[Developmental] Enchantress with Rest In Peace / Helm
Primary Game Plan
This is a combo based enchantress deck designed to win the game by assembling the combo of Helm of Obedience + Rest in Peace. The combo is simple once amassed by simply paying :1: into the Helm exiles your opponents deck. Their next draw phase if they can not draw a card you win the game.
Primary Game Plan Considerations
If Rest in Peace is on the battle field there aren't too many cards in Magic that can stop the combo is Helm of Obedience resolves.
Most cards that will stop the combo are permanents (ex. Phyrexian Revoker, Pithing Needle, Null Rod, Stoney Silence) and therefore the deck has to have a stong plan against permanents. In enchantress there is no better card than Oblivion Ring.
The primary non-permanent spell we have to look out for is Krosan Grip. A well timed Grip can ruin our plans. All other articaft removal is too slow to stop the combo. Stifle stalls, but does not stop it. The best way for enchantress to beat grip is to have more wins (or win substitutes) to overrun their Grip count.
Proposed Prison / Combo Enchantress List (with RiP/Helm) Revised 9-29-2012:
Creatures (5)
4 Argothian Enchantress
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
Artifacts (1)
1 Helm of Obedience
Sorceries (1)
1 Green Sun's Zenith
Enchantments (34)
The Draw:
4 Enchantress's Presence
The Acceleration:
3 Wild Growth
4 Utopia Sprawl
The Stall:
3 Solitary Confinement
4 Energy Field
3 Rest In Peace
4 Elephant Grass
2 Wheel of Sun and Moon
Disruption and Consistency:
3 Mirri's Guile
1 Oblivion Ring
2 Sterling Grove
Alternative Win:
1 Sigil of the Empty Throne
Mana (19)
2 Karakas
2 Serra's Sanctum
2 Windswept Heath
1 Savannah
7 Forest
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Island
Sideboard (underdeveloped):
4 Carpet of Flowers
4 Leyline of Sanctity
Decks Origin (Testing Basis)
Having had play UG enchantress for a bit of time now I feel there are some things we can use for a basis in the [Developmental] Spreading Illusions - An Enchantress Variant thread.
This concept was also discussed here in the traditional enchantress thread starting on about page 150.
Here is the latest deck list I had been running on 8-12-2012:
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Freggle
Deck Breakdown (Simple Version)
Enchantress Engine
Once an enchantress effect is landed on the battlefield the deck draws (1) card per effect on the field each time an enchantment is cast (even is countered.) This creates a considerable amount of card advantage (CA) over your opponent allowing the pilot to flood the board with enchantments or punch through a permission wall faster than other decks can.
The deck is considered to have 9 enchantress effects:
4 Argothian Enchantress
4 Enchantress's Presence
1 Green Sun's Zenith
The Green Sun's is included for three reasons:
- The statistics of the control Match up (MU)
- The shuffle effect (for Mirri's Guile)
- The additional enchantress effect
Card Choice Breakdown
The Wins: (In order of preference)
Helm of Obedience : [Targeted] Easily the most potent win as when combined with Rest in Peace it can for :1: exile your entire opponents graveyard and win virtually on-the-spot. It should be noted that this will even work through reshuffle effects that avoid the graveyard
(such as Progenitus) because of the infinite loop clause in the MTG rules.
Sigil of the Empty Throne : [Non-Targeted] There is nothing more graceful than making a 4/4 flier for each enchantment you cast regardless of resolution. If resolved and protected with 34 enchantments floating in this deck this win condition (wincon) becomes absurd very quickly.
Emrakul, the Aeons Torn : [When all else fails] Can't Oblivion Ring that thing that is preventing you from winning? Make them sacrifice it. Emrakul also goes infinite with Karakas to win through the most disgusting of board states.
Wheel of Sun and Moon : [When absolutely everything else fails] Draw them out.
The Remainder:
... remainder forthcoming
Varience From Previous Lists
This new Helm list now gives us access to a 5 mana win now vs. a 15 mana win kinda now. Most of the card choices have been discussed at length in the other threads. I will detail them here in the future. the basis for this deck has been thoroughly tested, and I have exprienced success with it. The main change is the removal of Emrakul, and Emrakul enablers in lieu of the faster Helm and more stall. The rise in the number of Oblivion Rings is to combat any player shroud effects.
Cards for consideration:
Link RTR - Detention Sphere
Web of Inertia
Greater Auramancy
A Note to the Moderators
I see that there is another combo thread already discussing the concept of Rest In Peace and Helm of Obedience. Namely this thread. However, I feel this deck is different because it uses the enchantress shell to further it's game plan. If the moderators feel that there is not enough difference please delete this thread.
