stompy

10x Forest
4x Ancient Tomb
4x City of Traitors

3x Garruk Wildspeaker
3x Briarhorn
4x Tarmogoyf
1x Iwamori of the Open Fist
4x Spawnwrithe
4x Chameleon Colossus
4x Elvish Spirit Guide
4x Call of the Herd

4x Chrome Mox
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Sword of Fire and Ice
3x Umezawa's Jitte

Sideboard:
4x Choke
3x Loaming Shaman
4x Trinisphere
4x Krosan Grip

Briarhorn is absolutely nuts, especially with Spawnwrithe. Briarhorn can come out of nowhere, kill opposing goyfs and stick around to swing for three. He's great at getting your Spawnwrithes to hit your opponents early on too.

Based on what little testing I did, goyf wasn't all that great. Elemental Stompy doesn't put a lot of cards in the graveyard, so you've got to rely on your opponent a little there.

I think my equipment count might be a little high, but like I said, I need to test more.

EDIT: Upon further review, Briarhorn is absolutely freaking nuts. He's like a green Nekrataal, only better.

Swing4Five

06-11-2008, 12:02 PM

I like this idea a lot. Here's a stab at it from me.

10 Forest
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb

4 Elvish Spirit guide
4 Wood Elves
4 Spawnwrithe
2 Chameleon Colosuss
3 Briarhorn / Hystrodon

4 Call of the Herd
3 Garruk Wildspeaker

4 Chrome Mox
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
4 Sword of Fire and Ice
2 Umezawa's Jitte

Sideboard
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Loaming Shaman
4 Krosan Grip
4 Choke

additional Sideboard considerations
Stomphowlers, Glissa, or V. Shaman
crypts/leylines additional GY hate in appropriate meta

The Trinis' seem nessecary as you do not have the Magus' of DS or the FoWs of FS.

You get your card advantage from Spawnwrithe triggers, Equipment and the Briarhorn tricks or Hystrodon attacks.

The goyf's are boarded in agianst decks that Chalice @ 2 isn't good agianst, and still have a healthy 'yard for him (Survival?).

I really wanted the full set of Colosuss' in there... but didn't know where else to cut and he was the only thing outside Garruk with GG still in the cost. Maybe switch one for a Call?

The other slot I'm wondering about is the Wood Elves, how needed is that extra land? Could some or all four of these slots be better used?

Looking forward to throwing this around.

Some sort of forgotten/new mid-fat green utility creature could make this a Tier 2 contender.

Jaynel

06-11-2008, 12:15 PM

Chameleon Colossus is BATSHIT INSANE. It's pretty much Rakdos Pit Dragon.

Swing4Five

06-11-2008, 12:18 PM

Ok then, maybe...
+2 Colosuss
-1 Call
-1 Wood Elves

I dunno... and if it ends up the Wood Elves aren't that good, maybe they could make room for some Gathan Raiders or something else fat.

Versus

06-11-2008, 12:38 PM

Some sort of forgotten/new mid-fat green utility creature could make this a Tier 2 contender.

I hate how Orhan Viper gets no love in Legacy. If he were fucking 2G he would be so great in here.

Sims

06-11-2008, 12:50 PM

I'm kinda sketchy one wood elves here..... Yeah, turn 1 wood elves goes into turn 2 pretty much anything in your hand... but a 3 mana fraile ass 1/1 that once you get 2-3 lands in play really starts making less and less of a difference (say past the first 2-3 turns) seems rather weak.. I'd almost want a Vetran Explorer there if it didn't give lands to your opponents... chump off early for mana boost, then every one after drops to chrome or carries jittes and swords.... but setting your opponent up with deed mana or something just seems silly in this kind of deck.

Could that slot be Piggy if you are looking for lands, maybe? Or if it's deemed that the extra land boost isn't needed then we can replace him with almost anything... Hell, if the land boost isn't required then Isao is a much better card than wood elves.

Jaynel

06-11-2008, 12:54 PM

Wood Elves has pretty hot synergy with City of Traitors; I think that's a large part of its inclusion.

Valtrix

06-11-2008, 01:09 PM

THe mana-acceleration on the elves is kind of iffy, however, they can help you with city of traitors too. Say you play a first turn wood elves off of city and mox, then you get a forest into play without having played it from your hand. Next turn you can cast your 4cc cards without destroying the city =)
I definitely think it's one of those cards that will need some testing. I don't know if it's worth using the first turn just to accelerate out a land and get a 1/1 creature.

You know, spawnwrithe + sword of fire and ice is ridiculous xD

EDIT: Yeah, I typed this up and let it sit here for about 20 minutes.

Versus

06-11-2008, 01:19 PM

Aren't 2cc lands, Mox, ESG, and Garruk enough mana acell already? I mean all Stompy's have a third ace up their sleeve. Faerie has CoF and Dragon has SSG and Seething Song. It would seem Garruk would be this decks. I don't know why another slot should be taken up by it.

Having 9 mana on turn two is amazing. Having nothing to cast with it, not so much.

idraleo

06-11-2008, 07:06 PM

did u find right with only 18 stable mana sources? The deck is just filled of double green cmc, and its insane to loose on a right timed Wasteland. I felt right whit 22 mana sources, cause the deck seems to have a different approach and gameplan compared to dragon and faeries stompy...

Ozymandias

06-12-2008, 02:40 AM

Anybody consider Loaming Shaman? Since this deck puts absolutely no cards in the grave, it's a much better answer for Goyf than Briarhorns, especially since it's cheaper and has a better power-to-mana ratio and does better versus graveyard-dependant decks like Ichorid or the like.

Illissius

06-12-2008, 08:37 AM

So gathering up what everyone else has written, what about something like this?

4 Elvish Spirit Guide
2 Wood Elves
4 Spawnwrithe
4 Loaming Shaman
4 Call of the Herd
4 Briarhorn
4 Chameleon Colossus
3 Garruk Wildspeaker
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Trinisphere
4 Chrome Mox
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
10 Forest
SB: 4 Choke
SB: 4 Pithing Needle
SB: 3 Krosan Grip
SH: 2 Hail Storm
SB: 2 Trinisphere

Wood Elves: I'm concerned with all the :g::g: costs in the deck, and this is probably better than just adding more Forests. If it turns out not to be necessary, it could become the last two Spheres or some Swords or something.

Loaming Shaman: I used to have this as an ideal sideboard candidate, but Ozymandias makes a good point, and with all the decks around playing Tarmogoyf, you'd probably be siding it in more often than not (and randomly hosing all the graveyard dependant decks from the maindeck never hurts, either) -- and even in the worst case, it's a 3/2 for :2::g:. So it seems solid. There've been conflicting reports about how good Tarmogoyf itself is in the deck, either awesome or mediocre; if it's actually the former, these could move to back to the board and have the Tarmogoyfs take their place.

Jitte: I think I'd rather have more threats than more equipment, and I went with these over Swords because they give you something productive to do if you only have two mana on the first turn and no Chalice. And they help against Burn and the like.

Pithing Needle: Tacosnape swears by them in Dragon Stompy; I'm not sure if any of the rationale for them changes with this deck.

Hail Storm: Do we need anything against Goblins? Does there exist anything else we could use?

Kuma

06-12-2008, 11:32 AM

In my limited testing, Goyf was usually a 3/4 or 4/5, but was frequently a 2/3. The only things I played that pumped him were City of Traitors and Call of the Herd. He's a much better late draw than an early one, and I'm still torn on his usefulness.

As for Loaming Shaman vs Briarhorn as anti-goyf tech, I'd rather kill goyf than simply shrink him. Besides Briarhorn does so much in this deck, whereas Loaming Shaman is much narrower. That's why I keep the Shamans in the board for Ichorid, Survival, and other graveyard dependent decks.

@Illisius: I like that list a lot, but I'm not sure about Loaming Shaman in the main and I'm not sold on Wood Elves at all.

Ozymandias

06-12-2008, 11:36 AM

Kuma

06-12-2008, 11:44 AM

I'm pretty sure that Briarhorns shouldn't be there, since it's just an Hill Giant that'll occasionally get to surprise-block. I'd much rather play something that doesn't die to as much removal like Masticore. Also, I think this deck needs equipment more than other Stompy variants, since it's not as disruptive.

Have you played with Briarhorns?

Briarhorn:
- Almost always kills an attacking creature, sometimes two
- Lets you play around board sweepers by casting him at the end of your opponent's turn
- Can be used offensively to kill blockers
- Is nuts with Chameleon Colossus late game
- Makes combat math impossible for your opponent
- Gets a creature in the yard to pump Goyf
- Helps Spawnwrithe hit the opponent

And that's just on the turn you play him. After that, he's only a Hill Giant.

Illissius

06-12-2008, 01:16 PM

Yeah, I had Briarhorn in my way-fucking-long-list-of-every-creature-possibly-worth-considering, but passed over it at first because for some reason you (or at least I) tend to think of the Evoke creatures as split cards, where it's either :1::g: for Giant Growth or :3::g: for Hill Giant -- when the latter is actually :3::g: for Hill Giant with Flash plus Giant Growth, which is, actually, pretty good. Hardcasting Briarhorn targetting Spawnwrithe when your opponent blocks it seems like it could be a... strong play.

As for Loaming Shaman vs Briarhorn as anti-goyf tech, I'd rather kill goyf than simply shrink him. Besides Briarhorn does so much in this deck, whereas Loaming Shaman is much narrower. That's why I keep the Shamans in the board for Ichorid, Survival, and other graveyard dependent decks.

My list has both. The question isn't Loaming Shaman vs Briarhorn, it's Loaming Shaman vs Tarmogoyf.

People who don't use Wood Elves or anything of the sort: Do you have any trouble with the :g::g: in Garruk's and Chameleon Colossus's cost, and the latter's ability? The Elves are purely a question of "are they necessary or are they not necessary", and if they're not necessary then they're out faster than you can blink.

Phantom

06-12-2008, 02:02 PM

People who don't use Wood Elves or anything of the sort: Do you have any trouble with the :g::g: in Garruk's and Chameleon Colossus's cost, and the latter's ability? The Elves are purely a question of "are they necessary or are they not necessary", and if they're not necessary then they're out faster than you can blink.

No, you don't need them. 14 Green sources plus 4 ESGs coupled with 7ish spells that require :g::g: is just fine. Even if i needed more (and I don't) I'd rather play with that forest cycler so at least it's decent late game.

As for the creature base, I can't believe anyone is discounting Goyf. I played a ton of test games against Thresh and Landstill last night, and he was his usual awesomness. I think I swung with him once as a 2/3 and a few times as a 3/4 (amazingly I swung with him as a 7/8 a couple times against 'Still as they like to counter Garruk and blow Deeds). HE NEEDS TO BE IN THIS DECK. I will yell at those who say otherwise for sheer incompetence.

I will admit that I haven't tested Briarhorn, but I can really only see him replacing equipment slots as there is no way he's better than our top 5 beater slots. Basically, i think the deck should start with the following creatures (not including ESG):

4 Goyf
4 Chameleon Colossus
3-4 Garruk
4 Call of the Herd
4 Spawnwrithe

After that, I'm not sure if equipment is better than Briarthorn, if River Boa deserves a spot, if Grip is maindeck material, and how many Trini's need to be main in order to keep the deck competitive in an open meta.

...more to come.

idraleo

06-12-2008, 02:13 PM

Phantom

06-12-2008, 03:53 PM

Noone has consider Caller of the Claw as a possible candidate for sideboard? It did well in mainboard too, helping a lot against sweepers as Pernicious and Wrath, adding another istant blocker and replacing 1 or 2 creatures vanishing opponents threats.

Caller is awful here as about half of our creatures are tokens and we don't want to keep our mana open. I'd rather have Needle/Grip for Deed and simple play around Wrath.

iOWN

06-12-2008, 04:12 PM

Phantom

06-12-2008, 05:29 PM

'Goyf isn't good in this deck at all. 2G is usually equivalent to a 1-drop, meaning his CC to P/T ratio isn't even far above average (many times, the 1G forces me to mana burn). Before TSP Block, I played this deck testing Plant Elementals, which have the same casting cost (plus a forest :/), usually the same P/T, and are equally terrible.

Ugh. When they print a 2G that averages a 4/5 with no drawback, I'll run it. Till then I'll take the occasional one burn and run the best beater ever printed, and so should everyone else.

Valtrix

06-12-2008, 05:41 PM

Well, here's some things to consider. Although we're not really running a lot of cards that get land to our graveyard (city) or instants or sorceries, goyf is still going to be big because most other decks do. A slight bonus we have to goyf is Garruk, since he's a card type that rarely gets to the graveyard, but will here. Not to mention post-board opponents are going to want to be killing our artifacts. Can also evoke a briarhorn if we really want more tricks =P So, he might not be a 7/8 every game, but I still expect him to be a 3/4 or better, which seems good for two mana. We have enough other threats to play that we don't need to worry about first turn goyf either.

Zork

06-12-2008, 06:43 PM

I strongly feel that Briarhorn belongs in the deck at least as a 3 of, and I refuse to cut wood elves. Its because of wood elves that you can actually have consistant mana. I tested running a singleton Dryad Arbor as well so they can cheat a sword-holder into play with themselves. So far it has been fine, especially if you still run root maze. First turn elves to forest to root maze lets you untap with 4 mana while they take at least one turn to get online.

Goyf is also good, because if your opponent isn't putting instants or sorceries into the yard it is very likely that you are winning. The list I'm testing right now, which has done well for me, is this:

// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
9 [5E] Forest (1)
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
4 [EX] City of Traitors
1 [FUT] Dryad Arbor

// Creatures
3 [GTW] Wood Elves
4 [SHM] Spawnwrithe
3 [LRW] Briarhorn
4 [MOR] Chameleon Colossus
4 [AL] Elvish Spirit Guide
3 [LRW] Garruk Wildspeaker
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf

// Spells
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
4 [TE] Root Maze
3 [DS] Sword of Fire and Ice
2 [DS] Sword of Light and Shadow

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [TE] Choke
SB: 4 [DS] Trinisphere
SB: 3 [LRW] Primal Command
SB: 4 [TSP] Krosan Grip

raharu

06-12-2008, 10:13 PM

Why hasn't Krosan Tusker elicited more attention as a replacement for Wood Elves? Piggy's strong in the late game, fixes mana in the early game, and he's CA in green. Has anyone tested him?

Pulp_Fiction

06-13-2008, 02:16 AM

Why would you exclude Ravenous Baloth from a deck like this? Solid 4/4 for 2GG that sacks to gain 4 life. I get the elf synergy but with the direction the deck is starting to take maybe we should start a separate thread. There was another thread here: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9155&highlight=grasstompy

This deck has gone way off of Elf Stompy into Green Chalice Stompy. Which I personally like and would love to see tested. Maybe we should start a new thread for just Green Chalice Stompy.dec and discuss what creatures should be run and in what quantities we should run them. The reason I suggest this is that the deck is no longer Elf Stompy it is mono green Chalice Stompy with Wood Elves.

Roman Candle

06-13-2008, 06:47 AM

I don't think we need a separate thread... I think everyone's pretty much abandoned the Poacher engine, although I still think there's potential there.

Anyway, here's what I'm running right now.

4 City
4 Tomb
9 Forest
4 Chrome Mox

4 Spawnwrithe
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
3 Isao
3 Briarhorn
3 Hystrodon
2 Garruk
2 Chameleon Colossus
4 Call of the Herd

4 Chalice
4 Trinisphere
3 SoFI
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 SoLS

SB:
4 Choke
4 Krosan Grip
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Loaming Shaman

Some points of interest:

No Wood Elves- I think Wood Elves is still a very strong choice if you want to run more cards with oGoG in their cost. However, I'm plaing a grand total of four, so the Elves were dropped for Isao.

Goyf in the SB- I fucking hate Goyf, and I refuse to play him maindeck simply because its less fun. Beating an opponent with SPAWNWRITHE is fun. Not Goyf.

2 Colossus- I really want two more in here, but I don't see where there's room... help?

Hystrodon- Someone mentioned this guy earlier and most people ignored it, but it really is a strong way to refill mid- to late-game, and Trample with Swords is sick.

Spectör

06-13-2008, 02:52 PM

Guys, I wrote a whole primer (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8068) about this topic, is it too bad or why is there no love for it? :(

Anyways, I do not think Spawnwrithe is any good in this deck, because you don't always have it on your first 7 and if you draw it afterwards it's a dead card most times. Also, almost every deck can handle a turn 1 2/2 for example with a 2/3 goyf.

