If you play circular logic for it's madness cost while discarding it to something that causes you to discard multiple cards, such as firestorm or lion's eye diamond, does your opponent have to pay 1 for all the cards discarded?
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If you play circular logic for it's madness cost while discarding it to something that causes you to discard multiple cards, such as firestorm or lion's eye diamond, does your opponent have to pay 1 for all the cards discarded?
Yes, the cost for Circular Logic is counted as it resolves (it itself is not in the GY at this time though) and it wouldn't resolve until after the discard ability has been fully resolved.
Madness is not so simple, at least it was more complicated than it might seem when it was in T2. I don't have official rullings atm, but basically Madness Resolves in such a manner that every card discarded to Breakthrough goes to the yard first and foremost, along with the Breakthrough itself before madness resolves. A card discarded with madness is first removed from the game via a Triggered ability, then can be put onto the stack by paying its madness cost. If you choose not to pay it is imediately discarded. When casting Breakthrough you have to also choose if your discarding a madness card "using Madness" or simply discarding the card. One will remove it from the game the other puts it directly into the graveyard.
From the CR:
Madness is a combination of a replacement ability and a triggered ability. When the card would be discarded, as a replacement effect you can remove it from the game (and thus would be unaffected by Leyline of the Void or Tormod's Crypt). If you do remove it, a triggered ability goes on the stack to let you play it for [cost] or put it into the graveyard. So if you play it for its madness cost, it would never be put into the graveyard.Quote:
Madness: Madness is a keyword that represents two abilities. "Madness [cost]" means "If a player would discard this card, that player discards it, but may remove it from the game instead of putting it into his or her graveyard" and "When this card is removed from the game this way, its owner may play it by paying [cost] rather than paying its mana cost. If that player doesn't, he or she puts this card into his or her graveyard."
The offical rulling is almost exactly what I said, nearly word for word. The bolded part is incorrect as per the official ruling you just posted. Madness cards are not forced to be discarded using madness, it is a choice. There are two choices a player makes when discarding a card with madness; one is wheither to use the madness ability and remove it from the game, the other is to pay for it or not. Also, the order of the cards and how they hit the graveyard was addressed in my post, something I felt was relevant to the discussion and cannot be found in the official rules.Quote:
Originally Posted by Anusien
[Bickering removed.]
For the future, please don't flame even if you think someone is wrong or being sloppy. Don't take disagreements personally.
Please post the relevant rules in the first place and word your answers clearly to reduce the chance your answer will be misinterpreted.
Just for easyness, a madness card will stay in that zone until you pass priority. This means that if you discard two cards to a Careful Study, one being an Arrogant Wurmwith 2 land open you have the option to play the third land after the resolution of Careful study before playing Arrogant Wurm because a land does not use the stack.
Citanul, you have outdated information. This trick used to work, but they changed the way Madness works. This trick no longer works. Madness used to work that if you didn't play it by the next time you passed priority, it would be put into the graveyard. Now you have to play it during the resolution of the trigger (you never get priority on an empty stack in between discarding the card and the resolution of the Madness trigger) so you cannot play a land at that time.Quote:
Originally Posted by citanul