[Deck] DreadStalker

1. Intro

"Alright, I originally posted this in the Dreadstill thread because the people there were going through a phase where they were discussing the possibility of dropping Standstills; now, they're going through a phase where they've decided anything without Standstill belongs in a different thread, and I've gotten multiple requests to start a new thread for this deck, by virtue of its great and tremendous potential, and though I don't like starting threads for decks I haven't played a single game with, in this case I shall bend to the People's will, so here it is.

-- Illisius"

2. Lists

2.1 Traditional list

Code:

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// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
    4 [R] Underground Sea
    2 [GUR] Swamp
    2 [GUR] Island
    4 [TE] Wasteland
    4 [ON] Flooded Strand
    4 [ON] Polluted Delta

// Creatures
    4 [MI] Phyrexian Dreadnought
    4 [FUT] Tombstalker

// Spells
    4 [SC] Stifle
    4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
    4 [NE] Daze
    4 [AL] Force of Will
    4 [VI] Vision Charm
    4 [LRW] Ponder
    4 [IA] Brainstorm
    4 [MM] Snuff Out

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 3 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 4 [UL] Engineered Plague
SB: 2 [DS] Echoing Truth
SB: 4 [R] Blue Elemental Blast

---

The first list by Illisius. This is a very basic blue-black list. It's a mix of DreadStill with Eva Green. Fast disruption coupled with Phyrexian Dreadnought and Tombstalker that can come out on turn 2.

2.2 UB Sinkhole list

Code:

---

// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
    4 [R] Underground Sea
    1 [GUR] Swamp
    2 [GUR] Island
    4 [TE] Wasteland
    3 [ON] Flooded Strand
    4 [ON] Polluted Delta

// Creatures
    4 [MI] Phyrexian Dreadnought
    4 [FUT] Tombstalker

// Spells
    4 [SC] Stifle
    4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
    4 [NE] Daze
    4 [AL] Force of Will
    3 [VI] Vision Charm
    4 [LRW] Ponder
    4 [IA] Brainstorm
    3 [MM] Snuff Out
    4 [U] Sinkhole

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 4 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 4 [R] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 3 [FD] Engineered Explosives

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Here is a basic list using Sinkholes. The mana-denial plan is just as strong as Team America, only with a stronger manabase and bigger threads.

2.3 UBg list

Code:

---

// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
    3 [R] Underground Sea
    1 [GUR] Swamp
    1 [GUR] Island
    4 [TE] Wasteland
    3 [ON] Flooded Strand
    4 [ON] Polluted Delta
    3 [R] Tropical Island

// Creatures
    4 [MI] Phyrexian Dreadnought
    4 [FUT] Tombstalker
    3 [FUT] Tarmogoyf

// Spells
    4 [SC] Stifle
    4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
    4 [NE] Daze
    4 [AL] Force of Will
    3 [VI] Vision Charm
    4 [LRW] Ponder
    4 [IA] Brainstorm
    3 [MM] Snuff Out

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 3 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 3 [R] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 2 [DIS] Trygon Predator
SB: 3 [RAV] Dark Confidant

---

Green gives additional threads in Tarmogoyf and better sideboard options. The manabase is weakened though.

3. Overview

DreadStalker is an aggro-control deck emphasised on aggro. It tries to disrupt the opponent, while playing huge undercosted threads and rides them to victory, before an opponent can recover.

The deck isn’t just hit and hopes though. With the cantrip engine and free counters it can forge its hand to make sure threads resolve and survive. It can also punish weak manabases with its manadenial package.

4. Card selection

4.1 Maindeck

Manabase
This deck can operate on very few lands. With the supreme cantrip engine it can be played on 18 to 19 lands. The deck uses a high amount of fetchlands to accelerate in Tombstalker. Wasteland is played in most lands, to aid the manadenial.

Creatures
Phyrexian Dreadnought and Tombstalker are the two namesakes of the deck. Both huge, undercosted and can come down very fast. Both ignore most blockers and can race most decks. Tarmogoyf is played in the green splash as third big beater. Sometimes it's weak with Tombstalker though.

Cheaters
Stifle can get Phyrexian Dreadnought into play by countering its CITP ability. Vision Charm does almost the same thing and protects it against Sorcery speed removal. It can also be used as a counter, when Dreadnought is already in play. The mill ability, coupled with a fetchland, makes a second turn Tombstalker possible.

Disruption (non-manadenial)
The basic disruption of blue-tempo decks is Force of Will and Daze. In black the main disruption is Snuff Out and Thoughtseize. DreadStalker supports both colours, so there is no reason not to run the best disruption available.

