[Deck] The EPIC Elf Survival
[For now I'll leave this as it's own thread. After some thought, it's different enough both from traditional Elves and from traditional Survival that doesn't necessarily belong.]
Ok I figured it's time to bump this thread with what I've been working on over the past month or so. I wasn't going to bother posting it, but after BirdMan's recent top8 with it at Eli's Beta Dual Land tournament, I decided it's worth talking about. Since it's so drastically different I think it's best if I take a primer-esque approach to catch you guys up to speed.
Here's the current list I have, which is slightly different than what he ran. I should note that this is one of roughly 4-5 lists I'm testing right now, all of which have around a 1-5 card choice change (including 1-2 more land, 1 less land, running ESG, running maindeck Masticore, etc):
The EPIC Elf Survival
4 Survival of the Fittest
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Anger
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Priest of Titania
4 Elvish Champion
4 Imperious Perfect
3 Wren's Run Vanquisher
1 Thornweald Archer
4 Sylvan Messenger
1 Viridian Zealot
1 Wood Elves
2 Quirion Ranger
3 Wirewood Symbiote
2 Mirror Entity
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Taiga
3 Savannah
3 Forest
Since the sideboard was his own and meta dependant I'm opting to exclude it from here.
I started working on this list because I was casually having fun with Elves and realized the potential it had. The only issue was that it really needed haste and Concordant Crossroads sucks, so I checked out Survival + Anger. I saw some other lists that tried Survival but I wasn't impressed with them at all, so I took it upon myself to give it a shot. I put my own spin on it and I really liked what I came up with. Elves on it's own is already a really fast, consistent aggro deck (Just take out the Survival engine, add in more Symbiotes and maindeck Thorn of Amethyst and that's about the only changes), and adding Survival to it not only makes it a lot more powerful and explosive and turns it into a combo deck, but also gives the deck phenomenal game outside of Survival. You have a great aggro game outside of Survival alone with Mirror Entity and 8 lords in the deck, not to mention Elvish Champion gives forestwalk and 80% of the format runs Tarmogoyf. It has a phenomenal draw engine with Sylvan Messenger that is potentially more powerful than Goblin Ringleader because of this deck's ability to play more creatures a turn with acceleration and constantly play it over and over with Wirewood Symbiote. And with Survival you just go crazy with mana and then have multiple options, including going the infinate mana route with Wirewood Symbiote and Mirror Entity, or playing a string of Messengers and overwhelming the opponent, or just dropping a couple lords and smashing in. It's much, much different than playing a traditional Survival deck because this is entirely from an aggro standpoint, so I'll be discussing how it plays out below.
Piloting the deck is very strange, at least with Survival in play. Without it you can run it on auto-pilot for the most part. You play some dudes, play some lords, play Ringleader or something, and just smash. With Survival you have a lot of options. Depending on what you're up against, the infinate mana trick is my favorite, and you can do it as early as turn 3. Doing it is simple:
Priest of Titania + Wirewood Symbiote + Mirror Entity + another elf
Generally I stay away from combos in Survival because of how bad the pieces are on their own, but given all of these slots are in the deck anyway and good on their own, it just happens to work together. The key is to have Priest tap for at least GGG. Then activate Mirror Entity for 1. This will turn all your creatures into Changelings, so Wirewood Symbiote will be an elf. It can then return itself to untap Priest of Titania. Cast Symbiote with GG floating, activate Entity for 1, repeat. It nets mana, and you go infinate and can make your creatures as big as you like and swing in. It's very easy to pull this off as early as turn 3, but it's most common on turn 4.
If you don't take that route, then you can play it to how you see fit, but it depends on the matchups. This could involve strings of chaining Priest of Titanias into lords, or playing multiple Sylvan Messengers to build up an army, or whatever you like.
Card Choices:
Survival + Squee + Anger: It's actually not the heart of the deck, but more a complement to it. Anger is what this is about, but I actually hate Squee in here, but it's unfortunately a necessity.
8 Mana Elves: They accelerate into turn 2 lords, or Survival with mana floating. Having a lot of them is golden as you have a high chance of opening with one.
Priest of Titania: 4 non-legendary Rofellos? Crack.. This is the card that really took me to building this. It is stupid good, with or without Survival.
