TopControl

Landx19
4 * Flooded Strand
4 * Plains
7 * Island
2 * Tundra
1 * Polluted Delta
1 * Windswept Heath

Spellsx41
1 * Back to Basics
4 * Brainstorm
4 * Counterbalance
4 * Force of Will
2 * Propaganda
4 * Standstill
3 * Stifle
3 * Words of Wind
4 * Enlightened Tutor
1 * Idyllic Tutor
1 * Oblivion Ring
2 * Porphyry Nodes
4 * Chrome Mox
4 * Sensei's Divining Top
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Sideboard
2 * Back to Basics
4 * Chill
1 * Daze
2 * Propaganda
1 * Stifle
1 * Words of Wind
4 * Tormod's Crypt


Basically, Top = Game. It's obviously part of the CounterTop, but it's also the other half of the win con. You can use Words of Wind's and SDT's abilities to continuously bounce Top back to your hand while bouncing their entire field. This also means that you can choose to never draw again.

Enlightened Tutor is without a doubt the all star of the deck. I've used it plenty of times in tandem with Counterbalance. And in addition to the wincons, it has a small tutor box. Propaganda is an obvious one.

This deck has performed admirably in testing, and would shell out every penny I have for it if I had even one penny. (money is really tight.) Though that doesn't mean that this is budget. I simply love designing decks.

There are only a few things I'm not sure on.

Stifle mainboard is ok, but that one copy in the board is kinda useless. I put both in as filler. Spell Snare instead?

That 1xDaze in the sideboard is just filler, though it has come in handy quite a few times. This doesn't mean I want it mainboard. This deck enjoys consistent land drops.

p.s. Here's how the combo works for those of you that do not know.

I activate Words of Wind, then Top's second ability. As a replacement effect, I can return Top to my hand before it would be put on top of my library.

Run culling scales if you want this deck to stay casual.

But if you want the deck to be an actual contender in an average metagame, please elaborate upon why your deck is superior to landstill, and why it has no win conditions in it. (I understand you believe decking is a win condition. How do you intend on finishing that quickly?)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by pi4meterftw

Run culling scales if you want this deck to stay casual.

But if you want the deck to be an actual contender in an average metagame, please elaborate upon why your deck is superior to landstill, and why it has no win conditions in it. (I understand you believe decking is a win condition. How do you intend on finishing that quickly?)

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This deck is not casual.

Landstill relies heavily on non-basics. Back to Basics absolutely annihilates Landstill variants. This deck has only two sticky non-basics in it, both of which are non-essential for the most part, meaning that any Wasteland/Crucible shenanigans are useless. I have pretty much the same amount of draw as them, plus a tutor box. Letting me find my lock and any answers arguably faster.

The deck beats Landstill on a regular basis.

p.s. That is a viable win condition. Early game, (sometimes as early as turn3) having no permanents is extremely hindering. In the late game, not having permanents, facing CounterTop, and staring down an opposing hand of Force of Will is just a brick wall. Conceding is a very quick win.

How do Top and Words of Wind interact in much of a profitable manner? It looks like at the cost of :2: a turn, you can bounce a single permanent, but that's not that exciting.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Carabas

How do Top and Words of Wind interact in much of a profitable manner? It looks like at the cost of :2: a turn, you can bounce a single permanent, but that's not that exciting.

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At the first draw, I can tap an Island for the effect, bouncing then playing the Island. After that, I can bounce one permanent for every two mana I have. And while that wouldn't exactly do much with just a blank board on my part, I have CounterTop to slow the rate of return, Porphyry Nodes to kill any creatures that come back, Propaganda to prevent any damage that would've been taken, Back to Basics for a little support, etc.

X/2+1

p.s. As I expect some of you must have MWS, test it out yourself. :D

With such a slow ass win condition, you better hope that you never lose a game. In a tournament, this just isn't viable. if your opponent is ahead 1-0 for game 2, they will not concede. A good player will wait until you show a win condition, and, upon seeing it's some janky Words of War + SDT 'combo', they'll just sit it out. Besides, if you opt to not draw cards anymore, you're losing.

P.S. http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...ad.php?t=13716

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Guevera59

With such a slow ass win condition, you better hope that you never lose a game. In a tournament, this just isn't viable. if your opponent is ahead 1-0 for game 2, they will not concede. A good player will wait until you show a win condition, and, upon seeing it's some janky Words of War + SDT 'combo', they'll just sit it out. Besides, if you opt to not draw cards anymore, you're losing.