Disruption (manadenial)
Stifle and Wasteland are almost mandatory. Sinkhole can be played in meta's swarmed with weak manabases. Vision Charm can be used, by changing lands from one colour to another. This can save the day against Wrath of God, Oblivion Ring or Warren Weirding.

Cantrips
The cantrips help finding the few threads in the deck, the mana, or the right disruption. It also helps filling the graveyard for Tombstalker and can be used to make discard less powerful.

4.2 Sideboard

The Sideboard can be metagamed against almost anything. The green splash has superior choices though.

The deck normally plays at least 3 Blue Elemental Blasts to fight Goblins, Goyfsligh and Dragon Stompy. A number of Pithing Needle against Survival of the Fittest, Sensei's Divining Top and Pernicious Deed. At least 3 spots for graveyard hate like Tormod's Crypt, Leyline of the Void or Extirpate.

The rest of the sideboard can be extra removal, extra draw or cards specific for certain matchups (like Winter Orb against mono-coloured control)

4.3 Other possibilities

Creatures
As already named tarmogoyf is an option, but Sea Drake, Serendib Efreet or Dark Confidant can be used for the blue-black version. White can be splashed for Meddling Mage too.
Cheaters
Trickbind comes to mind. On 2 mana makes it a little weaker then Stifle, but can’t be countered easily, which is nice.

Disruption (non-manadenial)
Additional counters like Misdirection and Spell Snare can be used. They help winning counter wars. Engineered Explosives, Smother and Diabolic Edict help against heavy creature decks or mirror-like decks like Team America.

Disruption (manadenial)
Trickbind again. Here it's much worse then Stifle, due to the manacost of two though.

4.4 Cards that don't belong

Pernicious Deed, At least not MD. It's far to slow to use reliable with so few lands. It might be possible in the SB, if the meta is swarmed with weenie decks or Enchantress.
Duress. There are very few decks, that can use more than 4 targeted discard spells and this isn't one of them.

5. Matchups

The testing is done with the UBg list posted above. 10 games where played pre-board, 20 post-board.

5.1 UWb Landstill
Pre-board quite even
Post-board Slightly favourable

Pre-board the matchup is a coin toss. Will the Landstill player find enough removal for your threads or can you keep him of balance long enough. Try to get an early thread and disrupt the Landstill player as much as possible. If you can keep the opponent from four mana for long enough you probably win. If you try to win with Phyrexian Dreadnought or Tarmogoyf, you might want to keep a Stifle in hand to stop Engineered Explosives though.

Post-board it gets a little better, because you can bring in more then they can. They might bring in some graveyard hate though. Dark Confidant is great in the attrition war. Trygon Predator deals with Standstill and Extirpate can randomly screw the opponent, especially by removing Swords to Plowshare.

Cards to watch out for are Swords to Plowshare, Force of Will, Standstill, and Engineered Explosives

Boarding
-3 Snuff Outs
-1 Wasteland
-2 Ponder
-1 Vision Charm
-1 Phyrexian Dreadnought

+3 Dark Confidant
+3 Extirpate
+2 Trygon Predator

5.2 UGbw Threshold
Pre-board Favourable
Post-board Slightly favourable

There manabase is weak, it's easily disreputable. Keep them of white if you can so they can't cast Swords to Plowshare or Vindicate. I found the biggest thread in this matchup Dark Confidant. Once it resolves it can't be dealt with and shifts the match a little in their direction every turn. Counterbalance was a lot less worrying. Sure a turn one Sensei's Divining Top, turn two Counterbalance wins the game, but it happened less then I thought.

Post-board it becomes a little worse. Krosan Grip makes Phyrexian Dreadnought less reliable. Trygon Predator comes in to deal with Counterbalance, Engineered Explosives and their Trygon Predators. Pithing Needle is mainly used to stop Sensei's Divining Top, but can randomly hit Engineered Explosives. The single Dark Confidant, seems random but it worked well.

Cards to watch out for are Force of Will, Swords to Plowshare, Dark Confidant

Boarding
-1 Swamp
-2 Ponder
-1 Phyrexian Dreadnought
-1 Vision Charm

+2 Trygon Predator
+2 Pithing Needle
+1 Dark Confidant

5.3 UBw ANT
Pre-board Favourable
Post-board Favourable

Aggro-control beats combo, it's a simple as that. Big creatures beat combo decks, that wants to have an as high life total as possible before going off. Don't let your guard down though. It's a very powerful deck that can power out some unlikely wins, if piloted by the right player. Orim's is your biggest problem. Duress is easier dealt with.
Post-board it stays the same. Extirpate is better then Snuff Out against them. Dark Confidant might be boarded in, but it won't help much.

