4-Color Deathrite Shaman

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In the words of Ricky Sidher, from SCG Las Vegas, Deathrite Shaman is "like a one-mana planeswalker in Legacy."

This deck was put on the map after it won a 70 player tournament in Berlin on 08DEC12:
Deathrite by Jasper Grimmer

Lands (19)
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra

Creatures (15)
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Tarmogoyf
4 Geist of Saint Traft

Spells (26)
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
4 Brainstorm
1 Sylvan Library
2 Vapor Snag
1 Swords to Plowshares
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
4 Ponder

Sideboard (15)
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Umezawa’s Jitte
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 Flusterstorm
1 Spell Pierce
1 Envelop
2 Thoughtseize
3 Lingering Souls

https://www.magiccardmarket.eu/blog/coverage/

Here is a version of Team Portugal:

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Originally Posted by Neffy

Regarding the 4 color I once played and tested my own version of team portugal with white included - with new cards added it would look like this:

4 Flooded Strand
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
4 Brainstorm
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Life from the Loam
4 Ponder
1 Rushing River
2 Swords to Plowshares
3 Thoughtseize
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Daze
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Sylvan Library
3 Tarmogoyf
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull

- Not counter heavy, but with a lot of nice toolboxes. I recall using snapcaster, unearth which was quite fun. Also I am getting into the Runechanter's Pike. Equip that to delver and you have a beast! What are you people's thoughts on # of equipment vs. # of SFM? I usually go with 1 less equipment than I have SFMs.
For even more toolbox you could include Ooze but I dont like them together with SHaman for obvious reasons..
The loam is there to help the mana base. I dont think it is that much of a problem, especially with 8 cantrips and Shamans, but it is always nice to have that card. Also feeds the Goyf/Shaman if need be.
EDIT: Rushing Rivers + loam is just sex!

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Here are recent tournament report and analysis from Mark Sun regarding Jasper's list:

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Originally Posted by Mark Sun

Vapor Snag: I used Water_Wizard's analysis on Vapor Snag to justify it, but I don't feel like it's where the deck wants to be. I found myself leaning more on discard + the full set of STP's postboard against the decks where Vapor Snag is reasonable to leave in. I pretty much boarded it out every time. While true that you want blue cards to pitch to Force of Will, in most of the decks where you want to be using Vapor Snag, you probably don't want Force of Will (with the exception of decks that cheap a fatty into play).

Geist: Same as it was last Standard season in UW Delver. Super weak against a horde of creatures, which makes it hard to push through damage. That said, casting him on turn 2 (which I did a couple of times) was pretty insane. This card might need more time to figure out and understand his role in the deck.

Lingering Souls: Bonkers. I wanted it against BUG. I wanted it against Bant. I brought it in for a pile of matchups. In conjunction with Jitte in the sideboard, that 4-card package seemed very reasonable, giving you a constant stream of guys to take advantage of equipment.

Delver: Most of you know how I feel about this card. Still not a fan with more Decays running around, but fits into the shell of the deck.

This is what I'll be using next week:

Lands (19)
10 Blue Fetches
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea

Creatures (15)
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Tarmogoyf
4 Geist of Saint Traft

Spells (26)
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
1 Sylvan Library
2 Swords to Plowshares
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
4 Ponder

Sideboard (15)
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Umezawa’s Jitte
3 Lingering Souls
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Swords to Plowshares
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Flusterstorm
1 Spell Pierce
1 Envelop
3 Flex Slots

I cut the two Vapor Snags to round out the playset of Daze and to add the 2nd Swords to Plowshares in the maindeck. For the sideboard, I never really found myself boarding in the extra Thoughtseize. They are probably fine against Control but you also want to put pressure on it you can. So -2 Thoughtseize, -1 Swords to Plowshares, +3 Flex Slots. They might become Engineered Plagues, or I was also thinking about cutting the Cavern and the EE for 4 Stoneforge Mystic and a Batterskull. Dunno, tons of time to tweak and test. Has anyone else been playing this deck?

