[Deck] Dark Depths

It was announced today, that the Legendary Rule that's in place since Champions of Kamigawa got a slight revision. This enables Dark Depths + Thespian's Stage, making Vampire Hexmage and its BB cost a bit more obsolete. So I was thinking that we could come up with a shared deck idea that we can try.

I don't have a list in mind yet but I guess it's probably a good starting point to base it off the BUG shell because we can still run 1-2 Hexmages but this would be where I'd begin:

4 Tarmogoyf
2 Baleful Strix
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Vampire Hexmage
(11)

2 Crop Rotation
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Thoughtseize
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Spell Pierce
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Liliana of the Veil
4 Brainstorm
3 Hymn to Tourach
(25)

4 Misty Rainforest
2 Polluted Delta
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
4 Dark Depths
3 Thespian's Stage
(24)

I am sure this list is super rough and the mana base is far from good... but I guess this is what this board is for. Let's build something!

I would add some Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, it's a legend so it's better with the new rules, with it in play both Thespian's Stage and Dark Depths can be tapped for B so will be easier to cast both Vampire Hexmage and Liliana of the Veil

In your current list you have 2 lines with Liliana, playing a total of 5 copies.

OMG, this + Knight of the Reliquary -____-

as if it wasn't enough

Quote:

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Originally Posted by PissedNumlock

In your current list you have 2 lines with Liliana, playing a total of 5 copies.

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sry, kinda typed it blindly. should have been hymn although i am not sure it is that good with its BB cost.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by lsho

This enables Dark Depths + Thespian's Stage, making Vampire Hexmage and its BB cost a bit more obsolete.

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Vampire hexmage is not obsolete.Because while he is an important part of this combo, you want to protect it as well, which is clearly why you have liliana and hymn included. Two cards who also have BB in their cost, arguably played earlier than hexmage. So while his BB casting cost can be a bit tough, so can those other cards. I would definitely include at least 3 hexmage, maybe even living wish. You definitely do not need 24 lands, seeing as your curve tops at 3, and you run top and brainstorm, along with 4 shamans. You will get land flooded so often. So remove 4 lands, add urborg to what you already have, at least 2, include more hexmages, and maybe another crop rotation. You probab
ly dont need thoughtseize, inquisition, and hymn, so i'd pick two and stick with those. probably thoughtseize, since you're not running bob or anything, meaning the life loss is negligible. And if you do get Marit Lage out, they're gonna swords it, meaning you gain 20 life. Also do playset of top.

I advise going GW (Just splash the combo into Mav) or go Straight up GB. I don't think the blue is worth it because by playing Thespian Stage, your mana is very fragile. I'd play this list:

4 Deathrite
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant

4 Thoughtseize
3 Inquisition
3 Crop Rotation
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sylvan Library
2 Liliana
4 Living Wish

3 Thespian's Stage
3 Dark Depths
4 Wasteland
4 Verdant Catacomb
1 Misty
1 Marsh Flats
2 Delta
2 Bayou
1 Forest
2 Swamps
2 Urborg

SB:

1 Thespian's Stage
1 Dark Depths
1 Karakas
1 Vampire Hexmage (in case of stuff like Pithing Needle)
1 Shriekmaw
1 Bojuka Bog
etc etc

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ivanpei

1 Vampire Hexmage (in case of stuff like Pithing Needle)

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Do you mean surgical extraction?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by imnotbrown

Do you mean surgical extraction?

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No I think he means if some1 needle's your stage as a backup option.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by vennie

No I think he means if some1 needle's your stage as a backup option.

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Oh, I didn't realize he wasn't running hexmage main. Well, I'm still going with what i said before. Don't need 25 lands, 3 crop rotate and 2 urborg will definitely keep mana from being a problem, play all 4 tops, play hexmages main, yadda yadda yadda.
EDIT: not sure if wasteland i necessary.
Second edit: did nto realize that copying dark depths with stage would mean a depths without ice counters. nevermind.

I dont think the combo is strong enough. STP is a card as is Maze of Ith.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JanoschEausH

I dont think the combo is strong enough. STP is a card as is Maze of Ith.

