[Deck Discussion] Faeries [Archive]

Aggro_zombies

06-08-2008, 04:00 PM

I was browsing through the historical Top 8 lists yesterday when I came across the following :w::u: Faeries deck:

6) Stefano Zanella - UW Faeries

4 force
4 daze
3 stifle

4 brainstorm
4 serum visions

4 stp

3 mask of memory
2 jitte

4 cloud sprite
4 spellstutter sprite
4 cloud of faeries
4 scion of oona

4 tundra
4 strand
4 delta
3 mishra's factory
3 island
1 plains

SIDE:
3 sower of temptation
1 absolute law
2 sea sprite
3 blue elementale blast
3 disenchant
3 pithing needle

It placed sixth at a 48 person tournament in Italy on March 9th (the rest of the top 8 is here (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=216565&postcount=20).)

I thought it was interesting, as Faeries are one of my favorite tribes, but my earlier looks at Faeries after Lorwyn had come out seemed to indicate that they were too slow to compete in Legacy, especially against something like Tarmogoyf out of Threshold. Looking at this list, the most striking thing is the lack of synergy between the equipment and Scion of Oona, followed by the relative weakness of the Faeries chosen (Cloud Sprite? Seriously?). My initial inclination is to say that the pilot was just a particularly strong player and was able to navigate a somewhat unimpressive deck to a top 8 finish on the back of skill alone.

...That is, until I was browsing deckcheck.net this morning and came across the following:

1 Mistbind Clique
2 Pestermite
4 Scion of Oona
4 Spellstutter Sprite
2 Vendilion Clique

3 Brainstorm
2 Counterspell
3 Daze
1 Enlightened Tutor
4 Force of Will

3 Ancestral Vision

3 Bitterblossom
2 Counterbalance

2 Chrome Mox
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Vedalken Shackles

1 Academy Ruins
3 Flooded Strand
5 Island
3 Mutavault
1 Polluted Delta
2 Tundra
4 Underground Sea

Sideboard:
2 Sower of Temptation
2 Smother
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 Leyline of the Void
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Meekstone
1 Pithing Needle
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Umezawa's Jitte

First place at a 69-person tournament in Germany, piloted by Manuel Faber (Linky (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=16703)).

This list hit me out of left field. 3 Brainstorm? 3 Daze and 2 Counterspell? 1 Leyline in the sideboard? Ancestral Visions? Aside from the rather...random numbers, it seems solid as a starting point. Perhaps if it were cleaned up a bit, it would have something going for it...

4 Spellstutter Sprite
4 Scion of Oona
3 Pestermite
2 Vendillion Clique

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Ancestral Visions
3 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Daze
4 Force

3 Counterbalance
1 Bitterblossom

4 Swords to Plowshares

4 Tundra
4 Underground Sea
3 Island
1 Plains
4 Flooded Strand
2 Mutavault / Faerie Conclave

Speculative Sideboard:
x Mistbind Clique
x Sower of Temptation
2-3 Engineered Explosives
4 Leyline of the Void
x Return to Dust

I dropped the Mistbind Clique because it seems like it would be much better against control than against anything else, which relegates it to the sideboard in my mind. Adding actual maindeck removal in the form of StP seems good as well. I kept the Visions because a draw three is pretty strong, even though the opponent can potentially plan around it...but then, so can you.

Alternately, you could cut the white altogether and just stay blue/black, although your ability to answer Counterbalance becomes compromised at that point. If you went :u::b:, you'd probably up the Bitterblossoms and run Thoughtseizes, with Smother and possibly Slaughter Pact being your removal.

So, what do people think about this? Did the two previously mentioned lists make it as far as they did through skill alone, or is there something worth investigating in the Faerie tribe? Which color or colors should you splash? White gives you powerful removal, but black gives you Bitterblossom and comparable removal; red adds reach (and Wee Dragonauts!) while green gives you Tarmogoyf.

In short: can Faeries successfully make the jump from Standard to Legacy?

Sanguine Voyeur

06-08-2008, 04:06 PM

There's something similar to these floating around New England played by GuywithbrownjacketwhomakesamockeryofLegacy. I don't know if he has an account here, but it's basicly Extended Faeries with Force of Will and Cloud of Faeries. It does moderately well, to my knowledge.

Rood

06-08-2008, 04:46 PM

raharu

06-08-2008, 04:56 PM

Willoe

06-08-2008, 05:13 PM

Personally, I'd splash both white and black, but I would only take Thoughtseize and Bitterblossom from black, and only Swords to Plowshares from white. The list you drafted looks pretty alright, but one thing glaringly stands out: wtf Pestermite? It just really doesn't look like it serves any purpose in the deck at all and might be stronger as more Bitterblossoms. Also, could the Cliques be stronger as Thoughtseizes?

