[Report] Top 2 Split at The Grid with Evolution Thresh

After driving an hour out of the way to pick up Tom (J.V.) and Cicio we were well on our way. Cicio and I already knew we were playing Evolution thresh which is a 4c Thresh list that has been tweaked quite a bit over the last couple of months. To give you some history about the list I take you back to TMLO.

Original list thanks to Brandon LePage: http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=21764

I was sick of playing dreadstill at Wednesday legacy so I decided to build something new. I didn't have needles for the maindeck at the time and I never liked spell snare much as a card. So this was the list at the time.

creature [10]
2 Mystic Enforcer
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
instant [19]
4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Swords to Plowshares
sorcery [4]
4 Ponder
enchantment [3]
3 Counterbalance
artifact [3]
3 Sensei's Divining Top
land [19]
3 Flooded Strand
1 Forest
1 Island
3 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island
1 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
58 cards

was what I ended up with but still had two slots and the tournament was starting in 1 minute so I randomly grabbed two cryptic commands and threw them in figuring whatever. By the end of the tournament the 5 times I cast command I either won the game because of it or seriously helped me including a time where I countered a standstill and bounced a dreadnought.

One of the things I noticed even more was how amazing counterbalance is. Like seriously people if you play this card play four of them. For awhile we cut a land for the 4th CB but I noticed between the 4 color mana base and the high cc cards you really want the 19th land. I have never been a fan of 61 cards but I honestly think it's fine in this deck.

After the last hadley where both me and josh missed top 8 in the last round where we both had to play it out due to the unusually high number of draws (thanks 8 landstill players). Josh noticed two things first Cryptic while potentially game breaking wasn't really necessary and second he wanted a 3cc for Counterbalance.

One of the things Cryptic Command did so well was really hurt most CB decks like Threshold and Dreadstill. Trygon predator was also an answer for CB but against dreadstill if it hit play it was essentially game over. Trygon also is great against decks like dragon/faerie stompy and stax.

So here is the list we agreed upon for The Grid Mox tournament:

creature [12]
2 Trygon Predator
2 Mystic Enforcer
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
instant [19]
4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Swords to Plowshares
sorcery [4]
4 Ponder
enchantment [4]
4 Counterbalance
artifact [3]
3 Sensei's Divining Top
land [19]
3 Flooded Strand
1 Forest
1 Island
3 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island
1 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
Total Cards [61]

Sideboard:
3 Krosan Grip
3 Threads of Disloyalty
4 Red Elemental Blast
2 Blue Elementa Blast
3 Gaddock Teeg

The sideboard is still a work in progress and there are plenty of cards we are still considering.


When it comes to remembering matches I'm quite terrible at it but heres a quick recap:

Round 1 vs Ben Nash playing [RG Aggro Loam]

game1: His start is something like turn 1 land mox burning wish for loam. I drop top and pass. He fetches and plays another mox then casts seismic assault. I drop a CB but can not find a 2cc on top to stop his loam craziness and he takes game 1.

game2: My hand is busted with 2 land ponder counterbalance Grip Trygon and Tarmogoyf. I play land ponder (drawing a land) and he drops turn 1 Chalice for one. I play tarmogoyf. Eventually I end up gripping an Assault and dropping trygon that kills chalice and lets me CB lock him.

game3: This game was kinda of stupid. I mull and keep a risky two lander with 2 cantrips 1 Tarmogoyf and an STP. He plays mountain pass and I'm happy to not see chalice turn 1. I ponder and shuffle away a pathetic 3 cards. He EOT cycles and wastes my land. I play another land and pass. He draws and wastes my land I brainstorm needing some land and find my one island and another ponder good enough for me. I play Island and another ponder and have an interesting choice when I see basic forest. I decide to draw a force of will from ponder and leave the forest for my next draw step. On his turn he drops ancient tomb and Bloodmoon and I rejoice knowing I have both the basics in my deck. In the turns to come I drop 2 Tarmogoyfs and hes stuck on two red land with a hand full of green cards.

2-1

Josh playing identical maindeck draws with Aaron (b4r0n) who was playing 4c Surival.

