Re: [Discussion] Life.deck
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Zappa
It seems like the deck can be tuned to fight against Burn
Yes.
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Originally Posted by
Zappa
Tendrils based combo
No.
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Originally Posted by
Zappa
and as well as put a big giant barricade to mess with aggro deck's plans.
Sometimes.
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Originally Posted by
Zappa
But how come the deck is not seeing much more play? It it's strategy to gain near unlimitted amount of life just not worth it, even though such tactic is what prevents other decks from winning?
You answered your own question. Gaining millions of life doesn't win you the game. In addition to the life combo, you need a way to kill your opponent. This dilutes the deck and takes up valuable slots that could be used for protection. If you can't kill your opponent, you risk getting too many draws from going to time.
Preventing your opponent from winning isn't the same thing as winning.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Zappa
Is it perhaps the lack of card draw as well?
Not really. Most of the good lists I've seen run Dark Confidant, and I'm sure one could build a decent blue list.
I'm a huge fan of Life.dec, and this is the best version I've built in all my years playing it. It has a nice wishboard, and several backup victory plans.
Everything In-between
I'll try to update it with my most current list later.
Re: [Discussion] Life.deck
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kuma
Not really. Most of the good lists I've seen run Dark Confidant, and I'm sure one could build a decent blue list.
I'm a huge fan of Life.dec, and this is the best version I've built in all my years playing it. It has a nice wishboard, and several backup victory plans.
I have not seen any successful list running confidant, unless you have a link that can show its performance. Most list I've seen runs tutors to fetch for the creatures they need.
Re: [Discussion] Life.deck
Isn't Martyr of Sands + Proclamation of Rebirth functionally the same (puts you way beyond their ability to win) except that it's immune to creature removal and doesn't take up more than 8 slots?
Re: [Discussion] Life.deck
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Zappa
I have not seen any successful list running confidant, unless you have a link that can show its performance. Most list I've seen runs tutors to fetch for the creatures they need.
I don't have a link with results for Life.deck, because no one is putting up results with it. The list I linked you to runs both Dark Confidant and tutors. I've done okay with it at local Legacy events. What is your definition of successful list?
In a low casting cost deck that desperately needs card advantage why is Dark Confidant a bad idea? Check out the thread I posted and play a few games with the deck. The combination of Dark Confidant and tutors lets you pursue a variety of gameplans.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Anusien
Isn't Martyr of Sands + Proclamation of Rebirth functionally the same (puts you way beyond their ability to win) except that it's immune to creature removal and doesn't take up more than 8 slots?
If you have seven mana and a hand full of white cards I guess so.
Am I missing something here? That seems slower, weaker, and harder to set up.
Re: [Discussion] Life.deck
Here in France there is a player who regularly top 8 with eternal life. As far as I am concerned, I haven't tested the deck but this player tested it a lot.
If you can read french here is the link with a primer
http://www.legacy-france.com/Legacy-...Life-t750.html
anyway there is the list he is playing.
Re: [Discussion] Life.deck
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Anusien
Isn't Martyr of Sands + Proclamation of Rebirth functionally the same (puts you way beyond their ability to win) except that it's immune to creature removal and doesn't take up more than 8 slots?
I saw only 1 list in deckcheck website that ran proclamation of rebirth. "Mono white Life" Piloted by KeySam on Magic legacy Trial back then at November 2006.
I haven't seen other placements of other list running Proclamation. Though you're right it does set them back, but I guess it can interfere with you getting the near infinite life combo as you are not getting the peices to accomplish that instead.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
adrieng
Here in France there is a player who regularly top 8 with eternal life. As far as I am concerned, I haven't tested the deck but this player tested it a lot. If you can read french here is the link with a primer
http://www.legacy-france.com/Legacy-...Life-t750.html
anyway there is the list
he is playing.
Ha ha, there I was thinking that it was piloted by a female, I just saw the name Jean-Mary and I jumped to comclusion, silly me. That's the same person I was looking at deckcheck and seeing him place in the top 8s in the tournaments. Made 1st place in one of the tourneys in 2008 and 2nd place on a later tourney in 2008, but most entries by that pilot he top 8ed.
Thanks so much for the link... now I just wish I can speak french, and read it. :cry:
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kuma
I don't have a link with results for Life.deck, because no one is putting up results with it. The list I linked you to runs both Dark Confidant and tutors. I've done okay with it at local Legacy events. What is your definition of successful list?.
Results. Once player though named Jean-Mary Accart competes with it, while his meta may be different from yours and mine, it still focuses on preventing decks that require depleting your life to 0. Which alot of decks falls into.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kuma
In a low casting cost deck that desperately needs card advantage why is Dark Confidant a bad idea? Check out the thread I posted and play a few games with the deck. The combination of Dark Confidant and tutors lets you pursue a variety of gameplans.