Cards to watch out for are Orim's Chant, Ad Nauseam, Duress

Boarding
-3 Snuff Out

+3 Extirpate

5.4 RGb Aggroloam
Pre-board Even
Post-board Slightly unfavourable

Both decks can get some pretty sick starts. Pre-board Phyrexian Dreadnought is the all-star of the deck, almost unstoppable. Beware of Burning Wish to Shattering Spree and you should be fine. Tombstalker is a little worse, because it can be raced. It's harder to remove him though. Tarmogoyf is weak, because it most likely gets stalled by Terravore or Countryside Crusher. On the other hand, the Loam player can pull out some fast wins though and early Crusher might get out hand to fast with Loam shenanigans. Chalice for one is a really big problem too.
Post-board it gets a little worse. Extirpate isn't the best hate against them and Krosan Grip deals with the all-star. Try to use Thoughtseize before playing Phyrexian Dreadnought and hop it will win the game. Because Stifle is weaker then Vision Charm, a single copy is boarded out for SB options

Cards to watch out for are Chalice of the Void, Burning Wish, and Countryside Crusher

Boarding
-4 Ponder
-1 Phyrexian Dreadnought
-1 Stifle

+3 Extirpate
+3 Blue Elemental Blast

5.5 Rgb Goblins
Pre-board Slightly unfavourable
Post-board Unfavourable

This is not a nice matchup. They can ignore our counters with Vial and Goblin Lackey, are able to race and has quite some MD answers to Phyrexian Dreadnought. Phyrexian Dreadnought is still the best way to win pre-board. Vision Charm protects it from Warren Weirding and Tin-Street Hooligan. Tarmogoyfs is great to stall the ground, but because the lack of removal it might not be enough to win it.
Post-board it gets even worse. Krosan Grip comes to really stop Phyrexian Dreadnought. Blue Elemental Blasts might help a little, but they can't kill Goblin Piledriver won't stop vialed Goblin Ringleaders. It is great to stop Lackey though, and slow them down to a pace which the deck can handle.

Cards to watch out for Goblin Lackey, Warren Weirding, Goblin Warchief

Boarding
-1 Wasteland
-3 Ponder
-1 Thoughtseize

+3 Blue Elemental Blast
+2 Pithing Needle

6. Rules

Phyrexian Dreadnought
- Reverted to its original wording, this now has a comes-into-play triggered ability. During resolution of the triggered ability, you choose one option or the other.
- Phasing in does not trigger "comes into play" abilities, so you don't have to sacrifice again if it phases in. 502.15d


7. Q&A

To be written

Reserved if OP gets out of hand.

BB

I note that you left out the UBg lists. So I want to share the two UBg lists I've been switching between...

// Lands
2 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [UN] Underground Sea
2 [UN] Tropical Island
1 [UN] Bayou
1 [ON] Island

// Creatures
4 [MI] Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [FUT] Tombstalker

// Spells
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [NE] Daze
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
4 [LRW] Ponder
4 [IA] Brainstorm
4 [SC] Stifle
3 [VI] Vision Charm
3 [MM] Snuff Out

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [MM] Snuff Out
SB: 2 [OD] Divert
SB: 4 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 4 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 4 [DK] Tormod's Crypt

I also switch over to this build on occasion...

1 Island
1 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland

4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Tombstalker

2 Vision Charm
4 Stifle
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Thoughtseize
2 Snuff Out

The main advantage of the UBg splash in Dreadstalker is being able to play a reasonable number of threats. As compared to the downright anemic eight threats that TA and decks like Dreadstill and even Thresh play. Many games, you might not even have a threat to cast till mid-late game. And even when you do, you're liable to get the one threat that you do find either StPed, or lost during a counterwar over the creature itself. And if your first threat does get taken out, stolen or matched up vs. their own, you'll be scarmbling like a chicken with it's head cut off to try to find one of the other 7 threats left in the deck, and won't always be able to in time.

In a format where every decent deck plays 4 StP/Snuff Out and 2-4 other removal spells, playing just 8 threats is just asking to get screwed over by poor topdecks imo. The meta is already adjusting to a point where StP, Snuff Out, Edicts and such see a very heavy amount of play in maindecks everywhere to deal with fast threats and decks that are very light on threats.

Edit: Nevermind, I see you've added a UBg list.

Here's my list. I played for hours on MWS and didn't lose a single match (I'm not boasting. I was close to losing a few but pulled through).


MU I faced:
UGr Tempo Thresh
Countersliver
X-land Stompy
Burn
ANT
Aggro Loam
Goblins



Here's the decklist:

Lands (19)
3 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
4 Underground Sea
1 Swamp
1 Island

Creatures (10)
4 Tombstalker
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
2 Trinket Mage

Counters/Disruption (19)
4 Thoughtseize
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
2 Vision Charm
1 Engineered Explosives

Cantrips//draw (12)
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Standstill


Sideboard (15)
3 Divert
4 Extirpate
2 Hydroblast
3 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Pithing Needle


MU analysis:
I'll give a rough MU analysis on what were the defining changes that made me feel this deck is stronger)
MU I faced:

UGr Tempo Thresh:
It was basically war to establish a stable mana base. Turn 1 Fetches into basics were important. I got lucky here with Stifling his fetches/wastes and wasting key lands to stop him from getting Green.