Round 2 vs. Guy I don't know playing [UGR Thresh]

His list was interesting it had CB top and Stifle/waste

I love this matchup for the most part because he plays 8 creatures and 0 STPs. I play 12 creatures and 4 STPs.

Game1: We trade our turn 1 Mongooses. and he wastes my land and stifles my next fetch and drops a top. I eventually get another land resolve a top. We both spend a lot of time topping he drops a goose. Eventually I ponder he dazes. I keep taking one from goose. I finally hit my 2nd land and start to drop the 3 tarmogoyfs in my hand. 2 of which get dazed. When the third one sticks I stabalize and eventually drop CB to lock him out of the game once more land come.

Game2: my hand sucked and I should have mulled. He plays turn 1 top which I force and he forces back. I do very little and his turn 3 CB followed by 2 mongooses lead him to victory as for 10 turns I draw 1cc spells and land.

Game3: We are running low on time and I really don't want to draw. He ends up mulling to 4 and My hand is really good. I have 2 Land 2 REB 1 Tarmo CB/TOP. He doesn't do anything while I drop tarmogoyf and CB/TOP. game over.

Josh beat Matt (TrialbyFire) who was playing UGW Thresh

Round 3 vs. Josh Cicio playing Evolution Thresh

Go Figure I'm the only 2-0 to get paired down and it's against a friend who was playing card for card mirror.

Game1: We are pretty back and forth trading mongoose both dropping top STPing each others Goyf but when it came down to it I drew CB first. Eventually he tries to land a Predator but I have a bolt waiting. I remember eventually killing him by attacking 9 times with Predator.

Game2: We go back and forth. He played 2 tops then shuffled one away. I gripped the first just to have him drop top #3 which I also gripped. In the end I drew a lot better than him.

At this point I was a lock for top 8.

Round 4 vs. Edward Dunning playing [RBg Goblins]

His list had some very strange choices skirk prospector, kiki-jiki, Volraths Stronghold, Goblin Tinkerer to name a few.

Game1: He destroyed me with wasteland not because I think the manabase is weak but because all 3 of the lands I played got wasted the turn after.

About now I was regretting taking the pyroclasms out of the sideboard right before the tournament started but oh well.

Game2: I remember being in a winning position at one point where I had a big tarmogoyf and he had two piledrivers. I had 3 swords in my hand and could not draw a fetchland or a tundra. Eventually he terminated the Goyf and the 2 drivers went the distance.

Josh beat Goblins 2-0

Round 5 vs. Ubw Landstill (Rockout) ID

Josh beat UBg Painter (PTPaul) 2-1


And we both make Top 8.

Top 8 vs. Louis playing [Imperial Painter]

Game1: This was kinda an insane game I remember being heavily landscrewed despite Top in play all I know is I stabilized at 1 life because trygon predator killed 3 sword of light and shadow.

Game2: he goes turn 1 painter. I play land go. Turn 2 he plays grindstone I bolt painter at his eot which he pyroblasts. On my turn I play another bolt on painter. On his turn he plays a 2 mana land another painter and grinds me.

Game3: I don't remember much from this game but I believe I had spot removal for every relevent thing he did and then dropped CB/Top to lock him out of the game.

Top 4 vs. Ed Dunning again still playing [RBg Goblins]

I was pretty positive I was about to get another 3rd place I'm so used to it by now.

Game1: He was stuck on 1 land forever but stuck a vial I dropped tarmos and was attacking while he ramped vial and dropped 1 guy a turn. Enventually I had him at 8 but could no longer attack because his counterattack would kill me. I tap out for an enforcer he plays a couple more guys. I'm in a situation where hes attacking for lethal so I think I need a bolt I top at upkeep and find near gin. It wasn't the bolt I was looking for but It was a nimble mongoose and a STP. I draw the mongoose swing for 6 and leave tarmo and goose to block. Hes up to 3 land and casts matron I STP his warchief he gets a kiki-jiki and vials it in making a copy of one of his piledrivers. and attacks. I block two of the drivers and fall to 1 life. On my turn Mystic gets the job done.