The list I'm testing at the moment looks something like this:

// Lands
4 [EX] City of Traitors
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
10 [UNH] Forest

// Creatures
4 [AL] Elvish Spirit Guide
2 [BOK] Iwamori of the Open Fist
4 [MOR] Chameleon Colossus
3 [TS] Thelonite Hermit
3 [SHM] Hungry Spriggan
2 [VI] River Boa

// Spells
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
3 [DS] Sword of Fire and Ice
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [OD] Call of the Herd
3 [DS] Trinisphere
3 [LRW] Garruk Wildspeaker
3 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [DS] Trinisphere
SB: 3 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 4 [TS] Krosan Grip
SB: 4 [TE] Choke
SB: 3 [SOK] Pithing Needle

Trinisphere is way >>>> Root Maze for obvious reasons.
Also Hermit + Garruk is very good.
Currently I'm testing Hungry Spriggan as an aggresive "1-drop". If in gets to attack it's a 4/4 trample and that's nearly as good as a Sea Drake. Also I'm not running Goyf at the moment, because i don't feel any need for it, especially in MUs, where either player doesn't get any cards into the grave like other stompies for example. But i agree, it's very good in the Deck and you could cut the River Boas and Iwamori or something for it...

btw: ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh :)

iOWN

06-13-2008, 03:36 PM

How can disregard Spawnwrithe, but advocate Hungry Spriggan in its place? Hungry Spriggan is a 1/1, much easier to answer than Spawnwrithe (Mogg Fanatic and so on), and Spawnwrithe quickly surpasses it's power. After trampling through once, Spawnwrithe (and copy) combined swing for 4. Then 8, and so on.

Spectör

06-13-2008, 03:58 PM

Still, I'm only testing it, but I found a 4/4 attacker to be somehow attractive.

The problem about Spawnwrithe is, that it has to actually deal combat damage to a player and I think that's harder than it looks...

Roman Candle

06-13-2008, 04:00 PM

Spawnwrithe>>>>>>>Hungry Spriggan. Whenever I've dropped Spawnwrithe early, I've won. It's not a dead card late: it tramples, so it carries a Sword into the Red Zone like a champ.

Zork

06-14-2008, 10:37 PM

Why hasn't Krosan Tusker elicited more attention as a replacement for Wood Elves? Piggy's strong in the late game, fixes mana in the early game, and he's CA in green. Has anyone tested him?

Piggy hasn't been played because:

- He puts the land into your hand, not letting you cheat mana into play. Wood Elves on turn 1 gives you 4 mana at the untap of turn 2. Since the only reason people play chalice aggro is to use explosive accelerated mana, a card advantage engine isn't quite what we are looking for here (notice no browbeat in DS).

- He wont get into play often, meaning more often he will use a turn's worth of mana to cycle.

Valtrix

06-14-2008, 11:01 PM

I don't know if he's useful, but I think he could use some testing before he's completely dismissed. Sure, you can't cheat land into play, but you're not always going to have city of traitors anyway. He does give us some CA, which is very useful. However, is it worth a turns worth of mana? I don't know, but if you compare it to wood elves you get a 1/1 and cheat a forest in play or tusker gets you a basic forest and a random card. With garruk I think that we might be able to see him come into play reasonably.

That said, I really like the tech with dryad arbor and wood elves. I guess he'll get you two 1/1s and a forest if you want...Still not great, but somewhat better.

Phantom

06-17-2008, 01:57 AM

So I got down to some testing lately against 5 Color Thresh (the Hatfields nasty list) 4 Color Landstill (a dated-ish list by Tacosnape) Rg Goblins (classic but still the best splash IMO) and 4C Survival (Di's list). Here are the results and my thoughts:

G Stompy

vs 5 C Thresh
on the play
1-0 Chalice 1+2 and CoH
2-0 Chalice
3-0 CoHx2 + Jitte
4-0 Mull to Oblivion by Thresh
4-1 Goyf + Enforcer

on the draw
5-1 Spawn + Call + Jitte
6-1 Spawn + Jitte
7-1 Boa + Equip

vs 4C Landstill
1-0 First turn Spawn
2-0 Garruk
2-1 Deed
2-2 Still
2-3

on the draw
3-3 Garruk
Mull to 5
3-4
3-5

post board
on the play
Mull to 6
0-1
1-1
1-2
2-2 River Boa!
2-3

on the draw
3-3

VS GOBS
on the play
Mull to 6
0-1 Vial
1-1 Span + Jitte
2-1 SofI + Goyf
3-1 SofI + Jitte + Chalice @1,2
4-1 Swarm

on the draw
5-1 Goyf + equip x2
5-2 Vial
BOTH MULL
5-3 Vial + Lackey + SGC x2
6-3 Swarm of beasts
6-4 Swarm

post board
on the play
7-4 Garruk + Chalice @1,2 (Hail Storm)
8-4 Garruk Overrun

vs Survival
on the play
1-0 Chalice @2, Garruk + Overrun + SoFI
2-0 Spawn
2-1 Shriekmaw
3-1 Goyf, CoH Blitz
4-1 Goyf/Garruk Blitz

on the draw
4-2 SoTF
Mull to 6
4-3 SoTF
5-3 Colossus + Jitte = 16 damage

Not really too bad considering the deck and board are rough. Here's the list I was playing:

// Lands
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
4 [EX] City of Traitors
10 [RAV] Forest (1)

// Creatures
3 [LRW] Garruk Wildspeaker
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [AL] Elvish Spirit Guide
4 [SHM] Spawnwrithe
4 [MOR] Chameleon Colossus
2 [FNM] River Boa

// Spells
3 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
2 [DS] Sword of Fire and Ice
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
4 [TSB] Call of the Herd
2 [DS] Trinisphere
2 [TSP] Krosan Grip

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [DS] Trinisphere
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [SHM] Wheel of Sun and Moon
SB: 3 [TSB] Hail Storm
SB: 2 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 [TE] Choke

The creature base was incredibly solid. CoH and Garruk are nightmares for control (particularly Aggro-Control) and Goyf, while not as nuts as in other decks is still an auto include here. Chameleon Colossus was rarely insane, but always scary (I might think about dropping to 3). River Boa was good, but not great.

The 2 Trini, 2 Krosan Grip slots are still iffy. I was surprised at how crappy they were mainboard. Grip can stop SoTF and Deed, but only if the opponent doesn't see it coming (and they usually do). Trini barely figured into any win.

I don't see the need for crappy 1/1 forest fetching elves (so if I have the mana I NEED, they are shitty???) but Hystrodon and Briarhorn seem worth testing. If they don't impress I might just roll out Harmonizes and call it a day.

As for the board, Hail Storm and Choke were great. I still wanted Needles (for Survival and Deed), but I'm not sure if I can fit them in there.

Illissius

06-17-2008, 07:26 AM

Muchos gracias. If Grips were bad against this set of decks, then I think it's safe to say the card doesn't belong in the maindeck (or in very great numbers in the sideboard either). (Which makes sense: most decks play it to break up Countertop, which you don't give much of a shit about in the first place). Keep a couple in case of Moat, Humility, and friends, and I think that should be enough.

As for Trinisphere, that's nominally there against Storm combo which wasn't one of the decks you tested against, but as it's not a huge metagame presence, I suppose they should also be safe to cut. Were they at least useful for tempo against thresh?

Kuma

06-17-2008, 02:36 PM

I just hate maindecking Trinisphere in Chalice Aggro to begin with. It's so often useless and a terrible topdeck. It's better off in the sideboard.

After a little more testing, this deck needs Pithing Needle in the sideboard. With all the token creatures in the deck, we have to have an answer to EE at 0 and Pernicious Deed. Never mind that the card is just awesome to begin with.

I've warmed up to Tarmogoyf a little more. Your opponent will almost always do the work for you, and I haven't swung with a goyf smaller than 4/5 today.

River Boa is a house against so many decks. I've added him to my list, which is the same as the one I posted before except for -1 Iwamori, -1 SoFI, -1 Chameleon Colossus, +3 River Boa. I cut Loaming Shaman and a Krosan Grip for Pithing Needles in the sideboard. My metagame is low on graveyard dependent decks and high on blue, so keep that in mind.

Mental

06-17-2008, 03:05 PM

Phantom's latest list is really interesting and looks, and seems to test, strong. Personally I'm surprised by the strength of greens SB options...there are so many strong choices:
Pithing Needle
3Sphere
Hail Storm
Choke
KGrip
WoSaM
Crypt
Loaming Shaman

Of those, it seems like Needle and Choke should always be 4 ofs. 2 Grips is probably strong too, since they take out Deed, Moat, and Humility (the latter two are game over). In the 5 open slots, you seem to want either 3Sphere or WoSaM based on your meta, along with 2-3 Hail Storms to cement your goblins MU.

As much as I don't like 3Sphere MD, it seems like a necessary evil as it really helps both your Thresh and Combo MU. The former is already strong but the latter seems to be awful.

idraleo

06-17-2008, 06:28 PM

3sphere stops Dredge as well if you know that...

Willoe

06-17-2008, 07:36 PM

3sphere stops Dredge as well if you know that...

False. They draw maximum hand size, then discard one at a turn. Even though it's going slow, it's threatening. They dredge into narcos, more dredgers, Ichorids and Bridges. With Ichorids, black creatures in the yard and bridges, you've lost if you have no answers. A 3/1 followed by a permanent 2/2 a turn is often hard to handle. And worst of all, they don't play a spell at all thus making 3sphere a dead card and a dead mana investment.

3sphere does not stop dredge decks at all...

Mental

06-17-2008, 07:38 PM

False. They draw maximum hand size, then discard one at a turn. Even though it's going slow, it's threatening. They dredge into narcos, more dredgers, Ichorids and Bridges. With Ichorids, black creatures in the yard and bridges, you've lost if you have no answers. A 3/1 followed by a permanent 2/2 a turn is often hard to handle. And worst of all, they don't play a spell at all thus making 3sphere a dead card and a dead mana investment.

3sphere does not stop dredge decks at all...

It seems like it'd improve the MU, though, because you'd slow them down enough to race them.

Roman Candle

06-17-2008, 07:39 PM

That's assuming that you're on the play. If you lose the die roll, they can drop a dredge enabler turn1 and go just as fast as usual, albeit without Dread Return or Therapy.

Mental

06-17-2008, 07:44 PM

That's assuming that you're on the play. If you lose the die roll, they can drop a dredge enabler turn1 and go just as fast as usual, albeit without Dread Return or Therapy.

Yup, which is why it would only improve the MU. I'm not claiming it's great or anything.

Phantom

06-20-2008, 12:03 PM

So here's what I've been thinking after mulling over my testing: Let's forget about the storm combo matchup. Storm combo is a small amount of any normal meta, and it's forcing us to run a crappy card maindeck (Trini) and sideboard. And even after all that I would imagine the matchup is unfavorable, so let's not pollute the maindeck with narrow cards in an attempt to turn a 25% matchup into a 40% matchup when the deck makes up less than 10% of most metas.

In addition, I can feel Ichoroid and Aggro Loam on the rise, and those are decks we can actually fight. Also, I think we should focus on the control matchup (particularly Landstill) as we already have some strong tolls against them. I think if we devote some remaining slots to wacking control, we might be the first Stompy varient with an even matchup against 'Still.

Once again here's my test list:

// Lands
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
4 [EX] City of Traitors
10 [RAV] Forest (1)

// Creatures
3 [LRW] Garruk Wildspeaker
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [AL] Elvish Spirit Guide
4 [SHM] Spawnwrithe
4 [MOR] Chameleon Colossus
2 [FNM] River Boa

// Spells
3 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
2 [DS] Sword of Fire and Ice
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
4 [TSB] Call of the Herd
2 [DS] Trinisphere
2 [TSP] Krosan Grip

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [DS] Trinisphere
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [SHM] Wheel of Sun and Moon
SB: 3 [TSB] Hail Storm
SB: 2 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 [TE] Choke

From the main we can drop:
-2 Trini
-2 River Boa
-2 Krosan Grip
-1 Chameleon Colossus

My question is, what can we fill those spots with that will strike fear in the hearts of control, while not being too narrow? My initial thought was Eternal Witness and Troll Ascetic. Neither are great casting costs for us (and would make us add another forest or at least that forestcycler) but I think it's a decent start. Any other ideas?

nitewolf9

06-20-2008, 12:19 PM

Slag

06-20-2008, 12:28 PM

Purely against removal, things like elephant guide, regrowth or its clones, or dredge critters will help you extend your threat base. Plus, you would get major awesome points if you ran verdant succession.
Loaming shaman is nice in that it neuters monastery for a few turns, but would probably hamper your goyfs in the probcess.

Swing4Five

06-20-2008, 12:47 PM

Have you considered something like harmonize? It seems that you could fight control by drawing too many threats for them to handle.

Edit: Or ankh of mishra. You don't run any fetch lands and I think you could abuse the card against most decks. Landstill does not like to see that card at all.

Harmonize has been in a couple of people's lists, I think the double green and lowering your threat density are the biggest reasons it hasn't caught on.

I have been looking for a shell to abuse Ankkh... although I don't know if this is the one to abuse it the best it might be worth a bit of testing.

Purely against removal, things like elephant guide, regrowth or its clones, or dredge critters will help you extend your threat base. Plus, you would get major awesome points if you ran verdant succession.

These are just horrible ideas, I'm sorry, but the first two of those cards are LOWERING your threat base and there isn't any dredge creature worth the effort.

Loaming shaman is nice in that it neuters monastery for a few turns, but would probably hamper your goyfs in the probcess.

Loaming Shaman has been mentioned, and could be worth it in a Ichorid heavy meta.

Phantom, some ideas:
- The above mentioned Ankh
- Gigapede, despite having disynergy with the equipment.

Here's a bunch of creatures, most of which are a stretch, I know, trying to spark ideas here.
2G
- Caller of the Claw
- Citanul Woodreaders
- Imperious Perfect
- Nullmage Advocate
- Phantom Nantuko
- Viridian Shaman

3G
- Centaur Chieftain
- Elven Warhounds
- Mongrel Pack

Kuma

06-20-2008, 12:57 PM

Cut River Boa to improve the Landstill matchup? I'm not very experienced at playing against Landstill, because only one guy in my metagame plays it and he shows up irregularly, but an unblockable equipment carrying creature that can survive EE and Pernicious Deed through regeneration seems very good against Landstill. Especially when it can be cast turn one a large portion of the time. Pithing Needles are huge vs. board sweepers like EE and Deed, especially with all the tokens this deck creates. I think the best place to start improving the Landstill matchup is four Needles in the board. Other possibilities are more SoFI, Hystrodon, Harmonize, Gutteral Response, City of Solitude, and Kitchen Finks. Is Trinisphere good in the Landstill matchup?

I've played one match vs Aggro Loam with this, and the best thing you can do is put them on a fast clock. Garruk and Briarhorn are great at getting around Devestating Dreams, and Loaming Shaman is good at stopping graveyard tricks. Like with Dragon Stompy, Chalice for two is huge here as it stops DD, Burning Wish, LftL and more. Pro red from SoFI seems good vs Countryside Crusher.

As for Ichorid, if it's big enough in your meta, run some Loaming Shaman maindeck, I guess. Briarhorn is good at killing Bridges too. I'm not very experienced in this matchup, because no one plays Ichorid in my metagame.

To summarize: Keep Boa, more SoFI, Briarhorn, 4 Needle in board.

Is Hail Storm really necessary for the Goblin MU? I've only played Goblins once and I'm not sure.

Off topic, but isn't Dragon Stompy about 50/50 with Landstill? I mean, if you resolve a Moon, you win vs the three and four color lists, and your threats are pretty mana intensive for Deed and EE. I'm pretty sure whether or not Landstill runs Hydroblasts in the board has a lot to do with it.

Mental

06-20-2008, 01:10 PM

Yeah, Needle really is how you're going to beat Landstill. That and KGrip.

In the 5 open slots, I can see Troll Ascetic. Landstill has a lot of trouble dealing with it, since it can regenerate through Deed and can't be hit by spot removal. It's even better when carrying a Jitte/SoFI.
So probably that + a forestcycler.

Nihil Credo

06-20-2008, 01:44 PM

Considering that the manabase is pretty much identical to that of Dragon Stompy (-Song +Garruk) I recommend against any 1GG guys - or at least, evaluate them as if they cost "2GG, pay 1 life", which is what you'll end up paying most of the time.

For the 2G slot, I really don't see anything better than going back to Imperious Perfect. It "only" pumps Elvish Spirit Guide and Chameleon Colossus, true, but the army-creating ability is pretty good to make the deck more consistent, and exactly the sort of thing you want against control.

At 2GG or 3G, well, there are a lot more options. I've liked Briarhorn in the few games I've played, and then there's the classic Phantom Centaur. Timbermare looks interesting as a 1-of or 2-of, to swing damage races.

nitewolf9

06-20-2008, 02:15 PM

Stonewood invocation would also be neat. I really wana use that card somehow in legacy.

Slag

06-20-2008, 02:29 PM

These are just horrible ideas, I'm sorry, but the first two of those cards are LOWERING your threat base and there isn't any dredge creature worth the effort.

Considering the spaces opened up were from trinisphere and krosan grip, I'm confident that there weren't any threats cut. Both elephant guide and regrowth give you creatures available after a deed or wrath.

Against landstill and threshold, Primal Order will often hit for 4-5 a turn, and triggers for your opponent first.

Willoe

06-20-2008, 02:37 PM

Stonewood Invocation? You might as well play a Timbermare to get the exact same effect, seriously.

3G for 5 and card disadvantage blows. You don't want that as it does not win you the game directly. Seething Song is an excellent example to show how explosiveness can be card disadvantage-worthy. But Invocation isn't explosive. At least, play a dude instead, it can stay in play as well as being usually as big as a goyf. Plus that 1 extra power which goyfs hate, AFAIK.

For the 2G slot, have you tried something like Gloomwidow or eventually Leery Fogbeast? Spellbane Centaur could also be a possibilitiy, even though blue spells often not target, just counter...

