[Premium Article] The New Legacy Banned List, and What it Means for You

http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/l...s_For_You.html

Editor's Blurb:

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Monday, June 21st - Legacy has undergone a subtle change this past weekend, with the bannings and unrestrictions from the Powers That Be. Just how will the removal of Mystical Tutor affect the metagame? Even though it doesn’t kick in until July, will the news impact on this weekend’s StarCityGames.com Legacy Open in St. Louis? Stephen shares his initial thoughts

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Mods, please move this thread to the format discussion forum. Sorry about posting it in the wrong forum!

I wish this article hadn't been posted as a premium article, this kind of discussion is something that every person in the Legacy Community should be allowed to read, not just those with premium articles. But that is just my opinion.

I thought the same thing at first.
Then again, a discussion will surely ensue from those who could read the article. Then those of us without SCG premium memberships can participate.

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Originally Posted by Vacrix

I thought the same thing at first.
Then again, a discussion will surely ensue from those who could read the article. Then those of us without SCG premium memberships can participate.

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This is true, but it would always be nice to know what the discussion's basis is saying before you participate in such a conversation, wouldn't you agree?

I thought Legacy-based stuff was free on SCG (or was that just for a little bit?).

To address the blurb in the OP, at least, if you're heading down to St. Louis this weekend, I would stock up on combo/Reanimator hate while you can for this weekend, as I have a feeling a lot of people will be trying to have one last huzzah with their Mystical Tutors before officially throwing them in the dollar bin. I have a couple of friends already headed down who are without question playing ANT in its perceived final iteration.

Agreed. Maybe Stephen should just stop writing such good articles and then we could read them? :P

Anyway, until someone posts about something in the article we might as well start a discussion. ANT and Reanimator died. I think that having both of those decks in the format was a really, really bad thing. Very few people could play them optimally, even though both are very easy to play. I think the rise in popularity of NO Bant happened because it was easy for the CB players to kick the shit out of these decks. CB will likely be less popular now that a significant amount of the combo decks will disappear. Storm player can go back to beating the crap out of aggro without having to face 10 SB slots dedicated to the combo matchup, and players will be less familiar with all the variations this ban will bring to the table in the less popular storm decks like TES, NLS, Solidarity, and SI. Though I think storm got stronger, fewer people will play these decks simply because they require too much time and focus to play optimally.

DnT, Enchantress, and Aeon Bridge look like strong choices for where the meta is headed.

Good point. TES and friends are indeed thought intensive, and even in lower numbers I think you'll still want some dedicated hate (bears) in the SB to improve those matchups. That said, your assessment of DnT, Enchantress, and Aeon Bridge are most likely correct, I've already seen the latter two rise up in popularity (ironically, these three decks you mentioned also take time to learn and play optimally).

I also see dedicated control decks rising in popularity, which makes me sad to see more of Shushers, Chokes, and all that good stuff.

first off, tried to figure this out earlier today to no success, but what is NLS?

And I do agree that this change totally nerfed things like ANT and to a lesser extent Reanimator. I think Reanimator will still be present in the future, but it will be far less potent now that it doesn't in effect have 8 entomb's. However Ad Nauseam Tendrils has effectively been nerfed now that it is required to run far sub par tutors in relation to Mystical because now it will be forced to run at least 2 of each of its primary win conditions.

I do agree that DnT, and Enchantress both look like very strong contenders in the soon to develop meta. I am however less familiar with Aeon Bridge. I am assuming it is something to do with Emrakul.

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Originally Posted by DalkonCledwin

first off, tried to figure this out earlier today to no success, but what is NLS?

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Next Level Storm.


Aeon Bridge is a combo deck developed by Nightmare that uses Mosswort Bridge and a Phyrexian Dreadnought as the enabler. And yes, it does have Emrakul in it.

Thanks for name-dropping me. I love you too, broski.

Second, I think that combo is now functionally a non-entity anymore. ANT was as popular as it was because it's the most forgiving and easiest to learn of the extant Legacy combo decks. Belcher can win on turn one, sure, and sometimes you get to live the dream and Belch the other guy out. But sometimes your opponent is playing blue, and sometimes you just lose because you're playing the most unstable combo deck in the format. And sometimes - well, a friend of mine played Aggro Loam at SCG L.A. and faced Belcher round one. He kept a decent opener (three lands, Mox, Pulse, Crusher, Loam) and his opponent opted to make Goblin tokens. My friend topdecked Mox #2 and Pulsed the opponent's dorks - and won against a combo deck that had successfully gone off on turn one. With those kind of possibilities, I don't think Belcher has what it takes to be the format's premiere combo deck.

Solidarity is dead, and has been for years. Even when it was good, its fundamental turn was roughly the same as Goblins', so it could still lose to a fast draw from an aggro deck.

