U/R/B Bob Control

The holy grail of vintage has always been the draw engine. From Merchant scroll fetching ancestral engine in Meandeck Gifts to the Thirst for Knowledge engine of Tezzeret. The draw engine has been at the top concern for deck builders. When Gush was unrestricted it was immediately assumed that it would supplant any other draw engine available. However the rise of Workshop based strategies has pushed gush out of contention for the time being. Finding a solid draw engine that functions under spheres and still is effective in other matches has led us to...

http://wiki.mtgsalvation.com/images/..._Confidant.jpg

Dark Confidant paired with Snapcaster Mage and Jace the Mindsculptor has enabled a draw engine that can also function as a win condition. To utilize these cards a full suite of moxen are run to maximize the chance of a turn one Confidant and early Jace. This makes the deck a welcome home for Tinker and Time Vault.
Another great thing about this configuration is that you will usually have a way of protecting your Jace from slash panthers and many attacking fish/beats creatures. Snapcaster Mage is extra excellent in this role because he can be flashed in and chump and still give you a brainstorm or ancestral from your graveyard. Below are some recent lists

Jace control, gerrard fabiano 12/08/2012 4th of 65


3 Mental Misstep
1 Flusterstorm
3 Mana Drain
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Black Lotus
2 Lightning Bolt
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Tinker
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Brainstorm
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Dark Confidant
3 Snapcaster Mage
1 Voltaic Key
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
1 Tolarian Academy
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Polluted Delta
1 Misty Rainforest
3 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
2 Island
4 Force of Will
1 Repeal
1 Time Walk
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Time Vault
//sideboard
1 Pithing Needle
1 Flusterstorm
2 Lightning Bolt
1 Mountain
1 Pyroclasm
1 Ravenous Trap
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Ingot Chewer



Here's Marc Langira's winning list from this year's Gen Con Vintage Champs:


1 Flooded Strand
2 Island
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Tolarian Academy
3 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island

1 Blightsteel Colossus
4 Dark Confidant
3 Snapcaster Mage

1 Ancestral Recall
1 Black Lotus
1 Brainstorm
1 Demonic Tutor
2 Flusterstorm
4 Force of Will
1 Hurkyl's Recall
2 Lightning Bolt
1 Mana Crypt
2 Mana Drain
3 Mental Misstep
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sol Ring
1 Time Vault
1 Time Walk
1 Tinker
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Voltaic Key
1 Yawgmoth's Will

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

//Sideboard
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Grafdigger's Cage
4 Ingot Chewer
1 Lightning Bolt
1 Mountain
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Pithing Needle
1 Pyroclasm
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Yixlid Jailer




This is Elvish piper's list which I feel demonstrates the archetype at it's best.


1 Blightsteel Colossus
4 Dark Confidant
3 Snapcaster Mage

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Hurkyl's Recall
2 Lightning Bolt
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Repeal
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Flusterstorm
2 Mana Drain
3 Mental Misstep
4 Force of Will

1 Demonic Tutor
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Time Walk
1 Tinker
1 Yawgmoth's Will

1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sol Ring
1 Time Vault
1 Voltaic Key

1 Cavern of Souls
1 Tolarian Academy
2 Island
3 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn

//Sideboard
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Grafdigger's Cage
4 Ingot Chewer
2 Lightning Bolt
1 Mountain
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Pithing Needle
1 Pyroclasm
2 Yixlid Jailer


You can see the basic skeleton is the same in all three. Both Marc Langira and elvish piper use the same core cards, notable differences are main deck bounce, and Cavern of Souls.

Bob Control is full of broken plays and can easily drop a bomb on turn one and protect it until the game has stabilized in it's favour. However this is not a high variance deck. You will almost always have something dangerous to to on turn one and follow it up on turn two with a tempo play. Bob Control has main deck disruption against the majority of the field.
Besides a rock solid draw engine, a few cards devoted to winning, and lots of control pieces, there's very little room wasted on chaff. even the lightning bolts serve double duty as control cards against opposing creatures and as a way of stopping your dark confidants from getting out of control.
If I was going to a tournament tomorrow this is the deck I would take.

I like the list, it looks pretty strong and maximizes the blue "oops, I win" plays (library, tinker bot, and time vault), which I think has been strangely de-emphasized lately.

I've played bob-jace lists before, although not enough to be really expert with this archetype. My questions from my experience are:

1) without an early bob, I find the draw engine can stall. Is there much way to remedy this? Are there other draw spells worth considering? Gifts, Thirst, Mystic Remora, maybe? or something else?

2) I love ingot chewer against shops, it's the best anti-shop card not named "ancient grudge" for sure. But do you find that boarding in a bunch of 5-cc cards is problematic with bob? Or does bob not stick around long enough in the shops match to really hurt you by flipping chewers?

Speaking of which... is a main-deck anti-artifact card warranted? I found myself wishing for a maindeck rack and ruin in the last local event...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mmcgeach

1) without an early bob, I find the draw engine can stall. Is there much way to remedy this? Are there other draw spells worth considering? Gifts, Thirst, Mystic Remora, maybe? or something else?