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DECK ANALYSIS

Mana Base
This deck runs a fetch-heavy, all non-basic, blue-based mana base. The typical version runs 19 lands comprised of 10 fetches and 3 Underground Seas, 3 Tropical Islands, and 3 Tundras.
Fetchlands are essential for activating Deathrite's first ability and for color fixing.
Some versions of this deck include other lands, such as Wasteland, Karakas, Savannah, Scrubland, and Bayou. Wasteland and Karakas are mainly run by the builds utilizing Knight of the Reliquary as a win condition. Savannah, Scrubland, and Bayou provide protection from Wasteland because you can create a 'triangle' and prevent yourself from being denied any color. For example, Underground Sea, Tropical Island, and Bayou, even in the face of a Wasteland, will still allow you to cast Abrupt Decay.

The 'Base'
The 'base' of this deck consists of the following:
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Tarmogoyf
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3-4 Daze
4 Force of Will
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
3 Abrupt Decay
1-3 Swords to Plowshares
0-2 Vapor Snag
1 Sylvan Library

As this is a newer deck, versions are still being tweaked to include the 'optimal' composition. 19 lands plus 35-37 'base' cards grant room for 4-6 flex slots. First, let's discuss the 'base' creature slots and then let's discuss the 'flex slots,' including how they've been used by different players.

CREATURES

Deathrite Shaman
Deathrite Shaman is a mana accelerator, game extender, game ender, Goblin Lackey blocker, and graveyard disrupter all rolled into one.

A few quick notes about the 'rules' of Deathrite:
"Because the first ability requires a target, it is not a mana ability. It uses the stack and can be responded to.
If the target of any of Deathrite Shaman’s three abilities is an illegal target when that ability tries to resolve, it will be countered and none of its effects will happen. You won’t add mana to your mana pool, no opponent will lose life, or you won’t gain life, as appropriate."

So, Deathrite's first ability can be responded to and stopped with Pithing Needle. All of Deathrite's abilities can be 'stopped' by graveyard extraction effects such as opposing Deathrites, Scavenging Oozes, Surgical Extractions, and Extirpates.

Delver of Secrets
Borrowed, perhaps from the BUG Tempo archtype, this card is a Lightning Bolt on a stick!
Anyone who has played with, or against, Delver of Secrets knows its ability to close out games through quickly providing evasive pressure.
The one downside of Delver is that it does require approximately 25+ instants and/or sorceries in your deck to provide the suitable chances of a blind flip.

Tarmogoyf
A long-time Legacy staple, Tarmogoyf provides blocking and offense for a very reasonable mana cost.
The negative interaction between Deathrite and Tarmogoyf is not as bad as you would think. Deathrite can target your opponent's graveyard and between both graveyards, you are usually able to keep Tarmogoyf big and healthy. However, the combination of Deathrite and Tarmogoyf does leave this deck more susceptible to graveyard hate, like Rest in Peace.

The remaining 'flex' slots are usually dedicated to creatures, equipment, and/or planeswalker. Let's start with creature options:

Geist of Saint Traft
This was Japer Grimmer's creature of choice. Geist can quickly deal damage, is a good fit with the deck's mana base, and pitches to Force of Will. Hexproof also allows Geist to evade any form of targeted removal.
Geist shines in the mirror/tempo match ups. Given this deck's ability to provide mana acceleration, quickly land threats, and provide disruption, a turn 2 or 3 Geist can quickly close out the game.
Geist gains significant value on the play, so much so that I usually board some number out when I am on the draw (and I bring Force of Will back in.) Geist shines when you are able to keep your opponent off-balance. Landing an early Geist and then using discard, removal, and counterspells to answer your opponent's 'solutions' will quickly win you the game. However, when you are back-peddling and looking for answers to your opponent's threats, Geist is the last card that you want to see (it becomes an over-priced chump blocker.)
Geist is lacking in the aggro, combo, and certain control match-ups. Against aggro, Geist is usually boarded out, as decks like Goblins have many blockers. Versus quick combo, Geist is too slow and will be boarded out for extra disruption, like counterspells and discard. Vs. Control, Geist can be good, as it evades targeted discard, but it is susceptible to cards like Terminus, Snapcaster Mage, Entreat the Angels, Moat, and Maze of Ith.

