Counter-Rebel Still

I know that there was a Counter Rebel thread here but for some reason my work computer is crapping on me.

Anyways, Theres a Legacy tournament happening next week and I wanted to try something new. So far my decks have been mono-colored tribal decks in the form of X-land Elvish Stompy, Vial Goblins and Merfolk.

I would love to build other cards but I dont really have fetchlands or dual lands.

My meta is mostly aggro and control (from Zoo, Ux Still, Goblins, Staxx, Fish and an assortment of rogue decks)

Anyhow, this is my attempt to build a tier 2 Counter-Rebel Still with a poor landbase:

Lands:
15 Plains
7 Island

Creatures:
2 Lin Sivvi, Defiant Hero
2 Ramosian Lieutenant
1 Amrou Scout
1 Defiant Falcon

2 Mirror Entity
1 Big Game Hunter

X- other useful rebels...

Others:
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Mana Leak
4 Mana Tithe
3 AEther Vial
3 Standstill
3 Brainstorm
2 Rewind

As you can see, the deck looks like crap. It definitely needs help

I was wondering if we could fit CounterTop engine to this on top of the Still for counterspells. This way, we can utilize more slots on Rebels

Speaking of Rebels, I dont really know which one to use. I have most of the Rebels as a 1 or 2-of from my EDH deck.

If anyone has any positive comments and suggestions, please feel free to add.

This deck really like mana and shuffling. In my casual tribal deck I'm using Diving Top and Cloudpost to get loads of mana and with all the shuffling, Top really becomes a strong card to play.

I recommend to keep the blue a splash, which means no Counterbalance. With a budget mana base, double blue is just to hard.

For rebels, use 4 1 drops, 4-6 2 drops, 2 Lin-Sivvi, 2 heavy hitters and the rebel enchantment (silence something???). It's like playing a fetchable Pacifism, quite nice.

I would also play 4 Swords to Plowshares and with the Top, 1-2 Disenchant so you always have some answers maindeck. With Top out, you can find them or keep from drawing them, as preferred.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Just me

This deck really like mana and shuffling. In my casual tribal deck I'm using Diving Top and Cloudpost to get loads of mana and with all the shuffling, Top really becomes a strong card to play.

I recommend to keep the blue a splash, which means no Counterbalance. With a budget mana base, double blue is just to hard.

For rebels, use 4 1 drops, 4-6 2 drops, 2 Lin-Sivvi, 2 heavy hitters and the rebel enchantment (silence something???). It's like playing a fetchable Pacifism, quite nice.

I would also play 4 Swords to Plowshares and with the Top, 1-2 Disenchant so you always have some answers maindeck. With Top out, you can find them or keep from drawing them, as preferred.

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Do you have a list that you want to share?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by (nameless one)

Do you have a list that you want to share?

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based on his post...

Creatures 13-15
4 Ramosian Sergeant
3 Amrou Scout
2 Whipcorder
2 Lin Sivvi, Defiant Hero
1 Big Game Hunter
1-2 Mirror Entity
0-2 Open

Spells 21-25
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
3-4 Sensei's Divining Top
2-4 Standstill
1-2 Disenchant
1 Bound in Silence
6-10 Open

Land 22-24
Probably ~2.5:1 ratio of W to U.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by (nameless one)

If anyone has any positive comments and suggestions, please feel free to add.

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The general strategy behind Counter Rebels when it was a Standard deck was just to counter a couple bombs a game and win on the back of having a better creature (board position) engine than opposing decks. That is to say that it wasn't really a counter heavy deck, the majority of lists I remember splashed for Power Sink, Brainstorm, and sometimes Counterspell and Meddling Mage.

At the time it had good game against opposing creature decks because it could afford to take some early damage and then Steadfast Guards and Defiant Vanguards allowed it to take out attackers repeatedly and the Fliers could get in there. Versus control it had Ramosian Sergeant which resolved in before Counterspell was online, so they could chain out a Defiant Falcon and Lin Sivvi, forcing the Uw or Ub deck to Wrath or Tsabo's Decree and then when then either have counter mana up for a Counterspell or Power Sink, or just take advantage of the following turn when the opponent was tapped out to lay another recruiter, and repeat the process. Counter Rebels won the attrition battle because Lin Sivvi recycled the other guys, and the control decks only had 4-6 board sweep effects.

