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TheMuffinMan
06-18-2008, 07:09 PM
Yes really Battle of Wits.

Contrary to what one may think by initially looking at the list, it can actually drop bow rather consistently and at a fair speed. You can conceivably win on turn two and its speed tends to surprise people. Since it has such a high card count it of course can crap out. I would argue however, that this happens less than a normal combo deck, and should be viewed as combo control.

I have been working on this deck for quite some time now. It is adapted from an articles written a long time ago. You can see part 1 and part 2 of the primer written by Ben Kowal and Matthieu Durand here:

http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/7676.html
http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/7677.html

I used Kowal's vintage version as a base a while ago and the deck has evolved since. I will be the first person to state that I do not consider this to be a viable tier 1 deck. The main point of posting this is first off to present this deck to a community in hopes that it can evolve into something of a viable tier two. Also I would like it to evolve to the point where that someone could have fun with on mws and surprise people playing tier one decks or, if you have the collection, could be taken to a tournament and perform decently.


Ubw Battle of Wits

Lands
14 Island
1 [US] Phyrexian Tower
4 [A] Scrubland
2 [PT] Plains
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
1 [IA] Snow-Covered Swamp
1 [MI] Swamp
1 [IA] Snow-Covered Plains
4 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
4 [EX] City of Traitors
4 [TE] Wasteland
4 [CH] City of Brass
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [B] Underground Sea
4 [MI] Crystal Vein
14 [IA] Snow-Covered Island
3 [WL] Gemstone Mine
4 [A] Tundra

Teh Win
4 [OD] Battle of Wits
4 [SC] Decree of Justice

Tutors:
4 [MI] Enlightened Tutor
4 [OD] Tainted Pact
4 [TE] Intuition
4 [MI] Mystical Tutor
4 [CHK] Gifts Ungiven
4 [HL] Merchant Scroll
4 [UD] Academy Rector
4 [FD] Trinket Mage

Cantrips/Carddraw
4 [IN] Fact or Fiction
4 [FD] Night's Whisper
4 [7E] Sleight of Hand
4 [IN] Opt
4 [FD] Serum Visions
4 [OD] Peek
4 [LRW] Ponder
4 [VI] Impulse
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [NE] Accumulated Knowledge

Countermagic:
4 [RAV] Remand
4 [MM] Counterspell
4 [SH] Mana Leak
4 [FD] Condescend
4 [MM] Misdirection
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [DIS] Spell Snare
4 [OD] Divert
4 [NE] Daze

Anti-Creature:
4 [B] Swords to Plowshares
4 [OD] Innocent Blood
4 [TE] Diabolic Edict
3 [LG] Moat
4 [DIS] Condemn

Tutor Targets:
1 [PS] Dromar's Charm
1 [IN] Recoil
1 [SOK] Footsteps of the Goryo
2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
1 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
1 [SOK] Pithing Needle
1 [MI] Shallow Grave
1 [TE] Reanimate
1 [DK] Tormod’s Crypt

Accelerants
4 [US] Show and Tell
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [A] Dark Ritual

Disruption
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
4 [AP] Vindicate
4 [7E] Duress

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [R] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 4 [UL] Engineered Plague
SB: 4 [7E] Arcane Laboratory
SB: 4 [US] Back to Basics




[B]Card Choices:

If you choose to read the vintage articles, a good explanation of some of the card choices will become apparent. However, I will go over some of them in here just the same.

- Cantrips: These are present in order to draw into the better cards and to help keep the manabase from becoming too large. While one could replace them with just "good" cards, I feel as though I would rather have cards that either draw into a combo chain or just help you find your best cards.

- Your alternate win condition is decree of justice and is there as a good late game finisher. It is there just in case something goes terribly wrong. I.e. discard + extirpate on bow or what have you.

- There are some one ofs that are meant to be tutored for i.e. recoil and dromar's charm through merchant scroll, trinket mage tutors, or some one ofs to setup a difficult gifts ungiven with the stack usually consisting of rector, shallow grave, reanimate, and cabal therapy or bow and no grave/reanimate depending on your mana.

- Accelerents: Some cards like dark ritual or ancient tomb might seem out of place. However, they can significantly increase your chances of getting an early rector or bow, and often surprise your opponent.

- Seemingly suboptimal cards like condemn and divert are there to combat problematic issues such as lackey in the former case and sinkhole/hymn/vindicate/counterspells in the latter.

- Snow-Covered lands are there for tainted pact


Matchups:

Since the field in legacy is so diverse its difficult to gauge how this would do at a tournament. However, I will try to go over what I’ve experienced as the favorability of this deck in some matchups. Note: take this information with a grain of salt as most of the testing for this analysis has been done on mws.

Threshold: While this might seem completely unfavorable it isn’t quite so bad. You have a lot of ways to cause end of turn battles and drain their countermagic. Also cheap disruption in the form of misd, force, and disrupt can help force through big threats. The faster they come out the worse it will be for you. The long game is definitely in your favor as you have very strong card draw and a diverse group of cards to tutor for in order to throw them off. If they have cards like reb or krosan grip in the sb it can get alittle hairy. Back to basics can come in and provide a good threat.