EDIT: Loaming Shaman is also great against Loam, thresh etc. Giving a minor advantage as well as timewalking Ichorid in certain situations plus leaving an okay dude for 2g sounds like a fair deal to me.

Zork

06-20-2008, 02:43 PM

The problem with regrowth is that Stompy decks don't want to use mana unless it is actively doing something. Regrowth will often be a 2 turn process in a deck that operates on explosiveness.

Elephant guide opens you up to 2 for 1s on removal.

I think if you want to go Phantom's route that those 4 slots should be metagame dependant. Loaming Shaman, Briarhorn (though I feel he should be in the deck regardless), or River Boa.

Illissius

06-20-2008, 02:55 PM

Cards which could be good against control: Imperious Perfect, Masked Admirers, Blastoderm, Skyshroud Poacher, Genesis, Hystrodon, Gigapede, Centaur Glade, Sylvan Library, Sword of Light and Shadow

Note that this isn't a list of cards which are necessarily good, in general or in this deck; it's a list of cards which, if they are good against anything at all, are likely to be good against control.

For now I continue to favor Loaming Shaman for the extra slots, even with Tarmogoyf also in the deck. You choose which cards to shuffle back, so you're never in a position where it's counterproductive. The mana cost is perfect, he's a solid beater at worst, helps significantly against opposing Goyfs, can randomly be rather annoying for your opponent (Mongoose, Tombstalker, Intuition decks, etc.), can randomly be game breaking against certain decks, and frees up considerable room in your sideboard for everything else you want to include there.

EDIT - So for now, my list looks like this:

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Spawnwrithe
4 Call of the Herd
4 Loaming Shaman
4 Briarhorn
4 Chameleon Colossus
3 Garruk Wildspeaker
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Chrome Mox
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
10 Forest
SB: 4 Choke
SB: 4 Pithing Needle
SB: 3 Hail Storm
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 2 Trinisphere / Tormod's Crypt

where I'm considering cutting a Colossus and maybe something else for a pair of Swords, or something.

Sims

06-20-2008, 07:16 PM

Cards which could be good against control: Imperious Perfect, Masked Admirers, Blastoderm, Skyshroud Poacher, Genesis, Hystrodon, Gigapede, Centaur Glade, Sylvan Library, Sword of Light and Shadow

I'd like to add this guy to that list:
http://www.cardshark.com/images_magic/bok/isao_enlightened_bushi.jpg

Cause he fits our curve correctly, can't be countered, regenerates, and is a 4/3 in combat. Sure, ass of 1 sucks, but you'll never know in combat or once he's carrying a sword.

Sanguine Voyeur

06-20-2008, 07:20 PM

I don't think that the toughness of one is too big a factor. The only thing that would kill an x/1 but not an x/3 is Mogg Fanatic. Everything else only cares about converted mana cost if it cares at all.

Nihil Credo

06-20-2008, 07:30 PM

Sims

06-20-2008, 08:07 PM

Isao looks terrible to me. A two-power Stompy creature should have an awesome secondary ability (Spirit Guides, Magus, Cloud of Faeries), but all Isao has are a few clauses that make it slightly tougher to kill.

If he's just a 2 power creature and isn't using the other abilities, then you're winning already. He's a regenerating threat through Deeds and EE's that Landstill cannot counter, can regenerate though Monastary swings, will eat Factories, and depending on the state of the game will eat Goyfs aswell. He's not a game breaker, but he gives your opponent an obstacle that is much harder to answer than the others save the untargetable critters. As a supplement to the equipment and creature base you're running, he's pretty solid, and is within the "ease of casting" range. I don't think testing out 2 or maybe 3 copies is that horrible an idea and may actually prove beneficial.

He's not the second coming and may very well suck, but he's worth a shot.

insertnamehere

06-20-2008, 09:02 PM

Spawnwrithe is F'in amazing

FoolofaTook

06-20-2008, 11:13 PM

If you're going to run all the equipment I'd look at Thornweald Archers also. They kill anything they block and they block anything that does not have Fear or Shadow. They come down fast and with a Jitte they are nasty.

Spectör

06-21-2008, 10:00 AM

If you were up to playing Thornweald Archer, I think that River Boa is just plain better as a creature for 1G, because it is that good in our bad MUs.

I Don't like the idea of cutting 3-Sphere. It's not only effective in the Storm Combo matchup but also incredibly good angainst NQG, Goyf Sligh and B/x Disruption. Even against Landstill it's not too bad, because it can be like some kind of Rule of Law.

On Isao: I always considered him as a possible creature in the 2G-slot but never found room for him. CorruptedAngel already mentioned why he's good. And being able to regenerate Colossus is so funny. :P

crazyroundman

06-21-2008, 10:26 AM

On Isao: I always considered him as a possible creature in the 2G-slot but never found room for him. CorruptedAngel already mentioned why he's good. And being able to regenerate Colossus is so funny. :P

Y'know, I'd never read that line of text. That's an amazing ability.

Illissius

06-21-2008, 12:12 PM

The biggest problem with Isao is that while he's somewhat hard to deal with, he's also not very necessary to deal with, because he only beats for two, and will kill them in ten turns. In ten turns, even if your control-playing opponent somehow manages not to find a Swords or Wrath or anything, they can play a huge expensive spell and just run you over.

Willoe

06-21-2008, 01:50 PM

I run almost the exact same list as Illisius, except that I've -1 Jitte, -1 Briarhorn + SoFaI. I think it's better due to the fact that Swords does something when equipped first. Jitte is more like a creature without haste for 4 that does three awesome things. SoFaI is a hasted dude with a shock effect, a cantrips and a grizzly bear for two. I think it's better, but Jitte's still goddamn awesome, so let's keep two maindecked.

Has anyone tested Timbermare?

FoolofaTook

06-21-2008, 02:25 PM

If you were up to playing Thornweald Archer, I think that River Boa is just plain better as a creature for 1G, because it is that good in our bad MUs.

River Boa can't stand down a Tombstalker, Hyppie Spec or Mystic Enforcer. There are probably other flyers that also are a factor but those are the ones I'd be worried about.

The Islandwalk is great but Thornweald Archer has Deathwalk as near as I can tell. Nine times out of ten I'd rather have the standoff ability rather than two points of damage a turn because what is getting stood off is usually a lot more than that. The other time I'd probably happily march him in to kill something much bigger at that point in the game.

Spectör

06-21-2008, 05:32 PM

Well, I think I got your point FoolofaTook and also I just noticed how good the Archer is in the AggroLoam matchup which is very hard most of the time, because of their big guys and mana denial.

Watcher487

06-21-2008, 07:45 PM

Well, I think I got your point FoolofaTook and also I just noticed how good the Archer is in the AggroLoam matchup which is very hard most of the time, because of their big guys and mana denial.

It's good that Archer gives you a decent blocker but River Boa / Isao regenerate through thier removal. I think the more important thing to do in this match-up is to make sure you get your disruption (Trini/CotV @ 2) on-line before they get thier disruption (DD) and mana excelleration on-line. Then you can drop the bombs.

Phantom

06-21-2008, 08:38 PM

So, I'd like to apologize for badmouthing Briarhorn. I'm rarely this wrong about a card, and it deserves a spot. I played a bunch of games online, and only lost one match (out of 7) and it was to Stifle-Naught (No Chalice, No Grip bleh). Raped Affinity twice, Elves, Eva Green, the Rock, Survival, and even 2-0'd TES (holy crap I'm not expecting to ever do that again). Here's the current list I'm testing:

// Lands
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
4 [EX] City of Traitors
10 [RAV] Forest (1)

// Creatures
3 [LRW] Garruk Wildspeaker
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [AL] Elvish Spirit Guide
4 [SHM] Spawnwrithe
3 [MOR] Chameleon Colossus
3 [DIS] Loaming Shaman
3 [LRW] Briarhorn

// Spells
3 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
4 [TSB] Call of the Herd
3 [PLC] Harmonize

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [TSB] Hail Storm
SB: 4 [TE] Choke
SB: 4 [10E] Pithing Needle
SB: 1 [DIS] Loaming Shaman

Thoughts:
- 3 Colossus is the right call.

- Loaming Shaman was crappy all day, but is saving me sideboard slots, so it might still be maindeckable. I'm going to toy with that slot though.

- Speaking of, the board is packed. I'd like to be able to cut Grip, but I just can't thanks to Stifle-Naught, Moat, other randomness.

- Harmonize was surprisingly solid, and helped me dig for threats and sideboarded cards (always a nice bonus). 3 is the right number.

- Not sure exactly what the equipment count should be. I might tinker with a single sword.

Kuma

06-21-2008, 08:57 PM

That's my current list except for -3 Harmonize, -3 Loaming Shaman +3 SoFI, +3 River Boa, and -1 Loaming Shaman +1 Hail Storm in the board. Harmonize seems like it could be good; I'll definitely have to test it. I think we're getting close to a final list here. Phantom, is there any specific reason you aren't running River Boa and SoFI? I ask to aid in my own decision making with the final two slots.

Illissius

06-21-2008, 10:56 PM

Registration for an online tournament at Salvation (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=118121) closes tomorrow, if anyone feels like giving the deck a run there.

idraleo

06-22-2008, 12:31 AM

Nixios

06-23-2008, 09:37 AM

River Boa can't stand down a Tombstalker, Hyppie Spec or Mystic Enforcer. There are probably other flyers that also are a factor but those are the ones I'd be worried about.

The Islandwalk is great but Thornweald Archer has Deathwalk as near as I can tell. Nine times out of ten I'd rather have the standoff ability rather than two points of damage a turn because what is getting stood off is usually a lot more than that. The other time I'd probably happily march him in to kill something much bigger at that point in the game.

It's good that Archer gives you a decent blocker but River Boa / Isao regenerate through thier removal. I think the more important thing to do in this match-up is to make sure you get your disruption (Trini/CotV @ 2) on-line before they get thier disruption (DD) and mana excelleration on-line. Then you can drop the bombs.

Wirewood symbiote could help with saving the archer from the removal spells while untapping something else.

Spectör

06-23-2008, 10:48 AM

Wirewood symbiote could help with saving the archer from the removal spells while untapping something else.

A cc1, 1/1, with an ability thast isn't really needed in a Chalice-Tomb Aggro?
No way.

Mental

06-23-2008, 07:35 PM

SoFI is one of the worst card to play in this deck, it is simoultaneously slow and simply overcosted if you did drop+equip. Assuming that you want cast a SoFI on turn 3, and if u did this your remaining hand is bad, Harmonize fits better, giving to you 3 new cards in 1 turn instead of 3 and bypassing combat phase.

Why do you say that? SoFI can be dropped on turn 2 and equipped by 3, plenty fast enough for the format. However, I agree that Harmonize is probably better.

idraleo

06-23-2008, 10:12 PM

Kuma

06-23-2008, 11:04 PM

I'm rarely wishing that SoFI was another threat when I draw it. Oh, and Harmonize is amazing.

I still wish we could squeeze River Boa in here somehow. Thornweald Archer seems like it could be decent too, combining with Briarhorn to make a nice pseudo-removal package.

Mental

06-24-2008, 01:10 AM

Probably SoFI was an auto include since Briarhorn was outside of the deck, but as far as playtests goes it seems that Briarhon+Harmonize fits the deck better...

@Mental: SoFI on turn 2 and equip on turn 3? It is possible only if you did a creature on turn 1, or if you cast a creature on turn 4 and then equip, attacking on turn 5. It means that probably was better to do creature on turn 3, attack, turn 4 SoFi+ equip and then attack.

Yeah, that should happen often. Turn 1, Forest + Mox, Goyf. Turn 2, Forest, SoFI. Turn 3, equip.

Seriously, it happens quite often. You can also do it with a City + ESG and take some mana burn.

Kuma

06-26-2008, 12:14 PM

I'm going to take this to my local Legacy Tournament tomorrow. The meta is pretty wide open, and on any given day any deck in Legacy can show up, as well as a lot of good homebrew lists. Top four last time was It's the Fear, Ugr Thresh, MBA, and Death and Taxes.

I'll let you know my thoughts on how the deck holds up against good competition.

Phantom

06-27-2008, 05:20 PM

So I've been playing the deck some more, and here are some thoughts:

- I've been feeling that 3 Jittes + 3 Briars isn't quite enough pump. I'd really like to squeeze in 2 SoFI's to go along with it. The deck is just too full of 2 and 3 powered creatures.

- I'm a tad dissapointed in the decks lack of interaction with the opponent. Every other color of Stopy plays at least one playset of cards beyond Chalice that can disrupt the opponents gameplan (FoW, Blood Moon, Moat, Shriekmaw, ORing). Often we can just go about our gameplan and win, but when the opponent drops something troublesome (Moat, Abyss, big flyer) we are in a lot of trouble, even post board. Loaming Shaman gives us a bit of that, but in a very narrow capacity. I think I'm going to tinker with Stomphowler in the Collossus spot and see if that helps or hurts.

- Harmonize is perfect as we can really kind of screw ourselves to hit double green and cast it (through Mox, ESG, or burying City) since it will probably get us more mana sources.

There's an interesting card in the new expansion that's 2G instant (I think) to turn a creature into a 1/1 and draw a card. Might be worth looking at.

Zork

06-27-2008, 06:28 PM

I have also been testing this deck (with various gameplans) against a variety of decks, and I have come to a conclusion that I'd like someone to back me up on:

There is no reason to play this deck over other stompy decks.

Yes, we have efficient beaters in the curve and some nice mana acceleration, but this deck doesn't do anything else to stop the opponent. If only green had some disruptive creatures or Root Maze were one sided (a one-sided root maze for G2, for instance), then maybe this deck would be worth it, but for now I can't see it being more than a fun deck.

EDIT: Fixed a mistake.

Phantom

06-27-2008, 06:52 PM

You're not wrong, but really there is no reason, at least in my most metas, to run any Stompy but Dragon (better Thresh, Landstill, and combo matchups in general). That being said that should be no discouragement to those working on the decks, since you never know when a card will come along or the meta will shift and change the dynamic. Plus, it's always good to know what kind of cards and strategies go well in a Chalice Aggro shell.

Nihil Credo

06-27-2008, 08:14 PM

I think the deck's potential lies in the White Landstill and general aggro matchups. The former gives fits to Dragon Stompy because it can often ignore Blood Moon and comfortably nullify the red zone; the latter because DS hates, hates, hates ground stalls, and Pit Dragon dies to both Bolts and black removal.

Garruk, CotH and Harmonize give Elf Stompy the ability to not run out of gas and keep churning out threats after each one is killed or traded with, whereas Dragon Stompy lives for Hellbent and Faerie Stompy has only Mulldrifter. Is this enough to compensate for the lack of evasion and bombs like Force of Will or Blood Moon? I don't know, but we're here to find out.

Kuma

06-28-2008, 11:29 AM

So, here's the list I took to my local tournament yesterday:

10x Forest
4x Ancient Tomb
4x City of Traitors

4x Elvish Spirit Guide
3x Garruk Wildspeaker
4x Chrome Mox

4x Tarmogoyf
4x Spawnwrithe
4x Call of the Herd
3x Briarhorn
3x Chameleon Colossus

4x Chalice of the Void
3x Sword of Fire and Ice
3x Umezawa's Jitte
3x Harmonize

Sideboard:
4x Hail Storm
4x Choke
4x Pithing Needle
3x Krosan Grip

I went 3-2 and finished 8th, losing to It's the Fear in the first round of the playoffs. My three wins were Aggro Loam, White Weenie, and Triton's Minions. My two losses were UW Aggro/Control and It's the Fear (I lost to ITF twice.)

Sword of Fire and Ice was amazing. I wouldn't have beat Aggro Loam and White Weenie without it.

This deck absolutely folds to board control. I sided in ten cards vs ITF, and I still got stomped, losing both matches 0-2. EE and Deed are huge against this deck due to the large number of token generators we have. I honestly don't think that this deck is capable of beating ITF/VoroshStill/Landstill/Rock/Insert board control deck here. Vedalken Shackles just kills this deck pre-board, as we have no answer to it. Another potential problem is Tarmogoyf, as most decks that run him have cantrips/card draw to find their copies and can just counter/StP ours. A 3/4 goyf is bigger than every creature in this deck except Colossus, and this was a problem.

The only way we're going to have any kind of matchup against board control is to run some sort of artifact/enchantment removal in the maindeck. Indrik Stomphowler could fill this role, as could Krosan Grip. Still, improving that matchup sort of seems like a lost cause. This deck is very strong against most aggro strategies, including aggro/control, and that is probably the best reason to play this.

I think we should stop using "this deck" and refer to it as Elemental Stompy, since that is the most prevalent creature type in the deck.

Sanguine Voyeur

06-28-2008, 11:36 AM

In my brief fling with this deck, I found Genesis to help greatly against problematic decks with removal and oppressive card advantage. Recurring a Tarmogoyf every turn helped post Deed and Wrath.

Illissius

06-28-2008, 11:41 AM

I think we should stop using "this deck" and refer to it as Elemental Stompy, since that is the most prevalent creature type in the deck.

Faeries aren't the most common creature type in Faerie Stompy, nor Dragons in Dragon Stompy, and Demon Stompy very often doesn't even have any.