Game2: I lost and honestly don't remember any details from this game

Game3: When I'm in these top 4 situations lately I think I play worse just because I expect to get 3rd but oh lady luck shined on me today. I kept a risky hand of land 2bolt stp 2 cantrips tarmo. I get the lands I need keep drawing good despite my numerous attempts to punt the match.

Finals: We split.

After words We flipped a coin to see if we were going to Friendly's or Hooters.
Friendly's won and good times were had.

I'm going to talk to a mod about starting a thread for the deck but I'm not sure if there will be because there are so many thresh threads. Any questions just ask in the thread and I'll do my best to answer them.

Gratz Ben, about time you won a tournament. But yeah, lets get that sideboard finished for the GP.

Congrats on the finish. That's a really cool list. Almost makes me want to play blue again.

The biggest question that I have is: if you had to cut a card to bring the list down to 60, what would it be?

Congrats fow.

I looked the link list.

2 Stp is better than 2 spell snare?

Any mana problems with 4c?

This is a good deck.

I like the 2 color basic structure with light R and W splashes.

How was the Mystic Enforcer? You never mentioned it and I usually cut him nowadays. With CB and Swords the deck (as well as UGw) don't seem to need 2 Enforcers.

I don't like the Lightning Bolts. You never shoot a Bolt to opponent's head, and you never boarded the Red Blasts. So why play red in the first place?

I guess you could just do well with UGw, playing the new Path to Exhile in place of bolts.

Or if you wanted to keep red, why not Fire/Ice in place of Lightning Bolt? Fire/Ice seems better suited in a meta filled with high power level, but low-threat count decks (Team America, DreadStill, etc).

Okay just got back from class I'll try to answer these.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by b4r0n

Congrats on the finish. That's a really cool list. Almost makes me want to play blue again.

The biggest question that I have is: if you had to cut a card to bring the list down to 60, what would it be?

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Thankyou and If I knew the deck would be 60 cards.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Shugyosha

How was the Mystic Enforcer? You never mentioned it and I usually cut him nowadays. With CB and Swords the deck (as well as UGw) don't seem to need 2 Enforcers.

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I love enforcer he is a lategame bomb with evasion but my favorite part is his ability to get around answers (ex counterbalance, EE, Vindicate, Snuff out). He won me my top 4 game against goblins just because of flying. Also although enforcer wasn't hugely relevant in this tournament in the weeks prior he has shown a well deserving spot. Just a note a resolved mystic is basically GG against Team America. There are certain metas where I find him win more but especially in terms of GP I would never want to cut it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Aj-capra

Congrats fow.

I looked the link list.

2 Stp is better than 2 spell snare?

Any mana problems with 4c?

This is a good deck.

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Thank you. Like I said I never really liked spell snare and threshold is an aggro control deck you want to be doing stuff to win the game while swords can win you the game by removing any annoying creature it also clears out blockers which is huge. Swords can help you come back from games you are losing but if you opponent is bashing you with his tarmogoyf and you spellsnare you aren't happy.

As for the manabase I really think it's the best it can be but when running a deck like this you will have some minor mana problems here and there. That's why Top Ponder and Brainstorm usually make up for this. While adding red does weaken the manabase being able to bolt a magus of the moon is a very good thing.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GreenOne

I don't like the Lightning Bolts. You never shoot a Bolt to opponent's head, and you never boarded the Red Blasts. So why play red in the first place?

I guess you could just do well with UGw, playing the new Path to Exhile in place of bolts.

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Although I didn't write it in the report my I bolted my round 2 opponent to death game 1. Lightning bolt gives great reach and is a very amazing card in almost all the matches I've played with the deck. True while it the most sideboarded out card It's usually only being boarded out for REB. Which I did board in more than once (I didn't say what I boarded but I mentioned REB more than once in the actual report) Some key points where bolt saved my ass wasn't until top 8 but anyone watching can attest to how amazing bolt was killing magus' and painters and Jaya. It was the same in the goblin match. As for REB it is one of the best cards in the sideboard and I'm never unhappy to have it when playing any of numerous amounts of blue based decks in the format.

