[Deck] NLU_Extended Port GP Chicago Winner

Seeing that no one has started a thread on this yet and the dec seems to be a serious contender as two different versions have made the finals of the largest Legacy event ever:

Gabriel Nassif (built by Luis Scott Vargas)

2 Vedalken Shackles
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Ponder
1 Krosan Grip
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
4 Counterbalance
4 Brainstorm
2 Trygon Predator
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Sower of Temptation
4 Dark Confidant
4 Underground Sea
3 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
4 Polluted Delta
2 Island
4 Flooded Strand

Sideboard
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Engineered Plague
1 Energy Flux
1 Darkblast
1 Burrenton Forge-Tender
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Hydroblast
1 Kataki, War's Wage
1 Krosan Grip
1 Perish
1 Planar Void
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Threads of Disloyalty


Andy Probasco

2 Vedalken Shackles
3 Spell Snare
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Ponder
1 Pithing Needle
2 Krosan Grip
4 Force of Will
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Counterbalance
4 Brainstorm
3 Trinket Mage
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Sower of Temptation
2 Volcanic Island
1 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
4 Polluted Delta
6 Island
4 Flooded Strand
2 Academy Ruins

Sideboard:
2 Ancient Grudge
3 Duress
3 Firespout
2 Hydroblast
1 Krosan Grip
1 Pithing Needle
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Tormod's Crypt

I've been working on similar decs myself for the last few years and the elegance in design of both of these lists awes me. I think that these decs have enough in common that they can be grouped together for a first analysis. Some casual observations:

- Probasco's deck sacrifices power for manabase consistencey a tradeof Legacy players have been making for years now but beeing greedy has seemed to paid of for Nassif
- I'm really no fan of Trinket Mage but it seems that Probasco's list is centered around him providing a high degree of flexibility
- While you can laugh as much about Nassif's sideboard as you like it does provide a high degree of flexibility, while I'd prolly make some major changes I'd definetly stick to the Enlighted Tutor package

Let's keeep the discusion to the decs and not the randomness of Pro's playing Legacy please.

Nassif's list looks a lot like what the 'Threshold' lists have been moving to, in the sense that some players are starting to cut Mongoose. For example, I've been running Nassif's list with the following changes as NQT (Not Quite Thresh) prior to having ever seen any of these NLU ports (and not having any familiarity with Extended):

-1 Island
-1 Underground Sea
-2 Shackles
-2 Sower
-1 Krosan Grip
-1 Top
+2 Ponder
+2 Rhox War Monk
+3 Thoughtseize
+1 Mystic Enforcer/RWM/Trygon Predator

I also run 2 Sowers out of the side. The largest difference is obviously the maindeck creature-control element and extra land to support a slightly higher curve and Shackles. I suppose Shackles fills mostly the same roll as RWM does in my deck as an aggro-stopper, and while RWM is probably better at slowing aggro Shackles is much more versatile. I've found Thoughtseize to be very powerful and sometimes game-winning but it's weak late game.

Anyway, my overall observation is that these NLU decks look a lot like what I've seen Thresh moving towards here on The Source.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Misplayer

Anyway, my overall observation is that these NLU decks look a lot like what I've seen Thresh moving towards here on The Source.

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QFT.

I dunno what Extended NLU looks like, but 4c 'Threshold' and Nassif's build have a lot in common. Like the last being a natural and metagamed evolution of the former.

Some 4c lists (including mine) run Grunt//RWM + Predator over the mongeese as they're least and least loved in controllish builds. Making the deck closer to some Baseruption deck.

Still, although MD Sower and Shackles make the deck way more controllish, I don't know if Nassif's list deserve a brand new thread.

I'm not fond with Shackles btw. But with the result proves otherwise.

The skill of Gabriel is also to take into account...

What means the name of this deck?

Isn't it a baseruption?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Charlatan

What means the name of this deck?

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Next Level blUe

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Charlatan

Isn't it a baseruption?

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It is referenced as it on deckcheck. Still, it's a 4c Threshold//Baseruption variant IMHO.

And which list do you guys from the source prefer?

I like much more probasco lists.
Nassif have topdecked a lot...

trinket mage is a great tutor in legacy!
One more thing, Executioner's Capsule couldn't fit well in this list?

ty

It is baseruption. Or at least close enough. Using the wizards/extended name for it is... interesting. I mean we've all seen innovations before right? We still keep at least part of the name of what we've innovated off of.

Example:
Extended NLU ran loxodon hierarch sometimes. It's draw spell was TfK. It ran threads of disloyalty instead of Sower. Just about 6-8 creatures in every build.

My only real issue with Nassif's version is that with that manabase, if an early Moon hits the table, you're in huge trouble since you only have 2 basic islands.

Wastelands really hurt as well...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Esper3k

My only real issue with Nassif's version is that with that manabase, if an early Moon hits the table, you're in huge trouble since you only have 2 basic islands.

Wastelands really hurt as well...

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Still, his Top8 pairing were vs CanadianThresh and DragonStompy and Nassif still makes it through and win the 'mirror' in final.

So, congratz to the pilot, his luck, his skills and/or his deck ?!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Esper3k

My only real issue with Nassif's version is that with that manabase, if an early Moon hits the table, you're in huge trouble since you only have 2 basic islands.

Wastelands really hurt as well...

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That holds true for 70% of the decks in the format. As lolosoon said, a vulnerable manabase is not a detriment to a skilled player with a powerful deck.

I love this deck, as I had been working on it in secret for a while now...

My list is actually much different (I run all 5 colors for REBs and clasms in the board, and do not run sower, nor daze)... but the concepts are actually quite the same.