8 Lords: This is really what gives the deck a beating outside Survival. Having all of them turns all the measly critters into small beaters, and they both have a good ability. Forestwalk is nuts in Legacy, and Perfect pumping out 2/2's every turn is awesome against almost every match. Adding an untapper like Ranger or Symbiote makes him even better. Having all of them also allows me to fight Engineered Plague a lot better.
Wren's Run Vanquisher: I consider him removal before a beater. Deathtouch is really good in here because I can shrug off creatures like Tarmogoyf easily. It also happens to be nice when Wirewood Symbiote bounces it after combat damage.
Thornweald Archer: The oddball choice, and some say it's bad, but I wanted an outlet for Tombstalker. Tombstalker can be a problem if I don't have much else going on. I've been happy with this guy so far, because it still kills Tarmogoyf all the same.
Sylvan Messenger: This guy is just dumb. I don't need to explain this.
Viridian Zealot: There needs to be some sort of artifact/enchantment removal. Sadly this guy doesn't get around Counterbalance that well, but thankfully half the deck does anyway.
Wood Elves: The other oddball slot in here. It's the worst card in the deck, but a necessary evil. I wanted a way to reliably get a white mana to cast Mirror Entity, and this guy also happens to pull Taiga to give me haste. It turns out he's really good for the deck.
Quirion Ranger: I run multiples of these because not only can it be vital to use both when trying to rack up Priest mana and combo, but it's also incredible on its own and to hit off Messenger. With so few lands, having more Wasteland protection also works. I tried running just one but I felt I really needed the second.
Wirewood Symbiote: The heart of the deck. It does pretty much everything. It protects all your other creatures leaving opponents to have to get him out of the way, it is a mana accelerator, it bounces Messenger for insane card advantage, and it allows you to combo. If space permitted I'd run 4 even if it isn't an elf, because it's that good.
Mirror Entity: This was originally Kamahl, Fist of Krosa until I noticed this is also an elf. Hitting these off Messenger is awesome. Without Survival it's insane because it very easily turns your team into a group of 4/4-6/6, or with Priest is just makes you go lethal. I run 2 of them due to the importance of it helping the combo and can grab another if it dies, but also because it's a great draw and flip off Messenger. Plus, it allows you to cast Squee and Anger in a pinch and still make them big, which is a nice plus if you draw them. This guy really puts the deck over the top.
Cards that didn't make the cut:
Genesis: He's another non-elf, and it's very rare I'm going to be using him because there aren't many singletons that I'd need to get back. He just wasn't pulling weight like he would in normal builds.
Eternal Witness: Originally in here like Genesis, but the fact it isn't an elf is really a liability. Plus, I'm not too worried if my Survival dies. The deck is very good at generating advantage without it, so I'm not too worried about it.
Rofellos: The deck doesn't run many lands, so it's hard to abuse him. Occasionally I'd like him if I don't have an opening accelerator, but the deck has enough acceleration anyway.
Masticore: Masticore is always being swapped in and out of the deck. It is incredible in here due to the high amount of mana it generates, but it always feels win more in those matchups. Generally if I can add enough to blow up someone's team, I can win instead. It's unlikely as a random draw, and it messes with Messenger. I like it in the sideboard instead.
Tarmogoyf: Some would argue that Tarmogoyf is green thus deserves its space. Sadly, it sucks, but in this deck and against it. The opponent has to do all the work to make Goyf worthwhile, and it's a waste of time. It's why Goblins doesn't run it either.
Elvish Spirit Guide: This actually isn't a card that didn't make the cut, because I'm doing extensive testing with it right now. The results are sort of wishy-washy. Sometimes it makes the deck explode with something like turn 1 Priest, Survival, Vanquisher, or lord, or multiple mana elves turn 1, and other times it seems like a permanent mana source would be just as good if not better. I like this guy, I'm just not sure if it has a place just yet. It does help that it fucks with Daze decks though.
Utility Elves and other reasonable beaters: Stuff like Caller of the Claw, Wellwisher, Chameleon Colossus, Wren's Run Packmaster, etc all fall under this category. Those guys are either sideboard material, or aren't strong enough to make the cut in the maindeck. I wanted to keep the maindeck as compact as possible, and not clutter it with more 1of's than I needed.