Re: [Developmental] Enchantress with Rest In Peace / Helm
Hello, im having fun with this deck by two months with the GWr version and now im switching into this combo one.
And I have immediately a question: dont you think, with that list, you will need more ways for tutoring the combo's pieces?
Sorry for my english:laugh:
Re: [Developmental] Enchantress with Rest In Peace / Helm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
renna
Hello, im having fun with this deck by two months with the GWr version and now im switching into this combo one.
And I have immediately a question: dont you think, with that list, you will need more ways for tutoring the combo's pieces?
Sorry for my english:laugh:
This is a debatable question. I am of the camp that tutors are not needed. I prefer to use a statistical approach of Mirri's Guile + Shuffle Effects like Windswept Heath or Green Sun's Zenith to filter the deck to find what I need (much like Brainstorm in :u: decks.) This also gives the deck more overall synergy / resiliency & efficiency of card slot.
The draw engine will also naturally find you a lot of stuff.
The current list does have tutors in Sterling Grove if needed in a pinch, It should be noted however that these cards were added for their shroud effect more than the tutor ability.
When I have more time I will go into more detail on this topic. ...but again I have played both and my short answer is no tutors are not needed.
Re: [Developmental] Enchantress with Rest In Peace / Helm
The biggest problem with the list I see is that you're basically dead as soon as an opponent gets three hardcounters online (and holds them back). Solitary Confinement isn't exactly the greatest wincon given how many more cards than the opponent this deck will usually draw before being fully protected (meaning you'll likely run out of library cards first because you need to keep drawing to discard for Confinement).
The UG variant gets around that by abusing Zenith and Witness (they need to stop both Words, all four Zeniths and both Witness - seems good enough). I think this deck needs a similar backup plan to fight countermagic, though graveyard recursion obviously isn't the greatest answer given the deck's focus on RIP. A few City of Solitude in the MD might do the trick, though, or just having access to a few Words of Wind similar to the UG version.
Re: [Developmental] Enchantress with Rest In Peace / Helm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mon,Goblin Chief
The biggest problem with the list I see is that you're basically dead as soon as an opponent gets three hardcounters online (and holds them back). Solitary Confinement isn't exactly the greatest wincon given how many more cards than the opponent this deck will usually draw before being fully protected (meaning you'll likely run out of library cards first because you need to keep drawing to discard for Confinement).
The UG variant gets around that by abusing Zenith and Witness (they need to stop both Words, all four Zeniths and both Witness - seems good enough). I think this deck needs a similar backup plan to fight countermagic, though graveyard recursion obviously isn't the greatest answer given the deck's focus on RIP. A few City of Solitude in the MD might do the trick, though, or just having access to a few Words of Wind similar to the UG version.
Even though I feel that having 3 hard counters online in todays legacy is a relatively tall order you are absolutely correct and the deck would be much better if it could be more agressive with permission but that is the plight of all enchantress decks.
City of Solitude and Words of Wind MAY do the trick but you would be lessening the overall synergy to find room for them.
Choke is also widely regarded as superior to city in the enchantress community as an answer to control.
I personally feel that the best way to correct this issue woild be to reduce the Rest in Peace count down to 3 and add in 1 Wheel of Sun and Moon and possibly another for the 4th Wild Growth.
This makes Energy Field stronger and improves the control / discard MUs since the draw out is far less likely. That is my inital thought but there might be something better than that.
Oh, and Solitary Confinement is in the deck primarily to stop Jace wins but is also decet against combo and burn.
Re: [Developmental] Enchantress with Rest In Peace / Helm
Detention Sphere seems impressive as additional and different O. Ring. It's the right colors as well.
Dryad Arbor + GSZ = mana accel turn one for a turn 2 Echantress Presence against certain decks (not Zoo and the like obv. but even Goblins has not that much straight removal).
Re: [Developmental] Enchantress with Rest In Peace / Helm
I think the primary goal of the deck is not to win with the RIP/Helm combo but to get the enchantress engine online and to lock the opponent out with RIP/Field. Then you can win obviously very easy with Helm but any other enchantress wincon would also do it.
The interesting thing is that this deck can win without the enchantress engine and can't loose to many decks with the RIP/Field combo online. The advantage is that you do not really need cards like elephant grass and also confinement is not necessary. Therefore I would max out on Sterling Grove to protect and find everything except for helm.
I can imagine that this is stronger than existing variants because if the current deck does not have an enchantress effect the deck can just try to survie until they have one. The win and lock depends on this engine, so if a deck can discard/counter/edict some enchantress cards you might not be able to find more in time. Now with this version if enchantress cards are answered you can just RIP/Field or RIP/Helm and completely lock or win.
