[Deck] Senor Weenie

So the story behind this deck starts when Dave Gearhart doesn't want to go to the SCG 1k in Roanoke because he doesn't have a deck to play. I really wanted to try to build something that smashed aggro and yet wasn't completely dead to combo and control, so I thought of a deck Chris Woltereck had played way back when that included sets of Dark Confidant, Descendant of Kiyamaro, and Jotun Grunt, plus 8 hymn effects. I wrote up a list that included aether vial, which was scrapped as there are only 16 creatures in the deck, and Tarmogoyf instead of Grunt. Vampire Nighthawk also had a lot of promise, and Dave wanted to play something that "drew alot of cards". With Confidant and lifelink creatures + Sylvan Library/Skeletal Scrying there is a lot of drawing power here. Combine that with 8 Hymn effects and you have a solid way to stay ahead of your opponent on cards.
We put the deck together and Dave plays it at the 1k, making 2nd. He named the deck "Senor Weenie", as my last name is Signorini and sometimes people say it that way in jest. Here is the current list:

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Vampire Nighthawk
4 Descendant of Kiyomaro

4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Gerrard's Verdict
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Sylvan Library
2 Skeletal Scrying
2 Umezawa's Jitte

4 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Bayou
4 Scrubland
1 Savannah
2 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Plains

Board:
4 Krosan Grip
4 Path to Exile
3 Choke
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Relic of Progenitus

Dave played 2 Maelstrom Pulses that he was not very impressed with, and only 20 lands. The lone Savannah was not there originally and should help fix
the manabase.

The Merfolk matchup is quite stellar, and Zoo, although not thoroughly tested, also has problems with so much discard and lifegain. Your plan against aggro in general is to run them out of cards and stay ahead in the life total race. Descendant is obviously quite a beating against aggressive strategies.

Counter/top is much more dicey, although you do have a few powerful lines of play there. A full set of Grips and 3 Chokes in the board try to alleviate the disparity here. Slower control strategies like Landstill have not really been tested, but with so many avenues of card advantage and the back breaker that is Sylvan Library it shouldn't be all that bad.

Storm combo is not the best matchup, especially the faster variations, but is winnable with the right hand. The board could potentially be built to beat these decks, but the extra removal and yard hate is probably more useful overall. That is until everyone starts playing belcher or TES. Engineered Explosives over Path's in the board is one possible configuration that would help against Belcher and Ichorid, and possibly keep the Ad Nauseum decks from slow rolling you through your discard by dropping artifact mana. That is much more of a stretch though.

I'll update this post with more testing data as we get it. Let me know what you guys think and if there are any glaringly obvious card choices we may have overlooked. If you find yourself facing a lot of Zoo and Merfolk this is a pretty strong choice.

Edit: Doran might be much better in the main over Jitte, moving them to the board.

Def a deck that would benefit from Doran, but would it still be Weenie with that big tree?

Hows the matchup against Goblins? As it's much more CA geared (compared to Zoo). And what about Canadian Thresh? It seems like it could prey on your mana base quite easily.

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Originally Posted by nitewolf9

Edit: Doran might be much better in the main over Jitte, moving them to the board.

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Doran seems like the right call, as you said you already have a decent match against Aggro (where Jitte is better, but Doran is still good), so it makes sense to have another must answer threat against Control decks (that generally don't care about Jitte, since they're just killing all your guys anyways if they can manage it), and also better against CounterTop decks (another 3cc spell to get through CBalance).

EDIT: It seems like I'd want to try and jam a 1 of Vindicate into this deck (with the amount of card drawing you have ok chances of drawing it) just as an answer to whatever your opponent resolves that makes you go ".... really? .... "

Really cool deck. Any deck that can use Descendant of Kiyomaro is automatically awesome. Is Knight of Meadowgrain too small to use? Well I'll answer my own question and say yes since Zoo doesn't play anything that has an ass less than 3 unless its not attacking (Lavamancer).

Hm.

Yea, Doran seems a nice fit, and makes all your guys better except Confidant.

Why do you need 8 swords if the deck is already beating up aggro? It seems like overkill.

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I really wanted to try to build something that smashed aggro and yet wasn't completely dead to combo and control

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Supreme Blue?

Seems more like a variation on The Rock than a new archetype, but I like the innovations.