Sideboard:
The sideboard is still way too variable to figure it out. I have a million options on what I want from it, but this is what I have
Krosan Grip
Orim's Chant
Gaddock Teeg
Magus of the Moon
Choke
Thorn of Amethyst
Tormod's Crypt
Relic of Progrenitus
Yixlid Jailer
Faerie Macabre
Pithing Needle
Null Rod
Engineered Plague
Goblin Pyromancer
Masticore
Price of Progress
Wellwisher
Caller of the Claw
Other utility I'm possibly forgetting?
The main issue is that I haven't entirely narrowed down all of the bad matchups yet in it's entirety and built the sideboard around that. I have a pretty good idea though from what I've gathered from two months of testing. For now, this is my default sideboard based off the harder matchups:
4 Krosan Grip
4 Orim's Chant
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Magus of the Moon
2 Choke
3 OPEN SLOTS
Matchups:
Counterbalance Threshold: Favorable.
These decks are easy prey because they have little removal to handle all of your creatures, and you have a lot of guys to get around Counterbalance. Tarmogoyf isn't too big of a problem with all the chump blockers you have, and it's hard for them to stop you if any of your bombs (Survival, Champion, Perfect, Entity, Symbiote/Messenger) go unchecked. Black is a bit harder due to Engineered Plague and maybe Thoughtseize, but you're already bringing in Krosan Grips and then Choke and Magus of the Moon lock them down as well. Red can be an issue though because of Pyroclasm and Firespout. That card alone gives them a shot. Plague can be fought around, but those cards mess with you bad. Pyroclasm isn't as bad as you can fight it with double lord, but Firespout is hard, because Magus doesn't stop it. The matchup is still favorable, but can easily be lost due to that.
Tempo Threshold/ Team America : Slightly Favorable-Even.
These matches are usually blowouts on one side of the other. Tempo tricks are either hit or miss here. Either Elves is going to blow you out with acceleration to the point where LD is useless, or you'll hit a single land, kill a creature and put it out of the game. For the most part, you have a better chance at beating Team America and UGB Thrash down than UGR Canadian. Canadian has more removal with Fire/Ice and post-board Firespout/Clasm to do serious damage, so that can be a lot harder to win through. If you manage to circumvent any random mana screw then it's difficult to lose because you have so many creatures and they have so few blockers.
Landstill: Unfavorable.
This is bad, but not hopeless. If it's a 4c build then it's a lot worse, because Pernicious Deed is rough. The lack of disruption in discard hurts here because you can't hit them then resolve a bomb. You just need to rely on pulling cards and hopefully resolving Messengers to stay ahead in CA. Post-board you have Magus and Choke to help, maybe Grip, maybe Teeg if it's an EE/Humility build, and whatever else you end up boarding. Still, not a good match.
TES/ANT/Tendrils: Unfavorable.
This is arguably the worst matchup due to lack of disruption, but you can win turn 3 so you aren't entirely out of it. Post-board helps a little bit, but there isn't too much you can do here. Tendrils is really the only thing that would ideally sway a Survival player away from playing this.
Dreadstill: Favorable.
This plays out very similarly to Threshold, except your Vanqishers are running into Dreadnoughts instead. They can potentially win if they stick a turn 2-3 Dreadnought and are able to clear the way of Zealot or deathtouchers, but it's rare. It's difficult for them to handle all of your creatures pre-board, and if you're able to stick a Mirror Entity then chumping Dreadnoughts is surprisingly easy. Post-board it gets a bit tougher because of Firespout, but you still gain Choke and Krosan Grip to deal with Dreadnought and Counterbalance.
Goblins: Slightly Favorable.
This really depends if they run Perish in the sideboard or Goblin Sharpshooter. If they do, then post-board it'll be difficult to win if they have it and wipe your team. If they don't, then this match is fine. Sharpshooter is really rare now so I wouldn't expect it. You have a million creatures early to block Lackeys, and their mana denial isn't very effective with so much acceleration. SGC is still annoying though and can be a swing in their favor, but that was the case with the deck in any other matchup too. A single lord turns your team huge against them, and your creatures are a lot cheaper than theirs so you can easily win the arms race. It isn't a bye by any means, but when putting pure aggro-on-aggro here, you have more outlets to kill them. I haven't figured out the last slots in the sideboard yet, so these could potentially be Engineered Plagues, or Masticore + Goblin Pyromancer + something, I dunno.