P.S. http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...ad.php?t=13716

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That is a valid point, but it doesn't stop this from being a good deck.

I feel like you might as well play Painter-Stone in this shell, because you've already got the support for it. That solves your win-condition problem.

At the very least, play Hoofprints of the Stag or Jace. You definitely need a way to win early.

EDIT: Or, y'know, Tarmogoyf.

EDIT2: Swords to Plowshares needs to be in here. At least one Engineered Explosives too. Stifle seems pretty bad in a deck that wants to go into the late game. And Standstill is awful when you have no way to apply pressure to an opponent. Trinket Mage could see play too if you switch up the toolbox a little bit.

I like the win condition. I can't think of anyway to make it good but I really do like the innovation to come up with a "new" win condition in this format.

How do you deal with a resolved pithing needle, one O-ring does not seem reliable. I would suggest engineered expolsives but that would further my theory that null rod will be main deck material (go go fish!) very soon in legacy.

This reminds me of the sensei sensei deck that was moderatly popular a couple of years ago but it only takes one top to "win". could you add a helm to make the bouncing cost less for you? I mean 1 to bounce a permanate seems better that 2 by a solid amount.

First off, interesting deck.
Few points of critique:
Chrome Moxes seem bad here. It's not all that useful with your curve, and once you hit Words, it becomes horrible.
Standstill has no place here, you don't have manlands/vial and it'll end up being in the other guys favor.
Stifle doesn't fit in here either.
How about:
-4 CMox
-4 Standstill
-3 Stifle

+4 StP
+2 Daze
+2 Jace Beleren
+2 Repeal (not sure about this spot, preferably something blue that can deal with troublesome artifacts/enchantments, as CotV and CBalance are a beating at the moment)
+1 Relic of Progenitus

The win con could simply be trinket mage*3/4. Or a tutorable artifact but I can't think of any that is good enough as a finisher and as a control element, or maybe dreadnought*1, since you already play stifle. I think also that STP would be valuable since you need to give yourself some time.

Ps: I don't like Nodes. And standstill in this deck, why on earth ???

The concept is really interesting, but, as everyone said, the deck needs some win condition.
Here's my catch on it:

Landx23
4 * Flooded Strand
4 * Plains
7 * Island
2 * Tundra
1 * Academy Ruins (quite good with EE and giving you back countered SDT)
1 * Windswept Heath
4 * Mishra's factory (Win condition and additional lands, in place of Moxes)

Spellsx37
1 * Back to Basics
4 * Brainstorm
4 * Counterbalance
4 * Force of Will
1 * Propaganda
4 * Standstill (might work better now with Mishra's)
3 * Words of Wind
4 * Enlightened Tutor
1 * Oblivion Ring
4 * Sensei's Divining Top
3 * Swords to Plowshares
3 * Trinket mage (additional wincon and tutor for Top and EE)
1 * Engineered Explosives

Or, alternatively, cut Standstill entirely and play
+1 Runed Halo (solution to combo)
+1 Relic of progenitus
+1 Trinket
+1 Swords

Or
+1 Runed Halo (solution to combo)
+1 Relic of progenitus
+2 Jace Beleren (for its awesomeness with words and as a wincondition)

Or +3 Stifle, +1 Dreadnought

EDIT: even some game-breaking enchantment like Moat should be inspectioned.
EDIT2: After a bit of testing Back to Basics sucks when running Mishra's. Needs to be cut for something.

The biggest issue with your builds is the lack of 2CC cards for counterbalance. I have some difficulties too:

0CC: 21
1EE
8Ufetches
3Wfetches
5islands
1plains
1academy ruins
2tundras

1CC: 17
4tops
4BS
4ET
4STP
1Relic

2CC: 9
4CB
1Hoofprint
1Runed Halo
3Counterspell (or something else blue and @2CC, like boomerang, or some CA like predict...)

3CC: 9
2WoW
4Trinket Mage
2ORing
1B2B

5CC: 4
4FoW

Hoofprint maybe deserves more than 1 slot.

Helm of Awakening + Brain Freeze can be the way to go, once you already has Top, and can tutor for 1 or 2 off Helm.

Alright, mass reply, go!

