[Archetype] CounterTop

[Deck] CounterTop
by Bardo


I. Purpose. This is a discussion and development thread for aggro-control decks built around efficient creatures (e.g. Tarmogoyf) and Counterbalance / Sensei’s Divining Top (“CounterTop” or “CT”) that can claim Gro and Threshold among its ancestors. Well-established decks that incorporate CT, such as DreadStill or It’s the Fear, or decks that have another central focus (like a CT deck that runs 4 Survival of the Fittest) should be discussed in the appropriate thread, not here.

II. History. Legacy deck designers were slow to accept what professional Extended players had long-known: Counterbalance with Sensei’s Divining Top is busted freaking good. I don’t know who knew what when, but running Counter-Top in the maindeck became slowly adopted only after Grand Prix: Columbus (2007), where the only deck running maindeck Counter-Top in the Top 8, funny enough, was the first place Flash deck, built by Billy Moreno and played by Steve Sadin; neither of which are known for their Legacy credentials. (To give credit where it is due, combing through events leading up to GP: Columbus in the Historic Top 8 thread, the Hatfield brothers can be found running 3 Counterbalance in the sideboards of their Threshold decks pre-GP Columbus, presumably for the mirror match.)

After GP: Columbus, it would be another three months before we saw maindeck Counter-Top again, this time in Fish played by Jason Jaco in the Top 8 of the Legacy World Championship at GenCon (2007). After GenCon, people finally bought the ticket and took the ride with Counterbalance.

In 2008-09, we see the now-familiar Counter-Top soft lock with strange bedfellows. As in:

* Dreadstill: Counter Top + Dreadnought/Stifle + Standstill-man lands + mana disruption
* It’s the Fear: Counter Top + Intuition/Life from the Loam + recursion
* Painter: Counter Top + flashy finish (Grindstone / Painter’s Servant)

What we’re seeing here, and this is still a hallmark of modern Counter-Top decks as well: flexible design and intense hybridization. These decks are not executing their strategy along a single line of play (e.g. play some guys, burn your face). They're like several decks mashed into one 60 card deck-list.

By 2009, widespread acceptance was complete; forms continued to diversify, yielding the next evolutionary step in the Gro lineage: the Brassman and Nassif versions of Counter-Top from the finals of Grand Prix: Chicago (March 2009). The creature-base has all been replaced from the Gro decks of yore, but the Gro skeleton is still showing under the skin: the cantrips; free counters, efficient, double-duty beaters; anemic land count, etc.

Going forward, Counter-Top will evolve as its ancestors have always evolved: incorporating new cards and technologies; adapting to the metagame; and exploiting its nearly-perfect, flexible, blue-based core to make it to the top tables. These decks reward tight technical play, with mistakes being rather unforgiving. As such, good players will be drawn to Counter-Top and will do well with some practice.

III. Why These Decks are Good. Counterbalance is good because Legacy is fast. Since nothing rotates, all of the best cards float to the top of the Legacy card pool. Why spend three mana on Unmake when you play Swords to Plowshares for one mana? In a vacuum, there’s no good reason.

Powerful cards in Legacy are cards that create the most value for the least cost. So when we look at the typical mana curve of a competitive Legacy deck, the curve is clustered around converted mana costs of 1-3, which is why Counterbalance is more than a niche card in the Threshold mirror.

Another key to their success: a flexible, multi-purpose form that exploits powerful synergies between good cards. As I wrote about Gro in December 2004: “One of the most powerful aspects of Super Gro is the interlocking synergies that the cards have with one another. Cantrips [Brainstorm, Serum Visions] fill your graveyard while drawing cards and setting up your turns; fetchlands also fill the graveyard [for threshold] while developing your manabase and turning Brainstorm into a combination play; Daze, Misdirection, and Force of Will offer protection while you tap out to play your threats.” [Source]

The names of the cards these days are different, but the fact that each key design piece becomes more powerful with everything around it remains the same. For instance:

* Sensei’s Divining Top: Combos with Counterbalance, fetchlands, Dark Confidant
* Brainstorm: Combos with Counterbalance, fetchlands
* Counterbalance: Combos with Top, Brainstorm, Ponder
* Tarmogoyf: Combos with the format

IV. Card Choices. When you open up the hood of any Counter-Top deck, here’s what you’ll find.

Counter Top Skeleton

Draw / Card Selection
4 Brainstorm
3-4 Sensei’s Divining Top
2-4 Ponder

Counters
4 Force of Will
4 Counterbalance
2-4 Daze and/or Spell Snare

4-8 Removal

4 Tarmogoyf
4-8 Other Duders

18-22 Land
(usually 8 Onslaught fetchlands; 6-10 A/B/U/R duals; 0-6 basic lands; 0-3 utility lands)

Building Out The Shell

I’m not going into detail here, just listing some of the commonly-played cards to flesh out the skeleton and adjust to your metagame.