Some notes about the deck itself:

Shackles is a bomb!
It wins against most agro control (taking their threats to chump eachother/kill thm with)...

It is a nuisance for anything w/ creatures as well as a wincon on its' own...


I prefer running at least 2 spell snares, as they help the counter suite a lot against combo, as we are a little bit slower than threshold...


The addition of grip in the MD is a good call, as the only decks that we should fear run cards that are enchantments/artifacts anyways (survival, counterbalance, and other things).

It's been great watching Probasco's build evolve from a Painter/Grind shell. He usually does own the Counterbalance mirror, but Nassif blind flipped 'like a pro.'

The only game where I beat Andy (I played Dreadstill) was when he was land screwed. I stifled fetches and he drew his 2 Academy Ruins, both games. Normally, he eats Dreadnoughts for a light snack.

The only matches where his build has a slight weakness is random aggro, which makes this a perfect GP meta deck.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by whienot

He usually does own the Counterbalance mirror, but Nassif blind flipped 'like a pro.'

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I'm also pretty sure that Probasco misplayed badly somewhere along the way when he had his Krosan Grip Countered during his mainphase by Nassif's CB, that shouldn't really ever happen, but I wasn't there so maybe the coverage missed something.

On issues of naming and this dec not deserving it's own thread well here's my two cents: This dec is clearly not Threshhold but one natural evolution of the archetype. Since the creator (a certain mister Vargas) is also larly responsible for creating/popularising NLU in extended and from it's funtionality this dec is much more a pure control dec I choose to stick with that name.
Also while there are quite a few similarities between this dec and baseeruption a) I think the name is retarded b) baseeruption is by definition an aggrocontrol dec and this dec is much more clearly tuned towards being a true control deck.

Also I've been thinking about replacing the Dazes in LSVs list with Spell Snares which seem to fit better but I'm not sure if they fit...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Misplayer

That holds true for 70% of the decks in the format. As lolosoon said, a vulnerable manabase is not a detriment to a skilled player with a powerful deck.

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Yes, but that manabase was even more vulnerable to Moon effects than most decks in Legacy.

Most Threshold builds run at least 1 basic Forest and 1 basic Plains (if white).

I'm not knocking the guy's ability to play, it's just my opinion that the manabase he was playing was more succeptible to non-basic land hate than most decks.

What matchups besides Rock-like matchups that have Spiritmonger and Gensis do you actually want Swords to Plowshares against?

Also, apparently Probasco's punt was that he knew exactly where the Krosan Grip was, but didn't set it up properly to interrupt Nassif before his draw and didn't call a judge to try and back up to the proper point to intervene. He intended to Grip post-Confidant pre-draw.

A question: All of you guys agree with the Ponders in this lists? I mean, they're strictly necessary? There's no better other thing to put it on?

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Originally Posted by Anusien

What matchups besides Rock-like matchups that have Spiritmonger and Gensis do you actually want Swords to Plowshares against

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- Turn 1 Lackey, Hippie, Putrid Imp.
- Ichorid, Dreadnought, Countryside Crusher, Terravore

and tons of other creatures that can come down too quick and will sway the game before shackles or sower can nab them.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Esper3k

Yes, but that manabase was even more vulnerable to Moon effects than most decks in Legacy.

Most Threshold builds run at least 1 basic Forest and 1 basic Plains (if white).

I'm not knocking the guy's ability to play, it's just my opinion that the manabase he was playing was more succeptible to non-basic land hate than most decks.

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3c Thresh lists can run basics, but usually very few (see goobafish's list). 4c lists usually run 1-2 basics. Moon effects can also be very tough for decks like Landstill. Saying that Nassif's deck's manabase is vulnerable to Moon effects is not a legitimate point because the power he gains by running those 4 colors and being able to hit what he needs consistently to cast spells outweighs the chance he could scoop it up to Blood Moon. Again, the same principle applies to many decks in the format.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Misplayer

3c Thresh lists can run basics, but usually very few (see goobafish's list). 4c lists usually run 1-2 basics. Moon effects can also be very tough for decks like Landstill. Saying that Nassif's deck's manabase is vulnerable to Moon effects is not a legitimate point because the power he gains by running those 4 colors and being able to hit what he needs consistently to cast spells outweighs the chance he could scoop it up to Blood Moon. Again, the same principle applies to many decks in the format.

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See, I think pretty much losing to a Moon effect is a legitimate point to consider.

It's not like Moons are a rare card to run across in the format, so it should be something you want to have a plan for. Scooping is not what I'd call a good plan for it.

I'm not saying that you should run a lot of basics in a deck. Threshold decks usually at least run the minimum amount to be able to access your non-blue colors (usually 1 of each land).

Yes, many decks are in trouble if they get hit by an early Moon. What I'm saying is that Nassif's manabase seems that it would be in trouble if it gets hit by a Moon at any time.

A Moon will cut that deck's ability to play 15 cards (4 Swords, 1 Krosan Grip, 2 Trygon Predator, 4 Tarmogoyf, 4 Dark Confidant). On top of that, you're going to have a really tough time casting Counterbalance or Sower as well as have a really rough time using the Shackles, so that's another 8 cards you've effectively lost unless you happen to have both your basic Islands out.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fuzzy

A question: All of you guys agree with the Ponders in this lists? I mean, they're strictly necessary? There's no better other thing to put it on?

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Andy caved to peer pressure right before his GPT. For months before that we had 4 Ponder 3 Brainstorm. Ponder is sick, and running three cmc draw spells sucks. Just always have Top.