Stoneforge Mystic
In my opinion, this may be the most powerful use of the flex slot. Running 3 Stoneforges provides a threat that is a two-drop and allows the deck to run main deck Batterskull and Jitte. Running main deck Jitte frees up a sideboard slot, perhaps for a card like Sword of Feast and Famine. Equipment, such as Jitte, pair well with the deck's existing creatures and also complement Lingering Souls tokens (from the sideboard) very well. Batterskull provides a unique threat and life gain, improving the aggro and burn match-ups and offering a re-castable threat.

Knight of the Reliquary
Despite the obvious dis-synergy with Deathrite Shaman and the continued reliance upon the graveyard, Knight of the Reliquary grants access to silver-bullet lands and Wasteland. Running KotR requires a more robust mana base (20-22 lands), including more Plains and Forests, but also grants access to Wasteland, Karakas, and increased mana-fixing. Decks that run KotR are also better able to support main-deck planeswalkers, due to their higher land counts.

Planeswalkers
Jace, the Mind Sculptor and Liliana of the Veil are the two major contenders, with Jace obviously being the strongest choice. Jace has stronger abilities and this deck's mana base supports Jace's UU casting cost much beter than Liliana's BB casting cost. In versions running 19 lands, Jace is a sideboard card, to be brought in against any deck of equal or slower speed. In versions that run 20+ lands, Jace is main-deck material, however, this begins to move away from the Tempo archtype and closer to mid-range or control.
Liliana is a possibility out of the sideboard, but this deck doesn't really want to run BB. If the deck choses to run Life from the Loam (and possibly Wasteland), I could see Liliana being a lock-piece in certain match-ups.

SPELLS

Brainstorm
Don't need to say too much here. Very good card. The fetchlands provide many shuffle effects. You get even more shuffle effects if you run Stoneforge Mystics. Brainstorm helps you find answers, set up Delver flips, and shuffle away unneeded cards. Enough said.

Ponder
Another great card for finding needed lands, disruption, and/or setting up Delver flips. Because this is a tempo deck, I would not run less than 4.

Force of Will
For the combo match-ups or to protect your threats. This card is included to give you a fighting chance vs. combo game 1. It usually comes out vs. 'fair' decks, although it's not uncommon to leave a couple in, especially on the draw. Jasper's list runs 25 blue cards, which is more than enough to support Force of Will.

Daze
Jasper's list runs 3, Mark has bumped it up to 4 (above). In the early game, especially on the play, Daze is awesome. It protects our early threats while providing enough disruption to close out the game. However, in the later game, Daze can be lacking, especially because this deck lacks Wasteland, Stifle, Hymn to Tourach and other such effects that would keep our opponent's tight on mana and thus, keep Daze effective. However, this deck does need another counterspell, in addition to Force of Will. Spell Pierce is a possible alternative, although Spell Pierce does not help you protect a first turn Deathrite or Delver. Because all of our lands are Islands (besides the Cavern of Souls in the board), Daze fits well with this deck's mana base.

Vapor Snag
At first glance, a lot of people, including myself, were like 'WTF?' However, after some testing, Vapor Snag has proven it's worth. Mark Sun disagrees, and has replaced his Vapor Snags with Swords to Plowshares, opening up a slot in the sideboard (you can read Mark's comments above.) In my testing with this deck, I've found that the first land I fectch is Underground Sea. It enables me to cast Deathrite and it opens up early-game discard. Second, I grab Tropical Islands to empower my Tarmogoyfs, Abrupt Decays, and Sylvan Libraries. Finally, I fetch Tundras for STP and my win con, Geist of St. Traft. Therefore, W is the last color that is available. However, all of the lands produce U and thus, enable Vapor Snag. Vapor Snag also ups the deck's blue count to enable Force of Will.
I plan to do some testing with the Stoneforge Mystic version. In that version, STP becomes more powerful, as Tundra will usually be your 2nd fetched land, in order to enable Stoneforge. So, perhaps Vapor Snag gets the cut in the SFM version.