I hate Faeries even more than I hate my Physics teacher (that is a lot, in fact), but I can tell you one thing:

Pestermite is fucking awesome. Seriously. Being locked out of mana of a certain color for a turn and thus prevent me from playing a certain spell will most likely mean a timewalk. Flash is very important. Tapping a creature is also very good. In fact, there's a lot of situations vey you can abuse the tap function to timewalk the opponent. You can also untap your plains to STP a goyf and then gaining tempo. I like Pestermite, and Bitterblossom might do better for a dedicated control deck in legacy. Just my 2 cents.

Jak

06-08-2008, 05:26 PM

I would love to make a Faerie deck viable just because how awesome it is. Flash is one of my favorite mechanics and it is actually on good cards like Pestermite and Sprite. Bitterblossom is also good. I would run at least 3 Jitte MD to gain some life and as solid removal. Here is my rough list.

4 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
5 Island
1 Swamp
4 Mutavault
4 Chome Mox

4 Brainstorm
3 Ancestral Visions
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Vedalken Shackles

4 Spellstutter Sprite
4 Pestermite
4 Scion of Oona
2 Mistbind Clique
3 Bitterblossom

SB
2 Sower of Temptation
3 Hydroblast
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Engineered Explosives
3 Stifle

Pulp_Fiction

06-08-2008, 05:30 PM

Nihil Credo

06-08-2008, 05:56 PM

This is what it boils down to, they are a very hyped creature type that thrives in an environment where cards like Engineered Plague, Pyroclasm and Hail Storm are not commonly played.
Hail Storm and Pyroclasm are both in Standard, btw, alongside the often-maindecked Cloudthresher.

Aggro_zombies

06-08-2008, 07:08 PM

Faeries wil never thrive in a format where Engineered Plague and Burning Wish (Pyroclasm-ish effects) is legal. Unlike Goblins, Faeries are not as aggressive and die to 1x Engineered Plague. Everyone always says "well thats what Force of Will is for", then someone could argue "thats what Thoughtseize is for" and we it would turn into a very long, drawn out, and boring argument.

This is what it boils down to, they are a very hyped creature type that thrives in an environment where cards like Engineered Plague, Pyroclasm and Hail Storm are not commonly played. They are not nearly as fast as Goblins are and are even less resiliant to hate. If you want to play Faeries run Faerie Stompy, hell you can almost buy a playset of Sea Drakes on eBay ($30.00 each) for the price of 4x Bitterblossom ($105.00 playset); that is ridiculous.
I think you're looking at it incorrectly here. One could easily make the argument that Threshold is a worse aggro deck than Goblins, and Landstill is probably one of the worst aggro decks ever conceived. Despite that, they are both strong and successful components of the metagame. That's because they aren't aggro decks. You're right that faeries are less aggressive than Goblins, and in a head-to-head matchup, an aggro build of faeries would lose most of the time to an aggro build of Goblins. The thing is, Faeries aren't aggro - they're aggro-control in every format they're played in (hell, you usually went aggro-control when you drafted the damn things). In that sense, you should really be asking, "How does this deck stack up to Threshold in terms of being an aggro-control deck? What does it do better, and what does it do worse? Does it have comparable matchups?"

Trying to compare this deck to Goblins is like trying to make an apples-to-oranges comparison. The decks work and play in totally different ways.

Shriekmaw

06-08-2008, 07:24 PM

Aggro_zombies

06-08-2008, 07:33 PM

I wonder if people have realized how broken Billterblossom is in Legacy. This card is "better" than Tarmogoyf in control style decks. Once people starting splashing black instead of green in a deck for Bitterblossom, you will see how broken the card is.

Think about some of these decks playing or splashing for bitterblossom.

Deadguy variants
Threshold w/black splash
Gearheart's (The Fear)
The Rock
Landstill w/black splash

Think about it.
I'm just leery of running Bitterblossom in a format where Engineered Explosives is the sweeper of choice, and Pernicious Deed is also available. Then again, one could say that those two in themselves are an argument for splashing :g: for Krosan Grip or for running Counterbalance (which this deck should run regardless, I think).

It has potential, but I have yet to see an application where I like it.

EDIT: Aside from this deck, I should say.

Pulp_Fiction

06-08-2008, 08:05 PM

I think you're looking at it incorrectly here. One could easily make the argument that Threshold is a worse aggro deck than Goblins, and Landstill is probably one of the worst aggro decks ever conceived. Despite that, they are both strong and successful components of the metagame. That's because they aren't aggro decks. You're right that faeries are less aggressive than Goblins, and in a head-to-head matchup, an aggro build of faeries would lose most of the time to an aggro build of Goblins. The thing is, Faeries aren't aggro - they're aggro-control in every format they're played in (hell, you usually went aggro-control when you drafted the damn things). In that sense, you should really be asking, "How does this deck stack up to Threshold in terms of being an aggro-control deck? What does it do better, and what does it do worse? Does it have comparable matchups?"

Trying to compare this deck to Goblins is like trying to make an apples-to-oranges comparison. The decks work and play in totally different ways.

