Staxs question.

[The Wes]

Ok, quick question about stax. I keep getting different answers. I have both the tabernacle land and a smokestack out. I was told that I can put smokestack on the stack firt, then tabernacle, making them resolve in such a way that they must first pay for the tabernacle or sac the creature, then sac for the smokestack trigger. I dissagreed, saying that because tabernacles gives their creatures the "pay 1 or sac" ability, that they decide when it goes on the stack, and can pay after sac'ing to smokestack. Sorry if that sounds confusing, its way too many sac, stack, and smokestack words in one paragraph.

[yggdrasil]

Ok, quick question about stax. I keep getting different answers. I have both the tabernacle land and a smokestack out. I was told that I can put smokestack on the stack firt, then tabernacle, making them resolve in such a way that they must first pay for the tabernacle or sac the creature, then sac for the smokestack trigger. I dissagreed, saying that because tabernacles gives their creatures the "pay 1 or sac" ability, that they decide when it goes on the stack, and can pay after sac'ing to smokestack. Sorry if that sounds confusing, its way too many sac, stack, and smokestack words in one paragraph.
If we are in your opponents upkeep we have two abilities that trigger: All the pay-1-trigger of that opponents creature that they get from your Tabernacle, and your sac-trigger from the smokestack. The order in which they are put on the stack is active-player-nonactive-player (APNAP), so your Smokestack ability will resolve first.

[The Wes]

Sorry, the question was more allong the lines of if I control both abilities and can choose the stack order, or if they control the "pay 1 or sac" ability on their creatures. For some reason i'm just having a hard time explaining this from work with all the distractions.

[YuanTi]

Sorry, the question was more allong the lines of if I control both abilities and can choose the stack order, or if they control the "pay 1 or sac" ability on their creatures. For some reason i'm just having a hard time explaining this from work with all the distractions.

The Tabernacle effect happens first, nobody chooses.

Their creature has an ability, gven to them by Tabernacle (your control is irrelevant) and your smokestack has an ability. Since your opponent is the active player the pay 1 ability must be paid first. (APNAP as yggdrasil said)
They cannot choose to delay the pay ability until after stack.

[Nihil Credo]

The Tabernacle effect happens first, nobody chooses.

Their creature has an ability, gven to them by Tabernacle (your control is irrelevant) and your smokestack has an ability. Since your opponent is the active player the pay 1 ability must be paid first. (APNAP as yggdrasil said)
They cannot choose to delay the pay ability until after stack.
You mixed those two up. APNAP is the order in which triggers go on the stack; they resolve in the opposite order. The Tabernacle ability (active player's) will be at the bottom and resolve last, the Smokestack (NAP's) will be at the top and resolve first.

[YuanTi]

You mixed those two up. APNAP is the order in which triggers go on the stack; they resolve in the opposite order. The Tabernacle ability (active player's) will be at the bottom and resolve last, the Smokestack (NAP's) will be at the top and resolve first.

My mistake, not thinking properly... :frown:

[Skeggi]

Sorry to revive this old thread, but I just want to make something clear (for myself, mostly):


You mixed those two up. APNAP is the order in which triggers go on the stack; they resolve in the opposite order. The Tabernacle ability (active player's) will be at the bottom and resolve last, the Smokestack (NAP's) will be at the top and resolve first.

In practice it will come to this:

It's the nonstax-player's upkeep: he has 1 creature and 1 land. Creature's upkeep goes on the stack, Smokestack's upkeep goes on the stack. The player taps his land for 1 mana. He sacrifices the land for Smokestack. He pays the creature's upkeep with the 1 mana floating.

So basically: it doesn't really matter what resolves first. Amirite?

[Jaiminho]

So basically: it doesn't really matter what resolves first. Amirite?

What if you don't care about sacrificing the creature, but want the land untapped? That's the point of the question. Smokestack's ability resolves, you choose to sacrifice the creature. Tabernacle's granted ability resolves, you again choose to sacrifice the creature, but since that's gone already, nothing happens. Land's there still.

[Lego]

What if you don't care about sacrificing the creature, but want the land untapped? That's the point of the question. Smokestack's ability resolves, you choose to sacrifice the creature. Tabernacle's granted ability resolves, you again choose to sacrifice the creature, but since that's gone already, nothing happens. Land's there still.

You can do this without Smokestack anyway. Just don't pay the creature's upkeep.

[Jaiminho]

You can do this without Smokestack anyway. Just don't pay the creature's upkeep.

Obviously. The question was if you had to sacrifice 2 or only 1 with Smokestack + Magus, though.

[f|i[p]]

OK.... now I'm lost here....what's the real question anyway.


OK, from what I know and what i have been doing with the stax tabernacle upkeep triggers for the past year.

If I control both smokestack and magus, I can choose which trigger comes out first by stacking them in the correct order.