Counters
Spell Snare
Daze

Removal
Swords to Plowshares
Engineered Explosives
Vedalken Shackles
Krosan Grip
Umezawa’s Jitte

Creatures
Dark Confidant
Trygon Predator
Trinket Mage
Sower of Temptation
Knight of the Reliquary
Qasali Pridemage
Lorescale Coatl

Utility
Enlightened Tutor
Academy Ruins

APPENDIX. Enough chit-chat, here are some proven lists:

Counter Top, Gabriel Nassif
Winner, Grand Prix Chicago (2009)

4 Sensei’s Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder

4 Counterbalance
4 Force of Will
3 Daze

4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Vedalken Shackles
1 Krosan Grip

4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Sower of Temptation
2 Trygon Predator

4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
2 Island

Sideboard:
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tormod’s Crypt
1 Planar Void
1 Burrenton Forge-tender
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Hydroblast
1 Engineered Plague
1 Perish
1 Darkblast
1 Threads of Disloyalty
1 Umezawa’s Jitte
1 Energy Flux
1 Kataki, War’s Wage
1 Krosan Grip
1 Enlightened Tutor

(This sideboard looks pretty random, but if you organize it by function: 3 anti-graveyard cards; 8 anti-creature cards; 3 anti-artifact cards; plus 1 Enlightened Tutor)

Converted Mana Cost Distribution, Nassif List

0: 20
1: 14
2: 15
3: 5
4: 2
5: 4

Counter Top, Andy Probasco
Finalist, Grand Prix Chicago (2009)

4 Sensei’s Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder

4 Counterbalance
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare

2 Vedalken Shackles
2 Krosan Grip
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Pithing Needle

4 Tarmogoyf
3 Trinket Mage
3 Sower of Temptation

4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
1 Underground Sea
6 Island
2 Academy Ruins

Sideboard:
3 Firespout
3 Duress
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Hydroblast
2 Tormod’s Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Krosan Grip
1 Pithing Needle

Converted Mana Cost Distribution, Brassman List

0: 23
1: 15
2: 8
3: 7
4: 3
5: 4

Counter Top Threshold w/ Natural Order/Progenitus, Jesse Hatfield
Grand Prix Trial: Chicago (Feb. 28, 2009)

4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

4 Counterbalance
4 Force of Will
4 Daze

4 Tarmogoyf
3 Nimble Mongoose
3 Werebear
1 Progenitus

4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Natural Order

1 Dryad Arbor
4 Flooded Strand
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
2 Tundra
1 Savannah
2 City of Brass

Sideboard:
4 Krosan Grip
4 Pyroblast
4 Pyroclasm
3 Submerge

Converted Mana Cost Distribution, Hatfield List

0: 18
1: 19
2: 15
3: 0
4: 3
5: 4
10: 1

I'm glad to see the new categories which distinguish CounterTop and Tempo thresh. It makes sense to divide it in this way because it highlights the diverging primary roles.

I think this thread's primer could be difficult to write. The shell shouldn't be too hard, but comparing the splashes should be a sizable task. Perhaps the primer could show stats on card usage, something like a composite list for the shell and likewise for each of the splashes.





peace,
4eak

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 4eak

I think this thread's primer could be difficult to write.

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Especially since there are really 4 version floating around these days.

- Probasco NLU
- Progenitus' Threshold
- NQGw
- 4C Baseruption

Its not like the days of old where every version (White Threshold) pretty much played 35+ same cards.