I know that, Goblins is a totally different animal, but my point is Goblins is good at something. They are like a simple machine that functions the same every time, they go fast and multiply quickly. Where Faeries on the other hand are good at nothing. Thresh on the other hand has good offense and defense where as Faeries only have below average offense. Point being, why would you play a slow-aggro-control deck when you could run something better that doesn't die easily to hate cards?

@Nihil: I know Pyroclasm and Hail Storm are in standard but they aren't run because they are not nearly as good as they are in legacy because they don't have 10+ 1/1 Goblins to deal with in the early turns, rapidly multiplying Goblins, or Dark Confidant fueled suicide decks to deal with.

vanele

06-08-2008, 08:27 PM

GuywithbrownjacketwhomakesamockeryofLegacy
Sigged

Thats me, the I have not been able to play bitterblossom in this format despite the amount of power it provides.

So far Mono Blue is the way to go for me. The list I run is basically counterspells and faeries.

Faeries wil never thrive in a format where Engineered Plague and Burning Wish (Pyroclasm-ish effects) is legal. Unlike Goblins, Faeries are not as aggressive and die to 1x Engineered Plague.

By running counterspells you can normally handle the Engineered plague, and on the off chance one resolves I have been running Cryptic command as a Utility Bounce spell. This provides one of the great downside in its huge casting cost. Engineered Plague can be bounced then Cycled with a Vendillion clique. If anything the fact that Faeries can react to Pyroclasm-esq spells is an advantage over decks such as goblins.

Counterbalance I do not feel has a place in the deck because quite simply there are almost no situations in which you can tap down early in a deck like faeries to get it on the board. Part of what makes the deck run smoothly is the ability to answer any threat through counterspells but not hold back the threats. Which makes me wonder how that UW gentleman managed to play it.

There are 2 serious problems in running a deck like this, while if it lives long enough it can answer almost anything, it can die to early placed threats, and jitte.

The Only games I have lost while playing a faerie deck were one in which Jitte or a swarm got me. To stifle this I was running Annul (Sideboard) + force spike in hopes to counter the real threats to the deck such as Jitte or Engineered. Despite the fact that Daze has become the turn to spell over Spike in legacy, its tempo loss in my opinion was so much that I canned it myself. I will do some testing with the U/W list posted. Propaganda works as an answer to Artifact creatures, goblin hordes and Zombie armys.

What Manuel Faber's Top 8 looked like supports what my testing with the deck led me to believe it does well against Threshold and landstill. While i'm not sure if he faced Ichorid, My testing has shown is that is an extremely difficult matchup to win, though his Leyline/crypt probably helped in that aspect.

Nihil Credo

06-08-2008, 09:11 PM

I'm surprised the deck is getting compared to Threshold and Goblins rather than Counterslivers, which is philosophically very very close to Faeries. Basically, it boils down to:

Slivers are:
- Bigger, faster
- Cheaper, Vial-friendly mana costs
- Crystalline Sliver gives shroud to himself
- Utility from the SB (Harmonic, Darkheart)

Faeries have:
- Only 1-2 colours
- Flash
- Good CiP effects (Spellstutter, Vendilion)
- Bitterblossom
- Also SB utility (Sower of Temptation, pro-red Faeries)

raharu

06-08-2008, 10:49 PM

vanele

06-08-2008, 10:59 PM

Mistbind Clique is pretty dumb as well as far as CiP effects go (that, and it's a pretty nifty beater).

Its also about Infinite mana to use, as nice as it is as a beatstick, it is very slow and often pitched to force.

raharu

06-08-2008, 11:50 PM

Its also about Infinite mana to use, as nice as it is as a beatstick, it is very slow and often pitched to force.
4 mana =\= Infinity. That, and mistbind on the OP's turn -> something on your turn that is pretty much only voulnerable to FoW (no mana for CB) is always nifty. It's like Orim's Chant in MWC. You use it to make sure that whatever you're going to play is (with Mistbind) almost entirely sure to resolve.

vanele

06-09-2008, 12:35 AM

4 mana =\= Infinity. That, and mistbind on the OP's turn -> something on your turn that is pretty much only voulnerable to FoW (no mana for CB) is always nifty. It's like Orim's Chant in MWC. You use it to make sure that whatever you're going to play is (with Mistbind) almost entirely sure to resolve.

Its an at minimum 4 mana 2 card investment if removing a cloud of faeries, Most of the time its a 6 or 7 mana investment that could be better spent else where.

raharu

06-09-2008, 01:05 AM

Its an at minimum 4 mana 2 card investment if removing a cloud of faeries, Most of the time its a 6 or 7 mana investment that could be better spent else where.
I presume, but covering your game-winning spells is always a solid play. Covering your AVs and Blossoms couldn't be that horrible.

Hermelk

06-09-2008, 04:46 AM

I played Faber's build yesterday, in a local and quite random tournament, I'd like to know how you guys deal with "the fear"? Intuition+deed+EE+LFTL draw engine+tarmo were too much for my lil faeries :'(.

What about mind harness in sb to deal with tarmoguy?