Also even if less crucial Enchantress is still the nuts so 1 GSZ seems lonely. Engineere Explosives and Deed will ruin your day so I guess some needles won't hurt the SB.
Re: [Developmental] Enchantress with Rest In Peace / Helm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
catmint
I think the primary goal of the deck is not to win with the RIP/Helm combo but to get the enchantress engine online and to lock the opponent out with RIP/Field. Then you can win obviously very easy with Helm but any other enchantress wincon would also do it.
The interesting thing is that this deck can win without the enchantress engine and can't loose to many decks with the RIP/Field combo online. The advantage is that you do not really need cards like elephant grass and also confinement is not necessary. Therefore I would max out on Sterling Grove to protect and find everything except for helm.
I can imagine that this is stronger than existing variants because if the current deck does not have an enchantress effect the deck can just try to survie until they have one. The win and lock depends on this engine, so if a deck can discard/counter/edict some enchantress cards you might not be able to find more in time. Now with this version if enchantress cards are answered you can just RIP/Field or RIP/Helm and completely lock or win.
Also even if less crucial Enchantress is still the nuts so 1 GSZ seems lonely. Engineere Explosives and Deed will ruin your day so I guess some needles won't hurt the SB.
Your absolutely right about the decks primary goal. I will adjust this in the OP hopefully tomorrow night. In playing a version very close to this for quite some time now I will strongly caution you on the removal of Elephant Grass, and Solitary Confinement. Both of these cards fulfill two totally different roles for the deck.
Elephant Grass gives us game against burn / zoo / sleigh style decks when an Energy Field can not be found. Without it we are too slow. Also to cut an enchantment with a casting cost of :g: (the wheelhouse of enchantress) you should have a very good reason, but I'm open to suggestions and improvements.
Solitary Confinement on the other hand locks up the long games and most peoples alt wins a.k.a. Jace. Solitary Confinement is also the best we got G1 against storm. (granted it's not too hot in that role)
Re: [Developmental] Enchantress with Rest In Peace / Helm
What does this have on all the decks that tried to do the same thing with Leyline? Seems like it introduces extra vulnerabilities.
Also why wouldn't this combo have worked with wheel of sun and moon?
Perhaps I'm missing something but why is seas claim preferable to spreading seas? Is the 1 mana that relevant vs. an extra card?
Is the general reason for the switch that RIP simply works better than Wheel and facilitates this as a reliable win-con?
Re: [Developmental] Enchantress with Rest In Peace / Helm
Any reason for not running Brainstorm? The tempo loss of a single blue mana seems insignicant compared to the upsides.
I also second the notion of Detention Sphere as a better Oblivion Ring in most cases, and I would definitely suggest some sort of split between the two at the very least.
Lastly, I understand the fact that RIP combos with Helm for an instant I-Win, but is it even necessary? With no way to tutor up the Helm, the Helm being dead on its own, and it not having any syngery with the rest of the deck... I'm not even sure it's worth it. Between Solitary Confinement and RIP/Energy Field, with Sterling Grove to protect them... it seems like you have plenty of ways to lock the opponent out and then win through Sigil of the Empty Throne instead. Just a thought, anyway.
My 2 cents.
Re: [Developmental] Enchantress with Rest In Peace / Helm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
kwis
What does this have on all the decks that tried to do the same thing with Leyline?
This deck has more synergy, and multiple avenues to win. All the :ub: versions with Leyline of the Void were also defensive or prison decks. This is both a prison / defensive deck with multiple I win combos, and massive amounts of draw.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
kwis
Seems like it introduces extra vulnerabilities.
I honestly do not know what you are referring to. ...less counter magic?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
kwis
Also why wouldn't this combo have worked with wheel of sun and moon?
Wheel of Sun and Moon would never draw a player out since the card would be placed on the bottom of their library.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
kwis
Perhaps I'm missing something but why is seas claim preferable to spreading seas? Is the 1 mana that relevant vs. an extra card?
That is a carry over from when I was playing with a rainbow-pain land base, and at that time yes. It is also best when designing a enchantress decks to keep the curve as low as possible. In doing so the deck becomes very explosive as it can draw / cast more per turn.
...in the end though the singleton Sea's Claim in that list was a bad call.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
kwis
Is the general reason for the switch that RIP simply works better than Wheel and facilitates this as a reliable win-con?
Correct it's an aggressive / disruptive lock piece.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Hanni
Any reason for not running Brainstorm? The tempo loss of a single blue mana seems insignicant compared to the upsides.