Porting the deck to Legacy is hard because the card pool is just so different. Ramosian Sergeant isn't that bomb against control, they can Swords it or Force of Will it, so it doesn't automatically become active and guarantee a trade with a sweeper effect. Lin Sivvi is also vulnerable to Swords and Path, with RFG effects the recycle ability doesn't offer the same inevitability it once did. Additionally, with Aether Vial the ability to curve out uncounterably is pretty readily available to any tribe/creatures, so by comparison the vanilla 1/1s and 2/1s don't really look that great next to Goblin Lackey, Lord of Atlantis, and the finishers don't compare to Siege-Gang Commander.

I don't mean to sound discouraging, but the meta you posted sounds fairly developed and in all honesty I don't see the Rebel tribe competing.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by from Cairo

based on his post...

Creatures 13-15
4 Ramosian Sergeant
3 Amrou Scout
2 Whipcorder
2 Lin Sivvi, Defiant Hero
1 Big Game Hunter
1-2 Mirror Entity
0-2 Open

Spells 21-25
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
3-4 Sensei's Divining Top
2-4 Standstill
1-2 Disenchant
1 Bound in Silence
6-10 Open

Land 22-24
Probably ~2.5:1 ratio of W to U.



The general strategy behind Counter Rebels when it was a Standard deck was just to counter a couple bombs a game and win on the back of having a better creature (board position) engine than opposing decks. That is to say that it wasn't really a counter heavy deck, the majority of lists I remember splashed for Power Sink, Brainstorm, and sometimes Counterspell and Meddling Mage.

At the time it had good game against opposing creature decks because it could afford to take some early damage and then Steadfast Guards and Defiant Vanguards allowed it to take out attackers repeatedly and the Fliers could get in there. Versus control it had Ramosian Sergeant which resolved in before Counterspell was online, so they could chain out a Defiant Falcon and Lin Sivvi, forcing the Uw or Ub deck to Wrath or Tsabo's Decree and then when then either have counter mana up for a Counterspell or Power Sink, or just take advantage of the following turn when the opponent was tapped out to lay another recruiter, and repeat the process. Counter Rebels won the attrition battle because Lin Sivvi recycled the other guys, and the control decks only had 4-6 board sweep effects.

Porting the deck to Legacy is hard because the card pool is just so different. Ramosian Sergeant isn't that bomb against control, they can Swords it or Force of Will it, so it doesn't automatically become active and guarantee a trade with a sweeper effect. Lin Sivvi is also vulnerable to Swords and Path, with RFG effects the recycle ability doesn't offer the same inevitability it once did. Additionally, with Aether Vial the ability to curve out uncounterably is pretty readily available to any tribe/creatures, so by comparison the vanilla 1/1s and 2/1s don't really look that great next to Goblin Lackey, Lord of Atlantis, and the finishers don't compare to Siege-Gang Commander.

I don't mean to sound discouraging, but the meta you posted sounds fairly developed and in all honesty I don't see the Rebel tribe competing.

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Fair enough...

Although, would it fit in a Quinn-esque deck?

Tool box anything that you need, backed up with Enlightened Tutor to tutor necessary enchantments and artifacts needed to win the game

Maybe a combo-control version?

The problem with Rebels is that they all suck except at tutoring up other Rebels, but whats the point in tutoring up other Rebels if they also suck?

Merfolk have lords which is why they can get away with Silvergill Adept and Cursecatcher, both of have better utility than the Rebels anyway.

I have played a Death and Taxes list with a few rebels, and I came to the following conclusions:

Knight of the holy nimbus is great. That your opponent needs to use {2} to kill him is oftentimes bad for him, but maybe thats just nice because D&T runs a lot of mana denial.
A single whipcorder or two is quite nice. He taps opponents goyfs/terravore/countryside crusher or whatever nasty stuff they're playing.
You definately needs a single Mirror Entity. He makes it possible to win fast out of nowhere. Tutor him up at the end of your opponents turn, with 2-3 other creatures, and win.
A single Children of Korlis, for a softlock is really awesome, although pretty expensive to run (4 each turn).