When he did resolve a Goyf, it was around turns 3-4 where I was confident with resolving a Tombstalker safely. And as always Goyf stares blankly into Tombstalker. Tombstalker is almost usually 1 power larger than goyf. This is where I think the Mishra Factories shined. They were useless since they can only chump goyf, but once out with a Tombstalker, you can swing in with Tombstalker, chump Goyfs and clock out the Thresh player.

Conclusion: Mongeese isn't big enough to do anything against Dread Stalker. My list had Factories, which can trade with the Mongeese, or put the thresh player on a clock with Tombstalker out, while chumping goyfs. Resolved Dreadnought = GG, unless they're playing UGw Thresh.

Thoughtseize is absolutely cheating in this deck. It tells you when it's safe to resolve Nought. This is a strength that traditional UR Dreadstill does not possess. I've played Dreadstill and many times I crack my head thinking of possibilities the opponents can do against my creatures, worried for a 2 for 1. Thoughtseize takes all that away and optimizes your play of threats.

Countersliver:
This was an interesting MU. I think Counterslivers just gets destroyed by EE.dec. 2 Trinket Mage fetched for EE in 2 games, and ended it fast. The main issue here is their StPs. I didn't play out anything in turn 3-4 since I seized his Force, leaving him with 1 StP, 2 Spell Snares (lol does nothing against this deck). I ended up wasting Tundra (his only source of white) and safely casted a Dreadnought. I was low on life, but again, I could afford to swing with Dreadnought instead of leaving him to block, while letting my factories chump.

Standstill was amazing if they do not resolve a Vial. Playing Dreadstalker, you have many ways for Vial. Thoughtseize, Daze, FOW are all there to kill it. They simply just do not have enough to deal with EE since Countersliver is only effective with a board position, so focus on denying their board position.

Conclusion: I can't stress that without factories, I would have been forced to a position to stall out with Dreadnought as a blocker at low life, leaving them a chance to recover board position. with Factories as early beaters, and as chump blockers in the mid-game, you can immediately put the pressure by swinging with Nought rather than leaving him to block. That's the important thing I noted about the Dread Stalker shell. 8 threats is simply not enough to play out smoothly. The UBg Stalker lists with Goyfs are good since they run 12 threats, but this is about UB stalker with Standstills, and obviously Factories + Standstill is an automatic inclusion. Here, we really see the Factories function as both threat and pseudo clock (i.e. they clock your opponent by allowing your threats to attack when they could not have attacked).

X-land Stompy (shitty deck IMO).
I lost to 2 games due to berserk and double Seals. I guess Dreadstill with Countertop will rape its ass, but I don't have Countertop. I won the other games though, by resolving turn 2 Dreadnought and Seizing early creatures and FOWing their remaining creature. X-land Stompy is uesless without creatures, and when you resolve a dreadnought, their creatures become next to nothing.

They really can't deal with Standstill either especially when a factory is out in play. I must say that Divert is very fun to play against X-land stompy who doesn't have mana to pay for the divert cost. Directing a Berserk to a summoning sicked creature is lots of fun lol, or berserking your factories and killing their creature is funny too.

Burn
Lost pre-board most of the time since this deck runs non-basics (PoP kills), Fetches and Seizes (imagined if you ran Snuff out too, ouch). Post board was just a winner. Our anti-crusher and anti-goblin cards become 1 mana burn counters. Standstill is most brutal against them. The traditional Dread Stalker list without Standstill would not have been a better matchup since you will run out of counters against them. Standstill also digs deeper for resolving Nought.

Post-sideboard, it'll look like:
3 Divert
4 Daze
4 FOW
4 Thoughtseize
2 Hydroblast
3 Blue Elemental Blast
(4 Standstill, drawing yet more counters)
Too much answer for burn to handle.


ANT
All I can say is that divert is tech against Orim's Chant.
Factories were key for me since they added pressure to their Nauseaus life clock.
Pre-SB was tougher, and they tend to go off before you can clock their Nauseaus life out.
Extirpates on resolved Mystical Tutor is brutal.

Aggro-Loam
Post board BEB and hydroblast owns everything
Stalker and Dreadnought aren't afraid of anything they play except if you're unlucky and they get a 15/15 crusher. That happened for me. I chumped with 2 Factories.