Ichorid: Slightly Unfavorable
I don't have as much testing as I'd like against Ichorid, so I'm not entirely sure on it. Some of the games they just turn 1-2'd me, a few others we sat for a while and both sides had an attrition win, others I had a turn 3-4 win with the combo. It's highly dependant on the dieroll and the starts of both players. They can kill you quickly and rush out zombies, but you can throw a few men down early then swarm them. I haven't been exactly happy so far with it, so the sideboard will likely see hate against them, either Crypt or Plague (or both).
Aggro Loam: Even-Slightly Unfavorable
This match solely depends on if they see Devastating Dreams or not. If they do, you might lose. Your team gets wiped and you lose a few lands, and it's difficult to come back from that under most circumstances. Seismic Assault can be annoying if paired with Loam, but it can also be fought around if you're able to chain Messengers, but still really difficult. If not, then it's hard to lose. Aside from Terravore none of their creatures are remotely scary as you can either chump or toss a deathtoucher into them forever, and you still are fast enough to put pressure on them. I haven't figured out how I want to address this matchup yet. Caller of the Claw seems reasonable for shit like DD or Clasm, but it's a really weak slot otherwise. Or maybe Absolute Law, Bubble Matrix, or something else awful that stops sweepers.
Aside from the fact that a lot of the popular deck's aren't overwhelmingly favorable, the deck still has a lot of potential and arguably more viability than other Survival decks. It's a lot faster than the others and can work much better without Survival than them. Although traditional Survival has a better time with combo decks, it's much weaker against Counterbalance and tempo decks. I think it's at least looking into this because it gives the archtype a new twist.
/end rant.
Re: [Deck]The EPIC Elf Survival (I need to name this so bad)
Hi,
I'm one of the german creators of this deck (together with Tobias Hesser, who is not registered here). I have some things to point out with your list:
1. You should run more lands. Similar to Goblins, you have a really high curve, and even if you have mana elves, you still want to drop a land for the first 3 turns (sometimes you can cheat a little with Quirion Ranger). And you should play at least 2 Gaea's Cradle, these give ao much speed. Imagine T1 Mana Elf, T2 Cradle, 2drop, 2drop. With a Cradle, this deck goes really crazy.
2. 8 Lord + 2 Entities is way to much. You have way to much cards in your 3 mana slot, and with only 17 lands, you have high chances to die with 1 land and a hand full of lords. In our meta, most players have realized that this deck strongly depends on the first mana elf, so they often burn it away to slow us down. Actually we play with only 6 lords + one Entity, which seems to be enough. If you have Survival online, you will discard each lord for more Priests and Messenger and kill with the Entity or with (Beware! Secret tech!) Chameleon Colossus (which is also missing in your list).
3. 3 Wirewood Symbiote is also too much in my opinion. One or two of them is usually enough. When you start to combo of, you won't need more, and they are no Elves, so they don't profit from the Messengers or the Lords. Tobias and I always try not to play more non-elves than necessary.
4. I doubt, Wood Elves are good. I understand why you play them, but with enough Fetchs, you will find your Taiga in almost each game. If you need a land searcher, you might try Yavimaya Dryad. Its not an elf, but it can pass the Forest to your opponent (tricky, isnt it?). Forestwalk FTW!
So our actual Decklist looks like this:
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Priest
4 Messenger
3 Champion
3 Perfect
4 Vanquisher (Thornwald Archer is fine, too)
3 Quirion Ranger (insane wish Priests)
2 Viridean Zealot
1 Entity
1 Chameleon Colossus
1 Wirewood Symbiote
1 Anger
1 Squee
4 Survival
3 Cradle (might be 2, still testing)
3 Taiga
3 Savannah
6 Fetchs
5 Forest (number of Fetchs and Basics may vary)
Some explanations: We play more basics because of Magus of the Moon in our SB. You dont want to draw only Fetchs with him online. This gives us a slightly lower chance of having a Taiga, but normaly you only need it Turn 4, so you have enough time to find one.
The two Viridean Zealots are still experimental, maybe one is sufficient, but a 2drop more is good for the curve. We've also tried Iff-Biff Efreet in this slot (ok, honestly, who knows this card?), so we make good use of our mana, but the Colossus works better for this (and is and Elf, too).
Only one Symbiote, because he isnt an Elf. Most times, the Rangers and Priests can generate enough mana to kill, and one symbiote is enough to go infinte with the Entity.