While I find nothing wrong with running UGw and think that Exile would make a pretty good 2 of in those lists I am focusing on keeping this deck 4 color and sans sideboard this is what I'm playing at Chicago.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Arsenal

Or if you wanted to keep red, why not Fire/Ice in place of Lightning Bolt? Fire/Ice seems better suited in a meta filled with high power level, but low-threat count decks (Team America, DreadStill, etc).

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This is very good question and another that I'm afraid I can't give a very good reason on. While fire/ice would be better against decks like Team America and Dreadstill that was not actually the meta. Some minor reason are fire/ice doesn't deal with turn 1 lackey when on the draw. Fire/ice is slower. Fire Ice can't kill a blocking mishras factory. Bolt kills Painter's Servent, Wort, and Sea Drake to name a few.

Last for now kabal pmed the question here's my answer.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kabal

Since I didn't see you reference the below in your tournament report, I thought I'd msg you directly.

How was having 4 bolts? What about Fire/Ice? Or did you find that the extra pt of burn relevant? Why no pyroclasms? Is it because your meta does not have a lot of tribal aggro decks? Regarding the land count, do you feel that 19 is needed? What about the below configuration:

-1 volc
-1 tundra
-1 deleta
+1 flooded strand
+1 Plateau/Savannah

Thanks in advance for all feedback.

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As stated I love bolt and fire/ice question answered above.

Pyroclasm was a last minute cut before the tournament after finding we can beat Goblins without it but will likely end up back in the sideboard for the GP.

As for the landbase I can not agree with those changes. Cutting a land already weakens the manabase but adding another nonblue land just adds to those times when you have cantrips with your nonblue land. I really feel 19 land is needed for these reasons

1. The deck is 4 colors
2. We play cards that cost 4 mana
3. There are many ways to hurt peoples manabases in this format


Sigh glad thats out of the way. If you don't agree with some of my choices I suggest you build the deck with your changes and test then again with out the changes and let me know. As of right every card choice is a lock except for the sideboard which only krosan grip is a lock.

Are you going to throw a playset of Clasms in the board considering all the gobz/merfolk/elves running around these days? I think it would be smart if you intend on going to the GP with that deck.

This is josh, the other person who made top 8 with the deck and have been playing with it a lot the past few weeks. Just to mention again tho Ben already did:

Mystic Enforcer is a house. It just wins games when its in play. It puts your opponent on a clock which is always nice to do. And at worst it can usually block and kill an opponents goyf or what ever else swings your way.

Lightning Bolt wont come out. Its just too good. It gives you the reach you need a lot of times. Ive won plenty of games by finishing off my opponent with a bolt or double bolt. And it can still be used as removal too which is never bad. I dont think path to exile is better than lightning bolt in this deck. If you have the exile and stp and get paired with combo that just sucks and you have that many useless cards vs them.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Roodmistah

Are you going to throw a playset of Clasms in the board considering all the gobz/merfolk/elves running around these days? I think it would be smart if you intend on going to the GP with that deck.

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I know it's a lot of text but this was mentioned.

Ben, I've got to say, I thinking cutting the deck down to 18 lands (losing a fetchland) is probably the right call, Even with the 4 colors and the 4cc cards you should have much trouble keeping all four colors on the board with 7 fetches, 4 brainstorm, 4 ponder, and 3 tops. Statistically the chance of have 4 lands on turn 4 without cantrips or top when you play 61 cards and 19 lands is .31 while playing 60 card and 18 lands is .30 It really isn't a huge difference and with tops, brainstorms, ponders and fetchlands its actually better than that.

I LOVE this list... I have loved trygon predator since it got printed, and am glad to see that this is finally being discovered.

Congratz on the finish, just carry it over to the GP.

Also, Enforcer is rediculous against Team america.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by J.V.