Standstill again was really amazing in drawing more cards and answers, and clock them with Stalker/Dreadnought.


Explanation of the deck philosophy.
I've started out with Traditional UB Tombstalker with 4 Snuff Outs, and swapped those out to Sinkholes, hybrdizing a Team America Build with Dreadnoughts instead of Goyf. I never liked TA, since Green was mostly splashed for Goyf. Having played against many MU with UGr Thresh, I realized that Tombstalker >>> Goyf.

The strength of TA is actually Tombstalker. Goyf puts a pressure on the board but that Green dude just dies to EVERYTHING. At least Tombstalker doesn't die to Threads, Smothers, Snuff Outs, Deeds, EEs, Moats etc. He also flies, which break stalls. Lastly, Tombstalker also has the potential to weaken a Goyf by delving.

Therefore Stalker is a must in this deck, as confirmed by all the people who have tested hard on the Dread Stalker thread. The reason why this deck can pack 4 Dreadnoughts whereas many Dreadstill players pack 2-3 Dreadnought is because we have Vision Charm which acts us Stifles 5-8. Vision Charm's ability are all crucial to the deck, and milling for 4 to fuel an early Tombstalker protected by Counterspells puts out a fast clock. Dread Stalker has far more synergy with Stifle than TA does, and Dread Stalker has far more explosive plays with Dreadnought than Dreadstill does.

So where's the weakness of Dreadstalker?

Comparing with TA and Dreadstill, I found that the weakness in Dread Stalker is card advantage. I reverted back to the old Dreadstill list and played a UB version of it with Countertop. I was annoyed that the deck won a lot of games, but at the same time was sitting with an empty threat density. The problem that Dreadstill player has most of the time is running either low on Dreadnought or Stifle, and resulting to beat with Factories. I analyzed the card choices for Dreadstill and realized a crucial difference. Dreadstill refused to forgo the Countertop engine since it fits flawlessly with the deck's CMC.

However, I've made the decision to take the Countertop engine out, and included 4 Tombstalker, thus hybridizing UB Dreadstill and Dread Stalker.

This made up for the weakness of Dread Stalker. The list I play follows the idea of Dread Stalker closely, countering and setting up the graveyard or hand to play a protected Tombstalker or Dreadnought. However, other than just relying on resolving these 2 pieces, the deck can play out the Landstill way. Dropping Factories and Standstill while sculpting a hand to play out more threats and drawing into more countermagic. This has proven to be very optimal in my testing since setting up Tombstalkers and Dreadnought requires about 2-4 turns depending on the decks you play against. Standstill not only helped me to play a different route, but it was in the idea of sculpting a protected hand to lay out threats, or simply draw more cards to win the mid-game.

Many lists run 3-4 Vision Charms but in my testing, 2 is sufficient. There are many times I wished the Vision Charms were simply counterspell or Ponders/Brainstorm. Having multiples of Vision/Stifle is not useful if Dreadnought/Stalker isn't around. I would very much prefer a proactive hand than an active hand.

The list I played above has the same shell as Dread Stalker, with the only replacement being removing 4 Snuff Out/Sinkhole for 4 Standstill, and adding a colorless mana-base of Factories and Wastelands. The mana-base is destabilized but I had no mana-troubles out of the 30 games I've tested. The only issue is I would really want to squeeze the last Wasteland to add it up to 20 lands (a good number for a still.dec) but I really don't know what to cut in the MD. I did not choose to play Snuff Out due to the philosophy:

Once Tombstalker/Dreadnought resolves, you don't need to worry about creatures attacking you. It ends in 2-4 turns depending if opponents fetched, lost life etc. Mishra Factories help stall out the early game and provides other flexible answers to the deck. Therefore I feel that Snuff Out is unnecessary in the deck. Swarm aggro is our weakness, and the relevant cards to deal with that include the BEBs. Merfolk would be a pain, but EE would be a great help @2.

Regarding the sideboard. 4 Extirpates is NECESSARY. ANT is getting more and more popular, but all you need to do is Extirpate their Mystical Tutor after they tutored, reshuffling Ad Nauseam and setting them back many turns. With 4 Thoughtseize, and 8 Counters, 4 Extirpates, my ANT matchups were 70-30.

Divert is a SB card that I highly recommend in a meta of Threshold, TA and ANT. It's not great against Landstill, MUC but in decks that pack tight mana consumption, it is simply amazing. I've diverted a thoughtseize, a Hymn, a Sinkhole, a STP and many other spells. It's usefullness extends to the mid-game which is fine since this deck seeks to win pre-mid game or latest mid-mid game. And Divert is tech against opposing Orim's Chant, of which I won 2 matches out of the 5 ANT games I played.