Swords to Plowshares
The best removal in the format. This, along with Lingering Souls from the sideboard, are the primary reasons for running white (as opposed to splashing red and gaining Lighting Bolts and Pyroblasts / Red Elemental Blasts from the sideboard.)

Abrupt Decay
Very strong removal. This card and Deathrite Shaman are what makes this deck viable. Abrupt Decay is awesome in that it can target any permanent with cc<=3 and that is cannot be countered. A savvy opponent may try to keep you off of green and/or black, which can become an issue if Deathrite is not in play.

Inquisition of Kozilek
Targeted discard. In addition to Deathrite, Abrupt Decay, and Lingering Souls' flashback ability, targeted discard is a massive advantage from black. This deck's ability to use both discard and counter-magic to attack opponent's hands gives the deck a better game 1 match up against combo. In subsequent games, this deck can board into more discard and counterspells.

Thoughtseize
My favorite discard spell in the deck. In other decks, I've leaned toward Inquisition of Kozilek due to Thoughtseize's -2 life. However, Deathrite's ability negates the loss of life rather well. I like running the full 4 Thoughtseizes (2 main, 2 board), but Mark has decided against them (you can read about that above.) I think either decision is correct based upon your meta. In a meta with more combo, the full playset of Thoughtseize feels very powerful. In a meta with more aggro, extra removal is a benefit.

Sylvan Library
I cannot emphasize how good this card is. I like to see it every match up. I've considered running 2 (1 main, 1 board) and probably will if Abrupt Decay becomes more prevalent. Sylvan provides excellent filtering and the ability to draw extra cards helps in a variety of match-ups. Again, Deathrite's +2 ability enables extra card draws in longer games, making Sylvan Library an auto-include.

SIDEBOARD ANALYSIS

Let's start with Jasper's sideboard and go through it card by card:
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Umezawa’s Jitte
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 Flusterstorm
1 Spell Pierce
1 Envelop
2 Thoughtseize
3 Lingering Souls

Cavern of Souls - I really don't understand this card choice. I'm sure the German team who tested this list had a very good idea for this card's inclusion, but when you look at the deck list, the only two creatures who share a creature type are Delver and Clique (from the board). My guess is that Cavern is included to push through a Geist of St. Traft. However, in a deck that is running 4 colors and 27 spells, it is hurtful to have any land that can only produce colorless mana for the majority of your spells.

Vendilion Clique - This card is good vs. combo and control. The deck easily supports the UU. This card is possibly a 2-of.

Engineered Explosives - Because this deck can produce up to 5 colors (courtesy of Deathrite), Engineered Explosives can become very big. Mainly used for Entreat Angel tokens and Mongeese, this card is a catch-all and fits well in this deck. At first glance, one may think that Deathrite would keep Nimble Mongoose under control, however, RUG's 6+ burn spell and 3+ post-board Submerges can keep Deathrite on the sidelines.

Umezawa's Jitte For the aggro match-ups and excellent in combination with Lingering Souls. In the SFM version, this card usually makes the main deck and this slot can be replace with Sword of Feast and Famine, should you so wish.

Swords to Plowshares - The best creature removal in the format. Players have started to main deck more STPs, so this slot may shift to the main deck or be replaced by some number of Path to Exiles in aggro-heavy metas.

[cardsFlusterstorm, Spell Pierce, Envelop[/cards] - the German builder took a 'shotgun' approach to the sideboard counter-suite. However, I've found myself wanting for 3 Spell Pierce vs. decks like Enchantress. Flusterstorm has its implications vs. Combo and Counterbalance and Envelop is very good vs. Miracles, so depending upon your meta, I can see any combination of the above as being strong choices.

2 Thoughtseize - Thoughtseize is good for combo-heavy metas. Can be come a flex-slot for extra removal or board control vs. metas that like to win via board state vs. the stack.

3 Lingering Souls - one of the best, if not the best, card in the sideboard. It comes in vs. aggro, it comes in vs. tempo, it comes in vs. control. About the only match-up you don't want to board this card in is vs. combo. It creates blockers to allow you to dig for answers, it creates evasive attackers, and it creates virtual card advantage through allowing you to flash it back. Vs. Miracles, it allows you to create 2 tokens at a time and forces them to use their sweepers sub-optimally.