The more frequent list I tend to see are lists that helps gets the correct peices together. The decks that top 8ed that went for a splash went for green instead. Using cards like Eladamri's Call and some ran some Livish Wish. As those card's gets you your peices that you need.
As for proclamation, when the deck is based around the life combo, I would much rather have combo piece than. stall card.
As for what you said about "Preventing your opponent from winning, isn't the same as winning." I fail to see the correlation bewteen the two. When majority of the decks out there needs to deplete your life to 0, and it is somehting that they're not able to do. The fact that they can't win and you still can makes all the difference.
Even some decks, such as control decks, abides by the same idea. You win when the opponent can no longer win.
The more I look at those lists, the more I understand the importance of green in the deck.
Re: [Discussion] Life.deck
In practical terms, it seems like Ad Nauseam would be a much better enabler for a deck like this than Confidant, especially if the list includes Children of Korlis.
Re: [Discussion] Life.deck
Why run this over Cephalid breakfast? I mean its actually harder to get the life than mill yourself cuz you dont need Worthy cause.
Re: [Discussion] Life.deck
Quote:
Originally Posted by
rufus
In practical terms, it seems like Ad Nauseam would be a much better enabler for a deck like this than Confidant, especially if the list includes Children of Korlis.
There's the issue of five mana for the Ad Nauseum. And the issue of needing even more mana or having to wait a turn with low life to cast the piece(s) you found.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
HdH_Cthulhu
Why run this over Cephalid breakfast? I mean its actually harder to get the life than mill yourself cuz you dont need Worthy cause.
Because the life combo is worlds harder to disrupt, and Life.deck runs a more stable manabase.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
adrieng
Here in France there is a player who regularly top 8 with eternal life. As far as I am concerned, I haven't tested the deck but this player tested it a lot.
If you can read french here is the link with a primer
http://www.legacy-france.com/Legacy-...Life-t750.html
anyway there is the list he is playing.
Here's the list in question:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lejay
[T1.5] Eternal Life - WGu Contrôle-Combo
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Scrubland
1 Snow-Covered Plains
1 Tundra
3 Diamond Valley
4 Flooded Strand
4 Savannah
4 Starlit Sanctum
4 Windswept Heath
4 Æther Vial
1 True Believer
1 Viridian Zealot
1 Warrior en-Kor
2 Mother of Runes
3 Daru Spiritualist
3 Meddling Mage
3 Nomads en-Kor
3 Shaman en-Kor
4 Task Force
1 Sylvan Library
2 Orim's Chant
4 Eladamri's Call
4 Living Wish
SB: 1 Eternal Witness
SB: 1 Crookclaw Transmuter
SB: 1 Harmonic Sliver
SB: 1 Llawan, Cephalid Empress / Meta-slot
SB: 1 Genesis
SB: 1 Cephalid Illusionist
SB: 1 Darksteel Colossus
SB: 1 Glowrider / Meta-slot
SB: 2 Ray of Revelation
SB: 1 Daru Spiritualist
SB: 1 Shaman en-Kor
SB: 1 Nomads en-Kor
SB: 1 Meddling Mage
SB: 1 Diamond Valley
I'm sure the list has been updated and improved, but there are several problems here. First of all, there's no strong backup plan if he can't get the combo off. Second, Living Wish for Darksteel Colossus isn't a good plan for victory. He runs only thirteen lands that can make mana. He will never cast Colossus if the opponent is running Wasteland. There's also StP, Path to Exile, and counterspells to keep him off his Living Wishes. Colossus serves as an anti-decking mechanism, but he won't be able to shuffle it in late if his opponent is playing discard.
Relying on decking your opponent is incredibly slow. You'd better have won the first game if you expect to win that way.
Third, there is no disruption. Not one piece of discard or creature removal. Life.deck isn't fast and powerful enough to ignore most of the decks in Legacy.
The single Warrior en-Kor is also a head scratcher.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Zappa
Results. Once player though named Jean-Mary Accart competes with it, while his meta may be different from yours and mine, it still focuses on preventing decks that require depleting your life to 0. Which alot of decks falls into.
There's a huge difference between top eighting in Europe and top eighting in the U.S.A. The primer is from 2007, but look at the matchups he talks about. Threshold, storm, Goblins, Faerie Stompy, Burn, Loam Confinement, Rifter, Solidarity, Aluren, and Gamekeeper.
No mention of Landstill, Team America, Aggro Loam, Survival, Ichorid, and numerous other decks that are forces in the format. Burn, Loam Confinement, Rifter, Solidarity, Aluren, and Gamekeeper can't carry the above decks' jock.
Your statement is a vast oversimplification.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Zappa
The more frequent list I tend to see are lists that helps gets the correct peices together. The decks that top 8ed that went for a splash went for green instead. Using cards like Eladamri's Call and some ran some Livish Wish. As those card's gets you your peices that you need.