In general, I advocate the use of Standstill again in the shell. It's not Dreadstill because Dreadstill is defined by the inclusion of Countertop. Countertop is against the philosophy of this deck. The aims of this deck isn't to stall and lock out via control, but to land the biggest and meanest threat in Legacy safely for 2-3 turns, and win via the clock. Standstill doesn't do that philosophy perfectly, but it helps the philosophy by providing another alternate way to draw/protect/beat, gain tempo for the early and mid game.

Now, with a total of 4 Factories, 4 Stalkers, 4 Dreadnought, 2 Trinket Mage, the threat density has increased to a potential of 14. A very sexy number. Sure, Goyf >>>> Trinket Mage and Factories, but honestly, Goyf is answered much more than anything else in Legacy, and Splashing green destabilizes the manabase as much, if not more than playing with Standstills and Factories and Wastelands.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by crz87

In general, I advocate the use of Standstill again in the shell. It's not Dreadstill because Dreadstill is defined by the inclusion of Countertop. Countertop is against the philosophy of this deck. The aims of this deck isn't to stall and lock out via control, but to land the biggest and meanest threat in Legacy safely for 2-3 turns, and win via the clock. Standstill doesn't do that philosophy perfectly, but it helps the philosophy by providing another alternate way to draw/protect/beat, gain tempo for the early and mid game.

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Not all Dreadstill lists run Countertop. There have been decks we've tested with Tombstalker maindeck in Dreadstill, although none of us gave it too much testing. Dreadstill is defined by the inclusion of Standstill, that's why it's called Dreadstill and not DreadTop. Also, Thoughtseize < Spell snare in your deck. Ripping 3 off of Standstill then being able to Snare is sooo good. Whereas Seize is dead under Standstill.

You have a very long and detailed primer, but other than that why does this deck deserved to be in Established Decks? Has there been any proven results? Any Top 8's? If so please post some links to them.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by darkalucard

Any Top 8's? If so please post some links to them.

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Here

crz87:

Great if it works for you, but 19 lands with 7 colourless is to few for my taste. You might want to drop a Dreadnought, because it's tutorable, for another land.

I tested Standstill in the list as well and wasn't satisfied. This deck is a little more aggressive then DreadStill and Standstill can hamper your own development. Standstill is still a powerfull card though, so testing is worth it.

Don't you miss any answers against Humilty or Moat in your Sideboard?

I will test it agains with your list with the following changes:

-1 Phyrexian Dreadnought
-1 Wasteland
-4 Thoughtseize
-1 Ponder

+4 Spell Snare( as suggested by Roodmistah)
+2 Island( 14 coloured lands is still low though)
+1 Pithing Needle

Roodmistah:

Can you give the list? I agree for the rest of the post.

darkalucard:

It topped eight in touranaments, but it doesn't actually need any to be posted in established.

Kabal:

Thanks I will post them in the opening post. I also will add some rules about Vision Charm too.

BB

sorry but how can Goblin be a bad matchup for UB? Just play 4 Enginereed Plague in SB

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Poron

sorry but how can Goblin be a bad matchup for UB? Just play 4 Enginereed Plague in SB

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Goblins (and other tribal decks) can often play around Engineered Plagues because of their lords. I suggest Infest (or Hideous Laughter if you insist on playing an instant) as a more viable choice to kill off Goblins, unfortunately, this is ofcourse a one time shot instead of a permanent effect.

Also, Goblins is packing a load of Blue hate in the sideboard.

@Benie: Yeah, I've been doing heavy testing with the list, and I'm thinking of upping the land count to 20, and playing with 7 colorless.

I'm not sold on the -4 Thoughtseize. They are incredibly powerful on turn 1, taking away a Force or a removal and setting up for turn 2 dreadnought. You are right that my deck isn't as aggresive as Dreadstalker, but the threat density is much higher than Dreadstill, and in all honesty, it plays very well. Countertop seems too much investment to set up. Dreadstill plays like the combo/control player while Dreadstalker plays as the aggressive/control player. The list I conjured is in between.

Anyway, more to be tested, but Spell Snare does fit the curve and nature of the deck much better than thoughtseize. I might end up cutting:
-1 Ponder
-1 Thoughtseize
-1 Dreadnought

+3 Spell Snare

I usually don't have problem with 13 colored lands (20lands with 3 waste, 4 factories). stifles do a lot for the deck against wasteland. HOWEVER, my Stax matchups were HORRIBLE. Once crucible comes online, it's pretty much game over unless Stalker is in play. My latest list splashes 1 Trop to activate EE at 3 to kill creatures such as crushers/trygon/crucible etc. And the 1 Trop lets me play 2 Trygon Predator sideboard. Not sure if it's worth the risk.