TES is the best positioned to take over the combo niche, but it has a much steeper learning curve, and even the deck's creator doesn't regularly dominate with it. Very few people can play the deck well, and I doubt many of the now deckless ANT players will be able to learn it by Columbus - hell, most of them couldn't even navigate their own decks.

I also think blue is effectively Tier II at this point. Zoo and Lands could already beat blue decks by either outmaneuvering them, or overpowering them. Those two decks just lost one of their worst matchups, so I'm not sure what's standing between them and running roughshod all over the blue players at Columbus. Like, a blue deck using counters is strategically inferior to a Zoo deck. If you're in a topdeck war and roughly even on the board, which of these "next three draws" is more likely to win the game: Nacatl-Bolt-Land, or Daze-Force-Land? Zoo is straight gas, and just plows over anyone who doesn't also draw straight gas.

Monolith doesn't really help most of the decks people think it helps, because as this Brian fellow pointed out, those decks are bad. Like, now Stax can drop turn one Trinisphere! Wow. I'm so scared.

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Originally Posted by Aggro_zombies

Second, I think that combo is now functionally a non-entity anymore. ANT was as popular as it was because it's the most forgiving and easiest to learn of the extant Legacy combo decks. Belcher can win on turn one, sure, and sometimes you get to live the dream and Belch the other guy out. But sometimes your opponent is playing blue, and sometimes you just lose because you're playing the most unstable combo deck in the format. And sometimes - well, a friend of mine played Aggro Loam at SCG L.A. and faced Belcher round one. He kept a decent opener (three lands, Mox, Pulse, Crusher, Loam) and his opponent opted to make Goblin tokens. My friend topdecked Mox #2 and Pulsed the opponent's dorks - and won against a combo deck that had successfully gone off on turn one. With those kind of possibilities, I don't think Belcher has what it takes to be the format's premiere combo deck.

Solidarity is dead, and has been for years. Even when it was good, its fundamental turn was roughly the same as Goblins', so it could still lose to a fast draw from an aggro deck.

TES is the best positioned to take over the combo niche, but it has a much steeper learning curve, and even the deck's creator doesn't regularly dominate with it. Very few people can play the deck well, and I doubt many of the now deckless ANT players will be able to learn it by Columbus - hell, most of them couldn't even navigate their own decks.

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Pretty good analysis. I think that Belcher and Solidarity are really on the same level. Neither is dead but neither is powerful enough to be 'the format's premiere combo deck' like ANT was. Belcher will do well in some metas and Solidarity will do well in others. I wouldn't venture to say that Solidarity is dead though. Merely glancing over the high frequency of Zoo decks in large tournaments would discourage me from ever playing it at a large event, but its a great deck to take to a heavy blue meta (like my local meta).

Also, I agree that shitting Goblin tokens is a pretty dumb when you could be storming out for the win. I think SI might see some more play. QSI fell out of the lime light when AdN hit the combo scene, but its completely unaffected by the MT ban. SITES is also a very fast list packing Burning Wish and a D4 engine. (for those interested in those lists, read the SI primer).

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Originally Posted by Vacrix

I think SI might see some more play. QSI fell out of the lime light when AdN hit the combo scene, but its completely unaffected by the MT ban. SITES is also a very fast list packing Burning Wish and a D4 engine. (for those interested in those lists, read the SI primer).

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Except basically no one in the broader Legacy metagame knows about these decks.

Any combo deck that takes ANT's place is going to be worse than ANT in some way. ANT was the combo deck with the most consistency, resiliency, speed, and ease of play. It became the best (or at least, most played) combo deck because all the alternatives were worse than it in at least one of those four areas. Some of those decks may see some more play now, but none of them will hit the sweet spot ANT did.

I'm really looking forward to hearing the explanation for this in the article on Friday, even though I have a feeling I already know what it is...

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Originally Posted by Aggro_zombies

I'm really looking forward to hearing the explanation for this in the article on Friday, even though I have a feeling I already know what it is...

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I would be interested in hearing your opinion on what you think the reasoning was for banning mystical tutor. Even if it is just that, an opinion. And I know some people will moan and ache about people listing their opinions. But until that article is posted all we have to go on is opinions. And even after it is listed, we may not have a definitive fact of the matter explanation.

Agreed! I'd rather that combo not hit a sweet spot. With Mystical Tutor gone, we have a very well defined continuum (as Rico Suave mentioned in the ANT thread)

Resiliency<-------Solidarity-------------Rev614-------NLS------TES------QSI-----ANT (dead)-----------Belcher-------SITES---------Pact SI----->Speed

Slow<--------------Turn 4-------------------------- Turn 3------------------------------------- Turn 2------------------------------------------Turn 1--->Fast

Fortunately, all of those decks (Belcher as the exception) are difficult to pilot well. I think most of these decks are optimized to the point at which your play skill determines your consistency. Spring Tide could probably also go on that list but I don't even know if anyone plays it anymore.