But Green doesn't seem to have any iconic creature type which really "feels" right. Jungle Stompy and Elephant Stompy are the only two I can think of which aren't completely horrible. I mean, what else? Wurm Stompy? Beast Stompy? Lhurgoyf Stompy? Centaur Stompy?

Maybe we should just go the classic Legacy route of confusing people, and call it just Stompy, or Senor Stompy, or 18-land Stompy.

Kuma

06-28-2008, 11:49 AM

In my brief fling with this deck, I found Genesis to help greatly against problematic decks with removal and oppressive card advantage. Recurring a Tarmogoyf every turn helped post Deed and Wrath.

I think you may be on to something...

Faeries aren't the most common creature type in Faerie Stompy, nor Dragons in Dragon Stompy, and Demon Stompy very often doesn't even have any.

But Green doesn't seem to have any iconic creature type which really "feels" right. Jungle Stompy and Elephant Stompy are the only two I can think of which aren't completely horrible. I mean, what else? Wurm Stompy? Beast Stompy? Lhurgoyf Stompy? Centaur Stompy?

Maybe we should just go the classic Legacy route of confusing people, and call it just Stompy, or Senor Stompy, or 18-land Stompy.

Jungle Stompy has a nice ring to it, and was what I originally called the deck, but it bucks the trend of naming the decks after creature types. Elephant Stompy works too, but if we're going to go that route, I'd rather just do Elemental Stompy for the simple fact that they are the most prevelant and (argueably) the most iconic creature type in the deck.

I prefer Elemental and Jungle in that order.

EDIT: Screw it, the more I think about it, the more I like Lhurgoyf Stompy. I mean, Tarmogoyf is only the best creature in Legacy.

Illissius

06-28-2008, 12:03 PM

I would never guess from "Elemental Stompy" that the deck is green. The prevalence of the creature type in the deck has fuck all to do with it; what matters is how iconic it is for the color, and how cool the resulting name sounds.

Therefore: Squirrel Stompy!

Nihil Credo

06-28-2008, 12:38 PM

I'm voting for Elephant Stompy. There is one non-Changeling Elephant in the deck, just like Dragon Stompy has one Dragon and Faerie Stompy has one Faerie (and Demon Stompy often has Grinning Demon).

Lhurgoyf is witty, but a pain to type and speak. Elemental and Beast aren't green iconics (neither is Lhurgoyf, now that I think about it). Elf and Squirrel don't mesh well with "Stompy"

Zork

06-28-2008, 01:05 PM

Or, instead of Lhurgoyf Stompy, we just call it Goyf Stompy.

Illissius

06-28-2008, 01:11 PM

Or, instead of Lhurgoyf Stompy, we just call it Goyf Stompy.

I'm vetoing this idea.

And while I agree that Elf Stompy sounds stupid, I also think Squirrel Stompy sounds awesome. Shrug.

(So I'm at 1. Squirrel Stompy, 2. Elephant Stompy.)

Mental

06-28-2008, 01:24 PM

Elephant Stompy all the way.

Kuma

06-28-2008, 01:50 PM

Come on. "Squirrel Stompy?" I could buy it if there was even a single squirrel in the deck. And don't say Chameleon Colossus. Changlings ruin everything.

I'm not a big fan of ironic names either. If it ends this, I vote Elephant Stompy.

Valtrix

06-28-2008, 02:11 PM

I like Garruk Stompy, just because he's cool. After that, I'd go for Elephant stompy, just to keep with the creature namesakes.

Mordenkaynen

06-28-2008, 02:15 PM

He-he or Wooden Stompy. Just because Pinokio is a wooden child :laugh:

tsabo_tavoc

06-29-2008, 01:05 PM

I like Elephant Stompy:laugh:

Wicker-bough Elder :3: :g:
Creature - Treefolk Shaman
Wicker-Bough Elder comes into play with a -1/-1 counter on it.
:g: , Remove a -1/-1 counter from Wicker-bough Elder : Destroy target artifact or enchantment.
4/4

The elder seems to be designed for Elephant Stompy: It comes into play a turn earlier than Indrik Stomphowler, and doesn't destroy your own artifact which happens to the Stomphowler nearly half of the time!

to Kuma: How does Harmonize work for you? Is it worth the inclusion with SoFI?

Jaiminho

06-29-2008, 01:46 PM

Elephant Stompy is the best deck name ever.

Illissius

06-29-2008, 06:39 PM

I think we're agreed, then.

insertnamehere

06-29-2008, 07:41 PM

Elephant Stompy is the best deck name ever.

It justs sounds right.

Jaiminho

06-29-2008, 07:57 PM

It justs sounds right.

I wish I was called Elephant Stompy. Damn, so awsome.

Hopo

06-30-2008, 04:30 AM

No votes for Green Stompy??

How has Spawnwrithe been like? I'm thinking of approaching the deck with something like this:

4 ESG
4 Chameleon Colossus
4 Spawnwrithe
3 Garruk
4 Might of Oaks/Stonewood Invocation

Plus the regular stompy disruption/equipment package with Plow Unders.

I see huge potential in Spawnwrithe, but it is easily hated with all the relevant creature removal in format or fast 2/3 goyf. First turn Spawnwrithe with second turn Might of Oaks/Invocation seems massive, though, and the latter also saves the monsters from most removal.

No testing done yet so it might just suck, but I'm really into this aggro build and it could fit quite well for my local meta.

tsabo_tavoc

06-30-2008, 04:43 AM

I see huge potential in Spawnwrithe, but it is easily hated with all the relevant creature removal in format or fast 2/3 goyf. First turn Spawnwrithe with second turn Might of Oaks/Invocation seems massive, though, and the latter also saves the monsters from most removal.

Ja, Spawnwrithe is the card that could make Elephant Stompy competitive, and now you must know why we opt for Briarhorn.

Hopo

06-30-2008, 05:22 AM

Ja, Spawnwrithe is the card that could make Elephant Stompy competitive, and now you must know why we opt for Briarhorn.

Totally forgot about the Briarhorn. That is sweet indeed. Might of oaks is more brutal, though and I try to make a few copies work out.

Tarmogoyfs seems like an auto-include, but it clashes with the best chalice setting, two. I'm propably not willing to play 2cc cards besides jitte as with spirit guides, chalice for 2 is most likely going to happen on turns 1 or 2.

HAve you already tried Gathan Raiders here?

Spectör

06-30-2008, 05:47 AM

HAve you already tried Gathan Raiders here?
No. Why should we? It would be the only card in the deck opting for hellbent and that's rather counterproductive with Harmonize and SoFaI. It doesn't even produce green mana when imprinted in a mox...

Here's my list as I'm testing it now:

// Lands
4 [EX] City of Traitors
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
10 [UNH] Forest

// Creatures
4 [AL] Elvish Spirit Guide
3 [MOR] Chameleon Colossus
4 [SHM] Spawnwrithe
3 [FS] Tarmogoyf
3 [LRW] Briarhorn

// Spells
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
2 [DS] Sword of Fire and Ice
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [OD] Call of the Herd
3 [DS] Trinisphere
3 [LRW] Garruk Wildspeaker
3 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
2 [PC] Harmonize

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [DS] Trinisphere
SB: 3 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 4 [TS] Krosan Grip
SB: 4 [TE] Choke
SB: 3 [SOK] Pithing Needle

I don't think I'll ever cut Trinisphere from the mainboard. It's so good against everything relying on cheap threats like Goyf Sligh, B/x, and NQG and it's always at least a Rule of Law.
I have to admit that Spawnwrithe is indeed too good not to play it and I'm a fool ;)
Briarhorn has also done very well for me, and is definitely bette then any Might of Oaks-shenenigans, because it brings a 3/3 body with it.

For the name thing: I'll just go on calling this DBFA-Stompy =D

tsabo_tavoc

06-30-2008, 06:09 AM

I don't think I'll ever cut Trinisphere from the mainboard. It's so good against everything relying on cheap threats like Goyf Sligh, B/x, and NQG and it's always at least a Rule of Law.

The issue about 3sphere is its poor interaction with Chrome Mox. The same argument applies to SoFI and I like the 2/2 split with Harmonize.

Besides, I would like to try 4*Garruk: One can hardly find one in hand as redundancy and it can Grandeur on a Mox. I could see it at least replace a CotH.

Kuma

06-30-2008, 10:59 AM

Might of Oaks and Stonewood Invocation are bad. When you're surprise blocking a 4/5 'goyf, does it usually matter whether you're a 6/6 or a 10/10? Briarhorn sticks around to beat the opponent, while Might of Oaks sits in the graveyard and requires you to already have a creature to be good. Same deal with Stonewood Invocation.

Tarmogoyf is amazing, even in Elephant Stompy where we don't make much use of the graveyard. Who cares if it clashes with the odd Chalice at two if it's nuts every other time. Don't run less than four.

Gathan Raiders doesn't work so well with Harmonize and SoFI, and like Spector said, it doesn't make green mana on a Chrome Mox. I almost never get Hellbent with this deck, making Gathan Raiders undesirable.

Trinisphere is a sideboard card unless your metagame is made up of Thresh, Storm Combo, Dreadstill, Affinity, and Enchantress. Otherwise, it's usually only good turn one on the play. Topdecking a Trinisphere is almost always bad.

I think -1 CotH, +1 Garruk could be good. I've toyed with the idea of four Garruk before.

Illissius

06-30-2008, 02:31 PM

I think I'd rather go -1 Colossus (if you have 4) or -1 "open slot" for +1 Garruk in that case. CotH is one of your best cards, there's no reason to cut one of your best cards for more of another of your best cards when you can cut from a more arguable slot instead.

Is there a particular reason why I see everyone running only 3 Briarhorn?

Kuma

06-30-2008, 02:40 PM

In my experience, multiple copies of CotH are often redundant due to not having enough mana to take full advantage of them. That's why cutting one seems fine. As for Briarhorn, I dunno, I never really thought about what to cut for a fourth one. There's a guy I don't mind showing up in multiples.

That new Treefolk that tsabo_tavoc suggested a few posts back looks like it could really help with all the Deeds, Shackles, etc. that give Elephant Stompy fits. I could definitely see running 2-3 in the maindeck depending on your meta.

to Kuma: How does Harmonize work for you? Is it worth the inclusion with SoFI?

I'm kind of on the fence about Harmonize right now. Drawing extra cards vs. board control isn't very good if you don't have something to draw into that deals with their problem permanents.

SoFI is amazing and shouldn't be cut. It wins so many games, and I rarely wish it was a creature when I draw it.

insertnamehere

06-30-2008, 07:10 PM

Any suggestions for replacements for Tarmogoyf? Also, I was looking to find spots for Troll Ascetic and Ohran Viper, and suggestions for that?

Swing4Five

06-30-2008, 11:28 PM

1:g::g: is a horrible casting cost for this deck, we've already lamented the inability to play these two dudes.

Watcher487

06-30-2008, 11:48 PM

Is there a particular reason why I see everyone running only 3 Briarhorn?

I personally run 3 for 2 main reasons.
1. I surprise blocks Goyf and usually survives
2. I run 2 Sword of Light and Shadow

I'm actually debating about dropping Jitte in favor or more Swords (I currently run 2 of each Jitte, SoLaS and SoFaI)

Hopo

07-01-2008, 03:58 AM

Might of Oaks and Stonewood Invocation are bad. When you're surprise blocking a 4/5 'goyf, does it usually matter whether you're a 6/6 or a 10/10? Briarhorn sticks around to beat the opponent, while Might of Oaks sits in the graveyard and requires you to already have a creature to be good. Same deal with Stonewood Invocation.

Tarmogoyf is amazing, even in Elephant Stompy where we don't make much use of the graveyard. Who cares if it clashes with the odd Chalice at two if it's nuts every other time. Don't run less than four.

Gathan Raiders doesn't work so well with Harmonize and SoFI, and like Spector said, it doesn't make green mana on a Chrome Mox. I almost never get Hellbent with this deck, making Gathan Raiders undesirable.

True, hellbent doesn't matter for this deck at all so it propably just sucks.
After testing, I also agree to the Tarmogoyf matter. It's just too good of a win condition.

I was thinking of Might of Oaks/Stonewood invocation more as an offensive tool with the tramplers or colossus to fasten the clock than a trick for blocking goyfs but Briarhorn still pretty much obsoletes them. Good reasons given.

Kuma

07-02-2008, 12:39 PM

So I tested Genesis and to be blunt, it sucks. It's basically an overcosted beater since you have no way to get it into the graveyard. Granted, I didn't test it against anything with Pernicious Deed in it, but Genesis seems to suck versus just about anything else. Maybe if we could fit two or three in the sideboard for the board control matches. Maybe SoLS is just better...

What about running Tsunami over Choke? Lots of decks are prepared to deal with Choke (at least in my metagame) by running a few non-island lands. A Krosan Grip or a Deed will stop a Choke, but both are powerless against Tsunami. It's not like 3G is hard for Elephant Stompy to make. What do you guys think?

I really want Wicker-bough Elder; he seems good enough to maindeck and he should really help with Landstill/ITF.

ThatGuyThere

07-16-2008, 10:28 PM

Hey; hopefully this doesn't count as a (complete) Necro, because I have something to add. Longtime format-watcher; recent change in financial situation means I'm turning into a participant.

I recently acquired my first two Berserks, *and* a City of Traitors, so I figured I'd give this beast a whirl. I've had a lot of success in testing; I find I really enjoy the deck, and it can get pretty explosive. Spawnwrithe is just disgusting.

But I had a creature suggestion - I've had fantastic success with Avenging Druid (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?&id=6137) (go ahead, look it up - Exodus common, you haven't used him in years). He gets you land, fills the 'yard for Goyf, and if equipped with a Sword of Light and Shadow, gets those creatures back from the yard to beat again. Just like Spawnwrithe is "deal with this - fast - or die", so is the Avenging Druid (well, in this deck, at least).

Kuma

07-17-2008, 11:35 AM

I dunno, dude. He's a 1/3 without equipment and you can't rely on having equipment to make your creatures good. He does cute things with SoLS, but that just what this is -- the proverbial Danger of Cute Things®. A one power creature isn't "deal with this - fast - or die". Even with equipment on him, he's only got three power.

If you want to post some testing results or game logs in which he was awesome, maybe it would help your case.

Alfred

07-17-2008, 01:24 PM

Hunting Cheetah could be better. I mean, the ability isn't as good, but the power isn't drastically below the curve.

Phantom

07-17-2008, 02:22 PM

Alfred

07-17-2008, 05:57 PM

These would be decent suggestions if we at all needed a bunch of forests. However, we need 1-2 forests to pull off our gameplan, so let's refocus on beatdown and not worry about slightly thinning our deck.

I mean, it lets you hit a land drop every turn it connects. That lets you play your hand out more quickly. It's also not drastically undersized for a turn 1/2 threat.

Kuma

07-17-2008, 06:02 PM

For those of you who want Avenging Druid in the deck, name a card we currently run that it is better than.

Alfred

07-17-2008, 06:58 PM

First of all, I didn't say anything about including Avenging Druid. I actually brought up Hunting Cheetah in response to you mentioning that Avenging Druid's power wasn't up to snuff. It has a similar effect, and packs more of a punch.

As for your list, if you were asking me what I would cut in order to test this card, perhaps you could start by trimming some of the equipment/collossi. Or you could proxy them into the spots occupied by Spawnwrithe to see if they are worth it.

Wallace

07-17-2008, 08:11 PM

Watcher487

07-17-2008, 08:21 PM

Two cards to throw into the mix here: Talara's Battalion an Wren's Run Vanquisher. They are both :1::g: to cast and at 4/3 and 3/3 aren't bad. If you run Manamorphose you could drop a turn 1 Battalion. Also with the low mana cost of all of the cards in this deck, have you ever thought of running Llanowar Elves over Chrome mox? They both come down turn 1 and while the elves can't tap for a :g: on the first turn, they are another dude and a good source of green mana...

Vanquisher has been something I've considered alot for this deck, but the chances of having another elf in hand with this deck is so poor. And officially I hate Battalion cause it requires you to run a cantrip in a deck that WANTS TO PLAY TRINI OR CHALICE FOR 2 in the first few turns.

Kuma

07-17-2008, 08:28 PM

Talara's Battalion would be a dead card most of the time, as we would need at least four mana plus another green spell to cast it and usually at least five mana. Wren's Run Vanquisher costs 4G, not 1G as we don't run nearly enough elves to reliably reduce its cost. Llanowar Elves has dis-synergy with Chalice. None of these cards really take advantage of the acceleration provided by Tomb and City either.

Just play aggro elves if you want to use those cards.

@Alfred

Hunting Cheetah seems interesting, but it's from P3K, so I'll have a hard time ever tracking it down. Still, I don't think this deck needs to find more Forests, and having to damage the opponent to activate the ability isn't going to be easy without some form of evasion. There is no way the card is better than Spawnwrithe. A single Spawnwrithe hitting the opponent will quickly win you the game. The same cannot be said for Cheetah. I'm not sure how positive the results are going to be if we cut equipment to run a creature that needs equipment to be good. Cutting Chamelon Colossus would be like cutting Rakdos Pit Dragon in Dragon Stompy. I'm starting to wonder if we should run four instead of the standard three.