Tombstalker >>> any other creature I've seen in the deck. He's ALWAYS 2 mana for a 5/5. He escapes dazes super and seriously puts a 3-4 turn clock all by himself. I'm definitely enjoying the Standstills in turn 2 (uncountered) or the mid-game stalls.

To all the people testing the number of vision charms. I found 2 to be ideal. 3 Vision charms upped the chances of them sitting useless in my hand except to mill for 5 cards to fuel an anticipated or topdecked tombstalker. 2 has been the perfect number for me, with 4 Dreadnought and 4 Stilfe + 2 Vision Charm, the number is great.

Any idea what the UB list can do against Stax, or worse, against MUC? The only thing I am happy with the UB Dreadstill Stalker list that I made is that it makes the MUC matchup better since Factories add pressure. But a B2B will kill everything.

You may want to post that list in the Dreadstill thread, I find it very interesting to say the least.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Poron

sorry but how can Goblin be a bad matchup for UB? Just play 4 Enginereed Plague in SB

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A particular list was tested that wasn't metagames against Goblins/Merfolks and Faeries.

Sure if I had 40 spaces in my sb I would play 4 Engineered Plague, 4 Darkblast, 4 Blue Elemental Blast, 4 Hydroblast and totally kille Goblins.

So for my build it's not favorable, because there isn't that much goblins in my meta.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Skeggi

Goblins (and other tribal decks) can often play around Engineered Plagues because of their lords. I suggest Infest (or Hideous Laughter if you insist on playing an instant) as a more viable choice to kill off Goblins, unfortunately, this is ofcourse a one time shot instead of a permanent effect.

Also, Goblins is packing a load of Blue hate in the sideboard.

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I don't know... Engineered Plague seems the best against Goblins and Faeries. Quite hard to remove and Lords are played less this days. It totally nukes faeries Bitter Blossom.

Against Merfolk your choices are better though, because of there eight lords.

BB

Engineered plague is really good right now. There are alot of tribal themed decks running around at the moment, gobs/elves/merfolk, and faeries to a lesser extent. They are good against other decks as well, because of splash damage

Hi went to a tourney last weekend with 9 persons :rolleyes:

Anyway there where only 5 Established decks, the rest was scrub. I played my list from the OP

Match 1 against Mono-Green.

This was nothing special, it was his first deck and there where alot of one-off's and odd choices in the deck. I won game 1 of a Tarmogoyf and a Dreadnought.
Game 2 I went turn two Dreadnought, turn 3 Dreadnought win. The fourth turn I could cast my Tombstalker.

1-0(2-0)
Boarding: none

Match 2 against MBAC

Another not really top-deck, but he played about 15/20 creature destructions. I lost game one after seeing my Dreadnought, Tarmogoyf and Tombstalker die due to various Edicts effect and Ichorid beats.
He gave me game 2. He was on 4 life and I'm on 7 with on my side a Phyrexian Dreadnought, a Dark Confidant(tapped) and Tombstalker(tapped). He had a Hypnotic Specter. It was his turn and he scooped, while he could beat me to 5 and I had a Force of Will on top of my library. Game 3 was fast with a turn 2 Dark Confidant helped by a Phyrexian Dreadnought.

2-0(4-1-0)
Boarding: -3 Snuff Out, -2 Ponder, -1 Thoughtseize, +3 Dark Confidant, +3 Extirpate

Match 3 against TES

After a mix-up game 1 we decide to draw the match. We played it out anyway for fun and he wins 2-1.

2-0-1(4-1-1)

Match 4 against Ichorid

I know what he plays and keep an aggresive hand. I started with Delta, he Draws and discards GGT. I play a second turn Phyrexian Dreadnought. On his turn he dredges into nothing and playes Cephalid Coliseum and Lion's Eye Diamond. I Daze the Diamond and he pays with his Coliseum. I beat him to seven and use Vision Charm on his upkeep on LED. He uses Coliseum in response but dredges into nothing.
Game 2 I keep a hand with Force of Will in hand. He starts with Carefull Study, wich hit my Force of Will. A second turn Breakthrough gets hit by a topdecked FoW. From there I land double Tarmogoyf, wich seals the deal, while he is trying to get to 8 cards to DDD.

3-0-1(6-1-1)
Boarding: -3 Snuff Out, +3 Extirpate( I should have boarded Dark Confidant for Daze too, probably.)

All in all I'm quite happy with my list, but I will swap Pates out for Tormod's Crypt next time.

BB

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Benie Bederios

Cheaters
Stifle can get Phyrexian Dreadnought into play by countering its CITP ability. Vision Charm does almost the same thing and protects it against Sorcery speed removal. It can also be used as a counter, when Dreadnought is already in play. The mill ability, coupled with a fetchland, makes a second turn Tombstalker possible.