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Originally Posted by DalkonCledwin

I would be interested in hearing your opinion on what you think the reasoning was for banning mystical tutor. Even if it is just that, an opinion. And I know some people will moan and ache about people listing their opinions. But until that article is posted all we have to go on is opinions. And even after it is listed, we may not have a definitive fact of the matter explanation.

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Well, as I said in the thread discussing the banning, it feels to me like the DCI didn't do the research. They decided after Madrid that combo decks using Mystical Tutor as setup were too good because they beat the aggro decks and won the whole thing, so the DCI just said, "Mystical Tutor is standing in the way of people bashing each other with guys, so it has to go."

Personally, I think Zoo is more boring to play against than combo. Like, at least with combo, there's that "Is he actually going to get it or will he fizzle?" moment. With Zoo, it's just "RAWR BASH BURN RAWR," rinse and repeat until someone dies.

EDIT: I mean, I realize people like Zoo more because it feels like what they're doing matters - like they're playing the game. But depending on what you're playing, what you're doing may actually be totally irrelevant - if you're a blue deck, for example, you're basically down a match once pairings are called. It's just that Zoo isn't polite enough to inform you of that as quickly as combo does because it's full of rabid animals and pyrotechnic effects instead of sophisticated engines.

EDIT 2: It may also have something to do with all of the pros going, "ZOMG REANIMATOR IS TEH BEST DECK EVAR" all over the place. I mean, yeah, Reanimtor is good (especially if you play it correctly), but it's not the number one bestest deck ever in the whole wide format, as Pat Chapin and others believe. It's likely that the format would have adjusted to compensate for Reanimator's presence by Columbus, which would have made it much harder for non-pro and pro players alike to get anywhere with the deck.

Rev614 [Shelldrazi] may also be dead as well unless you replace Mystical with 4x Personal Tutor. Even then it loses its ability to find the mana sources if needed.

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Originally Posted by death

Rev614 [Shelldrazi] may also be dead as well unless you replace Mystical with 4x Personal Tutor. Even then it loses its ability to find the mana sources if needed.

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I believe Emidln (that is the user name on salvation of the guy who is primarily responsible for creating Rev614) has suggested running Lim Dul's Vault in place of Mystical Tutor in that deck at the least. I don't know if it is a perfect replacement for all decks, but in Rev614 where neither Ad Nauseam nor Reanimate are present it seems like a solid card choice.

Aggro-Zombies, I think you may be right about their decision making process. However if it was about them doing too little research, then they won't admit to it in all likelyhood. Or at least will likely state that it was based off of tournament reports, while not specifically stating which ones. If however it is based off pro analysis, they again may not state it due to not wanting to appear to have appealed to favoritism or some such.

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Well, as I said in the thread discussing the banning, it feels to me like the DCI didn't do the research. They decided after Madrid that combo decks using Mystical Tutor as setup were too good because they beat the aggro decks and won the whole thing, so the DCI just said, "Mystical Tutor is standing in the way of people bashing each other with guys, so it has to go."

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I mean, look at Menendian's breakdown on Madrid and look at how the Mystical Tutor decks outperform the rest of the field every step of the way.

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Originally Posted by frogboy

I mean, look at Menendian's breakdown on Madrid and look at how the Mystical Tutor decks outperform the rest of the field every step of the way.

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Oh scratch what I just said as I thought you were referencing that article he just posted (didn't even occur to me that you meant another article).

Yes, I think we all can agree that Madrid was dominated by decks that utilized Mystical Tutor in one fashion or another. However the problem with basing a decision on a single tournament is that that is I believe what is called a "biased sample" or something very similar. It is not a big enough pool of information in the grand scheme of things to make any judgment call about whether a card is over powered or whether a given strategy is dominating enough to warrant a banning. As such I think that things need to be evaluated from across several tournaments. That is where websites such as deck check come in really handy.

And as a note of interest, going by sheer numbers of decks present at Grand Prix Madrid there were combined only 175 Ad Nauseam Tendrils and Reanimator decks (don't know how many of said decks ran Mystical Tutor). On the other hand there was a deck present that had over 200 decks within its own archetype all on its own. That deck was Zoo, with 225 versions of the deck present. If you want to talk about dominating the field, I think Zoo qualifies. But I doubt that the DCI is going to ban anything in Zoo on the basis that it is an inherently more interactive deck than either Ad Nauseam Tendrils or Reanimator.