Ben, I've got to say, I thinking cutting the deck down to 18 lands (losing a fetchland) is probably the right call, Even with the 4 colors and the 4cc cards you should have much trouble keeping all four colors on the board with 7 fetches, 4 brainstorm, 4 ponder, and 3 tops. Statistically the chance of have 4 lands on turn 4 without cantrips or top when you play 61 cards and 19 lands is .31 while playing 60 card and 18 lands is .30 It really isn't a huge difference and with tops, brainstorms, ponders and fetchlands its actually better than that.

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This is what I was thinking too.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by thefreakaccident

I LOVE this list... I have loved trygon predator since it got printed, and am glad to see that this is finally being discovered.

Congratz on the finish, just carry it over to the GP.

Also, Enforcer is rediculous against Team america.

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Not like he's the first person to play Trygon Predator in Thresh. The Hatfields played it in some builds, and legacyplayer0 always seems to have one maindeck.

Nothing against ForceofWill.

I am completely astonished there are no Engineered Explosives in this deck at all...... I read it three times to be sure..... Any particular reasoning behind this?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Joe_C

I am completely astonished there are no Engineered Explosives in this deck at all...... I read it three times to be sure..... Any particular reasoning behind this?

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This is from my phone.

E.E. Is a card that has been in and out of our sideboard. One of the biggest reasons to run ee is dealing with counterbalance which trygon already does for us. The other problem josh mentioned was whenever he wanted to ee he usually had to kill something of his. I haven't played with the card in this deck so josh could probably answer this better. My thoughts right now are it's a great card that may still deserve a spot either main or side.

I like the list, and Predz main seems like it could be really good right now. I've been trying out something similar only with no red cards main (Ugwr with red only there for the board cards), which leads me to the only thing I would really change: lightning bolt.

I understand how this can provide reach, and is obviously great against random aggro and goblins decks (although pyroclasm out of the board is probably enough), but against other blue-based aggro control decks and combo it doesn't seem great. Granted you probably would like to play against combo all day long, but the aggro control mirror seems like it's going to be the most popular thing you're going to see. Even spell snare seems a bit more useful, and I really don't like that card very much. At least it can actually deal with counterbalance and tarmogoyfs, as well as stopping standstill/survival/host of other random things. Did you consider dropping the bolts and only running red for the board options of pyroclasm and REB (which are clearly very strong)? Lightning bolt seems like the kind of card that can be totally amazing for you one day, and then complete garbage the next depending on what you play against (although I suppose spell snare can feel like that as well). Any other ideas as to what you'd want to see in the bolt slot if you needed to change it?

Oh yeah, and nice work with the strong finish.

Congrats on the finish, Ben. I like your list, but I have a few questions about it.

Have you considered City of Brass? We've found it incredibly helpful in stabilizing 4- and 5-color manabases.

I also want to echo nitewolf's questioning of Lightning Bolt. I've been consistently underwhelmed with the card lately. Your most important matchups, which are against other aggro-control decks, revolve around Counterbalance, and Lightning Bolt's reach just doesn't help much there.

The 4th Daze, on the other hand, would help win Counterbalance wars. Have you tried to find room for it?

So I went 4-2 getting 9th with this list on sunday.

4 Strand
2 Delta
2 Heath
3 Trop
3 Tundra
2 Volc
1 Island
1 Forest

4 Tarmogoyf
3 Rhox War Monk
2 Trygon Predator
2 Mystic Enforcer

4 Force of Will
3 Daze
3 Spell Snare

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance

4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Lightning Bolt

Sideboard:
3 Gaddock Teeg
3 Threads of Disloyalty
4 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pyroclasm
3 Krosan Grip
Just a note of my matches

R1: Dragon Stompy 2-0
R2: Ichorid (frown town) 1-2
R3: Survival (He drew amazing but I don't think it's a positive matchup) 0-2
R4: TES 2-1
R5: Goyf Sligh 2-1
R6: Team America 2-0


All I can say is...

1. There was not one situation where I wanted nimble mongoose when I had RWM.
2. Despite my previous hate of the card I really liked spell snare.
3. Lightning bolt I really like but I think 2 and 4 swords might be the right numbers.
4. The mana base is perfect.