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So is discard and wasteland. No combo is perfect. Having an answer to their answer works. IMO I still prefer the GW Mav version because you don't have to "all in" on the combo. It can just be used as a combo finish if you need it or if there is an opening (ie opponent is tapped out, etc).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JanoschEausH

I dont think the combo is strong enough. STP is a card as is Maze of Ith.

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In addition to the solutions Ivanpei mentioned, you could run Not of this world. That may put you more in on the combo, but life's more fun on the dark side anyway.

Creatures - 3
3 Vampire Hexmage

Art - 11
3 Crucible of Worlds
4 Mox Diamond
4 Chalice of the Void

Spells - 22
4 Living Wish
4 Crop Rotation
4 Explore
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Sylvan Scrying
2 Maelstrom Pulse

Lands - 24
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Dark Depths
2 Thespains Stage
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Bayou
4 Wasteland
2 Swamp
1 Forest

My Gb Take on it.

I think Life from the loam is probably better than crucible there. I'm also not sure that I love wasteland in this deck. I've been running more acceleration like dark ritual to try and keep the stage version of the combo at a similar speed as the hexmage. Wasting your opponent is just slowing you down. I've also been testing with four not of this world MD.

This may be super jank land but it's actually rather consistent

Just don't forget that loam gets taken by Deathrite Shaman and Crucible of Worlds gets taken by Abrupt Decay.

I have been playing Junk Depths list for the last month and change, currently having taken it to three weekly events at my local store in addition to other playtesting. At the store the smallest event was 18 players with the largest around 30 iirc. All three weeks I have top-8'd with a total of 14 matches played which comes out to winning around $55 from this deck so far. Of those 14 games I won 9(including some games where we intentionally drew, then played it out for fun), 1 ID, and 4 losses. Two losses to the same UW Cawblade/miracles hybrid, one to TES, and one to Punishing Jund. Since I have found the deck extremely enjoyable and also rather powerful I figured I would post my list and thoughts on here soon, but with the rule changes I believe the deck has become even more powerful than it already is. Overall I think this deck has some really sweet interactions, and of the losses I've had at the local tournaments one of the Miracles losses and the Jund loss were both caused by my own errors in the last turn of the game which lost the matches I could have won if I had made optimal plays.

If you want to just see what I think will be the best after the rules change goes into effect skip to the bottom, however this section on the deck currently I think will make the list there make a lot more sense to you.

Here is the list I have been running to within 2-3 cards

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
3 Vampire Hexmage
4 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Gaddock Teeg

3 Crop Rotation
4 Swords to Plowshares

1 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Thoughtseize
1 Life from the Loam
4 Living Wish

2 Sensei's Divining Top

2 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Marsh Flats
3 Wasteland
1 Dark Depths
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Maze of Ith
1 Sejiri Steppe
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Karakas

SB

1 Dark Depths
1 Vampire Hexmage
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Darkblast
1 Extirpate
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Nature's Claim
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Krosan Grip
1 Orzhov Pontiff
2 Ethersworn Canonist


Before you go bashing the list, I do at least have some reasoning behind the cards currently there and what is conspicuously absent from it that might be in similar lists.

It has some advantages over a list focused solely on the combo, and plays the fair creature game rather well.

The Combo
3 Hexmage/1 Depths main
1 Hexmage/1 Depths board

Pretty self explanatory with Living Wishes.

The Enablers
4 Living Wish: Tutors up your sb copies of the combo, and additional answers to problematic things on board. Often you will end up blowing a Hexmage to kill a Liliana or a Jace before you go grab your combo to insta-win, and this lets you find a lot of value cards to get you to a win either with a 20/20 or just beat them with huge Knights.

4 Knight of the Reliquary: Probably one of the best creatures in the deck. Tutors for the Depths in the main, or for protection from removal, or just is a big beater to finish out fair games or a wall to keep you alive long enough to win. Its difficult to lose if you untap with one or more Knights ever in the game.

3 Crop Rotation: Also functions as a combo-piece finder, and protection finding your utility lands at instant speed to keep your marit lage alive, or just to keep you alive long enough to win with your other creatures.

