Loam Question

If I dredge a Progenitus with Loam, does dredge fail?

I don't think it does, but a friend of mine does, so I just want to know the answer.

Logistically I'm not quite sure what "failing" would even mean in this scenario, if that were to be the case. Two cards in your yard and a shuffle effect with loam in your yard too? I couldn't really say.

And no, it doesn't fail. Progenitus has just another replacement effect like dredge is a replacement effect to a draw. All you need is 3 cards for the dredge of loam to work, per the rules:

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Originally Posted by rules

702.49a Dredge is a static ability that functions only while the card with dredge is in a player's graveyard. "Dredge N" means "As long as you have at least N cards in your library, if you would draw a card, you may instead put N cards from the top of your library into your graveyard and return this card from your graveyard to your hand."

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Here's something that I'd like somebody to answer if they could. It would seem to me that dredge puts all of those N cards in the graveyard at the same time from this rule, is this the case, or is it put in the graveyard one at a time? Namely I'm wondering if a progenitus is among the first couple cards of a dredge do you wait to see the rest of the cards for the dredge before you shuffle? (If so, then I would assume if you revealed 2 progenitus cards that you would shuffle them back separately?)

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Originally Posted by Valtrix

Here's something that I'd like somebody to answer if they could. It would seem to me that dredge puts all of those N cards in the graveyard at the same time from this rule, is this the case, or is it put in the graveyard one at a time? Namely I'm wondering if a progenitus is among the first couple cards of a dredge do you wait to see the rest of the cards for the dredge before you shuffle? (If so, then I would assume if you revealed 2 progenitus cards that you would shuffle them back separately?)

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Progenitus's ability will trigger the next time a player would gain priority. Since you can't gain priority in the middle of dredging, you would finish dredging and then put the ability onto the stack. So yes, you would see everything you dredge.

Besides, IIRC Progenitus shuffles just himself back in, so there's not really a significant difference in the probabilities of milling any particular card between your two scenarios (dredge then shuffle versus partial dredge, shuffle, dredge). The Eldrazi titans get your entire yard, but even then you could still respond to the ability somehow.

Progenitus is not actually a triggered ability, because he doesn't say "When" he would go to the graveyard. His effect is a replacement effect just like dredge so it should happen any time he would try and end up in the yard, without waiting for somebody to have priority or not.

Yes, progenitus shuffles just himself back. As for statistics though, I realize it probably doesn't matter a lot in the scheme of things, but it would amuse me if progenitus could shuffle back into your library and end up being multiple parts of a single dredge.

EDIT: Actually, all cards are milled at once. So you would see Progenitus and two other cards.

Even though Progenitus never hits the yard, it would still count as one of the cards milled?

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Dredge 2 (If you would draw a card, instead you may put exactly two cards from the top of your library into your graveyard. If you do, return this card from your graveyard to your hand. Otherwise, draw a card.)

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Wouldn't the "if you do" make sure you actually put two cards into the GY? Additionally, say Progen does not count based on the previous, may I continue adding cards until I hit the required amount?

Shuffling back Progenitus is just a replacement effect to dredging it. It will still count towards Dredge X.

Replacement effects don't know/care if they are further modified by other replacement effects - Progenitus's replacement effect just modifies the dredge replacement effect.