Did you even click the link I posted? I really need to update that, because my current list runs Eladamri's Call, Living Wish, and Dark Confidant. It's not like it's hard to splash black and green. Hell, Lejay splashes green and blue.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Zappa
As for what you said about "Preventing your opponent from winning, isn't the same as winning." I fail to see the correlation bewteen the two. When majority of the decks out there needs to deplete your life to 0, and it is somehting that they're not able to do. The fact that they can't win and you still can makes all the difference.
You do realize there are time limits on rounds in tournaments? That's what I mean by preventing your opponent from winning isn't the same as winning. There's a strong possibility that you'll have less cards in your deck than your opponent, which hurts your inevitability. The creatures Life.deck runs aren't strong enough to go the distance vs. most Legacy decks. You don't suddenly win because your life total becomes huge.
This is why I run Tarmogoyf and Doran, the Seige Tower in my list. Doran turns infinite toughness into infinite damage, and goyf can win games on his own.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Zappa
Even some decks, such as control decks, abides by the same idea. You win when the opponent can no longer win.
Yes, but control decks run a powerful win condition or two. They still have to kill their opponents.
Re: [Discussion] Life.deck
I saw lists thats running doran indead, it's a pretty powerful way of ending the game. I see what you mean by finishing the matches on time, that's why I thought about adding Jitte's on the deck to help muscle our way in. Though Doran can pretty much do that.
Since this section is about format discussion, I'll be posting in the link you sent me instead. To talk more about the deck.
Re: [Discussion] Life.deck
For a win condition, there's always Ajani...
Re: [Discussion] Life.deck
I think my deck (I Will Survive) does a much better job than Life.dec because I don't have to play a bunch of useless-on-their-own cards like en-Kors and Daru Spiritualist.
Re: [Discussion] Life.deck
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kuma
I'm sure the list has been updated and improved
Absolutely. It better be since the list is more than 2-years old (the primer is from march but the very same list (2 meta slots) had been the same for 6 months when I wrote this)
At that time i was winning almost every single tournament i was attending, and i'm talking about 50 players tournaments. So i'm pretty confident about this list.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kuma
, but there are several problems here. First of all, there's no strong backup plan if he can't get the combo off.
The deck had several back up plans. Playing creatures for disruption gives you a stronger aggroish mode. 11 meddling mages + true believer is very good at disrupting combo decks faster than yours. Post sideboard cephalid illusionist gives you a strong late game with genesis advantage or orim's chant lock.
You needed back up plans against rifter (only deck playing humility at that time), aluren (meddling mage, true believer, ray of revelation, llawan), solidarity (meddling mage, orim's chant, glowrider) and gamekeeper (meddling mage, glowrider, orim's lock, but almost unwinnable match-up anyway against a well-tuned list).
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kuma
Second, Living Wish for Darksteel Colossus isn't a good plan for victory. He runs only thirteen lands that can make mana. He will never cast Colossus if the opponent is running Wasteland. There's also StP, Path to Exile, and counterspells to keep him off his Living Wishes. Colossus serves as an anti-decking mechanism, but he won't be able to shuffle it in late if his opponent is playing discard.
Colossus is not considered as a real kill condition, but as an insurance I could afford at that time since I had a sideboard slot opened. It is helpful for match-ups that can lock you completely post-combo and waiting for you being decked. This happens against heavy mana denial strategies, recurring yosei etc...
I only put a colossus on board a few times in several years. Each time it was with aether vial. That's why I would play progenitus now.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kuma
Relying on decking your opponent is incredibly slow. You'd better have won the first game if you expect to win that way.
The kill against control is genesis. You have the late game if you can recurr creatures unkillable in combat. Killing your opponent either with a hord, unblockable creatures (mother of runes) of with sanctum's second ability.
The kill when you need to win quickly is crookclaw transmuter. Again either make a creature unblockable or sacrifice it to sanctum.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kuma
Third, there is no disruption. Not one piece of discard or creature removal. Life.deck isn't fast and powerful enough to ignore most of the decks in Legacy.
No disruption ? I wonder why I run 2/2 bears that cost UW when others cost 1G. True believer is also some kind of selective meddling mage, but much more potent against some decks (aluren, burn, discard etc...). Running creatures as disruption is far more synergic with the skeleton of the deck which evolves around 4 aether vials and 8 creature tutors.
You didn't fear a single creature at that time so creature removal wasn't needed. With futursight came magus of the moon which is the reason I play thornscape battlemage sideboard now. You could count sulfur elemental as a threat, but one is not enough to completely shut you down and i never ever faced one in a tournament.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kuma
The single Warrior en-Kor is also a head scratcher.
Before tarmogoyf most threshold lists were playing 2 pithing needle mainboard. That's why I ran 1 warrior main and 1 shaman en-kor sideboard. Today pithing needle isn't maindeck material anymore so I play the warrior in the sideboard.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kuma
There's a huge difference between top eighting in Europe and top eighting in the U.S.A. The primer is from 2007, but look at the matchups he talks about. Threshold, storm, Goblins, Faerie Stompy, Burn, Loam Confinement, Rifter, Solidarity, Aluren, and Gamekeeper.