Were I to test it, I'd probably cut 3-4 Briarhorn or Call of the Herd to test it, but I won't be because I think it clearly doesn't belong here.

lunar_eternal_blue

07-17-2008, 11:34 PM

Kuma

07-18-2008, 10:41 AM

I'll give you that either this or Demon Stompy is the worst chalice aggro deck, but you're making it sound like the deck is bad because it only runs the best creature in the format and only drops Choke turn one, a card nearly as format eating as Blood Moon.

Now that I think about it, Elephant Stompy is probably better than Demon Stompy vs. aggro and worse vs. board control. So which is worse really depends on your meta.

ThatGuyThere

07-18-2008, 11:08 AM

If you want to post some testing results or game logs in which he was awesome, maybe it would help your case.

A fair request. I've not done anything so formal; just starting out in the format, playing a few of my friends who run low-land stompy, a really weird Survival of the Meathooks build, and No-Stick. I'm supposed to be trying out a tournament next Sunday; I'll see how that goes.

I mean, it lets you hit a land drop every turn it connects. That lets you play your hand out more quickly. It's also not drastically undersized for a turn 1/2 threat.

This. I've been able to go Avenging Druid -> Sword -> Spawnwrithe -> Game time and time again. If the Druid connects, and you flip up a land, your hand drops faster, and the tempo shifts even further in your favour. And the Sword of Light and Shadow provides card-advantage by bouncing beaters back from your graveyard for you.

And no. Don't cut Spawnwrithe. He's amazing. If two Spawnwrithes connect, the game is as-good-as over.

I tested with Chalice, and I tested with Thorn, and I found I was getting better results with the Thorn of Amythest, since it let me still use things like Berserk (which is still fantastic at twice the price) and Giant Growth. Has anyone else tried the Thorn, or am I flying solo, there?

What's at :1: that you don't effectively neutralize by making it cost :2: with Thorn or :3: with the 3-Sphere? All I've ever worried about is Swords, and even then, they don't have a handful of them (at least, not 2-games-in-3).

moOnsteak

07-18-2008, 11:55 AM

^
Nobody think about cutting Spawnwrithe, that creature is the soul of this build. .

In comparison of Demon and Elephant Stompy, this's my opinion :

Demon
1. Dusk Urchin and Graveborn Muse are awesome as draw engines. .
2. Cleaning the board is an easy job, thanks to Ashling, Shriekmaw, and Bane of the Living. .
3. There's additional disruption beside of Chalice, called Unmask. .
4. Urborg make your manabase healthy. .
5. Lost life is the main issue, need more strategy to fix this side. .
6. One of mana acceleration (Dark Ritual) has un-synergy with CotV

Elephant
1. Spawnrithe is dominating, best part in this build. .
2. Pump ability from Briarhorn, Garuuk, and Colossus make your creature almost unbeatable in close combat.
3. Garuuk is also mana accel and creatures producer, ckck. .
4. Harmonize is good, too bad it's not a creature :tongue:
5. Any Spirit Guide will always good in any Stompy build. .
6. Lack of disruption, looking for some Gaddock Teeg ability with casting cost :2::g:
7. Need more Jitte and SoFI to help clean the board. .

rufus

07-18-2008, 06:07 PM

How about Citanul Woodreaders It can shake a stick, fits the mana curve, and has a draw ability for the late game.

Mungha Wurm seems like it has decent synergy with land digging and multi-mana lands.

Does Charbelcher have potential as a clock?

Summoner's Pact?

Kuma

07-19-2008, 10:47 AM

oh hai guys, u should liek run moss monster cuz it's green and a creture and it has a T of 6 and can block termagoff all day. plus it is a monster made of moss!

kthxbye

Kuma

07-19-2008, 10:54 AM

How about Citanul Woodreaders It can shake a stick, fits the mana curve, and has a draw ability for the late game.

No, because having a power of one isn't shaking a stick and Harmonize is 1000 times better.

Mungha Wurm seems like it has decent synergy with land digging and multi-mana lands.

What is this land digging you speak of? Maybe if Mungha Wurm had trample, but Iwamori of the Open Fist would still be a better card and we don't even run him.

Does Charbelcher have potential as a clock?

You're kidding, right?

Summoner's Pact?

This is a Stompy deck, not a combo deck. We need threat density not tutors.

Willoe

07-19-2008, 02:16 PM

Is disruption really the only thing what this deck really needs? If not, various creatures at a 2G cost might be interesting, depending on the build.

Taoist Hermit - Yay for expensive mehesque cards! No, but seriously, this guy could actually do something when equipped with a Jitte.

Hungry Spriggan - I guess this fella has been discussed and abandoned, but it's perhaps worth a try.

Titania's Chosen - We do play a lot of green spells, but maybe some extra Tarmogoyfs in place of this one.

Are these creatures too janky? I see most potential in Taoist Hermit, but maybe that's just me.

Kuma

07-19-2008, 02:41 PM

Is disruption really the only thing what this deck really needs?

Yes. Stop suggesting creatures unless you have thouroughly tested them.

Taoist Hermit - Yay for expensive mehesque cards! No, but seriously, this guy could actually do something when equipped with a Jitte.

Creatures that are uninspiring unless equipped do not belong in this deck.

Hungry Spriggan - I guess this fella has been discussed and abandoned, but it's perhaps worth a try.

He's not terrible, but he's pretty easy to kill when he isn't attacking. He's probably worth a serious look, so give him a shot and tell us how he works for you.

Titania's Chosen - We do play a lot of green spells, but maybe some extra Tarmogoyfs in place of this one.

Am I dreaming, or has this thread really degenerated into people suggesting jank like Goblin Charbelcher in a stompy deck and running Titania's Chosen over Tarmogoyf?

Are these creatures too janky?

Yes.

I see most potential in Taoist Hermit, but maybe that's just me.

I think the Spriggan has far more potential.

Roman Candle

07-19-2008, 11:21 PM

This stompy build seems to be the weakest of the stompy colors. A green stompy deck seems like it should be much faster. I must say though, being a threshold/dreadstill player, a turn 1 choke makes my eye twitch. Berserk seems really explosive, but I understand that it doesn't work very well with chalice. Dragon Stompy is extremely disruptive with moon effects, and Faerie stompy has Sea Drakes along with Force, Angel Stompy has Angel and Moat, but I don't see what green gives you besides choke and Tarmogoyf (who also doesn't fit with chalice or the double colorless lands). Sorry, I just don't think this is up to snuff with other stompy builds.

I dunno if this is the weakest of the Stompy builds... I haven't tested it enough (because I thought the Elves version was so much more badass) but it seems like Elephant Stompy has access to card advantage engines that Dragon Stompy, etc. don't. I played both Stompies for awhile and often ended up running out of steam. Harmonize, Call of the Herd, and Garruk all solve this problem (as well as Hystrodon, which I think deserves more testing). Green also gives you Spawnwrithe, which is a sick turn 1 drop... it basically says, STP OR FOW ME RIGHT NOW OR I WILL EAT UR FACE RAWR kinda like Magus of the Moon.

And yeah, Choke is a big deal. Like, really big. Incredibly so. Krosan Grip is, too.

But I could be wrong, considering I couldn't play with Dragon Stompy for more than a day or so because the inconsistency drove me apeshit.

As for disruption, have we thought about Smokestack? Perhaps its Danger of Cool Things, but it has synergy with Spawnwrithe, Garruk, and to a lesser extent Call of the Herd. It probably needs a little more dedication with other token makers, Avenging Druid/Hunting Cheetah, etc. but it seems like it could be scary with a solid clock behind it. Or it could hinder our own clock so much that we just lose randomly to our own cards. Meh.

EDIT: totally untested jank list.

4 Spawnwrithe
4 Imperious Perfect
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Call of the Herd
3 Garruk
3 Deranged Hermit

4 Smokestack
4 Chalice
3 SoFI
2 Umezawa's Jitte

4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Chrome Mox
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
9 Forest

Far from optimal, but interesting.

Happy Gilmore

07-21-2008, 08:47 AM

I think whats takes the cookie for me is Garruk. He can't be delt with either through targeted removal , powder keg, or Deeds. A Resolved Garruk is game over if it can be defended for a couple of turns. I am also a big big fan of Briarhorn, amazing.

I would like to revitalize the discussion on adding Loaming shaman to the main. There is an extremely good chance of killing Tarmogoyfs and Threshed creatures using his ability and a single 3\3. He hoses a couple of decks (although not very well), and his 3\2 body is nothing to snear at.

Mental

07-21-2008, 12:06 PM

Loaming Shaman seems like strong disruption that this deck could use. Then again, the MD is pretty tight, no? But I like him...just not over Perfect, Spawnwrithe, Goyf, or any of that stuff.

Happy Gilmore

07-21-2008, 12:52 PM

Loaming Shaman seems like strong disruption that this deck could use. Then again, the MD is pretty tight, no? But I like him...just not over Perfect, Spawnwrithe, Goyf, or any of that stuff.

I'm not a big fan of Perfect, he is a little too slow for me. And what do you define as any other stuff? Spawnwrithe and Goyf I can see but what are the other creatures in your deck? The new 4/4 for 4 with a Naturalize build in seems amazing, Briarhorn is amazing, Call of the Herd is fing amazing, hell most of it is amazing. Its not the creature base I am worried about, its more about the spells. I feel the deck should be playing 4 Garruk, and I reason for 4 because its the scariest card control and Thresh could run into. I am not expecting the first one to stick most of the time and when it does it is a bonus. It gives Chrome mox targets to imprint later, but more importantly, having four would give you an opportunity to use the first for all its worth then play a second one (which would pump goyf even more).

Kuma

07-21-2008, 03:00 PM

Loaming Shaman is a fine maindeck addition to the deck, but I don't like how he shrinks goyf considering how we run a four pack of goyfs ourselves. He seems best suited to the sideboard, unless you regularly play against a lot of Thresh, Ichorid, and Loam.

I've never tried Perfect in here, but I doubt he'll be better than any of our current slots.

Four Garruk could give us a slight boost against board control. Wicker-Bough Elder also seems solid enough to maindeck a copy or two with another copy or two in the board. I'll have to make some changes to my list and test it.

Roman Candle

07-21-2008, 03:32 PM

I've never tried Perfect in here, but I doubt he'll be better than any of our current slots.

The only reason I put Perfect in that list is for Smokestack. Otherwise, I wouldn't bother with him.

Kuma

07-21-2008, 04:31 PM

How are your testing results coming? Your list looks interesting, even if it is a bit of a departure from Chalice Aggro.

Roman Candle

07-21-2008, 04:35 PM

How are your testing results coming? Your list looks interesting, even if it is a bit of a departure from Chalice Aggro.

I actually haven't had a chance to test it. I've been tied up with hospital stuff (colonoscopy, not fun). But now I've been discharged and once I get this Source tourney round out of the way, I'll fire it up on MWS.

Illissius

07-21-2008, 05:02 PM

Loaming Shaman is a fine maindeck addition to the deck, but I don't like how he shrinks goyf considering how we run a four pack of goyfs ourselves.

You choose how many and which cards to shuffle back, so it only shrinks Goyf if you want it to.

tsabo_tavoc

07-22-2008, 06:25 PM

Illissius

07-22-2008, 07:33 PM

Has Trinisphere been good? The change I would most consider for your list would be -3 Sphere, +2 Call, +1 Elder. Which is partly because I despise artifacts in a Chrome Mox deck and don't like to play any more than are absolutely necessary. Otherwise, I like the list, but I don't think Colossus is competing with Briarhorn for slots; it's competing with Spheres, Harmonizes, equipment, Shamans, Elders, and the fourth Garruk.

Happy Gilmore

07-23-2008, 09:04 AM

I got time to test a few rounds in MWS and the deck's performance surprised me. It didn't win dominantly against aggro, nor lose terribly against control, versus combo is a matter of MD 3spheres, and like all Stompy variants, inconsistency hit the deck. I do like my test list except the Chokes.

10 Forest
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Chrome Mox
4 Elvish Spirit Guide

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Sprawnwrithe
4 Briarhorn
4 Garruk Wildspeaker
2 Wickerbough Elder
2 Call of the Herd

4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
2 Harmonize
3 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Sword of Fire and Ice

SB:
4 Krosan Grip
4 Pithing Needle
4 Choke
3 Loaming Shaman

A full set Briarhorns: YEAH! They are the Dragons in Elephant Stompy! In the 4cc slot, a 6/6 flasher is way better than a 4/4 mana hungry pumper. Colossus has Pro black, however, our black MUs are usually favorable; Colossus races combo, but is still too slow and much worse than 3spheres;
Briarhorn connects Sprawnwrithe, kills (not trades with) Tarmogoyf, surprises!

A full set Garruks: WHY NOT?

4 2-of slots are for testing purpose, and I liked all of them.

Chokes: As Kuma has pointed out, decks are prepared to Chokes. I don't think Tsunamis will be any better. I would just add 2 Call of the Herds to cement the counterspell MU.

Hail Storms: For Gobbos? For Etws? I do think there are better alternatives.

A full set of Garruks is certainly the way to go. After some testing on MWS in solo mode vs. 5c thresh, Dragon Stompy, and Landstill (more to follow). I can say for sure that 4 is correct. Use him and abuse him, thats all I can say. He is so hard to deal with since there is very little removal for him outside of simply burning him out.

Here is what I found out about this deck. Tarmogoyf is surprizingly good, Spawnwrith lives up to its hype and can single handedly win games even without pump or equipment, Garruk is an engine on his own, and Call of the Herd was awsome every time I drew it.

Initially I was testing Harmonize as a three of and liked the ability to restock my hand. However, it didn't prevent me from losing to huge flyers like Mystic Enforcer, Fledgling Dagon, Tombstalker, and Rakdos Pit Dragon (it should be noted that the mana cost posed no problems over a ten game set). So instead I ran it as equipment and liked it quite a bit better. My current list:

10 Forest
4 City
4 Tomb
4 ESG
4 Chrome Mox

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
2 SoFI
2 SoLS
2 Jitte

4 Call of the Herd
4 Garruk

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Spawnwrith
4 Briarhorn

SB:
4 Pithing Needle
3 Loaming Shaman
4 Krosan Grip
4 Faerie Macabree (if your especting a lot of Ichorid it will give you those precious turns you need to stop them)

The equipment is perfect, and I find that rarely do you not have a creature to equip too. I can't put my finger on it...but for some reason this deck mulligans better than any artifact agro list I have tested thus far.

I need to test it against ichorid but playing ichorid on MWS is fing slow haha.

Has Trinisphere been good? The change I would most consider for your list would be -3 Sphere, +2 Call, +1 Elder. Which is partly because I despise artifacts in a Chrome Mox deck and don't like to play any more than are absolutely necessary. Otherwise, I like the list, but I don't think Colossus is competing with Briarhorn for slots; it's competing with Spheres, Harmonizes, equipment, Shamans, Elders, and the fourth Garruk.

The weakest card in my oppinion is Trinisphere, but I can't think of much else I want in that slot. This is partially due to the fact that I dont want to give up room in the SB, and It gives more power against combo. Not to mention allowing you to resolve Garruk against control. Hmm...I guess I better leave it in. Although, I would cut one if I felt there was something good to substitute for it. maybe the 4th Loaming shaman?

Call of the Herd should be a 4 of. I can't see playing less than that, its card advantage 100% of the time. Your opponent will think twice before countering it because they know you will get another one, but either way...they are probably going to have to deal with both some how. I like elder but its not even in the same league as Call, and don't forget that it pumps Goyf or makes it smaller at key times when you flash it back.

Kuma

07-23-2008, 02:19 PM

You choose how many and which cards to shuffle back, so it only shrinks Goyf if you want it to.

True, but if you aren't shrinking goyf, Shaman is just going to be an uninspiring 3/2 body for 2G unless you're playing against Loam, Ichorid, or a few other similar decks. I really think the guy is sideboard material at best.

I got time to test a few rounds in MWS and the deck's performance surprised me. It didn't win dominantly against aggro, nor lose terribly against control, versus combo is a matter of MD 3spheres, and like all Stompy variants, inconsistency hit the deck. I do like my test list except the Chokes.

It's funny you should say that, because I've had the exact opposite experience. Elephant Stompy destroys aggro, and pretty much scoops to Landstill/ITF. I don't think this deck can beat It's The Fear three times out of ten. If combo is that huge in your meta, then by all means run Trinisphere in the main deck. I've personally found it to be terrible in most matchups, but this always seems to fall on deaf ears in all the Stompy threads.

The only decks that Trinisphere is good against at any time besides turn one on the play are Threshold, Storm combo, Burn, Affinity, 9 Land Stompy, and Enchantress. Somehow I don't think most people's metagames look like that.

A full set Briarhorns: YEAH! They are the Dragons in Elephant Stompy! In the 4cc slot, a 6/6 flasher is way better than a 4/4 mana hungry pumper. Colossus has Pro black, however, our black MUs are usually favorable; Colossus races combo, but is still too slow and much worse than 3spheres;

Briarhorn, while an excellent card, is not the "Dragon" in Elephant Stompy. Briarhorn swings for three, Colossus swings for 4-16; the pro black is just an added bonus. Trinisphere is a sideboard card.

Chokes: As Kuma has pointed out, decks are prepared to Chokes. I don't think Tsunamis will be any better. I would just add 2 Call of the Herds to cement the counterspell MU.