2) I love ingot chewer against shops, it's the best anti-shop card not named "ancient grudge" for sure. But do you find that boarding in a bunch of 5-cc cards is problematic with bob? Or does bob not stick around long enough in the shops match to really hurt you by flipping chewers?

Speaking of which... is a main-deck anti-artifact card warranted? I found myself wishing for a maindeck rack and ruin in the last local event...

---

An early Bob is generally best, even game winning, but it is not essential. You can still Merchant Scroll for Ancestral, land a Library and play for a long Control game, or just go for it my Vamp, DT, of Mystical for Tinker or something else with Flusterstorm backup. I think the greatness of this deck type is its flexibility. It has the ability to play the long games, with Library or Bob, or just go broken and win now.

As for Ingot Chewers with Bob, it really isn't that bad. Force already is a 5 cmc and there have been many a times where decks played 4 Froce and 4 Gush with 4 Bobs. It's not that bad, you just need to be a bit more careful on dropping multiple Bobs in this case, if you don't have a top or a Jace.

As for a maindeck anti-artifact card, I don't know about Rack and Ruin. It's good vs Blue (when you probably don't need it as much) and vs. Shops it simply costs too much with a sphere or two out.

I love the list but I keep finding myself drawn to add 2 Baleful Strix and 2 Goblin welders

I Would cut 1 snap, 1 Mystical tutor, 1 Merchant Scroll, and the 4th I'm not sure

I dont know if it's better with the strix and welder but its such fun tech when it gets going.

For the sake of completion, here is Marc Langira's winning list from this year's Gen Con Vintage Champs:


1 Flooded Strand
2 Island
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Tolarian Academy
3 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island

1 Blightsteel Colossus
4 Dark Confidant
3 Snapcaster Mage

1 Ancestral Recall
1 Black Lotus
1 Brainstorm
1 Demonic Tutor
2 Flusterstorm
4 Force of Will
1 Hurkyl's Recall
2 Lightning Bolt
1 Mana Crypt
2 Mana Drain
3 Mental Misstep
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sol Ring
1 Time Vault
1 Time Walk
1 Tinker
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Voltaic Key
1 Yawgmoth's Will

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

//Sideboard
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Grafdigger's Cage
4 Ingot Chewer
1 Lightning Bolt
1 Mountain
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Pithing Needle
1 Pyroclasm
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Yixlid Jailer

I might give it a spin, because I do love drawing extra cards and doing broken stuff.

Intuitively, these lists look extremely soft to Oath, but it seems like no one's found the right Oath build yet.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LowBeyonder

I might give it a spin, because I do love drawing extra cards and doing broken stuff.

Intuitively, these lists look extremely soft to Oath, but it seems like no one's found the right Oath build yet.

---

The deck is pretty soft to Oath, but Oath is generally pretty bad. There's a reason it's one of the only archetypes to never have a showing at the highest tables.

I was thinking why no one has used smelt yet.

It's a 1cc instant, and can be snapcasted back. It does get missteped, but I don't think Shop even bothers. More concerned w/ chalice@1, so I might do a 2/2 split or something.

Ingot Chewer gets around Thorn and doesn't get shut off by Chalice. Against MUD you'll never have enough mana to Snapcaster Mage anything and, when you do, it should probably be something much more significant than Smelt.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Basaka

I was thinking why no one has used smelt yet.

It's a 1cc instant, and can be snapcasted back. It does get missteped, but I don't think Shop even bothers. More concerned w/ chalice@1, so I might do a 2/2 split or something.

---

It would be good, but nearly all MUD players know full well that a Chalice at 1 vs. a Blue deck is really good. Most pilots will drop Chalice at 1 completely blind once they see a U Sea, at any turn past 2-3, when they know that Chalice 0 isn't very effective any more.

Really, for me, if it's not Ancient Grudge (and running G) it's Ingot Chewer. Chewer is just so much better, with the sole exception of when you flip it to Bob. For me, I would much rather have it lose me a bunch of life rather than just get locked out against Chalice.

in addition to what's been said, ingot chewer blows up dredge's bridges. The card you probably want to look at over smelt is nature's claim . It dramatically improves the oath match up and is relevant against shops.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by John Cox

in addition to what's been said, ingot chewer blows up dredge's bridges. The card you probably want to look at over smelt is nature's claim . It dramatically improves the oath match up and is relevant against shops.

---

Needs green though, which strains the manabase. As a long time Bob/Drain player, adding a 4th color isn't really worth it. If you are worried about things like Oath, another option is more pro-active disruption like Thoughtseize to compliment all the permission this deck already plays. I go back and forth on Thoughseize as a 1-of (and have played 2 in the past). I'm not currently running it, but it is definitely a possibility that doesn't suck.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by aahz

Needs green though, which strains the manabase. As a long time Bob/Drain player, adding a 4th color isn't really worth it. If you are worried about things like Oath, another option is more pro-active disruption like Thoughtseize to compliment all the permission this deck already plays. I go back and forth on Thoughseize as a 1-of (and have played 2 in the past). I'm not currently running it, but it is definitely a possibility that doesn't suck.