Other Sideboard Options

Generally, I will start with links to two of wcm8's posts.

This link contains an updated list and analysis of about every viable sideboard option for the BUG shell: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...ht=#post620813

Here is a link where wcm8 discusses viable sideboard options for the white and red versions of this deck: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...ht=#post689460

Some additional sideboard cards that merit special attention are:

Meddling Mage - this deck supports UW and a 2/2 beater that provides permanent disruption and pitches to FOW is never a bad thing. Best for combo decks that revolve around one card, such as Show and Tell or Ad Nauseam.

Engineered Plague - Good against tribal decks like Goblins, Merfolk, or Elves. However, more than 1 naming 'Elf' will kill your Deathrites. Additionally, Engineered Plague on 'Humans,' as was popular when Maverick was more frequent, will kill unflipped Delvers.

Sideboard Strategies & Match-Up Analysis and Results
This is a work in progress and will be updated as testing produces results. If you have sideboard strategies, post in this forum or private message me and I will include them here.

Using the Geist list vs. RUG Delver

On the play: -4 FOW, -2 Thoughtseize, -1 Geist +3 Lingering Souls, +1 STP, +1 Spell Pierce, +1 Flusterstorm, +1 Jitte?
On the draw: -1 FOW, -3 Daze, -2 Thoughtseize, -2 Geist, +3 Lingering Souls, +1 EE, +2 STP, +1 Spell Pierce, +1 Flusterstorm, +1 Jitte?

Using the Geist list vs. Goblins, 2-0 Matches, 4-2 Games

-3 Daze, -4 FOW, -4 Geist, +3 STP, +3 L. Souls, +1 Jitte, +1 EE, +2 Thoughtseize, +1 Cavern.

I found we have plenty of turn 1 answers to a resolved Lackey (Deathrite, Delver, STP, Vapor Snag) and Abrupt Decay can hit an Aether Vial. Daze and FOW are near useless with Cavern of Souls and no Wastelands (I think Cavern should be legendary).

Using the Geist list vs. ANT, 1-0 Matches, 2-1 Games

Play: - 2 Vapor Snag, -1 STP, -1 Abrupt Decay, -2 Geist, +1 V. Clique, +1 Envelop, +1 Spell Pierce, +1 Flusterstorm, +2 Thoughtseize
Draw: - 2 Vapor Snag, -1 STP, -3 Geist, +1 V. Clique, +1 Envelop, +1 Spell Pierce, +1 Flusterstorm, +2 Thoughtseize

Vs. unknown decks, I've found that it is always best to leave in Abrupt Decay (vs. a card like STP). Because you don't know if they will bring in Xantid Swarm, Dark Confidant, Defense Grip, Carpet of Flowers, or some other mojo, Abrupt is an answer to everything. In a pinch, it can destroy an LED or Lotus Petal that was played to avoid discard.

On the play, I remove an Aburpt Decay and include an extra Geist because Daze becomes another answer to Xantid Swarm and Geist becomes active a turn earlier.

Using the Geist list vs. Maverick, 0-1 Matches, 1-2 Games

Play: -3 Geist, -4 FOW, -1 Thoughtseize, +1 EE, +1 Jitte, +3 STP, +3 Lingering Souls
Draw: -4 Geist, -3 Daze, -1 FOW, +1 EE, +1 Jitte, +3 STP, +3 Lingering Souls

Daze and Geist lose value on the draw. Geist is great if you can land it on an open board or a board with Noble Hierarch or Mother of Runes. However, once Thalia or KotR hits play, Geist is not very good. The Force of Wills on the draw are for Choke and possibly GSZ. On the play, I don't worry about Choke so much because Maverick has to answer our early threats (Maverick can land a Choke and we can still ride an early Delver to victory). Abrupt Decay, especially in combination with Deathrite is a great answer to Choke, KotR, Scavenging Ooze, and equipment.

Using the Geist list vs. Turbo Eldrazi, 1-2 Matches, 2-4 Games

- targeted discard helps vs. this match-up, but the lack of Wasteland hurts.