Finn

06-09-2008, 09:14 AM

The control in Legacy is increasingly dependant on 3-4 colors.
How do you beat The Fear?
You limit your colors to 1 or 2. You play 4 Stifles in the main. You play Wasteland and/or Port. You pack atleast some form of graveyard hate.

You get a bit lucky.

Mesercus

06-09-2008, 09:55 AM

I would try a couple of Sprite Noble in this deck.
For 3 mana it's a 2/2 flying that pump +0/+1 other fliers (all the faeries except mutavault) and with bitterblossom in play is amazing cause you tap it and pump all the 1/1 tokens :P. And nice tricks with pestermite cause you untap and tap it again for a double pump^

Illissius

06-09-2008, 11:49 AM

As with Merfolk, another blue based tribal aggro control deck, there's many directions you can take the deck and its manabase:

- Multicolor
- Mutavault
- Wasteland + Stifle
- Back to Basics

Or some combination of the above, though Back to Basics doesn't play well with the rest.

Also, I haven't seen any mention of Cabal Therapy. It goes very well with Bitterblossom, Spellstutter Sprite, and Vendilion Clique.

Aggro_zombies

06-09-2008, 01:46 PM

Also, I haven't seen any mention of Cabal Therapy. It goes very well with Bitterblossom, Spellstutter Sprite, and Vendilion Clique.
I had thought about this - having a discard suite of 4 thoughtseize, 4 Therapy - but my objection to that was that it felt very redundant with the permission, and Thoughtseize is rather much to be running on top of Bitterblossom. Of course, I was also thinking of Dark Confidant at the time, so...it seems like the deck could either end up going Counterbalance-permission, or light permission plus disruption, but I'm not sure what the relative merits are of the second one, except maybe being faster against combo than Counterbalance.

As for the mana, I'm not enamored with Mutavault, simply because all of the deck's other creatures have evasion, so Mutavault is going to routinely getting beaten up on the ground. Multicolor is obvious because the deck really wants access to Bitterblossom and black removal, but as for Wasteland and Stifle...I'm not really sure a Legacy faeries deck could play a very good tempo game when compared to, say, Thrash or a tempo-oriented Threshold build. I have, however, been wondering if splashing green wouldn't be interesting - for Grip at the very least, but potentially running Tarmogoyf or sideboard Deed seems hot too. Running green gives you access to Life from the Loam for Wastelock, but that seems more cute than practical.

At this point my biggest question mark is: how much aggro, and how much control? At the very least you're running 4 Spellstutter Sprite, 4 Scion of Oona, and anything after that is optional...though you really want to run 12 or so Faeries for Spellstutter (though this is less important in Legacy than Standard because of Legacy's low curve). Given this, should the deck tend more towards a balance like Thresh, or err on the side of control...something like Landstill but with guys? Running Meditate along with Mistbind Clique seems downright evil, especially if you've got Propaganda or something.

Just a few thoughts. I'll post more later, along with a starting point list for testing, once I get off work.

EDIT: Btw, Illissius, the quote in your sig is fucking hilarious.

Aggro_zombies

06-14-2008, 01:01 AM

Sorry for the double post, but I wanted to bump this a bit since I've been thinking about it recently. I've come up with two approaches to the deck that take the basic Faeries shell in different directions: Fae Thresh and Faestill.

"Fae Thresh"
4 Spellstutter Sprite
4 Scion of Oona
3 Pestermite
2 Vendillion Clique

3 Bitterblossom

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Daze
3 Counterbalance
4 Force of Will

4 Smother

4 Underground Sea
3 Watery Grave
3 Tropical Island
3 Island
1 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta

I decided to go for the Tropical Islands to leave the option for sideboard Krosan Grips open (and for EE at three). Basically, you're playing Threshold with different creatures and a much greater control bent thanks to Spellstutter. If able to stabilize early, the deck can provide savage beatings from Bitterblossom and the two- and three-power faeries it runs.

The alternative build, and the one I like more, is Faestill:

4 Spellstutter Sprite
4 Scion of Oona

2 Bitterblossom

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Standstill
2 Cunning Wish

4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will

4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Engineered Explosives

4 Underground Sea
4 Tundra
3 Island
1 Plains
1 Swamp
3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
2 Faerie Conclave
1 Tolaria West
1 Academy Ruins

Wishboard:
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Slaughter Pact
1 Pulse of the Fields
1 Extirpate
1 Dismantling Blow

You run a lighter Faerie contingent here but make up for it with superior draw power and control capabilities. As I said, I like this concept a lot but need to fiddle more with the numbers. More board control is probably in order (in the form of additional EE, but Wrath or Damnation are options as well), and I'd like to fit Crucible of Worlds in there somehow. A third Cunning Wish would be nice (I personally favor the Wish builds of Landstill). A singleton Volrath's Stronghold couldn't hurt too much given the high stability of the current mana base, and it would allow you to use sweepers with impunity or to recycle downed threats.

Thoughts? I will be begin testing some variation of the second list in the next week or two.

Vetinari

06-14-2008, 06:41 AM

Wouldn't some discard (either Cabal Therapy or Thoughtseize) be a good fit for Fea Thresh?