There is a rebel infinite life combo that is pretty easy to pull off. You are trying to be budget though, so I assume a Gaea's Cradle is out of the question?

so.... can this deck work out with Training Grounds?

Add CounterTop engine, possibly a combo-control version?

In the spanish forum about Legacy we are testing two list. One with Countertop and another with Standstill.
The rebels + Training grounds works like a charm, but nobody like counterbalance or standstill. We must find a different approach.

We're coming to this schema:
- 19/20 Lands UW
- 8-12 recruiters rebels (4 Ramosian, 2 Lin Sivvi)
- 5-6 utility rebels
- 1 Miror entity
- 4 Training Grounds
- Fill as you want.

I begin with 4 Standstill and go to -2. You don't want to draw rebels too early. You need them in your deck to recruit.

For reference without sideboards:

Training Rebels with Standstill
// Lands
1 Karakas
2 Marsh Flats
6 Plains
3 Island
4 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand

// Creatures
2 Defiant Falcon
4 Amrou Scout
1 Shield Dancer
1 Defiant Vanguard
1 Mirror Entity
2 Lin Sivvi, Defiant Hero
3 Children of Korlis
4 Ramosian Sergeant
1 Whipcorder

// Spells
4 Brainstorm
3 Counterspell
1 Bound in Silence
4 Training Grounds
4 Force of Will
3 Path to Exile
2 Standstill

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Training Rebels with Countertop
// Lands
1 Karakas
1 Kor Haven
3 Marsh Flats
2 Island
2 Plains
4 Flooded Strand
4 Tundra
2 Hallowed Fountain

// Creatures
1 Children of Korlis
1 Mirror Entity
2 Lin Sivvi, Defiant Hero
2 Defiant Vanguard
2 Amrou Scout
2 Whipcorder
4 Ramosian Sergeant
1 Knight of the Holy Nimbus

// Spells
1 Bound in Silence
3 Daze
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Path to Exile
4 Counterbalance
4 Training grounds
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm

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Ramosian Sergeant is the best recruiter and 1st turn sergeant, 2nd turn Training Grounds is great. We are choosing the utility slots and the recruiter numbers yet.
Mirror Entity grants a combo-attack finish like in Elves, but you can search for so with double Grounds you can make your critters 5/5 for :1: +:1: (one for search and another one to activate Mirror).
Brainstorm and Top works very well with so many shuffle effects, but as I said, nobody seems to like Counterbalance slot.
Bound in Silence is the secret tech. You can stop any reanimator monster for little mana and nobody expect it.
Counters are here for the massive removal.

The deck is funnier as hell but needs some work.
I want to try adding Ponder or Enlightened Tutor to find TG earlier.

Do you like it?

Training Grounds also reduces the cost of Knight of the Holy Nimbus' activated ability, so opponents don't have to pay 2 to destroy him. That's quite an argument against playing him.

Big Game Hunter could be a nice addition to the deck. You can get him out via the rebels ability and even if you draw him, you can still shuffle him back with Brainstorm. I would try to fit in some flyer's and Umezawa's Jitte. With that shitload of shuffle effects, you should be able to find Jitte early on. Aven Riftwatcher could be a nice addition to the deck against aggro strategies to stabilize before you get the Counterbalance softlock into play. He is also good at wearing Jitte. Hell, even Zealot Il-Vec could be good at wearing Jitte or destroying utility creatures like Dark Confidant or Noble Hierarch. I most likely would replace Amrou Scout with Defiant Falcon, if you're going to play equipments. Both have Thoughness 1, but the Falcon has evasion, which is really needed with equipments. Dunerider Outlaw could be a good sideboard option against Bant Decks. Every Critter they play is green and you can fetch him really early on with Ramosian Sergeant. He should grow really fast. He's also good against Canadian, if you catch them offguard without burn spells in their hand.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by flrn

Training Grounds also reduces the cost of Knight of the Holy Nimbus' activated ability, so opponents don't have to pay 2 to destroy him. That's quite an argument against playing him.