No mention of Landstill, Team America, Aggro Loam, Survival, Ichorid, and numerous other decks that are forces in the format. Burn, Loam Confinement, Rifter, Solidarity, Aluren, and Gamekeeper can't carry the above decks' jock.
I'm don't think your memory is quite accurate here. Loam confinement was a great deck before the printing of split second spells, Rifter was still a lot played, solidarity which I never like that much was considered as one of the 3 DTB on The Source, Aluren was by far the best deck in the format, and gamekeeper was mentioned mainly because it was by far the worst match-up of the deck.
Landstill wasn't played a lot in France (probably because goblins was the N°1 DTB), team america didn't exist, aggro-loam was loam confinement, survival is mentioned in a various section at the end because builds aren't homogene at all, and ichorid didn't exist before futursight and bridge from below.
I'm defending a 2006-2007 list, so please don't answer this post with arguments about today's metagame.
For people who wonder, yes eternal life is an incredibly good archetype. Today I still top8 almost every tournament (40-50 players) I attend when I play it. My performances recorded on deckcheck are only the visible part of the iceberg. :cool:
Re: [Discussion] Life.deck
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lejay
-snip-
Nice read :D Mind showing a decklist?
Re: [Discussion] Life.deck
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lejay
The deck had several back up plans. Playing creatures for disruption gives you a stronger aggroish mode. 11 meddling mages + true believer is very good at disrupting combo decks faster than yours. Post sideboard cephalid illusionist gives you a strong late game with genesis advantage or orim's chant lock.
The kill against control is genesis. You have the late game if you can recurr creatures unkillable in combat. Killing your opponent either with a hord, unblockable creatures (mother of runes) of with sanctum's second ability.
The kill when you need to win quickly is crookclaw transmuter. Again either make a creature unblockable or sacrifice it to sanctum.
1/1s for W and 2/2s for UW isn't an aggro plan. It hasn't been since like 1996. That list runs six creatures with two power, and eleven creatures with one power. Meddling Mage and True Believer are among the easiest hate pieces for storm combo to beat. And Doomsday lists can deal you infinite damage with Helm of Awakening, two Sensei's Divining Tops, and Grapeshot.
Cephalid Illusionist? Why would you even run that as a wishboard target when you don't have a combo to kill with it? Do you run it to find creatures to recur and Genesis? That seems very risky.
Your "strong late game" is Genesis, which you need to get in your graveyard, Orim's Chant, Eternal Witness, and Diamond Valley. Two of these cards reside in your wishboard, which means you need two Living Wishes to get them. You also only have two Chants and no way to search for them.
That plan is stopped by graveyard hate, countermagic, CounterTop, Swords to Plowshares, Chalice of the Void, Wasteland, Pithing Needle, and more. You might pull it off against someone who doesn't know what to expect, but nearly every deck in the format has multiple answers. And your only protection is four Meddling Mage.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lejay
Colossus is not considered as a real kill condition, but as an insurance I could afford at that time since I had a sideboard slot opened. It is helpful for match-ups that can lock you completely post-combo and waiting for you being decked. This happens against heavy mana denial strategies, recurring yosei etc...
This is kind of what I was getting at with my post about the decks you mentioned in the primer. If your opponents are trying to recur Yosei, it doesn't sound like they're strong players playing strong decks. It doesn't matter if there's 50 of them or five.
In my experience, I haven't needed a card like Darksteel Colossus/Serra Avatar/etc to avoid decking. Besides, winning through avoiding decking takes too long providing you can even do it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lejay
No disruption ? I wonder why I run 2/2 bears that cost UW when others cost 1G.
Meddling Mage is quasi-disruption at best vs. most decks. Speaking of cards that cost 1G, Tarmogoyf seems like a good backup plan, especially when you can use Shaman en-Kor to win some Tarmogoyf wars.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lejay
Before tarmogoyf most threshold lists were playing 2 pithing needle mainboard. That's why I ran 1 warrior main and 1 shaman en-kor sideboard. Today pithing needle isn't maindeck material anymore so I play the warrior in the sideboard.
Doesn't Harmonic Sliver in the Wishboard serve effectively the same purpose by removing one of the needles in that situation?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lejay
I'm don't think your memory is quite accurate here. Loam confinement was a great deck before the printing of split second spells, Rifter was still a lot played, solidarity which I never like that much was considered as one of the 3 DTB on The Source, Aluren was by far the best deck in the format, and gamekeeper was mentioned mainly because it was by far the worst match-up of the deck.
Landstill wasn't played a lot in France (probably because goblins was the N°1 DTB), team america didn't exist, aggro-loam was loam confinement, survival is mentioned in a various section at the end because builds aren't homogene at all, and ichorid didn't exist before futursight and bridge from below.I'm defending a 2006-2007 list, so please don't answer this post with arguments about today's metagame.