Aggro_zombies

06-14-2008, 02:35 PM

Wouldn't some discard (either Cabal Therapy or Thoughtseize) be a good fit for Fea Thresh?
I thought about that, but it felt really redundant with the deck's counters, and I wasn't sure how to fit it in given the space constraints. Also, there's the fact that, with the exception of Top, Counterbalance, and Bitterblossom, everything you run is an instant or has flash. Since the previous three spells are pretty game defining (well, not so much Top, but it enables CB, so...), I don't really mind tapping mana down on my turn to play them. I am slightly leery of tapping down for discard any time after the first turn, though - and that doesn't take into account that discard's worth drops over time as your opponent empties out his or her hand and moves closer to topdeck mode.

I should also say that Thoughtseize is probably better than Therapy here in most cases (if you're only running four discard pieces, your first Therapy will almost always be blind). That said, I really don't want to run 4 Thoughtseize on top of fetchlands and Bitterblossoms, as the life loss really adds up. I can see Therapy having better long-term value because of the relative ease with which you can sacrifice faeries to flash it back, but I'm also concerned about throwing creatures out the window in a deck with a far less impressive army (on an individual level, anyway) than Threshold. Maybe in matchups where you're not trying to race, but...

Vetinari

06-15-2008, 09:03 AM

I've been toying with a more aggressive build eschewing Countertop for more beaters and mana-denial:

4 Spellstutter Sprite
4 Scion of Oona
3 Vendilion Clique
4 Oona's Prowler
4 Pestermite

3 Bitterblossom

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Force of Will
4 Cabal Therapy

3 Chrome Mox

4 Island
1 Swamp
3 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
1 Volrath's Stronghold
4 Wasteland

What little testing I have done so far, it has been very solid. I went 6-4 against UBg Thresh, 5-5 against Dragon Stompy and 3-7 against TES. All pre-board games obviously. I expect having countertop package in the SB along with additional discard and maybe some Extirpates would improve the combo matchup to a level comparable with Thresh.

Willoe

06-15-2008, 09:16 AM

4 Spellstutter Sprite
4 Scion of Oona
3 Vendilion Clique
4 Oona's Prowler
4 Pestermite

3 Bitterblossom

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Force of Will
4 Cabal Therapy

3 Chrome Mox

4 Island
1 Swamp
3 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
1 Volrath's Stronghold
4 Wasteland

Looks solid. Like tempo thresh, you're investing in tempo cards. Try adding stifle in the mainboard. That simply rocks, also against combo. They can wait until they get orim's chant, so that should be your first priority when therapying. Also because if you strip them for orim's chant, they can't combo safely. The power of spellstutter seems rather underwhelming. He's nutz in the mid-game, but you do want some early dudes or some early-game disruption to race various decks or simply to get a beater down before they get theirs to win the tempo race. So far, here's what I'd alter:

-4 Spellstutter Sprite

+4 Stifle

I don't like the CounterTop engine in tribal decks because you need more creatures to make them good. Thresh wins often with just one mongoose in my experience. You often can't do that (no offense). Therefore, a possible boarding plan could be like you say yourself:

3 Counterbalance
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Hydroblast
4 Thoughtseize

Or something like that. Good luck with the Faeries :D

Aggro_zombies

06-15-2008, 05:01 PM

Looks solid. Like tempo thresh, you're investing in tempo cards. Try adding stifle in the mainboard. That simply rocks, also against combo. They can wait until they get orim's chant, so that should be your first priority when therapying. Also because if you strip them for orim's chant, they can't combo safely. The power of spellstutter seems rather underwhelming. He's nutz in the mid-game, but you do want some early dudes or some early-game disruption to race various decks or simply to get a beater down before they get theirs to win the tempo race. So far, here's what I'd alter:

-4 Spellstutter Sprite

+4 Stifle

I don't like the CounterTop engine in tribal decks because you need more creatures to make them good. Thresh wins often with just one mongoose in my experience. You often can't do that (no offense). Therefore, a possible boarding plan could be like you say yourself:

3 Counterbalance
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Hydroblast
4 Thoughtseize

Or something like that. Good luck with the Faeries :D
I'm not entirely sure I agree with some of this. Spellstutter Sprite is a tempo card and a threat - not unlike Man-o-war was back in the day. If I had to cut anything out of his list for Stifle, I'd probably take the Cliques and a Pestermite or the Cliques and a Mox. Without Spellstutter, he's running only four counters and four discard spells, which means decks with any sort of early-game denial will be able to walk all over him (i.e., Thresh - if the opponent manages to resolve a Counterbalance, it's Game Over).

Vetinari

06-15-2008, 05:28 PM

Cliques are probably the weakest card (the fact they cost UU, doesn't help their case). Pestermite is excellent mana-denial. Think Port in Gobilns but with more synergy.