Goblins: From my experience this matchup is very draw dependent. If you don’t have an answer to turn one lackey you are going to have a rough time. I would say overall its unfavorable. E-plagues in the sb help a little and beb can help deal with turn one lackey.

Black Aggro: This matchup can be pretty bad since they have a massive amount of hand disruption and if they crack you on turn one and keep the waste/ld going its pretty tough to recover. Your misd effects are great here and if you make it into the mid to late game you have a pretty good shot.

Random aggro (Zoo/RG): This matchup is usually favorable. You have just as efficient creature removal and lots of countermagic. Try to save countermagic as much as possible for the fatal burn spells. Beb can help in the sb. Against reb again just use discard or misd effects.

Fast Combo: You have a large amount of countermagic and disruption. If you draw more of that initially, as opposed to creature control cards, and get through the first few turns you should be fine. Arcane lab is the best shut down combo card I could think of.

Deck Improvement:

Overall I would like to say again that I feel as though this can become a viable tier two deck and in my opinion it is a blast to play. I think the main things we should focus on is cutting cards and getting the deck to be more streamlined (as much as bow can). It is currently 258 cards which is more obese then even a bow deck should be. I think the range of cards we want should be 240-245 which prevents us from having to add relatively useless cards like 2x gaea’s blessing in order to keep bow viable in the late game. Also, the sideboard is old and needs work. I would like to keep the discussion focused on the current color scheme since adding more colors would add greater strain to the manabase against waste.

I hope this was an enjoyable read and I look forward to your thoughts and suggestions.

200+ card decks ftw!

Nihil Credo
06-18-2008, 08:01 PM
Rather than just post all the differences, I'll put here the list I have used in the past. The most striking difference is a lot of mana acceleration, which allows to race aggro more or less consistently, and the use of disruption instead of countermagic, since it's hard to win counter-wars after paying five mana. By the way, the original design isn't mine, I just tweaked it a bit; it also need to be updated since Coldsnap (Ponders, Thoughtseize, Idyllic Tutor, and perhaps something else).

// Deck file for Magic Workstation

// Lands
4 Hallowed Fountain
4 Tropical Island
3 Watery Grave
4 Underground Sea
4 Savannah
4 Tundra
3 Temple Garden
4 Scrubland
4 Bayou
3 Overgrown Tomb
5 Forest
3 High Market
4 City of Brass
4 Breeding Pool
6 Island
6 Swamp
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Plains
4 Flooded Strand
4 Windswept Heath
4 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Tendo Ice Bridge

// Creatures
1 Carrion Feeder
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Wall of Roots
4 Wall of Blossoms
1 Eternal Witness
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Auramancer
3 Academy Rector
1 Karmic Guide
1 Body Double
1 Simic Sky Swallower

// Spells
4 Urza's Bauble
4 Mishra's Bauble
4 Lotus Petal
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Duress
4 Exploration
4 Sleight of Hand
4 Serum Visions
4 Mystical Tutor
4 Brainstorm
3 Orim's Chant
3 Enlightened Tutor
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Gaea's Blessing
4 Living Wish
4 Edge of Autumn
4 Regrowth
4 Impulse
4 Abeyance
4 Eladamri's Call
4 Sterling Grove
3 Lim-Dul's Vault
4 Grim Tutor
4 Pernicious Deed
3 Intuition
4 Cunning Wish
1 Solitary Confinement
4 Coalition Relic
4 Damnation
4 Gifts Ungiven
4 Fact or Fiction
4 Replenish
4 Brainspoil
4 Battle of Wits
1 Dovescape

// Sideboard
SB: 1 High Market
SB: 1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
SB: 1 Extirpate
SB: 1 Orim's Chant
SB: 1 Enlightened Tutor
SB: 1 Worthy Cause
SB: 1 Swords to Plowshares
SB: 1 Lim-Dul's Vault
SB: 1 Eternal Witness
SB: 1 Harmonic Sliver
SB: 1 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Intuition
SB: 1 Auramancer
SB: 1 Academy Rector
SB: 1 Simic Sky Swallower

Roman Candle
06-18-2008, 08:11 PM
Nihil, no Enduring Ideal? It seems like you could pay for it pretty easily, and it pretty much spells GG against control. Maybe you omitted it from your list? It looks like you already play the one-of Dovescape. Also, how do you plan to maintain Confinement? Maybe I'm missing something, since I didn't have time to look over 250 cards in-depth.

TheMuffinMan
06-18-2008, 08:48 PM
While I appreciate the inclusion of the initial five color decklist and the follow up comment, I would like to keep the deck discussion focused solely on the Ubw version of battle of wits. As for the 5 color decklist posted, I think that although is has some interesting ideas presented, it seems alittle unfocused. If you would like to comment on which of these cards you think would work in the initial decklist, I would be intreseted to read those suggestions.