Fair enough. As one Life.deck enthusiast to another, I hope you'll post your current list and metagame, so we can discuss them instead.
Re: [Discussion] Life.deck
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kuma
1/1s for W and 2/2s for UW isn't an aggro plan. It hasn't been since like 1996.
You don't need to run 4/5s and 5/5s to kill the opponent. Especially when it is not your primary goal. If you run the full set of meddling mages the beatdown mode only occurs in two cases: when you are against an opponent who both ignores your combo and has a better lategame than you (stax with academy ruins or more cards in library, salvagers, survival with yosei combo...) and in games of attrition wars where your opponent spends a lot of energy disrupting your combo like black decks with lots of discards and/or mana denial and/or creature removal. So running tarmogoyfs and multiple dorans won't improve a lot of match-ups, but running less lands and no disruption creatures weakens a lot more.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kuma
Meddling Mage and True Believer are among the easiest hate pieces for storm combo to beat.
3x Meddling mage, 1xtrue believer and 1x gaddock teeg is far more versatile than any other storm hate since they are useful in every single match-up, at least by being a 2/2 creature. Meddling mage is often a key card against any single archetype.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kuma
And Doomsday lists can deal you infinite damage with Helm of Awakening, two Sensei's Divining Tops, and Grapeshot.
How is this relevant ? I don't run condemn.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kuma
Cephalid Illusionist? Why would you even run that as a wishboard target when you don't have a combo to kill with it? Do you run it to find creatures to recur and Genesis? That seems very risky.
Your "strong late game" is Genesis, which you need to get in your graveyard, Orim's Chant, Eternal Witness, and Diamond Valley. Two of these cards reside in your wishboard, which means you need two Living Wishes to get them. You also only have two Chants and no way to search for them.
Cephalid illusionist was a sideboard card. It was sided in with other cards when i needed genesis engine / enchantment removals (ray of revelation) / orim's chant lock (survival, salvagers etc...)
Darksteel colossus was also there to prevent suicide issues when milling yourself.
It seems awkward but with only one slot I was improving a lot most baddest match-ups.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kuma
That plan is stopped by graveyard hate, countermagic, CounterTop, Swords to Plowshares, Chalice of the Void, Wasteland, Pithing Needle, and more.
I beg people to bring graveyard hate against me. Swords doesn't stop that plan at all with diamond valley on the board. All other cards quoted weren't played in the match-ups I needed quick genesis recursion or ray of revelation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kuma
You might pull it off against someone who doesn't know what to expect
Lol. I hoped they wouldn't expect this. As far as I remember my opponent always had a strange look on his face when locked down by chants or multiple mages from a fishy genesis.:wink:
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kuma
This is kind of what I was getting at with my post about the decks you mentioned in the primer. If your opponents are trying to recur Yosei, it doesn't sound like they're strong players playing strong decks. It doesn't matter if there's 50 of them or five.
I generally don't despise my opponent's strategies, especially when it destroys
most interest of mine. And the opponents I was facing with survival yosei were very good. Two germans with very well tuned and studied lists, and good players. It was at the 2006 worlds side event in Paris, and I have been able to check that on deckcheck, since I remembered the name of one of my opponents (christian Schaffer) who had great success in german legacy tourneys.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kuma
In my experience, I haven't needed a card like Darksteel Colossus/Serra Avatar/etc to avoid decking. Besides, winning through avoiding decking takes too long providing you can even do it.
It's not necessary at all. But it saved my ass a good number of times. I consider it as the eternal 16th sideboard slot, putting it in only when I have a free slot. I don't run it currently with 4 chalice of the void in the board for ad nauseam.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kuma
Meddling Mage is quasi-disruption at best vs. most decks. Speaking of cards that cost 1G, Tarmogoyf seems like a good backup plan, especially when you can use Shaman en-Kor to win some Tarmogoyf wars.
Tarmogoyf is a very good card. But you have to ask yourself in which situations do you want a back up plan. Your combo is supposedly very hard to disrupt thanks to its redundancy and elements with different names. Cards like cursed totem, suppression field or damping matrix aren't played at all (in addition to the fact that meddling can deal with it). You want a back up plan against two kind of decks :
the ones that ignore your combo (aluren, solidarity, salvagers, painter, eternal garden...)
the ones that can put you 20 damage before you combo (tendrills decks, ichorid)
Meddling mage is ages ahead against tarmogoyf in this competition for the back up plan. No match.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kuma
Doesn't Harmonic Sliver in the Wishboard serve effectively the same purpose by removing one of the needles in that situation?
It removes the needle but doesn't allow you to combo if you don't have an en-kor. Warrior en-kor lets you ignore needle AND combo. It also allows to play 4 shaman en-kor main, since I consider the wishboard has to have both a nomads en-kor and an 2cc en-kor. You will too often find situations in which having only nomads (ie no more mana than the 1G for wish) or only a 2cc en-kor (ie 0 or 1 mana available and no vial at 2) will be game losing.
