Re: Jedi_gofs GB Vengevival
I like the idea, and have tried GB VVSuvival before, but there is a reason people stick to UG and WG: Discard+ Big Game Hunter/Shriekmaw are just not enough. UG Madness has 4 Force, 3-4 Daze, 3-4 Spell Pierce, 4 Aquameoba, Wonder (Straight Game-Winner), and possibly Intuition. GW Survival has StP effects (Which will always outclass any black removal, Iona + Retainers, KotR, Gaddock Teeg, and Qasali Pridemage. All black brings to the table is Thoughtsieze/Cabal Therapy + Big Game Hunter/Shriekmaw. Discard all requires mana during your turn, which means you either have less to spend on Survival, or less to spend casting a discard outlet. Putrid Imp is a terrible beater, unlike Wild Mongrel and you're not running Jittes to compensate for VVSur's subpar creature stats. Being able to run Extirpate is very nice for the mirror, but very few other black cards can be effectively used in the SB.
You have no Wonder to bypass creature stalemates. No Iona/Retainers combo to randomly win games. You're removal is all sorcery based (barring BGH). How do you stop Firespout? Perish/Nature's Ruin? Pithing Needle? Sure, you're deck is more explosive than GW, but what happens when Survival gets countered/removed/needled? Pray to draw a NO? You don't run Fauna Shaman to recover. KotR to have more fat. No Pridemage to handle an early CB/Explosives/Deed. You just pray to discard it with your 3 Thoughtseize or blind call a Therapy. You don't have Sword effects to stop T1 Lackey or opposing Noble Hierarchs. GB's answer to a huge number of problems is simply race them or pray to discard it.
My suggestions for improvement of the current list would be: Swap 2-3 of the PImps for Mongrels. Mongrel is still a great card, and is a decent beater on his own. Run the full set of Thoughtseizes. 6 discard means you'll usually see atleast 1 in your opener, but CT is ALWAYS suboptimal when used by itself, even with the flashback. There is too much hate running around for Survival not to run 7+ disruption spells OR a very solid plan B i.e. Fauna Shaman, KotR, Iona/Retainers. Try 2 Engineered Explosives in the board for the flex spots. Nailing Vial, almost everything in Zoo/Merfolk, Needles on Survival, etc. is very beneficial. You may even try to cut a land in the main for a Tropical Island so you can cast Llawan and EE for 3 without a mana-dork.
Good luck!
Re: Jedi_gofs GB Vengevival
Black gets Entomb though. You gotta streamline and think whats gonna work with the combo. I agree with Mana Drain. Personaly I run UG and I love it. Wonder is great evasion is a big plus and getting intuition is just sick. Often times I will fetch survival with it. U just gotta focus on really getting off the Vengevines quick.
Re: Jedi_gofs GB Vengevival
Hi,
I'm quite happy to see someone else is getting interest for GB Madness. I've been playtesting for some weeks now
Even if I feel UG Madness is intrinsically slightly superior, GB is a very good metagame call.
I totally agree with you about the reasons you gave for GB. I would just add :
1) You no longer worry about the blue count and stop running suboptimal cards (Aquamoeba)
2) Entomb
I used to play 4 but I went down to 2. Entomb acts like Vengevine #5 and 6 in the early game as it works wonder with cheap creatures : you don't have to have an Imp/Mongrel to go for T2 Vengevine. Is allows to be less Survival dependent.
Other uses :
- Tutor for Cabal therapy
- Acts as 1.5 survival of the fittest activation, putting directly the VV in the graveyard
3) Better merfolk match up : you can't be islandwalked
However my version is slightly different to yours. I want to stick with a UG-like version with added explosiveness :
1) Out
- Tarmogoyf
- The NO package goes to the SB
- The creature based removals go to the SB
2) In
- Extra mongrels
- Buried Alive
- Entomb
Moreover, I wanted to have Wonder for the reasons Mana Drain stated. I turned my manabase (10+ fetchlands) to support a 1 Tropical Island splah.