My metagame is prepared for Choke, but that doesn't mean that most metagames are. Turn one Choke is insanely awesome vs. blue, and the more I think about it, the less I want to cut Choke or replace it with Tsunami.

Hail Storms: For Gobbos? For Etws? I do think there are better alternatives.

Such as?

Call of the Herd should be a 4 of. I can't see playing less than that, its card advantage 100% of the time. Your opponent will think twice before countering it because they know you will get another one, but either way...they are probably going to have to deal with both some how. I like elder but its not even in the same league as Call, and don't forget that it pumps Goyf or makes it smaller at key times when you flash it back.

I dunno, dude. Almost everytime I draw more than one CotH, I find myself not taking full advantage of both. I'm thinking three might be a better number to run.

tsabo_tavoc

07-24-2008, 11:18 AM

It's funny you should say that, because I've had the exact opposite experience. Elephant Stompy destroys aggro, and pretty much scoops to Landstill/ITF. I don't think this deck can beat It's The Fear three times out of ten. If combo is that huge in your meta, then by all means run Trinisphere in the main deck. I've personally found it to be terrible in most matchups, but this always seems to fall on deaf ears in all the Stompy threads.

ITF is an autolose, Elephant Stompy could by no means win against a combination of Deed/EE/Shackle. However, if a control deck only packs 1 kind of them, there is a good chance to fight against by Needle.

Trinispheres are awkward, however, without them, you lose to combo game1, and consequently the round. Besides Chalice, Dragon Stompy has 8 Moons to slow down combo, Elephant Stompy has none. Ichorid is an exception thanks to Briarhorns.

Aggro matchups are not a piece of cake: Aggroloams scorf at our 3/3 weenies and Gobbos weird out our only wall against Lackey. I don't like Hail Storm because it affects only attacking creatures and costs 1GG. I am testing Snakeform as another pseudo removal, forming a Goblin Warchief or a Titania Priest buys a turn.

In all, this deck is a Tier3 deck, or at best, a Tier2. It needs cards like Patina Moon or Force of Thrive.

Kuma

07-24-2008, 11:54 AM

Is combo that huge in your metagame? And what's with the silly notion that if you lose to combo game one, you can't win the best of three. I've lost game one, sided in Trinispheres and won games two and three plenty of times. You know, as much as you hate Hail Storm it's pretty good against your precious combo matchup.

If you can get a Sword of Fire and Ice out, Aggro Loam becomes less of a problem. We also have Chalice at two vs. them and Crypt/Loaming Shaman in the board. I haven't tested the matchup, but we have options.

Hail Storm >> Snakeform vs. Goblins. Every creature in Goblins save Wort (assuming they even run her) has a toughness of two or less. You act like only hitting attacking creatures makes the card terrible. Since when does Goblins hold back a significant portion of their army in the combat phase? You will three for one them or better more often than not. It doesn't answer turn one Lackey, but it can handle the Lackey plus anything it dropped after the first turn or two.

Maveric78f

07-25-2008, 10:04 AM

I tried an inspired version of monoG stompy after playing Tsabo yesterday on MWS. My testings were good, even if most of my opponents were bad, and I could see it from the first turns of each game.

I think that Garruk is not *4 MD because it's too difficult to play it. Although, I liked playing some random slots MD of Loaming Shaman and Wicked-Bough Elder, instead of trinisphere which is too often completely useless.

My list is this one up to now:
// Lands
10 [5E] Forest (1)
4 [EX] City of Traitors
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb

// Creatures
2 [DIS] Loaming Shaman
3 [LRW] Garruk Wildspeaker
4 [LRW] Briarhorn
4 [SHM] Spawnwrithe
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [AL] Elvish Spirit Guide
2 [EVE] Wicker-Bough Elder

// Spells
3 [EVG] Harmonize
2 [DS] Sword of Fire and Ice
3 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
3 [TSB] Call of the Herd
4 [MR] Chrome Mox

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [DIS] Loaming Shaman
SB: 1 [LRW] Garruk Wildspeaker
SB: 1 [EVE] Wicker-Bough Elder
SB: 3 [TE] Choke
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 4 [DS] Trinisphere
SB: 1 [WL] Gaea's Blessing

Against blue control decks: trinisphere + choke + anti artefacts/enchants against mister giant growth on legs and the equipments.
Against aggro: well, basically nothing. I did not face a lot of them. And the MU should be quite good.
Against non blue control decks: very difficult, they usually use a lot the graveyard and sometimes use artifacts/enchantments, so that grips and elder may be important. Chalice is often useless. Garruk shines here.
Against anykind of painter combo: blessing + anti artifacts = gg.
Against combo, trinisphere of course.

Happy Gilmore

07-26-2008, 04:52 AM

You say that garruk is too hard to play yet you also run 3x Harmonize? Harmonize isn't as good as you may think. Not running 4 Coth is also a big big mistake, The card is always card advantage and a way to pump goys. Believe me when I say, its worth running more.

tsabo_tavoc

07-29-2008, 09:53 AM

Choke convinced me and replaced Pithing Needle in the Sideboard. The 2 targets I really want to needle are Wasteland and Academy's Ruins (with a Krosan Grip in hand).

Also, I began testing Sylvan Library in this deck and yet not sure if it is the right move. I throw a decklist here to inspire some improvement to abuse Sylvan Library.

8 Forest
4 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Windswept Heath
4 Chrome Mox
4 Elvish Spirit Guide

2 Sakura-Tribe Elder
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Spawnwrithe
4 Briarhorn
4 Call of the Herd
4 Garruk Wildspeaker

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Sylvan Library
3 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Krosan Grip

SB:
4 Trinisphere
4 Choke
3 Loaming Shaman
3 Krosan Grip
1 Gaea's Blessing

Hopo

08-22-2008, 02:20 AM

I don't think that dropping colossus is the way to go. It's the closest thing to pit dragons we have and with some occasionally seen garruk-tricks it can trample for 14 on turn three. Colossus and Spawnwrithe just can deal lethal damage surprisingly fast if not taken care of.

I didn't own any CotH's until yesterday. I've been playing with 4 Stonewood Invocation in their slot. It makes Spawnwrithe connect, speeds up the clock, kills goyfs and randomly counters Swords to Plowshares and messes up opponent's targeted tricks on their own creatures. I was pretty happy with that, but now I will try Calls of the Herd and figure out which one I continue to use.

Spawnwrithe is really a good card and if it gets to connect, you usually win. I'm a bit surprised there's so little hype about it. Perhaps this is just the only deck that can support it's casting cost.

Illissius

08-22-2008, 02:45 AM

mercenarybdu

08-22-2008, 03:31 AM

How about Imperious Perfect for some back up and vamping up on all the creatures?

Hopo

08-22-2008, 04:53 AM

The deck doesn't need to run "the closest thing to pit dragons", it needs to run the best cards it can. Which isn't an argument against Colossus but against the reasoning. Personally, what I like about Colossus is it can actually kill a Tarmogoyf in combat.

Sure. I was just referring to the fact that pit dragon is a house and DS wouldn't be nearly as good and fast without it. Colossus can be almost as housy in this deck, as it's perfectly capable of dealing 10+ damage in a turn. It also enables those ridiculous 1st turn garruk+token -> 2nd turn lock piece + colossus ->3rd turn swing for 20 trample dmg -absurdities which just occasionally win you games and makes opponents swear. It's fast. Not as fast as pit dragon, but still fast enough as 2 connected swings usually ends the game. It lacks universal evasion but deals massive damage. 2/2, 3/3 or goyf suffers from opponent resolving a goyf. As you mentioned, colossus can end these stalls thus increasing speed.

I wouldn't replace it. Someone else probably would.

Happy Gilmore

08-22-2008, 09:24 AM

Illissius

08-22-2008, 03:09 PM

Sure, 8 mana later...

Of course, but there's almost nothing else with a casting cost south of five mana that can do it, so that it's even possible is novel. Hunted Wumpus could probably do it most of the time, but it has a drawback.

Its great and all but I wouldn't trade a Garruk or CoTH for him. You are right however regarding playing the best cards. If you want a tricky way to kill tarmogoyf try using a Briarhorn or a loaming shaman.

...which I have also been talking up these past pages.

Anyways, I'm not sure about Colossus -- he seems sort of slow and clunky -- but what I like about him is that he can defeat a Tarmogoyf. That's all.

Mantis

08-25-2008, 09:52 AM

First of all, great job on this deck so far, I love the Spawnwrithes and the Briarhorns, great innovations.

Now to discuss my own decklist. This probably can't be considered Stompy anymore, as it sacrificed speed for more resiliency. In my opinion a lot of Stompy decks can come crashing out of the gates, but can also just fizzle due to a lack of speed in the opening hand or the first threat being removed. The result is this list:

3 Llanowar Elves
4 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Spawnwrithe
4 Briarhorn
4 Imperious Perfect
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Skyshroud Poacher
1 Thornweald Archer
1 Viridian Shaman
2 Wicker-Bough Elder

4 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Sword of Fire and Ice

4 Ancient Tomb
4 Wasteland
13 Forest
2 Pendelhaven

SB:
4 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Gaea's Blessing
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Viridian Shaman
4 Choke

So basically what you see is that cards like City of Traitors and Chrome Mox are replaced by mana elves. These critters help reach double G and can be equipped, not to mention with a Skyshroud Elite out a few activations (search for Imperious Perfect), will quickly create a lethal army.

This deck has a very strong matchup against control decks, as almost every threat is an engine on it's own. Postboard the Chokes come in and things get even better. Another strong matchup are aggro decks, especially Stompy decks as you should be able to win the equipment war by Poacher --> Shaman. I thought Goblins would be a good matchup as well, as you can create bigger threats than they can and in addition you there is the removal. Testing however got me to 50/50 3-3 in games against solid opponents, but that's a small sample.

The combo matchup is pretty awful, not going to lie. Against black disruption decks I did beneath 50% but that was before I replaced my Tangle Wires with different cards so it might very well be better now.

I don't run Chalice, but I actually believe they are not as strong as they used to be. Obviously they suck combined with the Elves, so I couldn't even run them. I can see them shoring up the combo matchup a whole lot, but that's about it. Threshold and the like is already a good matchup in this configuration, and against aggro decks I'd much rather have more threats. Curious to other opinions on this subject.

Happy Gilmore

08-25-2008, 11:01 AM

Of course, but there's almost nothing else with a casting cost south of five mana that can do it, so that it's even possible is novel. Hunted Wumpus could probably do it most of the time, but it has a drawback.

...which I have also been talking up these past pages.

Anyways, I'm not sure about Colossus -- he seems sort of slow and clunky -- but what I like about him is that he can defeat a Tarmogoyf. That's all.

I don't really understand the fear of tarmogoyf. Atleast the list I have been testing hasn't had a problem with him. I have 6 equipment spells, 4 goyfs of my own, 4 Briarhorn, and a way to trample over with everything.

The deck is probably equally as good against combo and against thresh as the other variations. However I am having a hard time against Landstill without Moon effects. The exception is when I can get a Garruk online. Tsunami is very powerful and can win games but there are other benefits to moons .

As it stands, the cards I fear the most are huge flyers like Pit Dragon, Tombstalker, and Enforcer. Along with Control decks with many sweepers. Maybe I will try and find room for atleast a pair of Krosan Grips in the main.

Kuma

08-25-2008, 01:29 PM

There's no way this is as good against combo as the other Stompys. Dragon Stompy has moon and Pyroclasm, Faerie Stompy has Fow, and Demon Stompy has Unmask. Elephant Stompy just has Chalice and maybe Trinisphere. Not that the combo matchup really needs to be worried about.

Landstill/ITF/VoroshStill is the worst matchup Elephant Stompy has. It's probably something like 30/70, and no matter what I try I can't seem to improve it. Choke, Grip, and Needle aren't enough.

Try Wicker-Bough Elder over Krosan Grip in the main. It's not a dead card if the opponent lacks relevant targets.

Right now, this is what I'm running:

10x Forest
4x Ancient Tomb
4x City of Traitors

4x Tarmogoyf
4x Spawnwrithe
4x Elvish Spirit Guide
3x Call of the Herd
4x Briarhorn
3x Chameleon Colossus
4x Garruk Wildspeaker
2x Wicker-Bough Elder

4x Chrome Mox
4x Chalice of the Void
2x Sword of Fire and Ice
2x Sword of Light and Shadow
2x Umezawa's Jitte

Sideboard
3x Krosan Grip
4x Choke
4x Pithing Needle
4x Loaming Shaman

Roman Candle

08-26-2008, 08:42 PM

Mantis

08-27-2008, 02:51 AM

Hibernation's End seems like it could be really good here... it would allow you to play silver bullets like Loaming Shaman, or else it could just be a way to add more threats to the board. It might be really lame, though, since you can't run 1cc critters, and its slow.
You will have to run 1cc critters in the case of Hibernation's End so you will have something to look for. It's pretty slow yes, but nevertheless I may give it a shot. It's way too slow to run Loaming Shaman, you can't afford to wait 3 turns really, to get an effect you need now. You would have to look for some 1, 2 and to lesser extent 3 CMC creatures that play nicely together so you basically win when the third comes into play. Even that might be too slow though.

MGC_player

09-08-2008, 08:31 AM

I've been playing with my attempts at a monogreen chalice control variant, but each modification I make shifts it more to an aggro direction. This variant actually allows for disruption and takes advantage of green's other abilities besides the large fat.

Lands: 18
10x Forest
4x Ancient Tomb
4x City of Traitors

Creatures: 21
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Spawnwrithe
4x Elvish Spirit Guide
4x Hungry Spriggan
3x Argothian Wurm
2x Isao Enlightened Bushi

Planeswalker: 2
2x Garruk Wildspeaker

Disruption: 7
4x Ice Storm
3x Trinisphere

Artifacts: 12
4x Chrome Mox
4x Chalice of the Void
2x Sword of Fire and Ice
2x Umezawa's Jitte

Sideboard
3x Krosan Grip
3x Tormod's Crypt
4x Pithing Needle
1x Trinisphere
1x Gaea's Blessing
3x Choke/Tsunami/Marshdrinker Giant

The deck minimizes the double green costs as much as possible while still playing an aggressive game. Most of the creatures also have trample which makes chump blocking almost pointless. Land destruction is the disruption the deck uses. Combined with Trinisphere, it is usually enough to slow people down as you beat them with very large trampling creatures.

Other possible choices for the deck include:
Hystrodon
Fireshrieker
Thresher Beast

__________________

Kuma

09-08-2008, 09:50 AM

I like the mana denial idea, but running only two Garruk is criminal. There should be Wastelands in here somewhere if you're going to go that route.

rufus

09-08-2008, 10:29 AM

You will have to run 1cc critters in the case of Hibernation's End so you will have something to look for. It's pretty slow yes, but nevertheless I may give it a shot. It's way too slow to run Loaming Shaman, you can't afford to wait 3 turns really, to get an effect you need now. You would have to look for some 1, 2 and to lesser extent 3 CMC creatures that play nicely together so you basically win when the third comes into play. Even that might be too slow though.

It doesn't really fit into this deck, but there's
Quillspike + Devoted Druid

tpnp

09-26-2008, 01:23 PM

Has anyone been watching the list of cards coming out of Alara? Here's something that might fit into this deck:

http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?&id=175006

Thoughts?

rufus

09-26-2008, 02:31 PM

Has anyone been watching the list of cards coming out of Alara? Here's something that might fit into this deck:

http://www.wizards.com/mtg/images/tcg/products/shardsofalara/5iwjoehl1l_EN.jpg

Thoughts?

Seems comparable to Hungry Spriggan in many ways. A minor synergy with Briarhorn as well.

Gift of the Gargantuan has the right cc, but might be less than ideal.

This one might also work:
Feral Hydra GX 0/0
Comes into play with X +1/+1 counters
3: Put a +1/+1 counter on Feral Hydra. Any player may play this ability.

Knuckles29

09-27-2008, 05:18 AM

I'm gonna step out onto the firing range b/c I have random thoughts too.

1) This deck is junk, it always will be as green's disruption is not there really. That said, I do want to try and add my $0.02 because I like the idea.

2) I took the time to read this whole thread to make sure I'm not giving bad advice x2.

3) They are ideas from looking at old decklists from years ago, so I'm sure they aren't the best, but innovation through any means...

Now the fun part:

Blastoderm seems good turn 1-2. I played 5/3 for a bit and the Juggernaught/Centurion is kinda why I won.

Leyline is also a great add to this, as resolving shrouded guys seems like gg to anything not combo

FAllow/Thundering Wurm were good in the old days of true stompy. Their cc fits the deck's design needs. And as a turn 1 4/4 might be a good idea if people are against CAll of the Herd

Land Grant as a mana source/deck thinner is not bad, but probably is not "it"

I've thought about +4 Wasteland, +2-3 Crucible, and possibly +4 Mox DIamond to assist in the GG problem

Faerie Macbre is a good answer if Dredge is your combo of hate, esp if you run Genesis

Genesis seems good in theory, but yes; him into yard? Not easy, probably Raiders or something like Gigapede

RAvenous Baloth + Garruk is SOOOOO busted, and noone mentioned it when they were fighting for Baloth

The package of 4 SoFI and 2 Jitte served me well in 5/3, and you just side them out when they aren't needed.