---

Yeah... thats the big problem. The only artifact hate worth playing besides chewer requires green. I guess you could play viashino heretic too. Thats a whole new topic though.

Played Marc's list in Vintage for Vaults, and ran into oath twice. The first match was lost in game 3 to a turn one Tinker/Blightsteel with Force back up. The second match was won by tutoring for a Grafdigger's Cage and protecting it both games. Oath is not an un-winable matchup, just tough. The only change I made from Marc's Winning list was cutting the REB in the sideboard in favor of another Grafdigger's Cage to help the oath matchup.

I tested UBr Bob/Jace/Snapcaster in the weeks leading up to GenCon. I found that the blue matchup is a little rough, but everything else seems solid. As far as smelt goes, there was never a situation that it was better than Ingot Chewer during my testing, and the instant speed was never relevant.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TheElvishPiper

Played Marc's list in Vintage for Vaults, and ran into oath twice. The first match was lost in game 3 to a turn one Tinker/Blightsteel with Force back up. The second match was won by tutoring for a Grafdigger's Cage and protecting it both games. Oath is not an un-winable matchup, just tough. The only change I made from Marc's Winning list was cutting the REB in the sideboard in favor of another Grafdigger's Cage to help the oath matchup.

I tested UBr Bob/Jace/Snapcaster in the weeks leading up to GenCon. I found that the blue matchup is a little rough, but everything else seems solid. As far as smelt goes, there was never a situation that it was better than Ingot Chewer during my testing, and the instant speed was never relevant.

---

REB/Pyro help to turn around the blue mirrors immensely. Bolt killing Jace also helps too, but less flexible. I'm wondering if some of the g/y hate could be subbed in for local events where Dredge doesn't prowl. I guess it all boils down to the metagame composition.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Koby

REB/Pyro help to turn around the blue mirrors immensely. Bolt killing Jace also helps too, but less flexible. I'm wondering if some of the g/y hate could be subbed in for local events where Dredge doesn't prowl. I guess it all boils down to the metagame composition.

---

I've been burned in the passed skimping on dredge hate in the passed so I wouldn't recommend that, but I would try moving some things into the main deck that would be more advantageous to what I expect.
I would definitely put Spell pierce over flusterstorms for example as it counters spheres/chalices and oaths.

The strength of Big Blue is its ability to correctly pick metagame slots. I agree that skimping on g/y hate is suspect for large wide-open metagames, it's next to useless here at the home front. There's also the proxy/no-proxy metagames that also influence what gets played. Regardless, there's room to tinker with the deck and a number of not necessary slots that can get shuffled around. I think Spellbomb is one of those and it's really nice maindeck, but not at its peak performance without Welders. Hurkyl's Recall too comes to mind if you're not expecting Shops.

The Suicide Jace lists are ultimately a difference animal than the Welder lists, and should have enough game against non-Oath builds from the CA that Bob provides. Oath itself is a pretty funky matchup against Big Blue, so it just comes down to getting the right cards early and like ElvishPiper said, protecting a Grafdigger's Cage.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Koby

The strength of Big Blue is its ability to correctly pick metagame slots. I agree that skimping on g/y hate is suspect for large wide-open metagames, it's next to useless here at the home front. There's also the proxy/no-proxy metagames that also influence what gets played. Regardless, there's room to tinker with the deck and a number of not necessary slots that can get shuffled around. I think Spellbomb is one of those and it's really nice maindeck, but not at its peak performance without Welders. Hurkyl's Recall too comes to mind if you're not expecting Shops.

The Suicide Jace lists are ultimately a difference animal than the Welder lists, and should have enough game against non-Oath builds from the CA that Bob provides. Oath itself is a pretty funky matchup against Big Blue, so it just comes down to getting the right cards early and like ElvishPiper said, protecting a Grafdigger's Cage.

---

Heh, Koby I think you're the reason I don't post that often on here. Every time I'm ready to write something out, I just read what you said and pretty much just think "yup".

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Koby

REB/Pyro help to turn around the blue mirrors immensely. Bolt killing Jace also helps too, but less flexible. I'm wondering if some of the g/y hate could be subbed in for local events where Dredge doesn't prowl. I guess it all boils down to the metagame composition.

---

The singleton REB in the sideboard doesn't vastly improve the blue matchup. I cut it to improve other matchups. The sideboard is great for a largely dredge and shops meta, but it is also a great all around sideboard. In a local meta game, without a lot of dredge, I would probably cut the main deck Nihil Spellbomb for the 3rd Mana Drain. It really depends on what the rest of your meta game looks like to say how the sideboard would look.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TheElvishPiper

I would probably cut the main deck Nihil Spellbomb for the 3rd Mana Drain. It really depends on what the rest of your meta game looks like to say how the sideboard would look.

---

This is what I'm running at the moment. Partly because the lack of Dredge, but also just because I have these 3 Mana Drains, and I wanted to run them all. Nihil main is pretty great almost all the time though.