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Originally Posted by keys

Seems more like a variation on The Rock than a new archetype, but I like the innovations.

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Doesn't seem much like the Rock at all. This deck actually has a pretty focused plan- beat up on aggro with life-gain, backed up with card draw and discard.

Dude, finally- a deck that breaks Descendant! This looks pretty freaking cool.

How has Skeletal Scrying been working out for y'all though? It seems a little strange, since I imagine it would usually draw you around two cards, which basically makes it Night's Whisper, except more dissynergous with Goyf. Between Bob, Sylvan Library, and Scrying, I'd imagine the card drawing is pretty plentiful, but Scrying still seems sorta odd.

I agree that Jitte should maybe become Doran. Other critts that might bear consideration are Pridemage, Knight of the Reliquary, maybe even Tombstalker as like a sideboard option or something.

how was Descendant of Kiyomaro throughout the day?

The more I think about it, the more I think you want a 3rd Doran. As stated he's still good against aggro decks, provides a legitimate must answer threat for control decks and an actual clock against combo decks (Turn 1 Thoughtseize, Turn 2 Hymn/Verdict, Turn 3 Doran seems like it gives you a fighting chance as opposed to playing Nighthawk or Descendant on turn 3 instead).

Perhaps cut a Sylvan Library for the 3rd Doran? You already have 4 Confidant and 2 Skeletal Scrying (obviously you really only want to resolve 1 Library), it seems that having 8 "draw" spells should be sufficient.

Is Descendant a certainty to be better than Kitchen Finks?

After testing today, I've realized a couple of things.

1. Thoughtseize is terrible. At the tournament, it was only good against the double Standstill draw against Merfolk. Every other time I drew it, I was dissatisfied. Plus, it sucks against Zoo (unless you hit Tarmogoyf or Sylvan Library).

2. The deck needs to speed up. Neither Doran nor Vindicate do that. In fact, they're both slow as balls. After a short consultation with Dan, I tried out Chrome Mox and saw some (but not too much) improvement with that.

3. Descendant of Kiyomaro is phenomenal against Merfolk, but significantly less stellar against Zoo because of Sylvan Library. Plus, with the amount of removal Zoo plays, it's difficult to get a creature to stick. Dark Confidant is a completely dead draw in that match, and that makes it hard to keep up cards against them.

4. Maelstrom Pulse is awful. It's too slow, and can't wipe multiple creatures. Plus, it's not even guaranteed to resolve through a Counterbalance (as opposed to something like Engineered Explosives).

Here's the list that I ended up using after testing:

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Gerrard's Verdict
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
3 Sylvan Library
4 Vampire Nighthawk
4 Descendant of Kiyomaro
3 Engineered Explosives
3 Skeletal Scrying

3 Chrome Mox

4 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Scrubland
4 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Plains

I started with the original list against Zoo. I got 0-5'd. After that, I decided that there needed to be some changes. Not only did I want a couple of more mana sources, but I also needed to speed up my deck in order to fight them more effectively.

At first, I tried more removal (in Path to Exile), but I still couldn't keep up with them in cards because Dark Confidant was a blank, and Skeletal Scrying required a lot of mana (like four), in order to get me back in the game. Plus, every turn I spent making them discard, was another turn that they attacked for free. But if I didn't make them discard and instead used the turn to make a guy to block, they'd either vomit more guys on the table or remove my guy and get a swing in anyway.

Explosives is very solid against Zoo, and it helps against Counter/Top as well. Having more draw effects means that when I stabilize, I can keep the upper hand. It's imperative that you have enough draw effects to make sure Descendant stays good. A 2/3 for three that doesn't do anything is awful. The fact that he requires as much upkeep as he does makes him suspect as it is. It's likely that he may not remain a four of.

The tournament that I played this at wasn't really huge enough for me to make a full blown tournament report thread, so I'll just sum up here:

Round 1: Daniel S. playing Merfolk (eventually top 8'd)
Game 1: Double Thoughtseize on the play takes both Standstills. We fight for awhile, but the fact that he has no removal makes it shaky as all hell for him. Plus, since I have no Islands, he doesn't have any evasion and my Tarmogoyfs/Descendants eat him. I end the game at twenty-three to his one.

Game 2: Similar, but there are Jitte shenanigans.