This is the list I ran in a 50 players tourney in january, didn't play legacy since then :
1 Miren, the Moaning Well
1 Plains
1 Scrubland
1 Snow-Covered Forest
1 Snow-Covered Plains
1 Tropical Island
3 Diamond Valley
4 Flooded Strand
4 Savannah
4 Starlit Sanctum
4 Windswept Heath
1 Doran, the Siege Tower
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Harmonic Sliver
1 Mother of Runes
3 Daru Spiritualist
3 Meddling Mage
3 Nomads en-Kor
4 Shaman en-Kor
4 Task Force
2 Mox Diamond
4 Æther Vial
4 Eladamri's Call
4 Living Wish
SB: 1 Preacher
SB: 1 Thornscape Battlemage
SB: 1 Genesis
SB: 1 Warrior en-Kor
SB: 1 Wispmare
SB: 1 True Believer
SB: 4 Chalice of the Void
SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 Daru Spiritualist
SB: 1 Nomads en-Kor
SB: 1 Meddling Mage
SB: 1 Diamond Valley
In a meta with less storm decks and more ichorids i would have played 1 faerie macabre (ichorid, eternal garden, togless...), 1 samurai of the pale curtain (ichorid, eternal garden, salvagers...), 1 additional gaddock teeg (storm, ichorid landstill, stax...) and 1 colossus (now progenitus) instead of chalices.
You probably want to play knight of the reliquary main deck now. Also with ad nauseam I'd like to be able to run hide/seek sideboard, but I don't like the idea of splashing the fifth color.
EDIT : for the little story I finished 4th (no top8) in the january tournament. However I drawed against survival elves in a match that was already won thanks to meddling mage on mirror entity + infinite life. My opponent didn't know his deck very well and took lots of time for decisions. I could (should) have called a judge but these tournaments are always very friendly and I knew him.
Re: [Discussion] Life.deck
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lejay
You don't need to run 4/5s and 5/5s to kill the opponent.
Of course not. But it really, really helps.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lejay
Especially when it is not your primary goal.
Killing the opponent is every deck's primary goal; they just differ on how to go about it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lejay
If you run the full set of meddling mages the beatdown mode only occurs in two cases: when you are against an opponent who both ignores your combo and has a better lategame than you (stax with academy ruins or more cards in library, salvagers, survival with yosei combo...)
This seems like a very narrow subset of decks. Basically we're talking about decks that can deal infinite damage, run cards like Academy Ruins to avoid being decked, or that can deck you first. ITF, Doomsday, Aggro Loam, Train Wreck, The Rock, etc.
None of the decks you mentioned have any problems dealing with 1/1s and 2/2s. Stax can Armageddon with Magus of the Tabernacle/Ghostly Prison, use Humility + Moat, or just gain more life with Exalted Angel beats. Salvagers (is anyone still playing this?) will kill you before Meddling Mages become relevant, and Survival with Yosei will ensure your Meddling Mages never untap.
Yes, to a degree Meddling Mages can prevent these things from happening by naming the right cards, but these decks also run removal.
I think the better plan is to kill these decks before the lategame.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lejay
and in games of attrition wars where your opponent spends a lot of energy disrupting your combo like black decks with lots of discards and/or mana denial and/or creature removal. So running tarmogoyfs and multiple dorans won't improve a lot of match-ups, but running less lands and no disruption creatures weakens a lot more.
Decks like Eva Green and Team America are not the least bit afraid of Meddling Mage beatdown. They do worry about 4/5s and 5/5s. One of the advantages of running Tarmogoyf and Doran is that they sometimes have to decide whether to attack your combo or your beatdown. Sometimes they'll choose wrong.
Those are two matches improved by running Tarmogoyf and Doran. And they're pretty important ones.
Worst case scenario, Tarmogoyf and Doran act like walls while you assemble the combo. They're also great for protecting your en-Kors from burn.
Meddling Mage and other hate bears improve the combo matchup and that's about it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lejay
3x Meddling mage, 1xtrue believer and 1x gaddock teeg is far more versatile than any other storm hate since they are useful in every single match-up, at least by being a 2/2 creature. Meddling mage is often a key card against any single archetype.
Useful maybe. Excellent no.
Every one of those dies to Grapeshot while comboing. They all die to Pyroclasm. They can all be bounced by Chain of Vapor and Echoing Truth.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lejay
How is this relevant ? I don't run condemn.
I guess you could gain infinite life again in response to Grapeshot. But it's not like the fact that Doomsday can deal you infinite damage is irrelevant. You won't always be able to gain infinite life on demand, especially versus a fast deck like doomsday.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lejay
Cephalid illusionist was a sideboard card. It was sided in with other cards when i needed genesis engine / enchantment removals (ray of revelation) / orim's chant lock (survival, salvagers etc...)