The Fair Stuff

4 Dark Confidant: Simple, draws you lots of cards. Often if your opponent doesn't know what your end-goal is they will waste their Swords to Plowshares or other removal on it and not have any relevant removal for your Hexmage or Marit Lage a couple turns later

4 Deathrite Shaman: Mana-dork, lavamancer, lifegain, graveyard hate. This guy does everything, and there is no real point for me to talk more about him here.

1 Qasali Pridemage: Good removal for Jitte's/Batterskulls as about half the time you want to win with one swing and lifegain can give them another turn to deal with your Marit Lage.

2 Sensei's Divining Top: Finds your combo, finds whatever you need really. Interacts favorably with Bob, and gives you a way to play around discard by floating a crop rotation against Hymn decks, and drawing it in response to a removal spell on your Hexmage/Marit Lage or on their end step if they ever tap out against you.

1 Green Sun's Zenith: Useful, but not overly so in this list. Its a second Teeg and Pridemage in the main, and occasionally a Knight or a Shaman when you need it. This could very easily become another thoughtsieze or crop rotation.

4 Swords to Plowshares: Best removal for creatures.

3 Wasteland: Disruption. Often the safest play with it is to remove their only white source on the turn you want to make a Marit Lage, or to hold it to kill their wasteland before you try to remove the counters with Hexmage.

Protection/Disruption

3 Thoughtsieze: Disruption for combo decks, lets you check and see if the coast is clear to combo and kill them, and just generally slows them down a bit. Almost never dead against most decks. Could easily be correct to play 4th copy, however you have enough other disruption and protection 3 has been fine for me and rarely did I want more than one or maybe 2 in most games.

1 Life from the Loam: Lets you get back a Depths if you need to make a second Marit Lage after it has been removed, or just waste-locks people out some games.

1 Gaddock Teeg: Your best card against Miracles by far. As that is one of the hardest match-ups for this style of deck, you want this in the main somewhere and wishing for the second copy or just to keep as terminus protection is critical against them. Also works well against most blue but non-white decks, as their main out to a Marit Lage will be Jace.

1 Bojuka Bog: 1 main and one board to wish for gives you outs to dredge game one, and slows down U/x decks or Punishing Fire decks that are either snapcastering cantrips to find their outs or just recurring removal for all your dudes.

1 Karakas: randomly good against a lot of decks, lets you bounce your Teeg to replay later if its going to die.

1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth: Mana fixing, makes Depths tap for mana, same with Maze.

1 Sejiri Steppe: I wish I could find space for two of these, as it leads to a lot of the best blowouts I have had. Turns your Crop Rotations and Knight activations into protection from StP, or Decay most commonly, and lets you get a huge Knight or Marit Lage through a clogged board for the final damage.

1 Volrath's Stronghold: Lets you dredge into all your pieces if the game goes that long. A little slow and clunky, with the new rules changes this may get cut in favor of Thespian's Stage or other utility lands as Hexmage isn't as critical after that goes into effect.

1 Maze of Ith: Lets you stall the game until you can win later, or gives your Knights "vigilance" by untapping them after damage. In a list with this much land tutoring already, its silly not to play this powerful of an effect.

1 Horizon Canopy: With 25 Lands, only 23 of which normally produce mana that's sometimes a little too much land. I kept going between 22 and 23 lands outside of Depths and Maze, with 22 being a little light for trying to hit your first 4 drops every game and 23 getting flooded more than I would like, and this is a good compromise being a land when you need one, and trading it in later for a card when you don't.

Sideboard Cards

1 Gaddock Teeg, Dark Depths, Vampire Hexmage, Bojuka Bog, Pridemage: See above

1 Darkblast: Comes in against most fair decks. Recurrable removal for Moms, opposing Bobs, and X/1 fliers that can chump your Marit Lage is good. Also since all your pieces can be found by dredging with the Stronghold and Loam, dredging it is almost never bad.

1 Extirpate/1 Surgical extraction: Graveyard/combo hate. These are just the most efficient at what they do. Split second is almost never a relevant line of text, but when almost every land you have adds B to your pool, its nice to have multiple disruption pieces.