Using the Geist list vs. Merfolk, 1-0 Matches, 2-1 Games

Using the Geist list vs. Belcher, 1-0 Matches, 2-0 Games

Using the Geist list vs. BUG Midrange, 0-1 Matches, 1-2 Games

Using the Geist list vs. UW Miracles, 1-0 Matches, 2-0 Games

Using the Geist list vs. UW Rest in Peace, 1-0 Matches, 2-0 Games

Using the Geist list vs. UG Enchantress, 1-0 Matches, 2-1 Games

Using the Geist list vs. Bant Midrange, 1-0 Matches, 2-0 Games

Using the Geist list vs. Jund, 1-0 Matches, 2-0 Games

Using the Geist list vs. Aggro Loam, 1-0 Matches, 2-0 Games

Using the Geist list vs. Dredge, 1-0 Matches, 2-0 Games

Using the Geist list vs. Combo Elves, 1-0 Matches, 1-0 Games

Reserved

Just pointing that 56 you grasped from poromagia's site was number of different types of decks that showed up in finnish champs, not the number of participants. 108 was the correct number of players there.

Joe Bernal is playing 4 Colour Deathrite with Jace/SFM/Goyf/Deathrite at the Invitational in LA and is the last undefeated player right now in the field.

Maybe someone can get a hold of the list.

The decks presented match in colors and that they both have Deathite shaman, but the archetype, gameplan and winconditions are completely different.

where can you see it? I'm at starcitygames and there are no Legacy matches.

The deck in question is played in the legacy portion of the invitational.

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Originally Posted by Schembo

Just pointing that 56 you grasped from poromagia's site was number of different types of decks that showed up in finnish champs, not the number of participants. 108 was the correct number of players there.

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Thank you. Corrected. My Finnish is . . . .

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Originally Posted by BlackStarDeceiver

Joe Bernal is playing 4 Colour Deathrite with Jace/SFM/Goyf/Deathrite at the Invitational in LA and is the last undefeated player right now in the field.

Maybe someone can get a hold of the list.

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I will post it once I get a hold of it. It seems like this deck has really taken off in the past few weeks. I've played against Lewis Laskin and Tom Martell on MTGO, both rocking this list.

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Originally Posted by door

The decks presented match in colors and that they both have Deathite shaman, but the archetype, gameplan and winconditions are completely different.

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How so? Because one runs Geist of St. Traft and the other runs Stoneforge Mystic?

I haven't had time to complete the opening Primer, but once I do, I'll make the argument that the shell is the Deathrites, Delvers, Goyfs, Ponders, Brainstorms, Force of Wills, spot removal, and targeted discard. Then there are flex slots that include, but are not limited to, Geist of St. Traft, Knight of the Reliquary, Stoneforge Mystic, Jace, the Mind Sculptor, and/or Liliana of the Viel.

This deck is still in-flux and developmental. Some people have gone with a modified BUG Tempo shell. Others have modified an Esper Stoneblade list. Still others have modified a UW Stoneforge Tempo list, while others look more like Bant Aggro splashing black for Abrupt Decay and targeted discard.

We'll see how the deck evolves and into what different win cons, but the base is the same.

So can you answer why delver is played in the first list and not in the second? How about Jace or daze?

The first one is a tempo deck. It's plan is close to RUG delver's one. It wants to flip delver ASAP and beat fast. The cards like daze are good here, because the deck wants to close games fast.
The second one wants to control. It interacts with all opponent's actions. The main game plans are to clear way in a middle/late game for mystic and/or Jace. It has nothing in common with fast aggro and is close to esper blade.

These decks do not belong to one thread. It would be better to start a "tempo ugbw" thread and "control agbw" and collect decklists according to their archetype. Otherwise the thread will turn into porridge. Some people will discuss cards better for aggro/tempo, some for control. No one will understand each other because they would mean different things.

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Originally Posted by door

So can you answer why delver is played in the first list and not in the second? How about Jace or daze?

The first one is a tempo deck. It's plan is close to RUG delver's one. It wants to flip delver ASAP and beat fast. The cards like daze are good here, because the deck wants to close games fast.
The second one wants to control. It interacts with all opponent's actions. The main game plans are to clear way in a middle/late game for mystic and/or Jace. It has nothing in common with fast aggro and is close to esper blade.