Big Game Hunter could be a nice addition to the deck. You can get him out via the rebels ability and even if you draw him, you can still shuffle him back with Brainstorm. I would try to fit in some flyer's and Umezawa's Jitte. With that shitload of shuffle effects, you should be able to find Jitte early on. Aven Riftwatcher could be a nice addition to the deck against aggro strategies to stabilize before you get the Counterbalance softlock into play. He is also good at wearing Jitte. Hell, even Zealot Il-Vec could be good at wearing Jitte or destroying utility creatures like Dark Confidant or Noble Hierarch. I most likely would replace Amrou Scout with Defiant Falcon, if you're going to play equipments. Both have Thoughness 1, but the Falcon has evasion, which is really needed with equipments. Dunerider Outlaw could be a good sideboard option against Bant Decks. Every Critter they play is green and you can fetch him really early on with Ramosian Sergeant. He should grow really fast.

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Yes, I agree you, but is 2/2 Flanking for cc=2 so you can search it with sergeant. Some people like it

As I say, the utility rebels must be choosen yet. Big Game Hunter sees weaker that Vanguard or Shield Dancer, you can't target a lot of Zoo or Merfolk creatures. I don't know if the deck need Jitte, you can use the :4: mana that cost Jitte + equip to recruit Mirror Entity and make all your dudes 4/4, and you don't need to find it.

Dunerider Outlaw is a interesting card, but the deck makes 2-0 vs Bant in the tests (not many of them), I don't know if the deck would need it but waste a single slot, must try it.

As I posted in the Training Grounds thread in SCD, I strongly encourage the use of Shapesharer in the deck. He is excellent against a ton of Legacy archetypes and fits nicely into the deck. I might also strangely recommend Rebel Informer for various matchups, at least as long as Training Grounds is in play. For 1 mana off of Lin Sivvi and for 1 mana off of the Informer, he effectively saves any Rebel from removal. He himself is immune to Swords. These are both ideas that I immediately had in regards to the recently released Training Grounds.

Also, as a rules point, Training Grounds says "Up to {2} less", which means (as mentioned in the FAQ), that you do not need to apply Training Grounds to your creatures. Knight of the Holy Nimbus will still cost {2} to suppress, if you so choose. And of course, you will obviously choose not to apply that effect to the Knight.

-ktkenshinx-

We are trying to make the deck not many dependent of TG, without it Shapesharer needs many mana that you need to recruit.

I like the effect of Rebel Informer, but I think that the deck doesn't need it, Lin Sivvi has the same effect except for Swords and Paths. You can't activate it without TG if you want to keep recruiting rebels, and with cc=3 you can't search for him with Sergeant, so you need to search a cc=2 rebel recruiter and search for them the next turn making it slow. With TG in play, you can simply search another Rebel with Sergeant, Mirror entity with the other recruiter and attack for kill with your 5/5 guys backuped with counters next turn. After some turns, you always would have more creatures than your opponent removal+creatures.

Anyway, I'll test both of them as a lonely slot. The deck would use a utility set of Rebels, but not many of them.

Good question with Mirror Entity:

Let say I have 2 Training Grounds; if I pay just 1 mana, would Mirror Entity activate for 5 mana?

Crib Swap seems like it would be good. Tutorable StP with Training Grounds out can't be a bad thing.

Unfortunately, you cannot recruit non-permanent rebels :(

Quote:

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Originally Posted by (nameless one)

Good question with Mirror Entity:

Let say I have 2 Training Grounds; if I pay just 1 mana, would Mirror Entity activate for 5 mana?

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Announce the ability for X=5, apply cost reducers, pay cost. Yes.

Also, OP's deck needs moar Terramorphic Expanse.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ktkenshinx

Also, as a rules point, Training Grounds says "Up to {2} less", which means (as mentioned in the FAQ), that you do not need to apply Training Grounds to your creatures. Knight of the Holy Nimbus will still cost {2} to suppress, if you so choose. And of course, you will obviously choose not to apply that effect to the Knight.

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This doesn't sound right. Your opponent (presumably) is paying the cost, so they get to choose whether or not to apply the reduction effect, correct?

These lists need more Umezawa's Jitte.