To conclude here are some numbers on which relied my build :
1) GB Madness
- 20 Lands (11 G-Fetch, 4 Bayou, 1 Tropical Island, 4 Forest)
- 0 Wasteland
- 4 Noble Hierarch
- 3 Birds of Paradise
- 4 Rootwalla
- 1 Shield Sphere
- 3 Mongrel
- 4 Putrid Imp
- 1 Wonder
- 2 Entomb
- 3 Buried Alive
- 4 Cabal Therapy
- 3 Thoughtseize
- 4 Vengevine
- 4 Survival of the fittest
Opening hand with T2 Survival or T2 Vengevine (No mulligan) :62%
Opening hand with T2 Survival or Vengevine after 1 mulligan (cumulative) : 79%
Opening hand with T2 Survival or Vengevine after 2 mulligans (cumulative) 85%
2) I made the same calculation for your list (if anyone is interested I can launch the calculations for his list)
Opening hand with T2 Survival or T2 Vengevine (No mulligan) :42%
Opening hand with T2 Survival or Vengevine after 1 mulligan (cumulative) : 60%
Opening hand with T2 Survival or Vengevine after 2 mulligans (cumulative) 68%
3) As a comparison, Caleb UG Madness :
Opening hand with T2 Survival or Vengevine (No mulligan) :36%
Opening hand with T2 Survival or Vengevine after 1 mulligan (cumulative) : 53%
Opening hand with T2 Survival or Vengevine after 2 mulligans (cumulative) : 61%
Re: Jedi_gofs GB Vengevival
Put a Dryad Arbor, you can get it with fetchs and can also use it on survival.
Re: Jedi_gofs GB Vengevival
I just played a 50+ person event at GP Toronto with a GB Madness list and i made top 8. I've been playing this for a few months now.
I didn't go with a slight U splash as i hadn't found i needed it. I've waffled between goyfs main and natural order. I've also tried buried alive but didn't like them all that much.
4x Vengevine
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Birds of Paradise
4x Basking Rootwalla
1x Big Game Hunter
1x Shriekmaw
1x Viridian Zealot
1x Wall of Roots
4x Wild Mongrel
4x Putrid imp
4x Survival of the Fittest
3x Thoughtseize
4x Cabal Therapy
21 Lands
4x Bayou
4x Misty Rainforest
4x Verdant Catacombs
1x Swamp
5x Forest
1x Dryad Arbor
2x Gaea's Cradle
SB That i ran for the GP i think i would make some changes.
2x Krosan Grip
3x Faery Macabre
1x Shriekmaw
1x Big game Hunter
1x Vexing Shusher
3x Jitte
3x Natural Order
1x Progenitus
I played against
R1: Reanimator / painter double combo 2-0
R2: Dredge, he got me game 1 despite some awful dredges, and game 2 i mulled to 4 and he beat me with hardcasted flyers 0-2
R3: Zoo, goyfs and vvines with tutorable removal for his knights were too hard for him to handle, then he flooded in game 2. 2-0
R4: UR Sneak and Tell, game 1 i get there when i have an active survival and he goes for an emerakul and i tutor and madness up a BGHunter. Game 2 he gets me with a progenitus and all i have is a shriekmaw. Game 3 i manage to take with a Kgrip and a BGH
R5: UG Madness, we split the first 2 and in the 3rd Faerie macabre's took it down 2-1
R6: 4c Landstill, we couldn't draw as we had the lowest breakers and it wasn't a clean split, he had some mulligan issues so i took the match. 2-0
Top 8, i was paired up with Canadian thresh, I kept reasonable hands but he had all the answers and disruption and took me down in two quick ones. 0-2
I didn't manage to get any turn 2 or 3 kills this tournament, even though it's possible with putrid imp. I actually had a turn 3 kill in my hand against UG Madness but his stifle wasteland combo kept me off it.