These decks do not belong to one thread. It would be better to start a "tempo ugbw" thread and "control agbw" and collect decklists according to their archetype. Otherwise the thread will turn into porridge. Some people will discuss cards better for aggro/tempo, some for control. No one will understand each other because they would mean different things.

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Agreed. Thank you for the input. The 2nd list (Ohman's Finnish National's list) is really Esper with a slight green splash for Deathrite and a single Abrupt Decay out of the board. I agree with you, his list is more control oriented and does not belong in this thread. This is a tempo thread, based around a tempo deck that focuses on landing an early threat, disruption, and a victory between turns 6-10.

How does this compare to 3-color Wild Nacatl or 1-color Cursecatcher?

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Originally Posted by lordofthepit

How does this compare to 3-color Wild Nacatl or 1-color Cursecatcher?

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I'm not sure I understand your question. You mean Zoo or Merfolk?

I'm familiar with Dark Zoo and Haunted Zoo, so perhaps comparisons can be made. However, those decks tend to be Aggro (get you from 20 to 0 as quickly as possible), while this deck is Tempo (which packs disruption in the form of discard, removal, and counterspells.)

If you could post the lists that you are referring to, I could better provide analysis.

There are two major arch-types of 4-color Deathrite emerging.

The first is the tempo version, which is covered above. The tempo version looks like a modified version of BUG tempo or UW Tempo. It runs Delver of Secrets and around 19 lands, with no main-deck threats above 3 cc. It has more of a heavy reliance upon green, running Tarmogoyf and Sylvan Library in addition to Deathrite Shaman and Abrupt Decay.

The second version is a mid-range version. It looks like a modified version of EsperStoneblade. This version runs 22-23 lands and main deck Jace and does not include Delver of Secrets. The deck splashes green for Deathrite Shaman, Abrupt Decay, and possibly Maelstrom Pulse in the board. Two versions of this deck are available here:

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=51658

and here:

http://poromagia.com/index.php?page=...&articleid=116 (2nd list)

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Originally Posted by lordofthepit

How does this compare to 3-color Wild Nacatl or 1-color Cursecatcher?

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+1

But more importantly, 4 color decks have too many mana problems to be viable. People used to try and play 4 color thresh back in the day, one guy won a GP(I think...Hemet Somethingorother) and then everyone realized that 4 colors with wastelands and stifles in the format is too difficult to obtain. This is also why 4 color blue is not a real deck.

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Originally Posted by lavafrogg

+1

But more importantly, 4 color decks have too many mana problems to be viable. People used to try and play 4 color thresh back in the day, one guy won a GP(I think...Hemet Somethingorother) and then everyone realized that 4 colors with wastelands and stifles in the format is too difficult to obtain. This is also why 4 color blue is not a real deck.

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This comment may have been true before the printing of Deathrite Shaman. However, Deathrite provides you with mana fixing, life gain, life loss, and graveyard manipulation all in a 1 cc 1/2 body. Previous decks were relying solely upon land or things like Birds of Paradise, that outside of being a mana producer, were useless.

4-Color Deathrite's biggest fear is not the destruction of its mana base, it's the destruction of its graveyard. The mana base is fairly sound because a) the deck runs a relatively low curve, b) none of the main deck threats require more than 1 of any colored mana (no UU or BB), and c) to attack the mana base, an opponent must attack both lands (Wasteland/Stifle) and Deathrite or the graveyard. The mana plan has built-in redundancies.

I think two weeks ago, your comment had merit. However, how do you explain the numerous high-place finishes? Look at the German list. Both 2nd and 3rd place were RUG Delver decks packing 4 Wastelands and 4 Stifles, so clearly he had to get through one or both of them to win the tourney.

EDIT: I would also like to ask how many times you have played this deck? How many times have you played against it? It's easy to comment from the armchair, but until you've actually stepped into the game, your credibility has its limits. When this deck first appeared in the BUG Tempo forum, I thought that it was ridiculous that the deck ran 4 Geists. I'm still not sold on that slot, but if you run the deck, it is very smooth.