Nihil Credo
06-18-2008, 08:56 PM
If you would like to comment on which of these cards you think would work in the initial decklist, I would be intreseted to read those suggestions.
Ok. For starters, Lim-Dul's Vault Brainspoil, Grim Tutor, Idyllic Tutor, Replenish, and as RC mentioned Enduring Ideal. Then the Cunning Wish toolbox.

kirdape3
06-18-2008, 09:27 PM
Do you really want to be a combo deck, or a control deck with an 'oops I win!' element?

I'd certainly stylize this as UBW control with basically every element I could think of to keep the board manageable, and then aim to win with either an insane bomb (say Meloku, Psychatog, Oona, etc.) or just tutor up Battle and win on your next upkeep. I would not keep the two mana lands since you would require every land to stay in play as long as possible (you don't care really when you win with such a deck, so long as you actually aren't dead when you finally try to do so).

Also, Enduring Ideal is absurdly good and should be played. Even if you're not straight killing someone with Battle of Wits, you can go the Extended route and dome them by turning into a Dragon and hitting them four times.

TheMuffinMan
06-18-2008, 09:35 PM
Both Grim tutor and Brainspoil are double black which is difficult to produce in this deck. Regarding brainspoil, I do not often go directly for battle of wits and there are only 3 targets bow, fow, and Misd. Also as they are sorcery speed, and tend to create a difficult situation when one is trying to maintain counter mana. I suppose going grim tutor into rector the next turn is feasible however leaving yourself open for a turn without responding to threats seems to be a recipe for disaster. The only enchantments I have in here are BOW and moat (not including the sb). Playing Idyllic tutor and only having those two options seems a waste.

Lim-Duls vault I think is a very interesting card however there is only so much life you have to play with and while the deck can pull out fast starts, it is looking to drop bow or rector between turns 4-6. I wonder if losing say 3-4 life would put us into burn range when going against an aggro player with an unknown hand. Perhaps someone could elaborate on how they experienced playing this in a large deck.

Enduring Ideal honestly just seems like way to much mana. I am not sure how it spells gg againt control as RC suggested but seven mana including double white seems like it would be extremely risky. If i have 7 mana i would want to have bow/rector and probably two counters to protect it. Unlike the 5 c version that was suggested by Nihil, I do not have many enchantments to target.

I had cunning wish in the deck for some time but I found it to be a little slow. The ideal thing to do would be to go wish into enlightened tutor at eot into bow. I was wondering what do you think would be a good wish sb for the Ubw version?

With regard to replenish, what do you think would be the rational of having this card in the deck?

@KirdApe3
It is suppose to be combo control. The two mana lands are there for the same reason that I have dark ritual in there. I want to play countermagic from the beginning to mid game and then accel into a tutor and get bow into play b4 a player can keep throwing threats at you.

Pulp_Fiction
06-22-2008, 03:47 AM
I would love to see this deck work in Legacy because it is just cool as hell but right now I am trying to make Enduring Ideal work and it's only real problem is speed. It is quite consistent but it usually takes until turn 4 to go off on average which isn't bad since it is totally immune to counterbalance. It looks like this deck would have problems with speed. You could run the sack lands that come into play tapped to speed it up and also play cards like Coalition Relic (really underplayed card, amazing at fixing mana), Pentad Prism, and the Signets from Ravnica block. Oh and this deck really needs Enduring Ideal, it lets you win the game ... or in worse case scenario it acts as a jacked up Ideal deck, all you need to do is run some enchantments that kill your opponent, not necessarily Form of the Dragon. Something like Sacred Mesa or Mobilization since neither of those suck on their own and won't be dead draws if you are only playing UWB. Also, I have not played this deck before because it requires to much shuffling but it looks like your have WAY to many counterspells, try cutting a few for acceleration.

THEchubbymuffin
06-22-2008, 04:34 AM
all you need to do is run some enchantments that kill your opponent, not necessarily Form of the Dragon. Something like Sacred Mesa or Mobilization since neither of those suck on their own and won't be dead draws if you are only playing UWB.

I think the first card I would Enduring ideal in this deck is battle of wits. Not sacred mesa or moblization.

Oros, the Avenger
06-22-2008, 07:12 AM
But if you know your opponent can handle BoW, it's just stupid to get it ASAP. You should throw in a thread like Form of the Dragon, that normally has to be handled, and when your opponent doesn't have any solutions for BoW left, go straight for the win(even better with backup). Maybe you could get rid of the control elements(except for FoW or something like that) and get a hell lot of mana acceleration and many many tutors to get it really consistend even at high speed. I've never played a deck like this, so it's all hypothetical, but maybe it could work.:confused:

Toad
06-22-2008, 09:16 AM
These two articles were nothing more than a joke. There is really no reason to play 250 average cards and Battle of Wits over 60 good cards and something else.

helldragon96
06-22-2008, 10:39 AM
I don't know if this has been said already, I haven't read the whole thread. why don't you run 3 BOW in the main, and one in the board with the white wish MD??? well just a suggestion.