My sideboard included Sphere of Resistence (Maybe THorn is better here), CAltrops/Thunderstaff vs Goblins, and a 4th 3Sphere b/c 3 were main. I knwo the deck funtioned different but I loved it so.

Indrik Stomphowler MD? IMO as long as you can accell it would be decent, and if you have Baloth it is good...

Norishing Shoal as a way to turn unneeded Garruk, Leyline, and other excess cards you probably shouldn't be runnin gin the first place into use.

And as for names: STOMPY! stompy, Tree Stompy, GG stompy (get it... b/c we play cards w/ GG.. it hurts to be so retarded)

Honorable mention for cards:
Hunting Cheetah
Q. Spike (from Alara)
Fallow Earth in the disruption idea vein, turn 1 is like Time Walk
Greater Good (Harmonize Slot)
Gift of the Gargantua is just so tempting

Last thought-
Maybe try to make a Simic or Golgari Stompy as there is enough reasons/abilities to splash

Golgari:
Deed
Combo Hate

Simic:
FoWill
I can't think of anything else right now, but I know there is stuff

Willoe

09-27-2008, 07:28 AM

Only card worth splashing is Pernicious Deed, but then you'd have to completely rebuild the deck.

Knuckles29

09-27-2008, 07:38 AM

Sims

09-27-2008, 10:16 AM

Not really. +Urborg, Possibly Mox Diamond. We have Llanowar Wastes, Bayou, Overgrown TOmb... even 5c or Filter lands.. If you wanted.. there is also Land Grant. Plus if you run Wood Elves.. ta-dah!

It is just an idea... But if you ran P.Deed, you could look into Unmask or other things that are splashable

You're still taking the deck and reworking it from Green Chalice Aggro to B/G Stax/Rock. It's an entirely different deck with a lot of "danger of cool" cards that you really don't need. Land Grant, Wood Elves, Mox Diamond? You're advocating Land Grant which requires a low land count (but higher forest count), Wood Elves which thrive more with the eight 2-mana lands, and Mox Diamond which requires a land count of 24ish at least...Pain lands and Shockduals instead of forests or swamps? Urborg? Deed? Crucible and Wastelock?

I am not attempting to be an ass or anything, but a good percentage of the cards you listed just don't work well in a deck like this. Some of them are very good cards but a lot of them just flop in this stylized version of Aggro. The deck DOES work. I've played and tested with Watcher quite a bit with his incarnations of this deck and followed along some of the evolutions that he's taken enough to know that the deck does have potential. The Trinisphere and Chalices that are in the deck can be enough MD disruption early to really put the squeeze on your opponent and slow them down, and some of the threats played will simply overwhelm the opposing player. Hell, playing some decks against him in testing I've SCOOPED to a turn 1 Spawnwrithe because I couldn't answer him before he started turning into an army. The deck is very capable, but you have to be focused on what your goal is and not pull it too far in either direction as Stax or Rock otherwise you're just playing an underpowered version of either deck.

Zinch

09-27-2008, 10:25 AM

Also, a card that costs 1GB is not castable with the 2 mana lands... This deck has to play like dragon stompy: play a disruptive permanent turn 1-2 (chalice or trinisphere) and then smash with a beast, or simply cast a big creeter turn 1 and smash

MTG Guru

09-27-2008, 12:12 PM

Has anyone considered Manaplasm? Seems like it would be a strong beater in this type of deck. Thoughts?

tpnp

09-27-2008, 12:52 PM

Has anyone considered Manaplasm? Seems like it would be a strong beater in this type of deck. Thoughts?
I hate to quote myself....but:

Has anyone been watching the list of cards coming out of Alara? Here's something that might fit into this deck:

http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?&id=175006

Thoughts?
Followed by:

Seems comparable to Hungry Spriggan in many ways. A minor synergy with Briarhorn as well.

Gift of the Gargantuan has the right cc, but might be less than ideal.

This one might also work:
Feral Hydra GX 0/0
Comes into play with X +1/+1 counters
3: Put a +1/+1 counter on Feral Hydra. Any player may play this ability.

Kuma

09-27-2008, 01:31 PM

1) This deck is junk, it always will be as green's disruption is not there really. That said, I do want to try and add my $0.02 because I like the idea.

I wouldn't go that far. Most of the disruption in Stompy is Artifact which makes the color of the deck matter less. That said, Choke is a pretty awesom piece of disruption in a format full of blue decks. It's not a moon or Force of Will, but it is good green disruption. Loaming Shaman and Hail Storm aren't terrible, and Briarhorn is pseudo-creature removal.

Blastoderm seems good turn 1-2. I played 5/3 for a bit and the Juggernaught/Centurion is kinda why I won.

Blastoderm isn't terrible, but the reasons I don't run him are that he costs four mana and can't be equipped.

Leyline is also a great add to this, as resolving shrouded guys seems like gg to anything not combo

What shroud creatures do we run? Leyline isn't a terrible card either, but I don't have much trouble with counterspells to begin with.

FAllow/Thundering Wurm were good in the old days of true stompy. Their cc fits the deck's design needs. And as a turn 1 4/4 might be a good idea if people are against CAll of the Herd

We aren't swimming in land, and often times we have problems getting three mana to stick. Besides, you're opening yourself up to card disadvantage. I'll take Call of the Herd, and I don't think anyone except you would disagree.

Land Grant as a mana source/deck thinner is not bad, but probably is not "it"

As someone who has played a lot of games with Land Grant, it's not worth it to let your opponent see your hand to thin your deck a little. Sometimes it's absolutely terrible like if your hand has City of Traitors, Land Grant, and no other land. Land Grant is only good in decks that need to play a lot of spells in one turn.

I've thought about +4 Wasteland, +2-3 Crucible, and possibly +4 Mox DIamond to assist in the GG problem

I've toyed with the idea of running Ice Storm and Wasteland to add a more controlling element to the deck. Like Sims said, we don't run enough land for Diamond.

Faerie Macbre is a good answer if Dredge is your combo of hate, esp if you run Genesis

Tormod's Crypt is almost always better than Faerie Macabre. We also have Loaming Shaman.

Genesis seems good in theory, but yes; him into yard? Not easy, probably Raiders or something like Gigapede

I tested Genesis, and it sucked. It's too hard to get him into play, let alone the yard. It's not worth building the deck around him either.

RAvenous Baloth + Garruk is SOOOOO busted, and noone mentioned it when they were fighting for Baloth

This is true, but Elephant Stompy doesn't have a long game with or without Baloth, and IMO Colossus > Baloth and most people don't even run Colossus anymore.

Indrik Stomphowler MD? IMO as long as you can accell it would be decent, and if you have Baloth it is good...

Wicker-bough Elder is almost always better than Stomphowler as you can play it if your opponent lacks Artifacts without destroying your own.

Norishing Shoal as a way to turn unneeded Garruk, Leyline, and other excess cards you probably shouldn't be runnin gin the first place into use.

No.

And as for names: STOMPY! stompy, Tree Stompy, GG stompy (get it... b/c we play cards w/ GG.. it hurts to be so retarded)

The deck is called Elephant Stompy. Name suggesting is over.

Mordel

09-27-2008, 05:15 PM

I have no idea where this list came from, nor have I really played it much, but I figured it might be interesting for some folks that are into the archetype to see:

// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)
// NAME: SGD

// Lands
3 [US] Gaea's Cradle
4 [MM] Rishadan Port
4 [TE] Wasteland
12 [SHM] Forest (1)

// Creatures
4 [SH] Wall of Blossoms
4 [10E] Troll Ascetic
3 [BOK] Iwamori of the Open Fist
4 [DM] Fyndhorn Elves
4 [EVG] Llanowar Elves
4 [FD] Eternal Witness

// Spells
3 [MR] Chalice of the Void
2 [DS] Sword of Fire and Ice
3 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
2 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [TSB] Call of the Herd

I think it came from magic-league.com

Either way, it seems like kind of an interesting deck.

tsabo_tavoc

09-28-2008, 04:44 AM

Blastoderm seems good turn 1-2. I played 5/3 for a bit and the Juggernaught/Centurion is kinda why I won.
RAvenous Baloth + Garruk is SOOOOO busted, and noone mentioned it when they were fighting for Baloth
As Kuma has stated, in short, they are competing with other 4cc slots, which include Garruk, Briarhorn and some combinations of Wicker-bough Elder, Colossus and Harmonize.

The package of 4 SoFI and 2 Jitte served me well in 5/3, and you just side them out when they aren't needed.
IMHO, 6+equipments decks are not legacily competitive save for Faerie Stompy which owns 16 flying creatures. It is kinda awkward that Kuma ran 3 Colossus and still had to boost the p/t by 3 SoFI. This is another reason I deem Elephant Stompy as unplayable, combining with the lack of disruption pieces, it yields a terrible control MU, a bad combo MU and a mediocore aggro MU.

Not really. +Urborg, Possibly Mox Diamond. We have Llanowar Wastes, Bayou, Overgrown TOmb... even 5c or Filter lands.. If you wanted.. there is also Land Grant. Plus if you run Wood Elves.. ta-dah!

It is just an idea... But if you ran P.Deed, you could look into Unmask or other things that are splashable
Leaving the splashability aside, the introducing of Deeds has significant antisynergy with CotH, CotV, Chrome Mox, Garruck, which build up a good proportion of the current list.
As the seemingly developed list is far from competitive, I do appreciate your suggestions. There could be some viable routes, but I highly doubt the deck would immensely improve without reshaping its current ideology.

// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)
// NAME: SGD

// Lands
3 [US] Gaea's Cradle
4 [MM] Rishadan Port
4 [TE] Wasteland
12 [SHM] Forest (1)

// Creatures
4 [SH] Wall of Blossoms
4 [10E] Troll Ascetic
3 [BOK] Iwamori of the Open Fist
4 [DM] Fyndhorn Elves
4 [EVG] Llanowar Elves
4 [FD] Eternal Witness

// Spells
3 [MR] Chalice of the Void
2 [DS] Sword of Fire and Ice
3 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
2 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [TSB] Call of the Herd

Interesting, but why would we bother and discuss a pre-Futuresight list?

Eseph

09-29-2008, 02:28 PM

I've been having decent luck with something that looks a little like:

Lands:
4x Ancient Tomb
4x City of Traitors
10x Forest

Creatures:
4x Elvish Spirit Guide
4x Spawnwrithe
4x Chameleon Colossus
4x Garruk Wildspeaker
3x Briarhorn
2x Ravenous Baloth

The Rest:
4x Chrome Mox
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Trinisphere
2x Umezawa's Jitte
3x Sword of Fire and Ice
4x Call of the Herd

It works well enough, but I find the disruption to be a bit Lack-luster. I was wondering if anyone has tried Tanglewire in here. I know we can't get away with a full Stax shell, but the wire looks like it might just play into our strengths. And it does funny things with Spawnwrithe...

Kuma

09-29-2008, 03:09 PM

Maybe you're right. Maybe the way to approach this deck is a Stax shell. We need more disruption in the form of land destruction, prison cards, or something.

Maybe:

4x Ancient Tomb
4x City of Traitors
10x Forest
4x Wasteland

4x ESG
4x Spawnwrithe
2x Chameleon Colossus
4x Garruk
3x Briarhorn
4x Tarmogoyf
3x Call of the Herd

4x Chalice of the Void
4x Chrome Mox
2x Umezawa's Jitte
4x Ice Storm

Or:

4x Ancient Tomb
4x City of Traitors
10x Forest

4x ESG
4x Spawnwrithe
2x Chameleon Colossus
4x Garruk
3x Briarhorn
4x Tarmogoyf
3x Call of the Herd

4x Chalice of the Void
4x Chrome Mox
2x Umezawa's Jitte
4x Trinisphere
4x Tangle Wire

Watcher487

09-29-2008, 07:04 PM

It works well enough, but I find the disruption to be a bit Lack-luster. I was wondering if anyone has tried Tanglewire in here. I know we can't get away with a full Stax shell, but the wire looks like it might just play into our strengths. And it does funny things with Spawnwrithe...

Why can't we get a full staxx shell into the deck? Yeah this is Aggro but is some of you guys are interested in more disruption why not add the Smokestacks, Tangles and Wastes?

Personally, the only disruption I currently use is Chalice MD, w/ Trini in the board. All my version does is stockpile the critters w/ 6 equips and Briarhorns as pumps.

Kuma

09-29-2008, 07:15 PM

Why can't we get a full staxx shell into the deck? Yeah this is Aggro but is some of you guys are interested in more disruption why not add the Smokestacks, Tangles and Wastes?

We'd need at least Smokestacks and Crucibles. I'm looking at the deck as Aggro/Prison, and if we cut too many more creatures we aren't going to have much of an aggro strategy. We only have two cards that abuse Smokestacks, Garruk and Spawnwrithe, and if we have copies of the latter, Smokestack seems like "win more". We'd have to add Imperious Perfects or something, a card I'm not a fan of here because it's slow and it creates even more tokens to be eaten by Explosives at 0. Some days I think Elephant Stompy should be called Token Stompy or Dies to EE and Deed Stompy.

It's definitely worth a try, maybe cut Colossus and a Trinisphere for three.

Maybe we're just better off playing Green Stax. Or Armageddon Stax. Or Dragon Stompy. I'm not sure what this matches up against that those decks don't have better matchups against.

gnat

09-30-2008, 06:02 AM

just a minor remark: garruk isn't a creature. sorry for spoiling all the fun!

Eseph

09-30-2008, 08:38 AM

Yeah, yeah. But in terms of building lists it's easier to lump him in with the rest of em.

As for a full stax shell I don't think we can pull it off with the sheer amount of GG costs we have floating around. At 6 Forest, 4x Wasteland, 4x City, 4x Tomb. We aren't going to be dropping much green. Even with 4x Mox, and 4x ESG. Plus Smokestack isn't the best play in here anyways (I don't think). It would only really work well if we were already gunning for cards like Derranged Hermit. And weren't really trying to win all that quickly.

Happy Gilmore

09-30-2008, 01:44 PM

nitewolf9

09-30-2008, 02:54 PM

In testing this deck had it all against most of the archetypes, more consitency than the other artifact agro decks. The one thing it lacked was the ability to win against control decks like landstill. I am still not too sure about how to fix this. Krosan Grip doesn't solve the problem, it has more to do with not having a moon effect.

What about running 4 chokes in the board along with something like ankh of mishra? Seems like that combination would be a beating for landstill to deal with.

georgjorge

09-30-2008, 03:52 PM

One idea I had for this deck was: Natural Order, with probably a singleton of each Simic Sky Swallower and Hellkite Overlord. Hear me out: it functions a bit like Equipment in that it's useless without a creature. But where with Jitte, you equip a creature (which usually dies in combat), then play a second one, equip, and start dominating the board, with Natural Order you just get a 8/8 haste flyer and beat your opponent two or three times with it. It dies to Swords, but that's the only thing it dies to - nothing else that is widely played. If your opponent IS playing Swords, chances are his deck is not aggro, and you can beat him with the Swallower.

Of course, what Jitte has going for it is that it's one the few cards you can drop on turn one with a Tomb. I'm not saying you need to replace Jitte with this, anyway, just that it seems to be at least as good at making use of a creature.

It would also give Elephant Stompy something the other decks are missing - DS has superb disruption, Faerie Stompy has Force, but none of them has a 8/8 flying trampler :smile:

rufus

09-30-2008, 05:06 PM

How about Tsabo's Web or Heartwood Storyteller?

There are a couple of other potentially interesting Natural Order targets like Regal Force or Woodfall Primus.

georgjorge

09-30-2008, 05:40 PM

Yea, that's the other bonus...especially against combo, where beaters don't suffice, I'm sure there are creatures to fetch that stop the opponent dead (like Gaddock, only bigger :wink: ).

Watcher487

10-08-2008, 06:21 AM

Here's my current list. There are a few variable slots as of right now. Please note here that I run a very very light disruption and pump heavy list for a few reasons.

Less disruption usually makes for a faster deck. The more pump is to handle other aggro decks better.

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
10 Forest
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Chrome Mox

4 Chalice of the Void

4 Sword of Fire and Ice
2 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Briarhorn
2 Stonewood Invocation

3 Call of the Heard
4 Garruk Wildspeaker
2 Ravenous Baloth
4 Spawnwrithe
2 Timbermare

2 Natural Order (test slot)
1 Hellkite Overlord (test slot)
1 Woodfall Primus (test slot)

Currently the test slots have bounced between the Natural Order version and running the 4th Call, Briarhorn and 2 Primal Commands. The pump is in the deck to help Spawnwrithe, and create bad situations. Timbermare is a finisher.

raharu

10-10-2008, 03:44 PM

Not to be random, but I figured that you guys would like to have Gift of the Gargantuan (http://magiccards.info/ala/en/132.html) brought to your attention, considering as you like lands and creatures, and have it has been mentioned that A) the forest count is (or was) a bit lower than you'd like it to be, and B) Card advantage is a good thing. While I like Krosan Tusker's versatility a bit more, as it grabs a basic for sure, and beats if you don't need the land drop or the card. While it might prove to be win more since it can't grab disruption, it's something worth looking at, in the least.