Round 2: Burn
Game 1: I play lifelink guys. Also, lots of discard. This is legitimately the worst match up in the entire tournament for him.
Game 2: See game one but with a Pyrostatic Pillar and Sulfuric Vortex making things a lot closer.

Round 3: Dave Price playing New Horizons
We talk about drawing but play it out.
Game 1: He blows me out with Wasteland.
Game 2: I board in nine cards. I destroy him with all of my Swords effects.
After game 2, I decide to draw.

Round 4: guy with B/G aggro
Game 1: Mulligan to five and Ritualed Hippy on the first turn. Seems good.
Game 2: A bunch of Swords effects and Tarmogoyf end him.
Game 3: Same as game two.

Round 5: Kevin Kehoe playing Belcher
We draw.

Top 8 splits.

The deck was good to me and I got some really good match ups. Merfolk is a cakewalk with this deck. Burn is a complete joke.

I like the deck, but Zoo and possibly Counter/Top are match ups that need to be investigated. It's possible that Counter/Top can be answered with Grip/Choke in the board, and having the Paths in the board for Zoo might make it viable with the changes in the main. It's a bit closer to even pre-board with what I was playing (probably sixty/forty their favor in game one). So it will still be difficult. Especially since they could board Swords to make life even more difficult post-board.

Needs more extirpate.:cool:

If your goal was to build a deck which crushes aggro while not sucking against combo and control, and you came up with a deck which got raped by Zoo and was also not so great against combo, and then you changed it to be somewhat less bad against Zoo but even worse against combo, then it doesn't sound like you've succeeded at your goal.

also,

Rhox War Monk: Like Descendant of Kiyomaro, minus the hassle.

I've been messing around with lists pretty similar to this lately, though this looks a lot better than anything I came up with. I came to a similar conclusion regarding Thoughtseize, though I've still kept it as a 3-of because Standstill (and Goblin Ringleader) was proving to be an enormous problem, but I wasn't running as much CA as you.

Nighthawk is pretty awesome. If he didn't eat bolt, he'd be completely nuts, but he's still quite a beating against... pretty much everything.

I've been running at least one Stronghold in most the lists I've been trying, and I've been pretty satisfied with it. Ever test it out as a 1-of?

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Originally Posted by Tacosnape

Is Descendant a certainty to be better than Kitchen Finks?

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I'm interested in this as well. Both have obvious strengths and weaknesses, and Descendant seems incredibly underwhelming if your CA plan gets foiled.

isnt dark ritual better than chrome mox here? you get to turn1 hymn/nighthawk..

Capitalization is required on this site. Use it. -zilla

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Originally Posted by sauce

isnt dark ritual better than chrome mox here? you get to turn1 hymn/nighthawk..

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But that's pretty much it. You also get turn one Hymn off of Chrome Mox and a swamp, but that's beside the point.

Mox provides consistent mana acceleration, but is probably worse than running Hierarch or Birds (Birds is likely better because of all of the black mana requirements, even though Exalted is the better ability here).

I would think that Qasali Pridemage deserves a spot in the list, probably instead of Descendant (which seems weak). Finks is probably better at racing than Descendant from a damage perspective and is easier to cast, but gains much less life over time. I'd still be inclined to go with Finks simply because Descendant seems so underwhelming.

Descendant of Kiyomaro was originally added to BW Confidant shells to fix up the Goblins matchup. Doesn't seem like Goblins is much of a threat right now, and you said it's pretty marginal against Zoo. What about replacing Descendant with Doran? That way you can keep the Jitte, and replace one three-drop with another. Doran seems much better against Zoo and CB decks than Descendant, who you can sit in the board if you need it to beat Merfolk and random red decks.

This is just The Rock with additional life gain creatures, and Library instead of Top. Not that I don't appreciate the changes, but I don't see how you can pass this off as something entirely new.

Chrome Mox seems awkward. What about STE? Noble Hierarch would be perfect except for no black.

Whenever I see people playing Gerrard's Verdict I have to show them Rise/Fall.

Fall
Sorcery - BR
Target player reveals two cards at random from his or her hand, then discards each nonland card revealed this way.


That card is infinitely better. It is the only "Discard 2 random for 2" (worth playing) besides Hymn.

Go with red instead of white, I'll make a list tomorrow.