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Dont get the part with sorcery speed removal. It protects it very good against instand- non split second removal.

I still think that the best approach to Nought / Stifle is a control shell. Its just to easy to get 2-1nd and you would fare better with just Tombstalker and Tarmo in an aggresive shell.
This said and considering the results of GP Chicago i am reevaluating the black splash for Dreadstill. I post in this thread because i intend to remove the Standstills from this hypothetical list.

The core would look like this:

3-4 Nought
4 Dark Confidant
2 Tombstalker
0-2 Trinket Mage

3-4 Counterbalance
3-4 SDT

4 Fow
4 BS
4 Stifle
0-2 Trickbind
x Spell Snare / Thoughtseize
1-2 EE

20-21 land
May cut Mishra's here, because of the lack fo Standstills and the increased SDT count may allow to cut a land. This manabase could support an additional Wasteland, maybe an Academy Ruins or a basic Swamp with Back to Basics from the board.

Thoughts?

You're probably better off just cutting the spot removal slot from Threshold and running the Stifle/Nought package with the full 8 U cantrips. If you're running Goyf and Bob, I'd automatically run Volrath's Stronghold along with Sensei's Divining Top because the card is nutty fucking good in the aggro-control mirrors. Along with Academy Ruins for either Sensei's Divining Top or Engineered Explosives, it's pretty much the Legacy equivalent of playing Library of Alexandria in old Vintage control mirrors.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HdH_Cthulhu

Dont get the part with sorcery speed removal. It protects it very good against instand- non split second removal.

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I didn't expres myself clearly. I meant to say if you use Vision Charm to cheat Dreadnought into play, it's protected that turn against sorcery speed removal too.

After that I mentioned it's a counter if Nought is already in play.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by deadlock

I still think that the best approach to Nought / Stifle is a control shell. Its just to easy to get 2-1nd and you would fare better with just Tombstalker and Tarmo in an aggresive shell.
This said and considering the results of GP Chicago i am reevaluating the black splash for Dreadstill. I post in this thread because i intend to remove the Standstills from this hypothetical list.

The core would look like this:

3-4 Nought
4 Dark Confidant
2 Tombstalker
0-2 Trinket Mage

3-4 Counterbalance
3-4 SDT

4 Fow
4 BS
4 Stifle
0-2 Trickbind
x Spell Snare / Thoughtseize
1-2 EE

20-21 land
May cut Mishra's here, because of the lack fo Standstills and the increased SDT count may allow to cut a land. This manabase could support an additional Wasteland, maybe an Academy Ruins or a basic Swamp with Back to Basics from the board.

Thoughts?

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The problem I found with Counterbalance is, that Tombstalker( and Force of Will) messes up your curve. Looking at your list the 2 CC spot is underpresent and you have 27/29 cards that fall of the curve( Lands, Force of Will, Engineered Explosives and Tombtalker).

The mainreason I don't play Counterbalance though, because it's slow. The nice thing about DreadStalker that it can win before most hate comes online. With LD it can outrun Pernicious Deed and Wrath of God. Your deck only got 4 outs against a Wrath of God and Humility.

My build has 12 outs against Wrath of God. Sure CB is good in stopping Swords to Plowshare, but that's about it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BreathWeapon

You're probably better off just cutting the spot removal slot from Threshold and running the Stifle/Nought package with the full 8 U cantrips. If you're running Goyf and Bob, I'd automatically run Volrath's Stronghold along with Sensei's Divining Top because the card is nutty fucking good in the aggro-control mirrors. Along with Academy Ruins for either Sensei's Divining Top or Engineered Explosives, it's pretty much the Legacy equivalent of playing Library of Alexandria in old Vintage control mirrors.

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Just would you still play Tombstalker? And Nimble Mongoose? Not sure how the list would look like. With Tarmogoyf I like the spot removal though. Tombstalker and Phyrexian Dreanought can ignore most creatures, but having a Goyf Stand-off, when it's your only tread is risky.

BB

Because this deck wants to be so aggressive, I think that Chrome Mox would be a perfect fit. It allows you to power out a turn one Dreadnought. It also lets you Thoughtseize and Cantrip at the same time. The disadvantage of losing a card to the imprint doesn't seem like that big a deal, considering that this deck is meant to overpower the opponent. That the deck runs so many one and two-drops makes Chrome Mox even better.

Dark Confidant also seems like a good choice. The extra card draw seems very helpful, and this deck should not mind the pain too much. I'm thinking something like this:

4 Underground Sea
6 Fetch
4 Basics
4 Chrome Mox

4 Dreadnought
4 Tombstalker
4 Dark Confidant

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Thoughtseize
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Stifle
4 Vision Charm
2 Open slots (Duress, Snuff Out, Sinkhole, Trickbind, etc.)