Standstill is good. It's not quite as effective as it is in Landstill, but it's still good. Against almost anything other than Landstill variants (including Merfolk), it's basically a 2cc draw 3. Plus, if they do choose to wait it out, Standstill can cut their number of stalling turns by three. It can also serve as Mox/FoW bait.

Jace is interesting, but seems like a 100% dead card at any time other than the end game. Just Goyf food.

Porphyry Nodes is actually pretty great. Against 1+ creatures, it's a Wrath. Against only one, it's spot removal.

Back to Basics does not suck when running Mishra's Factory, Mishra's Factory sucks when running Back to Basics. Back to Basics stays.

Chrome Mox is very necessary. As I said early, this deck likes its mana. Plus, a turn3 lock is just too good to pass up.

I actually haven't even seen a Pithing Needle in all my testing, though, it would mean GG. I think I'll add 1xEE. It'll get rid of Vial, Needle, any Moxes that decide to screw with WoW, etc. That also means 1xAcademy Ruins.

Trinket Mage could very well be the win con. It'd let me search for EE, Top, and anything else I might decide to run.


I'm testing out an updated version from all this feedback right now. I'll tell you how it goes, soon.

p.s. This deck does not need moar Goyf.

p.p.s. I already said in the OP that Stifle was strictly filler.

If you have Standstill out, you can't bounce things with Top. If you don't have anything to bash with under Standstill, you can't run it. Plus, if you ever draw off Standstill, it's very likely that you can't deck your opponent.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Anusien

If you have Standstill out, you can't bounce things with Top. If you don't have anything to bash with under Standstill, you can't run it. Plus, if you ever draw off Standstill, it's very likely that you can't deck your opponent.

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If I'm bouncing things with Top, it means I'm going for the win, and I don't need the cards or care very much that my opponent draws cards. In fact, I may be happy that my opponent is drawing cards.

Why can't I run it without creatures? If they don't play anything and just try and wait it out, I'm just going to continue filling my hand until I get my lock in hand. And when I do find my lock, I can play it without a care in the world. Of course, this is less effective against Landstill, which is why I board it out ASAP. It still serves as Mox/FoW fodder, though.

A large factor of the combo is that I can choose never to draw again. This means that I can be down to one card in my library, and still win.

p.s. Think of it this way...

Standstill 1U
Enchantment
Players can't play spells until you decide it's convenient.

The main problem with standstill is so many decks are better at abusing it than you are. You can't afford to drop one if they have any clock on you, since you simply can't operate under standstill.

Regarding standstill:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by iamajellydonut

Why can't I run it without creatures? If they don't play anything and just try and wait it out, I'm just going to continue filling my hand until I get my lock in hand. And when I do find my lock, I can play it without a care in the world. Of course, this is less effective against Landstill, which is why I board it out ASAP. It still serves as Mox/FoW fodder, though.

A large factor of the combo is that I can choose never to draw again. This means that I can be down to one card in my library, and still win.

p.s. Think of it this way...

Standstill 1U
Enchantment
Players can't play spells until you decide it's convenient.

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Because many of the decks in today's metagame play creatures themselves, nearly all of them being one and two drops. Should an opponent resolve a goyf, (or, god help you a lackey or a mongoose) your standstills you draw (or all of them, if your opponent is on the play) after that are dead cards, and you are on a very short clock, and are pretty much SOL if you don't see a swords/O ring. (swords in the case of lackey) The 'well I just counter/swords their early threats' argument is invalid, as many/most of these decks play as many or more counterspells than you do, and some decks in the meta play vial. Standstill is absolute garbage here, no offense, but you cannot abuse it or pressure your opponent to break it, and the times you don't resolve it turn two on the play will be vastly outnumbered by the number of times your opponent will resolve a threat before you have the opportunity to land your standstill.

That said, I like the concept of the deck, and can see it being easily tier 1.5 if your skills in refinement match your skills in innovation. Good luck.

Also, for the love of god, cut mox for the reasons already mentioned. I would like to see a moat in the main as an 'oops, i win' card against much of the meta.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Zir

The main problem with standstill is so many decks are better at abusing it than you are. You can't afford to drop one if they have any clock on you, since you simply can't operate under standstill.

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Then what do I put in place of it? I have no other draw.

Edit: Maybe an Enchantress? But that would force me into 3 colors, making Back to Basics less effective and opening me for some random events.

Edit2.0: An Enchantress would also let me use something as random as Back to Basics for a less effective lock. Just a thought.