Last, but not least, some additions to your sideboard pool:
You might try Wilt-Leaf Liege and Wrens Run Packmaster, which are really good against damage based (mass-)removal such as Devastating Dreams, Plagues and things like that.
best regard
Stefan
P.S.: Since we are the firsts to go Top8 with this list, maybe we should chose a proper name for this deck.
My first idea was: Combo !!!111 Elf Elf Elf
(the german Elf not only means elf, but also eleven, so its a good name for us here, but I'm afraig it doesnt make much sense outside of Germany).
Re: [Deck]The EPIC Elf Survival (I need to name this so bad)
First of all thanks for posting. It's nice to have someone who's familiar with the deck.
Quote:
1. You should run more lands. Similar to Goblins, you have a really high curve, and even if you have mana elves, you still want to drop a land for the first 3 turns (sometimes you can cheat a little with Quirion Ranger). And you should play at least 2 Gaea's Cradle, these give ao much speed. Imagine T1 Mana Elf, T2 Cradle, 2drop, 2drop. With a Cradle, this deck goes really crazy.
My list is currently up to 18 lands, the list that was run was 17. I haven't had many problems with that configuration so far. With 32 mana sources in the deck (18 land + 8 mana elves + 4 Priest + 2 Ranger) it is very rare that I don't hit mana. It's true I don't hit land first three turns as consistent as a 20-land deck, but it hasn't been a problem to the point where I'd like more of them. I'll also give Cradle another shot, but I'll be pissed if I get stuck with the one-land Cradle hand. I suppose it'd be safer in an ESG list though.
Quote:
2. 8 Lord + 2 Entities is way to much. You have way to much cards in your 3 mana slot, and with only 17 lands, you have high chances to die with 1 land and a hand full of lords. In our meta, most players have realized that this deck strongly depends on the first mana elf, so they often burn it away to slow us down. Actually we play with only 6 lords + one Entity, which seems to be enough. If you have Survival online, you will discard each lord for more Priests and Messenger and kill with the Entity or with (Beware! Secret tech!) Chameleon Colossus (which is also missing in your list).
I don't know the metagame in Germany, but in the US any deck that has access to black runs Engineered Plague. I can guarantee to see it in a majority of the sideboards I play against. I had to design the deck with that in mind to fight it. Not to mention there is a high amount of Counterbalance here. Getting around that with the 3cc slot is huge.
Chamelon Colossus isn't "missing," I cut it. It was mentioned in my opening post. I cut Colossus in favor of Mirror Entity because it turns a measly team into beaters that just wins, instead of a single creature that gets chumped. If I was going to use another 4cc creature as a beater though, It'd most likely be Wren's Run Packmaster, which I'm still looking at. It gets around Engineered Plague very well and makes creatures that do too. It's definetely something I'm interested in, at least moreso than Colossus.
Quote:
3. 3 Wirewood Symbiote is also too much in my opinion. One or two of them is usually enough. When you start to combo of, you won't need more, and they are no Elves, so they don't profit from the Messengers or the Lords. Tobias and I always try not to play more non-elves than necessary.
Running at least two is almost mandatory if you wish to combo. There are a lot of situations where you tap out to cast both Entity and Symbiote, then use Symbiote to return an elf and untap Priest, generating enough mana to find and cast another one, then go infinate. I run 3 despite the non-elf because it is one of the strongest draws in the deck. It makes the deck much more explosive and consistent, and recurring Messengers is insane. Also, it's more important given I place a higher emphasis on the combo.
Quote:
I doubt, Wood Elves are good. I understand why you play them, but with enough Fetchs, you will find your Taiga in almost each game. If you need a land searcher, you might try Yavimaya Dryad. Its not an elf, but it can pass the Forest to your opponent (tricky, isnt it?). Forestwalk FTW!
I run Wood Elves because it will fetch the Savannah, not the Taiga. It is harder to have multiple fetchlands to have both haste and cast Entity by turn 3-4. Wood Elves will get at least one of them, because I'll most likely have hit one fetchland or a dual, and most likely would go for Taiga first.
I do like your build, but I think it would have a lot more trouble over here due to the splash hate you get from Goblins. But I can see dropping a lord for a beefier dude reasonable, as well as taking some other things from the list.