All change goes through three distinct phases. Dismissal (we're in that stage now), vehement opposition, and then general acceptance, acting as if the change were self-evident.

There are 4 lists on SCG's website from the Invitational and all 4 are running the full play set of Deathrite Shamans (15 main, 1 sideboard.)

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Originally Posted by lordofthepit

How does this compare to 3-color Wild Nacatl or 1-color Cursecatcher?

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Because Death-rite Shaman can attack strategies that are prevalent in Legacy where as Wild Nacatl does it's own thing and Cursecatcher was good against a strategy that has hit an all time low (Storm).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Water_Wizard

This comment may have been true before the printing of Deathrite Shaman. However, Deathrite provides you with mana fixing, life gain, life loss, and graveyard manipulation all in a 1 cc 1/2 body. Previous decks were relying solely upon land or things like Birds of Paradise, that outside of being a mana producer, were useless.

4-Color Deathrite's biggest fear is not the destruction of its mana base, it's the destruction of its graveyard. The mana base is fairly sound because a) the deck runs a relatively low curve, b) none of the main deck threats require more than 1 of any colored mana (no UU or BB), and c) to attack the mana base, an opponent must attack both lands (Wasteland/Stifle) and Deathrite or the graveyard. The mana plan has built-in redundancies.

I think two weeks ago, your comment had merit. However, how do you explain the numerous high-place finishes? Look at the German list. Both 2nd and 3rd place were RUG Delver decks packing 4 Wastelands and 4 Stifles, so clearly he had to get through one or both of them to win the tourney.

EDIT: I would also like to ask how many times you have played this deck? How many times have you played against it? It's easy to comment from the armchair, but until you've actually stepped into the game, your credibility has its limits. When this deck first appeared in the BUG Tempo forum, I thought that it was ridiculous that the deck ran 4 Geists. I'm still not sold on that slot, but if you run the deck, it is very smooth.

All change goes through three distinct phases. Dismissal (we're in that stage now), vehement opposition, and then general acceptance, acting as if the change were self-evident.

There are 4 lists on SCG's website from the Invitational and all 4 are running the full play set of Deathrite Shamans (15 main, 1 sideboard.)

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I am the biggest supporter of Deathrite Shaman, you can look at posts back when he was spoiled and I raved about how every rock player should get four while they were still 4 dollars. I love the card to death. That being said, if you are relying on your shaman to fix your mana than RUG is going to kill your shaman. The strength of RUG is its versatility and when they go back to 4 bolt 4 (burn spell) they will kill the shaman on sight and also get a leg up on Maverick.

Once a deck is in the top 8, anything can happen. I watched AJ Sacher lose two games to show and tell that he had no business losing playing the combo stomping BUG list with discard and counters. RUG decks and BUG decks in the top 8 tells me that the RUG/BUG decks are two top decks that have advantages over each other. BUG uses shaman to attack the graveyard and RUG uses disruption to attack the mana base. Soon RUG will pack more scavenging oozes to counter the shaman and the cat and mouse will continue.

What I am saying is 4 color decks are too unstable for long term play hopefully I am wrong and the format can continue to innovate and grow, the deck is still just 4 color blue so it is not like we are reinventing the wheel or anything.

Team Channel Fireball 4-Color list?: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=51638

I love how they eschewed Force of Will. The deck runs no counterspells, besides the 2 Envelops in the board.

Here's another 4-Color list. It looks like Big Maverick: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=51628

It seems like the mid-range 4-color lists were preferred at the Invitational. The lists above run 23 and 22 lands, respectively, and both are packing a full play set of Jaces.

No 4-Color Deathrite Tempo decks made the cut. I don't know if any were played.

Side notes:

4color deathrite is not an optimal deck name, given that there is already a very different 4 color deathrite deck (waterfalls aka UGrb cascade) and there might be other ideas. I suggest the deckname should include the colors and the strategy aka uwgb tempo.

Also my interpretation of "established deck" is different. Having a couple of good finishes does not make a list an established deck imo. If it establishes or becomes DTB mods can always move it.