If I am the non active player(considering the active player also has triggered abilities which go ont he stack at the same times yours do), My triggered abilities come in last therefor go out first..

To answer the first question the way I know it, is that you always have control on your triggered abilities if it occurs at the same time by stacking them in the right order.


Here's my question:

If I the non active player has a smokestack and magus of the tabernacle out, the active player having 1 land and 1 creature can still float the mana, sac the land(smokestack).. and pay for the creatures upkeep cost caused by tabernacle...Thus avoiding sacrificing both permanents... Is this right?

[DeathScythe]

yes that's absolutely right, thats one of the anti-synergic things in stax atm (it's good though that some people aren't aware of this due to the absence of heavy stax meta)

[Jaiminho]

;270689']Here's my question:

If I the non active player has a smokestack and magus of the tabernacle out, the active player having 1 land and 1 creature can still float the mana, sac the land(smokestack).. and pay for the creatures upkeep cost caused by tabernacle...Thus avoiding sacrificing both permanents... Is this right?

Yes, correct. You can sacrifice either without losing the other: you can tap the land to pay for the creature's upkeep before sacrificing it to Smokestack; or simply sacrifice the creature to Smokestack and not be forced to sacrifice anything else.

[f|i[p]]

Thanks... at least I know I was doing everything right.... I don't have to tell the active player that he can do that anyway, not my responsibility to inform him that he can float the mana.. Just had to clear things up...

[Lego]

;270938']Thanks... at least I know I was doing everything right.... I don't have to tell the active player that he can do that anyway, not my responsibility to inform him that he can float the mana.. Just had to clear things up...

True, but you cannot tell him this:


;270689']If I control both smokestack and magus, I can choose which trigger comes out first by stacking them in the correct order.

Magus grants a triggered ability to his creatures. It's not an ability that you control. Since he's the active player, it goes on the stack first, so Smokestack will resolve first. You can't tell him that you want to stack Smokestack, then Magus, so Magus resolves first.

[The Wes]

Thanks Lego, thats what my orginal question back in June was about. :)

[f|i[p]]

Got it, thanks for clearing that up.

I don't really think I would ever want him to pay for creatures before he sacrifices anyway. But at least its quite clear, that I don't control the magus trigger.

[f|i[p]]

wait...so with tangle wire on the board as well as magus and smokestack, if I dont control magus's trigger. as well as tangle wires which one goes first?


smokestack comes out first... then???

[Anusien]

If multiple triggered abilities trigger at the same time, their controller chooses the order they go on the stack. So if you control Tangle Wire and Smokestack, it's your choice how they resolve.

[Lego]

;272908']wait...so with tangle wire on the board as well as magus and smokestack, if I dont control magus's trigger. as well as tangle wires which one goes first?


smokestack comes out first... then???

Let's stack it. Triggers go on the stack in APNAP order. It's your opponent's upkeep, so he is the active player. All of his creatures have a "Pay 1 or sacrifice" ability that goes on the stack first. Then you control both Smokestack and Tangle Wire. Stack them in whichever order you want, and whichever one you stack first will resolve last. So the possibilities for order resolution are:

1) Tangle Wire (Opponent taps some stuff)
2) Smokestack (Opponent sacs some stuff)
3) Magus (actually creatures triggering, not the Magus, and opponent pays or sacs more)

or

1) Smokestack
2) Tangle Wire
3) Magus

It's helpful to note that Tangle Wire is going to resolve before Magus, so that if your opponent wants to pay to keep their creatures alive, they have to do it with lands they're not tapping to Tangle Wire. Also, always make sure Tangle Wire is placed on the stack first so that Smokestack resolves first. Read the following post for why. And yes, I'm dumb.

[Fred Bear]

But the order in which Smokestack/Tangle Wire resolves is largely irrelevant.

The order of Smokestack/Tangle Wire is very relevant. As the Stax player, you want the Smokestack to resolve 1st every time to provide the largest advantage.

Think of it this way... I have a Smokestack with 1 counter and a Tangle Wire with 1 counter... We go to my opponent's upkeep...

Stack Option (A) - Smokestack - Tangle Wire - Resolve - Tap Artifact/Land/Creature - Sac Tapped Artifact/Land/Creature

or

Stack Option (B) - Tangle Wire - Smokestack - Resolve - Sac Permanent - Tap Artifact/Land/Creature

By stacking the triggers so that Smokestack resolves first, you will always get more 'bang' for your buck.

-FB...

[Lego]

Stuff about how I'm wrong, and Smokestack should always resolve first

Right, I suck. Sorry! Make sure Smokestack resolves first! (Put Tangle Wire on the stack first)

[f|i[p]]

Ok.. got that, I just got lost at the point where I didn't control the magus triggers. I thought I didn't have control over tangle wires too.

But thanks to all the replies, it really helps.