I tested Brainstorm in previous versions, and it hinges on a lot of things. Brianstorm is good when you do not have an enchantress effect in play. When you do it's not that great as you tend to draw most of the card you put back anyhow, so you would rather have the mana, and the slot as an enchantment.
I also tried Ponder, but it too wasn't packing the punch that Mirri's Guile does. Mirri's Guile does A LOT. First of it is a :g: enchantment the most explosive type in an enchantress deck, and it keeps giving every turn. Remember this is a prison deck so passing turns isn't as crucial as it is to other decks.
Mirri's Guile also triggers at the beginning of upkeep. This is very important because then you can stack ALL of your upkeep triggers as favorably as you want. (this is why enchantress players do not play Sylvan Library as it trigger in the draw phase) This means you can look at your top three before you decide if you want to discard a card to Solitary Confinement or pay your cumulative upkeep for Elephant Grass or if your running Defense of the Heart you can stack you defense last let it resolve first shuffle and then stack your top 3 any way you choose.
Guile also adds more stability to Solitary Confinement in that it can dig/stack that enchantment to keep the draws flowing.
So in the end Mirri's Guile has defiantly earned a spot in my enchantress lists. As it does all of those not-so-obvious things in addition to acting like a slow Ponder. I also feel (perhaps wrongly) that Brainstorm competes for the same slot and guile trumps it. Thus the omission. The most obvious place to me where Brainstorm outshines Mirri's Guile in this deck is when you are up against discard and you can storm away your goodies, but I found I'm usually tapped out anyhow since we tend to dump our cards in a frenzy, and it wasn't natural to leave the mana up for such an occurrence, and the enchantress draws tends to combat discard fairly well anyhow.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Hanni
I also second the notion of Detention Sphere as a better Oblivion Ring in most cases, and I would definitely suggest some sort of split between the two at the very least.
this is very true. I just do not like the casting cost. I am a very conservative designer when it comes to mana bases. I like my basics. This isn't a cost thing it's an I hate Stifle, Bloodmoon, Wasteland thing so I go out of my way to minimize the impact of those cards against me. In all actuality this is a GWu or mayber even closer to Gwu deck this is a choice to make the most stable mana base possible. (mostly to avoid wasteland hitting an enchanted land or causing me to sac an Energy Field)
So a casting cost of :w::u::1: is a little daunting. That is the only reason I have shied away from it until now. Do you have any good ideas for the mana base to make casting a Detention Sphere easier?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Hanni
Lastly, I understand the fact that RIP combos with Helm for an instant I-Win, but is it even necessary? With no way to tutor up the Helm, the Helm being dead on its own, and it not having any syngery with the rest of the deck... I'm not even sure it's worth it. Between Solitary Confinement and RIP/Energy Field, with Sterling Grove to protect them... it seems like you have plenty of ways to lock the opponent out and then win through Sigil of the Empty Throne instead. Just a thought, anyway.
My 2 cents.
This is a very valid question, and one I have been pondering quite a bit lately. ...the answer is I'm not sure so I'm going to try it.
The problem if Sigil is again it's casting cost. Yeah it's fine when you are rolling and you have Serra's Sanctum out there already, but there are many times it sat in my hand not being able to be cast. It also is a high enough cost to not gain a ton of value out of it on the turn it's cast so you have to protect it otherwise it may just be a dud. It's good, and will win most of the time, but to me it doesn't feel perfect.
I really do like Defense of the Heart -> Emrakul. I like it because all of the cards work together. People know that if they are going to win there might just be 1 turn where they can punch through my defenses and kill. So typically people will place all their creatures on the battlefield to be poised for that moment. ...well defense takes advantage of that. Defense of the Heart also warrant the inclusion of Forbidden Orchard an excellent color fixer in this deck. I could go on-and-on about this win like it's one mana less AND GREEN, but it's hard to compare to something you haven't tried. So I will try Helm for a bit and come to a better conclusion.
There are other wins I'm considering that I will detail when I have the time.
Thank you for your two cents.
It looks like my OP update will have to wait another day. My apologies.
Re: [Developmental] Enchantress with Rest In Peace / Helm
I revised the list based off of testing in the OP. I have moved the original list below for records sake.