Cards the same in all the top 4 mentioned lists

Tarmogoyf (4)
Force of Will (4)
Counterbalance (4)
Brainstorm (4)
Ponder (2 - 4)
Sensei's Divining Top (3 - 4)

Like I said in UGW Thresh thread that had been closed, I'm optimizing my build. The list is as follows, with some changes from my original list:

UGW CounterTop
1 Plains
3 Island
2 Forest
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
2 Windswepth Heath
2 Polluted Delta

4 Tarmogoyf
3 Lorescare Coatl
3 Qasali Pridemage

4 Counterbalance
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
4 Daze
1 Krosan Grip
4 Force of Will
4 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Vedalken Shackles

I can also add black, making it 4color CTop, because Dark Confidant is too good in this deck to ignore:

4C Baseruption
3 Island
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
3 Underground Sea
3 Tundra
3 Tropical Island

4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Qasali Pridemage
2 Sower of Temptation

3 Counterbalance
4 Sword to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
3 Daze
1 Krosan Grip
4 Force of Will
4 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Vedalken Shackles

I'm trying to put 2 to 3 Spell Snare because it counters almost everything in my metagame. It's also a strong choice against mirror. But I'm optimizing the deck. And about adding some cards to SB, I can say that Stifle is strong in my meta. Very strong.

Its true the threshold aspect of thresh is becoming almost a thing of the past. Mongoose is still used but much less now days. The bear is rarely used and now with Lorescare Coatl we aren't gonna be seeing much of either of those probably. But maybe we can come up with a cooler name too.

I think Baseruption is good enough for a name, lol. :smile:

Baseruption was the kind of deck of Nassif Baseruption without counter-top engine while most ran Vial. Now it's more logical to name it counter-top.

That list runs only 18 blue cards, I'm sure Trygon Perdator was in there for more than its ability to answer CB.

If any lists are posted in this list, them should be those that have made T8s and not personal lists with unproven card choices.

Lets worry about adjustments once we establish the core lists.

So is this thread going to split into different color combos? I can see a need for swan combo having its own thread. But then the problem is call it Ugr countertop? Some people might run white too. Seems hard to organize all the thresh madness. As you said we got natural order which you need lots of green creatures. So different needs. And then swan combo which runs burn you wouldn't normally run.

I think the thread is geared toward discussing a archetype rather than a variety of decklists. I can only see it being useful to us as a way of condensing the discussions on how to combat this strategy, rather than focus on lists which the community do not agree on.

I can't see this thread going anywhere good. Its bound to end up unfocused. If the goal is to simply make a thread to discuss all the CB/Top centric decks we might as well delete a large portion of DTB, and extablished forums.

You can't discuss more than one deck in a single thread, its doesn't work. Just look at how unfocused the ATW threads are.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Happy Gilmore

You can't discuss more than one deck in a single thread, its doesn't work.

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Then instead of having on generic CB/Top thread, we will need separate ones for each of the following decks:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kabal

- Probasco NLU
- Progenitus' Threshold
- NQGw
- 4C Baseruption

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Agree?

NQGw and 4C Baseruption seem similar to NLU. If I'm not mistaken the Original one in extended used many colors with dark confident. Doesn't swan combo deserve its own slot too? it usually uses UGr right?

I have PMed Nihil Credo, and I voiced the same concern on how many of the decks share some(alot) cards but play very different. But it looks like we are stuck with this format until it is deemed we need to basically go back to the other way. I did suggest having sub-threads but that didn't fly over well either.

@Kabal: Not sure what you mean on the NQGw. Really there is "Bant"/Exalted and UGw NQG/Thresh (more traditional). The second is not seeing as much play but there are still some of us out there that play it.

If we could somehow get sub forums I think that would be great.
Then we could go

Countertop combo:
swan
Progenitus
dreadnought
painter?

countertop aggro/control:
Ugw
Ugr
Ugb
Ugwb

Or maybe wizards will see this and then ban counterbalance from the format making it all irrelevant. lol

The only relevant information in the DTB Forum was the T8 thread, which had all the lists and gave people the ability to see the evolution of the format along with good statistical information.

That thread has not been updated in months, and for those who do not play regularly it is unlikely that the source can provide the information someone would need to prepare for an event without doing extensive research into the Tournament results forum.

The only way these thread will be worth a damn is if that thread is revitalized and we can see the lists for the past year. Without it these thread will have no focus and no direction.

I dont think there is really a way to go back to the single thread discussions, nor do I feel it was working anyway. However, without a major update to the results thread the DTB will become almost useless, a discussion of unproven lists and a source of complete confusion.