If you play carefully, Counterbalance is an insurmountable problem. With so many of your creatures having flash they can never tap out, slowing the game to a crawl. This allows you to wait for a 3cc faerie which they often time have trouble countering with Counterbalance. If said faerie is a Pestermite you can often force something through on your turn as well. In retrospective some man-lands wouldn't go amiss though.

thefreakaccident

06-16-2008, 01:41 AM

I think a good spot to start from, if trying to port this deck to legacy is Wafo-Tapa's faerie deck that T'8ed GP Vienna:

(note: this is an extended build, will show how I will alter it later)

creatures//11
2 Mistbind Clique
4 Spellstutter Sprite
4 Vendilion Clique
1 Venser, Shaper Savant

instants//14
4 Counterspell
4 Cryptic Command
2 Force Spike
4 Spell Snare

sorceries//4
4 Ancestral Vision

enchantments//2
2 Threads of Disloyalty

artifacts//5
2 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Vedalken Shackles

lands//24
15 Island
4 Mutavault
2 Riptide Laboratory
2 Snow-Covered Island
1 Tolaria West

Sideboard//
3 Sower of Temptation
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
3 Annul
2 Deep Analysis
2 Threads of Disloyalty
4 Tormod's Crypt

Obvious cuts from the MD:

2 Force spike
4 cryptic command
2 threads of disloyalty
4 vendillion clique
2 umezawa's jitte
1 venser, shaper savent

In their stead I would run:
4 force of will
4 brainstorm
3 repeal
4 scion of Oona
--------------------------

Making the list:

creatures//12
4 scion of Oona
2 Mistbind Clique
4 Spellstutter Sprite
2 pestermite

spells//26
4 force of will
4 brainstorm
3 vedalken shackles
3 repeal
4 counterspell
4 spell snare
4 ancestral visions

lands//22
10 island
3 polluted delta
3 flooded strand
4 mutavault
2 faerie conclave

sideboard// (undecided)

I'll also go into a breakdown for the cards selected:

You only run 2 non-instant speed spells: visions & shackles

Visions is good enough to warrent its' inclusion, as this is a tempo based deck, and you will always get at least one of these suckers to resolve.

I opted for CS over daze, because with this deck, you will never tap out on your turn, unlike threshold, therefore, you will have the mana open...

You run a total of: 16 coutermagic cards including sprite, CB is unneeded, you will waste necessary mana that you could be using to play threats/answers... sure it is the 1 card answer to everything, but it is too mana intensive if you want to be running this deck, you would rather do other things.

You technically run 18 faeries, making the Oona very powerful, and if you use it right, you can play lots of battle tricks and as pseudo countermagic/ misdirection (response to removal)....

Pestermite is awesome, tapping out vital mana for mana light decks, screwing over people who are mana screwed, and even tapping out possible attackers/blockers.

Mistbind clique is a solid tempo card against most everything in this format (except maybe ichorid), as you can (on the upkeep) tapp down their lands, basically leaving you with a timewalk... he is also pretty good when thy try to swords a dude, removing their target and getting a 4/4 is nice I hear :).

Spellstutter sprite is amazing, as he counters most things in the current format (most decks opt for 1-3 cc things for the most part)... making him very potent.

The only spell I think I need to explain is repeal, so i'll do just that:

It is a one card answer to any and all permanents, much like vindicate and co.

It is also very powerful as it is card advantage, replacing itself and 'bouncing' a nasty permanent... it can get you out of CB lock (although CB would probably not resolve in the first place), gets rid of goyf, vial, lackey on the play, dreadnought (hilarious to do)... and any non-shroud low cc permanent you can think of... excellent.

Nihil Credo

06-16-2008, 07:25 AM

The Vendilion -> Scion switch doesn't seem too obvious to me. Why would the latter card be better in Legacy, or the former worse? With just 18 Faeries, and without Bitterblossom, I figure that the +2 power of the Clique will not be much worse than the pump effect of Scion, and the disruption ability is remarkable.

thefreakaccident

06-17-2008, 07:32 AM

The scion allows for battle tricks, making a clock much quicker than it may appear... it also has that shroud clause, that makes them play two swords to hit the critter they want... It is also better for the late game, as against some decks that may be low on cards in hand, you may just be providing card filtering service for them...

And no one wants to service their opponent for free.

Vetinari

06-17-2008, 08:58 AM

Using Vendilion on yourself is often a strong play.

Mirrislegend

06-17-2008, 10:20 AM

Am I the only one who sorely sorely misses having a consistent and quality turn one play? I thought that was one of the founding principles of Legacy: do awesome stuff and do it early.

Shriekmaw

06-19-2008, 01:00 PM

Mental

06-19-2008, 01:21 PM

The one thing I don't understand is how you can build a faeries deck without Bitterblossom? This is like saying I'm going to play Threshold without Tarmogoyf. I think the builds look decent from what I've seen so far, but Bitterblossom really needs to be included. This is the one card that put faeries over the top in all the other formats. Probably one of the best cards you can include.

Let me know about your reasons for not including Bitterblossom.