Creatures (4)
4 Argothian Enchantress
Artifacts (2)
2 Helm of Obedience
Sorceries (1)
1 Green Sun's Zenith
Enchantments (34)
The Draw:
4 Enchantress's Presence
The Acceleration:
4 Wild Growth
4 Utopia Sprawl
The Stall:
2 Solitary Confinement
4 Energy Field
4 Rest In Peace
4 Elephant Grass
Disruption and Consistency:
2 Mirri's Guile
3 Oblivion Ring
2 Sterling Grove
Alternative Win:
1 Sigil of the Empty Throne
Mana (19)
2 Karakas
2 Serra's Sanctum
1 Plains
4 Windswept Heath
1 Tropical Island
7 Forest
2 Savannah
Sideboard (underdeveloped):
4 Carpet of Flowers
4 Leyline of Sanctity
I will further develop the OP later tonight
Re: [Developmental] Enchantress with Rest In Peace / Helm
Above looks sweet man, definitely going to test it. Can you comment on the necessity of 2 MD Karakas? Is this purely a meta call against SNT? What else is it useful against? I'm just a bit worried 19 lands, 2 of which can be dead in a lot of match ups, won't be enough for consistency. I respect you've tested a lot, thus my asking.
Edit: I was looking at he list without Emmy. Is it still worth running Krak just to bounce your own?
Re: [Developmental] Enchantress with Rest In Peace / Helm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TheSleeper
Above looks sweet man, definitely going to test it. Can you comment on the necessity of 2 MD Karakas? Is this purely a meta call against SNT? What else is it useful against? I'm just a bit worried 19 lands, 2 of which can be dead in a lot of match ups, won't be enough for consistency. I respect you've tested a lot, thus my asking.
The two Maindeck Karakas are mainly in to handle the following:
-Gaddock Teeg - This cards can shut off a LOT of our wins including helm. Bounce it for giggles.
-Thalia, Guardian of Thraben - This lady sucks. ..not with Karakas out... now they have to pay two to keep dropping it.
-Emrakul, the Aeons Torn (theirs)- If this swings we loose. Bounce it unless they have Omniscience ...then you need Oblivion Ring.
-Karakas - Nothing beats Karakas like Karakas. If your Karakas is on the battle field first your opponent cant even tap theirs for mana.
-Emrakul, the Aeons Torn (ours) - It sounds absurd, but a fair handfull of games come down to hard casting Emrakul. ...when your opponent has soo much hate there is nothing like cleaning up infinite permanents bouncing our own Emrakul to win evantually win off of sacrifices and infinite turns.
-Iona, Shield of Emeria (less-and-less) - If Iona comes down on green we're sunk ...unless we have a Karakas.
-white mana - Why run a plains when you can have a Karakas?
Re: [Developmental] Enchantress with Rest In Peace / Helm
Any thought to sphere of safety? As long you get a sanctum down, it shouldn't be that hard to land it (barring counterspells).
Re: [Developmental] Enchantress with Rest In Peace / Helm
Gaddock Teeg is a problem ? Don't worry ! The solution is here : Equipoise.
You manage:
- Creatures : Gaddock Teeg, Thalia, destroy all tokens (Empty the warren, Batterskull, ...), ...
- Artifacts : Canonist, Chalice of the void, ...
[optional] : untapped islands : to avoid a spell pierce, ...
Re: [Developmental] Enchantress with Rest In Peace / Helm
Re: [Developmental] Enchantress with Rest In Peace / Helm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dihensoeur
Why at each time I reply to a thread, nobody reply after :cry: ? It's a curse !
Dihensoeur, Sorry I'm extreamyl busy as of late. I'm still into this deck, but I don't have the time to give to it that it needs. Next week things should free up a bit. I will be able to discuss it then.
I like your list on initial glance, but again not enought time to digest it right now.
Re: [Developmental] Enchantress with Rest In Peace / Helm
I updated my list :
- 1 Sigil of the empty throne
- 1 plains
+ 1 City of solitude
+ 1 Tundra
Side :
- 1 Stony Silence
+ 1 Equipoise
Tundra is to be able to play Energy Field in emergency case or versus Chalice of the void with 1 counter.
I try without Sigil because I found it too slow and too expensive (5 manas + all manas from others enchantments).
I add a City MD to secure the kill with Helm and fight blue decks.
I add a second Equipoise because it's very a strong card and it's an extra safety to kill with Helm (=> phase out pithing needle...).
I read the UW Sanctuary thread too.
Quote:
Wheel of Sun and Moon is a win condition that happens to stabilize Energy Field well, and can be dropped under Teeg. (you don't draw out your opponent does.)
Rest in peace work too with Energy Field and I think that we can/should win without waiting for draw out from opponent. You should play Words of war to avoid draw out and kill planeswalker/Teeg/opponent (^_^) instead of Wheel.
Re: [Developmental] Enchantress with Rest In Peace / Helm