Right but the organization of the threads should still be generalized though by definition. You want to be able to have those lists grow into something new and not have to make a new thread for it. That's why the colors work for the landstill threads. If one of the threads doesn't do well in the formats it can be moved to established decks. But most decks running counterbalance paired with fow/daze/spell snare will have a good chance against a variety of decks.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by memnarch

Right but the organization of the threads should still be generalized though by definition. You want to be able to have those lists grow into something new and not have to make a new thread for it. That's why the colors work for the landstill threads. If one of the threads doesn't do well in the formats it can be moved to established decks. But most decks running counterbalance paired with fow/daze/spell snare will have a good chance against a variety of decks.

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What we had before wasn't working, I am happy to see that something is being done. But I hope the changes are not over, and updates to the T8 thread are coming. Otherwise I doubt things are going to get any better.

I've been playing with probasco's list for a couple of weeks since the GP and felt in love with this more controlish aspect of aggro-control. With Merfolk as a regular DTB, I felt I was needing something else to fight them. I found a list on deckcheck and made 1 or 2 changes, here is the new thing:

// Lands
6 Island
3 Tropical Island
4 Flooded Strand
3 Volcanic Island
4 Polluted Delta
1 Academy Ruins

// Creatures
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Sower of Temptation
3 Lorescale Coatl
2 Trinket Mage

// Spells
4 Brainstorm
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Force of Will
3 Ponder
4 Counterbalance
2 Vedalken Shackles
3 Spell Snare
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Fire/Ice

// Sideboard
SB: 1 Engineered Explosives
SB: 2 Jace Beleren
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 2 Ancient Grudge
SB: 2 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 3 Firespout
SB: 1 Pyroclasm

Fire/Ice is a good spot removal, a nice tempo card and somehow synergic with Coatl. The snake is a fast finisher and he's good at blocking non-islandwalk creatures because of brainstorm's effect. Basicly, if you have an Island open, the opponent is affraid of losing his creature to a bs' boosted snake. Against Control, Jace comes in handy, and has a double effect of making coatl the real big threat that need to be answered.

P-M

I think counterbalance decks is pretty vague. I'm currently playing a "threshold" deck that almost walks the line between CBT and Tempo. I guess I'll put it here as per decks main-decking counterbalance go here. I'll explain some of the more unusual choices after the list.

//Land - 17
3 Flooded Strand
4 Windswept Heath
2 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
3 Island
2 Forest
1 Plains

//Creatures - 15
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Sea Drake
3 Trygon Predator

//Artifacts - 5
3 Sensei's Divining Top

//Instants - 18
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Daze
3 Spell Snare
3 Orim's Chant

//Enchantments - 2
2 Counterbalance

//Sideboard - 15
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Counterbalance
3 Pithing Needle
3 Krosan Grip
3 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Engineered Explosives

Edit:

Main Deck

Out - 3 Ponder
In - 3 Orim's Chant

Sideboard:
Out - 3 Qasali Pridemage (Sorry, but I think predator is enough.)
In - 2 Umezawa's Jitte, 1 Counterbalance

Creature Choice:
I chose the creatures to give me a fairly optimal curve. However, I could easily see mongoose being cut if A) Goblins start to become less common again, or B) I find that a utility creature fits here better. For now though, the goose is golden.

Sea Drake: Okay, I'll probably get flamed for this guy, but bring it on. He fills out more of the 3 mana spot for CBT. He has evasion. He only takes one color of mana to cast (and the base color for the deck at that); sorry Rhox War Monk. He hits about as hard as Goyf would if played early. He isn't graveyard dependent. Losing 2 land in a deck that thrives on 1cc cards isn't much of a draw back either.

Trygon Predator: With all the stupid chalices, EE, Dreadnoughts, and vials going around, main deck artifact hate is a must. Also helps in mirror matches.

Why no Lorescale Coatl? This creature is unproven. It is not an immediate threat when on the board, and without a good hand grows slowly. It also forces you to change the way you play your cantrips. Until I see this thing really rip through some tournaments, I'll pass.

Everything else is pretty much essential CBT, except Orim's Chant.

Orim's Chant is an undeniably good card. Since my Deck is half "tempo" threshold, I think chant serves well in delaying your opponent (you can't get much more tempo disruption than "target player cannot cast spells this turn").

Please feel free to comment and or criticize; however, please don't criticize based on your local metagame.

see Waya your list would just go Ugw countertop aggro/control or bant control.

and Enigma would go to Ugr countertop aggro/control

They both look like viable lists. And both use different cards.