Darksteel colossus was also there to prevent suicide issues when milling yourself.
It seems awkward but with only one slot I was improving a lot most baddest match-ups.
I'll take your word for it even though self milling seems extremely risky.
I won't comment about Extirpate since obviously you were doing this before that card was printed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lejay
I beg people to bring graveyard hate against me.
If my lategame was dependant on the graveyard I wouldn't beg people to bring in graveyard hate. Graveyard hate may not stop the infinite life, but it can make your life hell when you're trying to finish someone off.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lejay
Swords doesn't stop that plan at all with diamond valley on the board. All other cards quoted weren't played in the match-ups I needed quick genesis recursion or ray of revelation.
I think you're oversimplifying. Pretty much every deck in the format that has a lategame runs some of those cards.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lejay
Lol. I hoped they wouldn't expect this. As far as I remember my opponent always had a strange look on his face when locked down by chants or multiple mages from a fishy genesis.:wink:
I know I'd be shocked to be hit by that. :smile:
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lejay
It's not necessary at all. But it saved my ass a good number of times. I consider it as the eternal 16th sideboard slot, putting it in only when I have a free slot. I don't run it currently with 4 chalice of the void in the board for ad nauseam.
One of the things that jumped out at me was the size of your wishboard. Most of the cards in there seem very narrow, and I wonder if you wouldn't be better served by cutting the wishboard to the 6-7 most essential slots and running some stronger sideboard cards.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lejay
Tarmogoyf is a very good card. But you have to ask yourself in which situations do you want a back up plan.
In nearly every situation. Relying on a three card combo is risky.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lejay
Your combo is supposedly very hard to disrupt thanks to its redundancy and elements with different names.
It's hard to disrupt with Meddling Mage and Needle. But countermagic and removal do the job pretty well, especially since the combo falls flat if you take out even one of the three elements.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lejay
It removes the needle but doesn't allow you to combo if you don't have an en-kor. Warrior en-kor lets you ignore needle AND combo. It also allows to play 4 shaman en-kor main, since I consider the wishboard has to have both a nomads en-kor and an 2cc en-kor. You will too often find situations in which having only nomads (ie no more mana than the 1G for wish) or only a 2cc en-kor (ie 0 or 1 mana available and no vial at 2) will be game losing.
I just can't get behind the idea that you need a wishboard slot just for speeding you up when your opponent has two en-Kors Needled.
Here's what I'm running, but I haven't worked on the deck much recently. At a glance, I don't think I'd run four Vexing Shusher anymore.
// Lands
2 [A] Scrubland
3 [A] Savannah
1 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
1 [UNH] Plains
1 [UNH] Forest
3 [ON] Wooded Foothills
3 [A] Bayou
2 [ON] Starlit Sanctum
// Creatures
3 [SC] Daru Spiritualist
3 [SH] Nomads en-Kor
3 [SH] Shaman en-Kor
4 [MM] Task Force
3 [LRW] Doran, the Siege Tower
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
3 [RAV] Dark Confidant
// Spells
2 [PS] Eladamri's Call
4 [JU] Living Wish
4 [DIS] Condemn
3 [LRW] Thoughtseize
4 [DS] AEther Vial
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [SC] Daru Spiritualist
SB: 1 [SH] Nomads en-Kor
SB: 4 [SHM] Vexing Shusher
SB: 1 [SH] Volrath's Stronghold
SB: 1 [TSP] Harmonic Sliver
SB: 1 [AN] Diamond Valley
SB: 4 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 1 [LRW] Shriekmaw
SB: 1 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
Re: [Discussion] Life.deck
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kuma
Killing the opponent is every deck's primary goal; they just differ on how to go about it.
I disagree here. Prison decks have a primary goal of locking the opponent, killing him is secondary since often it occurs quite quickly after the lock and/or is optional because of opponent's concession.
Life is a prison deck.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kuma
This seems like a very narrow subset of decks. Basically we're talking about decks that can deal infinite damage, run cards like Academy Ruins to avoid being decked, or that can deck you first. ITF, Doomsday, Aggro Loam, Train Wreck, The Rock, etc.
None of the decks you mentioned have any problems dealing with 1/1s and 2/2s. Stax can Armageddon with Magus of the Tabernacle/Ghostly Prison, use Humility + Moat, or just gain more life with Exalted Angel beats. Salvagers (is anyone still playing this?) will kill you before Meddling Mages become relevant, and Survival with Yosei will ensure your Meddling Mages never untap.
Yes, to a degree Meddling Mages can prevent these things from happening by naming the right cards, but these decks also run removal.
I think the better plan is to kill these decks before the lategame.
You are absolutely right. And I wasn't saying the contrary. What I was trying to point out is that these categories of archetypes are very limited.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kuma
Decks like Eva Green and Team America are not the least bit afraid of Meddling Mage beatdown. They do worry about 4/5s and 5/5s. One of the advantages of running Tarmogoyf and Doran is that they sometimes have to decide whether to attack your combo or your beatdown. Sometimes they'll choose wrong.