I have to agree. If you look at the power levels of the Faeries being included (Pestermite? Decent. Spellstutter Sprite? Also decent) and compare them to that of Bitterblossom (through the roof), I see no reason why you aren't MDing 4 Bitterblossoms, especially because you aren't even suffering from Thoughtseize lifeloss also.

@Vetinari - The problem with playing Cabal Therapy and Stifle in the same deck is that on Turn 1 you'll want to keep mana open for Stifle, which will lose you the opportunity to Therapy. That's just plain crappy...but Chrome Mox might fix it a bit.

@Aggro_Zombies - Wydwen SB would be hot. You've already got them foil ;)

thefreakaccident

06-21-2008, 02:43 PM

So... I have been testing that original list that I had put together earlier in this thread, and I have a few issues/concerns with the cards, but also some good news/whatever you may call it....

The deck was based around a MUC shell, however, incorperated within its' disruption package were some neatly packed faeries that allowed you to retain the beats, play threats at your opponents EOT, and supplement what would have been lost control slots...

I have had decent success with the deck demolishing combo (shouldn't you with 12 countermagic and threats anyways?)... I was also able to go positive against threshold, the LS and Goblin MUs were a little luckluster however...

I found that game one (Goblins MU) revolved around shackles a lot (duh!), when I got that to stick, I generally won, but without it they would simply out agro faeries and it would simply go to game 2 , game 2-3 got much better with the inclusion of propagandas and BEB effects, which gave the deck good spot removal, and propaganda slowed the little buggers down to an extreme (they attack with 2 crits now, you can flash a blocker into play/tap their lands on upkeep/tap an attacker/bounce a threat all in response...) Needless to say G2 was generally in your favor as you had more hosers and BEBs to supplement.... I just hate having a really draw dependant game against the green buggers game one.

Landstill was a really interesting deck to play against (you actually win the permission battle), often I found myself waiting until they played a standstill for me to unload on my threats, probably mistbind clique, which gave them a very awkward feel towards playing one of their best cards... the fact that you can color screw them/time walk them in the early-mid game is also huge, as it allows to to sneak in early damage.... Scion of Oona is also amazing in this MU, as it can give your critter shroud in resp to it getting targeted (brilliant!), acting as a pseudo=counter in that respect as well. That, and you have an equivilent CA draw spell in AV, so they aren't the only one who can draw insane amounts of cards at a whim.

Anyways, the deck feels like it has some serious potential, and I would love for this thread not to die for that exact reason.

The deck has a totally different feel from anything else in Legacy, as it is usually trying to be very controling, but also has several other options, being able to be a tempo deck (repeal/spell snare/taping shit with your faeries), to occasionally shut peoples' hopes of getting into the game away, you also have the ability to play extremely controling, play like classic agro/control, or even go straight agro (well, not straight agro, but you can get agressive with an agro draw, which may/may not be a good thing in certain MUs).

Aggro_zombies

06-21-2008, 11:04 PM

Interesting. I did some light testing of the Faestill list last night but wasn't really enchanted with it. I'm thinking I'm going to try a modified Fae Thresh list next:

4 Spellstutter Sprite
4 Scion of Oona
3 Pestermite
2 Vendillion Clique

4 Bitterblossom

4 Daze
3 Counterbalance
4 Force of Will

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Sensei's Divining Top

3 Engineered Explosives

4 Underground Sea
4 Tropical Island
3 Island
1 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
2 Volrath's Stronghold

I think that's it...don't have it in front of me at the moment, but I basically just swapped creatures and Jitte out of my black Thresh deck for Faeries, so it looks right (by the way, Bitterblossom is nutty in black Thresh, especially with Jitte).

thefreakaccident

06-23-2008, 12:12 AM

The more and more I played with pestermite, the less and less I liked seeing it in my opening hand... I would suggest some number of mistbind clique, as he saves shit from removal, can act as a time walk, and is a 4/4 flying fatty.

wickedmic

06-24-2008, 08:33 AM

how viable is this build? Im quite interested in building a variant of it, I think its heavy permission has strong match ups against combo and other control decks, my concern is its match up against gobs, affinity and other aggro builds, was there anyone who played this against legacy stax how was it?

anyway heres a build i think would work in our local meta (landstill variants, gobs, belcher, tarmo thresh variants are always present here)

creaures (13)

1 Mistbind Clique
2 Pestermite
4 Scion of Oona
4 Spellstutter Sprite
2 Vendilion Clique

instant [18]

4 Brainstorm
3 Counterspell
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
2 smother
2 repeal

sorcery [3]

3 Ancestral Vision

enchantment [3]

3 Bitterblossom

artifact [4]

2 Chrome Mox
2 Vedalken Shackles

land [19]

1 Academy Ruins

4 polluted delta

5 Island

3 Mutavault

2 swamp

4 Underground Sea

60 cards

Sideboard:

2 Sower of Temptation

1 Smother

1 Mistbind Clique

4 Leyline of the Void

3 Engineered plague

1 Meekstone

1 Pithing Needle

2 Tormod's Crypt

2 Umezawa's Jitte

15 cards

other possible techs are stifle, since im not running white dark blast for the turn 1 lackey ^^

tell me what you guys think?