Happy Gilmore

10-10-2008, 04:32 PM

Timbermare sounds good, but I wouldn't cut Goyf or Briarhorn from this deck. Both are stellar.

morgan_coke

10-10-2008, 06:08 PM

If you need a moon effect type thingy, what about Primal Order? It should be pretty brutal vs. landstill etc. Winter Orb is also available and plays nicely with Moxen and 2 mana lands.

1maarten1

10-30-2008, 01:00 PM

Could anyone give me some matchup analyses? :cool:
How does this deck perform against the rock/aggro/control loam and aggro decks??
thanks :laugh:

~Maarten

Joon

10-31-2008, 09:30 AM

Rock is bad news if it play Deed (what it usually does). Deed screws you. Only Garruk remains. Against Rock you should not overextend (to keep some critters in Hand after Deed wiped the board). Usually Garruk + random critter forces them to blow up Deed and then you just replay a threat or start producing Tokens with Garruk. If Garruk gets vindicated...you've got a problem :tongue:

Against nearly all Loamvariants Chalice @ 2 should buy you enough time to beat him to death as his only out to this are usually 2-3 EE which they have to find first. If you get a Chalice @ 0 too he has lost (PREboard, POSTboard you'll face grips and maybe he goes for Wish --> Shattering Spree before you get Chalice online).

Aggro is good if you get a 3sphere or a Chalice online. If you don't have one the Burn of Goyf Sligh can be annoying, Briarhorn can make Cardadvantage here. Any Equipment is pretty good here as Jitte/Warhammer/SoLaS give you life (always good against aggro) and SoFaI kills their pesky guys like Lavamancer/Confidant and so on. SoFaI protects also from all kinds of Burn.

1maarten1

10-31-2008, 09:45 AM

Ok thanks :) are many people playing this? Does it have potential against other top decks in the meta?

~Maarten

georgjorge

10-31-2008, 10:05 AM

Against nearly all Loamvariants Chalice @ 2 should buy you enough time to beat him to death as his only out to this are usually 2-3 EE which they have to find first. If you get a Chalice @ 0 too he has lost (PREboard, POSTboard you'll face grips and maybe he goes for Wish --> Shattering Spree before you get Chalice online).

This is overly optimistic. First, getting to four mana for Chalice is not always possible by using nonbasic lands against Wastelands. Second, if you get Chalice @2 and Chalice @0 (the one at zero is not relevant unless played in the first turn, and two Chalices are not very likely anyway), his "outs" besides Explosives are also dropping a 9/9 Terravore or a soon-to-be-9/9-and-bigger Crusher and beating with them.

Kuma

10-31-2008, 10:13 AM

I don't have problems getting to four mana vs. Loam. The real issue is whether or not it's worth holding onto the Chalice that long.

I haven't been working on this deck much. While we have good aggro and aggro control matchups, we have a near auto-loss to Landstill/ITF. Aggro Loam, Combo, and any deck running Deed/EE are serious problems as well. There just aren't enough reasons to run this over Faerie Stompy or Dragon Stompy.

Maveric78f

10-31-2008, 10:14 AM

My updated list. It remains a subpar deck, because it's not consistent enough.

// Lands
10 [5E] Forest (1)
4 [EX] City of Traitors
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb

// Creatures 22
4 [LRW] Garruk Wildspeaker
3 [LRW] Briarhorn
4 [LRW] Imperious Perfect
4 [SHM] Spawnwrithe
3 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [AL] Elvish Spirit Guide

// Spells 20
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
4 [DS] Trinisphere
4 [UL] Smokestack
4 [TSB] Call of the Herd
4 [MR] Chrome Mox

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [DIS] Loaming Shaman
SB: 3 [EVE] Wicker-Bough Elder
SB: 3 [TE] Choke
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt

Mordel

11-05-2008, 05:28 AM

At a glance, your list actually looks more consistant than other tomb aggro variants. When you say consistant, where is it falling short? This deck started to intrigue me immediately so I am pretty curious. I haven't really seen any reports and the deck looks like it can end a game pretty fast. What gives?

Maveric78f

11-05-2008, 05:48 AM

Well, the best is that you test it yourself. Maybe the aggro-chalice hating MWS-shuffler was the reason why I gave up the deck. Maybe I was missing 1 or 2 lands. I don't know.

puppektion

11-17-2008, 02:31 AM

Just so you know, I believe this will be my first post on The Source... Please don't eat me alive ;)
So... I've been playing around with this deck ever since I first saw Spawnwrithe... Here's what i've been working with most recently:

// Mana
10 Forest
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Chrome Mox
3 Wall of Roots

// Threats
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Spawnwrithe
4 Call of the Herd
4 Hystrodon
2 Iwamori of the Open Fist

// Everything Else
4 Trinisphere
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Plow Under

// Sideboard
4 City of Solitude
4 Choke
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Plow Under
4 Krosan Grip

I know some of these slots seem a little off, but hear me out:

Wall of roots is one of the hardest cards to justify in the deck, but I had to play through the goblin wave, and there's no way i'm going to be letting a turn 1 Lackey hit me

Iwamori: I used to play Ravenous Baloth until i found it to be the weak link in the deck. Iwamori is bigger, Trample-ier, and basically without a drawback (3 possible exceptions: Erayo, Mangara, Kiki-Jiki)

Hystrodon is big, scary, and card advantage in green. The morph is nice, and for the most part, usually draws me at least one card (or is one helluva lightning rod). He's kinda like Spawnwrithe: Deal with him or it gets out of hand.

Plow under actually gives my deck amazing game against most decks. It slows them down 2 turns, giving me more time to either draw with the hystrodon or duplicate with the spawnwrithe.

That's my list... What do you all think?

tsabo_tavoc

11-30-2008, 02:28 PM

There has been a discussion on Trinisphere in Dragon Stompy. After some testings, I believe the right number of Trinispheres in Elephant Stompy is 4 Maindeck.

Elephant Stompy, an amazingly explosive and consistent deck when goldfished, has presently only 4 MD disruptions. Trinisphere could work here because the deck owns cards like Spawnwrithe, Garruk and Jitte, which creates card advantage but can get hosed effectively by cheap spells such as FOW, Daze, STP, Thoughtseize, Snuff out accompanied by a creature named Tarmogoyf.

What a Trinisphere brings is firstly slowing you down by 1 turn. If it gets countered, other threats are saved; if not, it becomes a threat. Turn 1 Trinisphere leaves 2 Spawnwrithes and a threat to be solved, while one played in turn 2 assures the landing of 1 threat. A later drawn Trinisphere is not a waste at all as its effects lasts at least until turn 6 when STP+Goyf, Brainstorm+FOW can see play, and longer if your opponent is stalled on 5- lands.

As an extra point, Trinisphere also serves for trimming the curve, since Spawnwrithes and Elephants are the only 3cc threats. Its inability to imprinting on Mox is not that crucial: The deck can support 3 Swords of F&Is, why not 4 Trinispheres in their places? Although it can still not solve the mass removal problem, it could prove its merits in the generally tempo-oriented Legacy metagame.

Hystrodon is big, scary, and card advantage in green. The morph is nice, and for the most part, usually draws me at least one card (or is one helluva lightning rod). He's kinda like Spawnwrithe: Deal with him or it gets out of hand.

Hystrodon is way too costly on a medium body and the drawing is conditional. I would play Hungry Spriggan over it.

puppektion

12-01-2008, 10:43 PM

I don't like Hungry Spriggan... Yeah, the fact that its a 4/4 trampler while attacking is nice, but I do disagree with your coment on Hystrodon. He never seems to be too costly (he does have morph) and the card advantage is too good to pass up.

However, Tsabo, I will completely agree with your coments about the trinisphere. It needs to be main deck. Dragon stompy has a little difficulty fitting it in, but they already have the moon effects. Being in green, we haven't been blessed with that luck (damn you R&D for not colorshifting Blood Moon to green in PC). Trinisphere hurts so many decks so badly, it's kinda a good idea to keep it in there.

tsabo_tavoc

12-02-2008, 06:43 AM

I don't like Hungry Spriggan... Yeah, the fact that its a 4/4 trampler while attacking is nice, but I do disagree with your coment on Hystrodon. He never seems to be too costly (he does have morph) and the card advantage is too good to pass up.

I don't like Spriggan either, but dislike Hystrodon more.
1. The morph ability will cost you 2 turns against a removal, the exact reason we see no Echo creatures in the list.
2. The card draw is very unreliable, on a 3/4 body which only begins to function on turn 4 (unmorph cost and Briarhorn cannot be played on the same turn).
3. I just noticed your list did not include Garruk which provides more card advantage in a mana economical way.

puppektion

12-02-2008, 10:45 AM

Well, to be fair, my list is unconventional in a lot of ways by this thread's standards... However, I have been noticing that my particular build does incredibly well in the mirror match, as well as against any other chalice stommpy (i believe pre-board, my Dragon Stompy matchup is 70% in my favor).

I run neither briarhorn nor Garruk, originally because I didn't have access to the cards (This is my deck in real life). But as I continue to see it in workstation, I feel like Briarhorn and Garruk are there to assist Spawnwrithe getting the damage through, which I don't like. If I wanted to bank on one creature dealing damage to the face, I'd be plaing goblins ;)

But seriously, I love Garruk, and I feel as though he could be good, but currently with my build, he's not. Hystrodon was originally added in the days that I was running Ravenous Baloth, but through testing, I ended up removing the baloth and Hystrodon made the cut. I'm honestly not sure what else to say at the moment...

rufus

12-02-2008, 11:14 AM

Here's what i've been working with most recently:

...
3 Wall of Roots

It seems like Tinder Wall is likely to be better in many ways since it can give you a bigger boost and act on the same turn it's played.

4 Hystrodon

Garruk and Briarhorn are quite popular with the other lists. I think I'd rather play something like Chameleon Colossus or Canker Abomination which is a direct threat.

2 Plow Under

It seems like you'd be better of with something that acts directly on play like Thorn of Amethyst, another beater like Argothian Worm, a utility spell like Primal Command, or even Stunted Growth.

puppektion

12-02-2008, 02:07 PM

Tinder wall is anti-synergistic with Chalice of the Void, which is too good to cut.
I avoid Chameleon Colossus because it is quite mana-intensive... As for Canker Abomination, its just not all that great.

I honestly don't know how to respond to your suggestions of Thorn and Wurm in a way that wouldn't get me a nice big warning from the moderators. I had considered Stunted growth, but it seems by the time it would be cast, it would be less than all that great. Late game, almost all decks are going to have at least 2 lands in play, but not all decks are going to have cards in hand (i know a lot of decks that go to topdeck mode...) Primal command is a thought, but I'm not sold on it.

About 95% of the time I see a plow under, I win the game.

evilfred

01-13-2009, 09:31 AM

Ok here's my list.

Lands
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
10 [B] Forest (2)
4 [EX] City of Traitors

Creatures
3 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [MOR] Chameleon Colossus
4 [LRW] Garruk Wildspeaker
4 [SHM] Spawnwrithe
4 [AL] Elvish Spirit Guide
2 [EVE] Canker Abomination

Spells
4 [NE] Tangle Wire
3 [DS] Trinisphere
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
3 [OD] Call of the Herd
3 [LRW] Primal Command

Sideboard
3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
3 [TE] Choke
3 [SOK] Pithing Needle
3 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
3 [MM] Rushwood Legate

Let me explane some of my choice:

The basic Prison structure stays cause it fit the deck perfectly.

Garruk Wildspeaker is a must I think as I use it for mana accel, tokens and the overrun effect.

Canker Abomination is good but you must play it in the first couple turns if you want it to perform. I've put only 2 in here for that reason.

Primal Command come in as a tool spell for games that start to drag a little.

I'll bring this deck to a tourny soon. I'll let you know what happened!

rufus

01-13-2009, 09:50 AM

Tangle Wire seems like a very odd choice for a deck like this. Is there a particular reason that motivated it?

evilfred

01-13-2009, 12:22 PM

Tangled Wire is very useful to tap everything (or almost) your opponent control. This done, it's very easy to bring your big creatures up your opponent nose.

When you play Tangled Wire at first, it got 4 fading counters so your opponent got no choice but to tap 4 permanents. On your turn, you remove 1 fading counter and tap 3 of your permanents. (Tap Tangled Wire + 2 other things)

In my testing, the wires were very good most of the time. They can be sideboarded for something else if they don't work.

*EDIT*
I'm going to try instead a list with: -1 Garruk, -2 Canker and +3 Fyndhorn Elder.
The Fyndhorn Elder should help me fixing some mana problems and help with Chameleon Colossus +X/+X ability.

Roman Candle

01-14-2009, 11:02 PM

Just screwing around on MWS, I came up with this list:

4 Spawnwrithe
4 Manaplasm
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Briarhorn
3 Rushwood Legate

3 Garruk Wildspeaker

3 Harmonize
4 Chalice
4 Call of the Herd
2 Umezawa's Jitte

4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Chrome Mox
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
8 Forest

Basically, I decided to forgo disruption in favor of more explosiveness. Manaplasm can be silly early, especially alongside Briarhorn and Rushwood Legate, and Garruk for mana acceleration. Legate might seem a little strange, but the chances of her not being free are pretty small... and even if she isn't free, the deck can easily hardcast her (although it doesn't really want to). No board yet, but Chokes will definitely be in there somewhere, alongside probably Grips. I'm not sure yet.

I don't know if this is necessarily better than lists with Trinisphere or Plow Under, but it can have some pretty silly starts.

puppektion

01-18-2009, 08:15 PM

My most recent went 4-2-0 and took 12th place out of 60-some people. I'll give my list first, then go through the matchups that I had to endure.

// Mana
10 Forest
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Chrome Mox
3 Wall of Roots

// Threats
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Spawnwrithe
4 Call of the Herd
4 Hystrodon
2 Iwamori of the Open Fist

// Everything Else
4 Trinisphere
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Plow Under

// Sideboard
4 City of Solitude
3 Choke
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Plow Under
3 Krosan Grip
2 Pithing Needle

Round 1: Cephalid Breakfast
Game 1, I was on the draw. He opened up with Tropical Island => go. The first thing I thought was thresh. I proceded to drop a turn 1 spawnwrithe. After hitting him once in the face with it, he drops his nomads and illusionist on turn 3 and wins that turn (Kiki-Jiki - Karmic Guide - Sky Hussar).
My sideboard was out: 2 Plow Under, 1 Iwamori. In: 1 Jitte, 2 Pithing Needle.
Unfortunately, things didn't go too well there, despite the fact that I dropped a turn 1 trinisphere game 2. He got up to 3 mana, dropped a K-Grip at the end of my turn, and proceded to kick my teeth in the next.
Record: 0-1
Points: 0

Round 2: Cephalid Breakfast.
Game followed suit as the first one did. This guy (I'm assuming based on actions and the like) came in with the guy from round 1, and gave up extra counters for AEther vial. Game 1, he turn 1-ed me. Game 2, I was able to drop an early Chalice at 1 and trinisphere, and beat him down with Spawnwrithe and a morph. Game 3 was longer, and involved him dropping an AEther vial nice and early, and me trying to get through his Illusionist with my goyfs. He ended up pulling through, however.
Record: 0-2
Points: 0

Round 3: Rw Goblins
There's nothing like dropping a turn 1 trinisphere against goblins. Plow Under bought me some more time, leading to a threat, followed by a jitte.
S.B. Out: 1 Plow Under. In: 1 Jitte.
Game 2 my opening hand was miserable. Also, white was for more than just STP main deck; He sided in Disenchant. I was wrong to assume that I'd be able to ride a turn 1 trinisphere to victory again, and was vastly overwhelmed due to the few threats that I kept in my opening hand. I scooped that game before I became too frusterated.
Game 3, I opened up with a chalice at 1, followed by a turn 2 Trinisphere and a turn 3 threat. The game was won by the two Goyfs and the Hystrodon that I landed.
Record: 2-1
Points: 3

Round 4: UB Faeries
I felt really bad about this matchup. It was over in about 10 minutes (I'm not even kidding). I opened up the first game, turn 1 chalice at 1, turn 2 chalice at 2, and then he scooped to a spawnwrithe.
SB, Out: 2 Iwamori, 2 Plow Under. In: 3 Choke, 1 Jitte
Game 2 was similar, only it involved less chalice and more Jitte.
Record: 2-2
Points 6

Round 5: Mono-B Reanimator
Going into this matchup, I was shitting bricks. The threats that he had were more scary than anything in my deck, and come out pretty quickly. Luckily, my fears were fairly unfounded. Game 1, he was on the play. He started off with a turn 1 dark rit. => Buried Alive followed up by a turn 2 animate dead. I scooped there.
Game 2, I opened up with a trinisphere, and proceded to kick his teeth in with a spawnwrithe. Dark rit. is basically worthless with 3sphere in play :D
Game 3, he played a Putrid Imp on turn 1. The details of the remainder of this game are a little hazy, but I do recall an Iwamori beating face for the win.
Record: 3-2
Points: 9

Round 6: Mono-R Burn
I saw this matchup and couldn't stop smiling. Between Chalice of the Void, Trinisphere, and Umezawa's Jitte, this matchup was a breeze.
SB: Out: 1 Plow Under In: 1 Jitte

From there, it was cut to top 8 (unfortunately, I just missed that. Fucking Breakfast)
I'm looking for suggestions to improve my Sideboard. I would like to include some form of graveyard hate, and it seems like my weakest SB slot is the City of Solitude. Any help?