Eva green and team america are much less of a concern in my metagame. Meddling mage on tarmogoyf and/or stalker is a concern for the opponent, but I agree it should be slightly inferior to goyf and doran. However Since I run a lot of lands and 2 mox diamonds these decks strategies aren't fully efficient against me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kuma
Worst case scenario, Tarmogoyf and Doran act like walls while you assemble the combo. They're also great for protecting your en-Kors from burn.
Before tarmogoyf, I decided that the best card to run against most decks was wall of blossoms. Protect the en-kor, blocks, and cantrips. However I didn't want to improve most match-ups. I wanted to improve the worst match-ups. That's why I decided to run meddling mage. Had I chosen the other strategy, I would run tarmogoyfs as you do right now.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kuma
Meddling Mage and other hate bears improve the combo matchup and that's about it.
To me the most fearful match-up is combo wether it is tendrills, ichorid or combos ignoring infinite life.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kuma
Every one of those dies to Grapeshot while comboing. They all die to Pyroclasm. They can all be bounced by Chain of Vapor and Echoing Truth.
I suggest you just try 2 or 3 games against combo. You are not waiting for the opponent to answer them. They give you a clock, every tutor can be the second hate bear, and in most cases they will loose to the life combo. It is a nightmare for the combo deck.
In addition shaman en-kor protects any creature and true believer or glowrider are clerics.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kuma
I guess you could gain infinite life again in response to Grapeshot. But it's not like the fact that Doomsday can deal you infinite damage is irrelevant. You won't always be able to gain infinite life on demand, especially versus a fast deck like doomsday.
I don't consider doomsday fast. It wins generally on turn 3. One hate bear will buy me generally 2 turns.
Also I have no reason to combo before doomsday except if the opponent keeps UU1 open.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kuma
If my lategame was dependant on the graveyard I wouldn't beg people to bring in graveyard hate. Graveyard hate may not stop the infinite life, but it can make your life hell when you're trying to finish someone off.
Lategame is also helped by the fact your opponent can draw a lot of irrelevant spells. Also removing genesis from the game isn't game winning with living wish.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kuma
One of the things that jumped out at me was the size of your wishboard. Most of the cards in there seem very narrow, and I wonder if you wouldn't be better served by cutting the wishboard to the 6-7 most essential slots and running some stronger sideboard cards.
Discussing with other experienced players with the deck taught me that they generally love wishslots even more than me. The smallest wishboard I had was 8 cards. At that time I ran 4 chalices and 3 EE sideboard because thresh was by far the most played deck in the format and belcher + dragon stompy was a concern in the french metagame. I really liked it because EE and chalices are so polyvalent and powerful against those decks. However thresh is less played now and I find that the more diverse is the field the more a wishboard is better than classic sideboard cards.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kuma
It's hard to disrupt with Meddling Mage and Needle. But countermagic and removal do the job pretty well, especially since the combo falls flat if you take out even one of the three elements.
Redundancy, redundancy, redundancy :smile: , and vial.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Kuma
I just can't get behind the idea that you need a wishboard slot just for speeding you up when your opponent has two en-Kors Needled.
Main interest is to not loose a turn because I need the other casting cost for the kor.
Our differences of opinions are both due to different theoretical approaches (you run very good very polyvalent cards that reinforces a majority of match-ups, I run polyvalent good cards that improve significantly the worst match-ups) and metagame issues.
We could discuss this for very long, but I think people reading this board now have enough material to make their own choice.
To finish with defending my case i'll say that i've been working on the life deck continuously for about 6 years and am sure of every choice I made.:smile:
Re: [Discussion] Life.deck
What happened to the old plan that I was running a while back. It's called: consistency kills. I find that this deck, if built right, is incredibly consistent, and can still combo out t3 with a good hand.
My list:
4 Savannah
2 Flagstones of Trokair
4 Starlit Sanctum
4 Windswept Heath
9 Plains
1 Kor Haven
3 Daru Spiritualist
4 Task Force
4 Shaman en-Kor
1 Darksteel Colossus
3 Nomads en-Kor
4 Living Wish
1 Test of Endurance
4 Condemn
4 Worthy Cause
4 Shuko
4 Worldly Tutor
SB: 1 Kor Haven
SB: 1 Daru Spiritualist
SB: 1 Nomads en-Kor
SB: 1 Kataki, War's Wage
SB: 1 True Believer
SB: 1 Preacher
SB: 1 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Glowrider
SB: 1 Soltari Visionary
SB: 1 Jotun Grunt
SB: 1 Maze of Ith
SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 Eternal Dragon
SB: 1 Diamond Valley
SB: 1 Warrior en-Kor
Imho, Aether vial is incredibly overrated and should be cut. Sure, it speeds you up, but if that slot could add more consistency.