Illissius

06-24-2008, 10:22 AM

First of all, I'd go:

+1 Ancestral Vision
+1 Bitterblossom
-2 cards which are worse

Does anyone have actual play experience with Mistbind Clique? It seems expensive and unreliable to me. This isn't Standard, where even the aggro decks play Cryptic Command.

As I like pasting untested decklists as much as the next guy and probably more, here's what mine tentatively looks like:

4 Bitterblossom
4 Spellstutter Sprite
4 Scion of Oona
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Thoughtseize
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Force of Will
4 Ancestral Vision
4 Brainstorm
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
4 Underground Sea
3 Tundra
3 Mutavault
1 Island
1 Swamp
SB: 4 Extirpate / Leyline of the Void
SB: 4 Mind Harness
SB: 4 Hydroblast
SB: 3 Pithing Needle

The biggest problem with this is that both Engineered Plague and Countertop are Game Over, and I'm not sure what to do about it. Maybe -2 Mutavault, +2 Tropical, and board Grips like everyone else. (Or play bad cards like Mortify, which is at least an instant unlike Vindicate). At least with all the shittons of disruption in the deck, you stand a pretty good chance of not letting them resolve either, so maybe you don't have to worry about it so much. (And it might be just me, but Engineered Plague seems to be going out of fashion these days.)

I splashed for Swords here because it's just so much better than every other removal option (save Snuff Out and Maze of Ith, in certain decks which are not this one) and you're only two colors so far so why the hell not; but I could also see a build which goes -4 Swords, +4 Smother, -3 Mutavault, -3 Tundra, -2-3 Sea, +8-9 basic lands, and plays Back to Basics -- and with Force, Thoughtseize, and Therapy, pretty regularly gets it to stick. I'm just not sure what to cut for the Back to Basics.

Mister Agent

06-24-2008, 01:48 PM

Here is my version of Faeries except I decided to use more of a toolbox method via intuition.

Lands
2 Island
2 Mutavault
4 Polluted Delta
3 Underground Sea
1 Breeding Pool
1 Swamp
3 Flooded Strand
1 Wasteland
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Academy Ruins
4 Tropical Island

Creatures
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Scion of Oona
2 Spellstutter Sprite

Spells
3 Counterbalance
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Bitterblossom
3 Intuition
1 Life from the Loam
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Diabolic Edict
3 Daze

Sideboard
1 Counterbalance
2 Hydroblast
3 Extirpate
3 Krosan Grip
3 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Thoughtseize

Intuition can give faeries more kick especially with volrath's stronghold. It can also give the deck more flexibility as well. Even though intuition could dilute the deck somewhat considering it will be less focused as a faerie deck. However, I think intuition should be worth exploring in faeries at least.

Also another note about Intuition is it can also give you the choice to shift gears and so you won't always have to play faeries one way. My list is still under preliminary stages of testing but so far it's been running smoothly since it has some flexibility.

I definitely think my list could use more draw though I am thinking along the lines of accumulated knowledge. Since Ak synergizes well with intuition however on a serious note it seems subpar compared to other options out there.

Aggro_zombies

06-24-2008, 06:26 PM

Does anyone have actual play experience with Mistbind Clique? It seems expensive and unreliable to me. This isn't Standard, where even the aggro decks play Cryptic Command.
Yeah, it's not very good. Four mana is a lot to ask for and the tap ability is often either irrelevant, or Stifled. I could see it being useful against control if you suspect them of holding a Deed / EE, but other than that it's just...meh.

thefreakaccident

06-24-2008, 06:31 PM

Does anyone have actual play experience with Mistbind Clique? It seems expensive and unreliable to me. This isn't Standard, where even the aggro decks play Cryptic Command.

Mistbind clique is actually quite amazing, much like how mystic enforcer is amazing in threshold, except better, as he has a lot of subtle plays that you can use him for, that enforcer cannot even hope to try to accomplish:

1. he can save a critter from removal:

Opponent: swords

Me: targeting?

Them, points at a dude

Me, saves dude, taps some lands

You can also make this play with scion of oona, making the creature untargettable in response to being targeted, making the swords/whatever fizzle...

Mistbind cliques' 4/4 body w/ evasion is not to be overlooked, as he can usually get rid of a neigh useless mutavault (if they have ground meat)... he is quite significant in damage races... as well as making my favorite play in this deck possible:

Upkeep, tap all your lands... they pass, my turn beats for like 10-15, with counterbackup... obviously it is slightly exaggerated, but you get the point... the card is fantastic... you should definitely test it, or don't... I don't care...

I will be unable to get mutavaults for my upcoming local tournament, but I will play my deck in the source online tourney, and IF I win, I will start a new thread for this with my list in the opening post, and a good primer.

EDIT: @ kevin...

With the really low number of fearies, I think it would be just stronger for that lisst to just cut the faerie sub-theme you have going on... bitterblossom is good, but not good enough to make both sprite and scion good in that list...