1 Nature's Claim: Artifact/Enchantment destruction is good in lots of situations, and having a one mana answer to swords/jitte/batterskull/counterbalance is very nice.

1 Abrupt Decay: Good all-purpose removal. Mostly worth it for fair decks with Liliana in them.

1 Krosan Grip: I like having varied casting-cost removal and not running several of the same card. Makes it harder for your opponent to know what to play around, but it certainly wouldn't be wrong to choose your favorite removal and just run multiples of that.

1 Diabolic Edict: More creature removal, and hates on Sneak & Show.

2 Ethersworn Canonist: Storm hate, also typically bring one in against decks with Shardless Agent or Bloodbraid Elf as another body/roadblock to slow them down

1 Orzhov Pontiff: One of the best wish targets in the deck. Often the hardest matches are the ones with large clogged boards and/or Lingering Souls tokens. This becomes a 1-sided wrath and is excellent against tokens/multiple Moms etc. The haunt ability is largely irrelevant, however just clearing out the opposing board for an alpha strike is very very good if the game goes long. Also another out to goblins dumping their hand with a lackey you couldn't answer or Empty tokens.

Not Included

0 Liliana of the Veil: You want to be drawing and holding as many cards as possible typically. Her edict and her hand disruption don't really help us against any of the decks we are having trouble against.

0 Dryad Arbor: You want to be casting your hexmages early and a land that can't tap for mana on turn one and doesn't produce black is not very good. I have debated running it and had it in an earlier version of this list as protection against edicts to turn Crop Rotation or Knight or a green fetch into a way to thwart Liliana, however it was too clunky when drawn outside of that to keep in.

0 Hymn to Tourach: You're not playing the attrition game typically with this deck, and most of their cards are irrelevant to Marit Lage, so Thoughtsieze is just better most of the time.

More Abrupt Decay: The cannot be countered clause is largely irrelevant, and it's really just an ok removal spell since most decks only have 1-2 things you need to get through to hit them.

0 Exploration/Explore/Sylvan Scrying/Expedition Map: You don't really need to be playing multiple lands/turn with this style of deck or even have more tutor effects than you already have. Its ok to spend your first couple turns using discard and running out typical removal lightning rods like Deathrite Shaman and Bob and then combo them on turn three or four when they have no more relevant removal.

More Green Sun's Zenith: This card is really not at its best here, and is mainly just a utility card to smooth out finding a Knight or Teeg.


Notes and thoughts on Sidaboarding with the current list:

Sideboarding with this deck should be minimal. Ideally you are switching less than five cards total. Often against (non-Grizzlebees) combo I will take out the 4 StP and the Pridemage for the 2nd Teeg, the 2 Canonists, and the Surgical/Extirpate if its relevant. Against Stoneblade decks you typically want to bring in only the Decay, the Grip, and the Nature's Claim, often shaving a StP (since decay hits their Mystics), a Deathrite Shaman or two if you think they have RIP, or a Teeg if they are non-blue.

Most decks are slow enough that you can leave your second Teeg and Pridemage in the board to wish for but things like TES and ANT you want them all main. Against most storm decks you want to take out the 4 StP and your 4 Living Wish and the Pridemage for all your relevant wish targets and hate because you just wont have time to resolve both wish and your hatebears.

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That about covers the current list I have been playing and pretty much all the thoughts that are relevant on it. On now to where I think the deck should go in light of the new rules changes. The deck honestly needs very minimal changes to be more competitive in my mind. The above list works very well and is rather consistent and has a lot going for it, especially since you will no longer have to be all in on Hexmage to get your Marit Lage token.


4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
3 Vampire Hexmage
4 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Gaddock Teeg

4 Crop Rotation
4 Swords to Plowshares

3 Thoughtseize
1 Life from the Loam
4 Living Wish

2 Sensei's Divining Top

2 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Marsh Flats
3 Wasteland
1 Dark Depths
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Maze of Ith
1 Sejiri Steppe
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Thespian's Stage
1 Karakas

SB

1 Thespian's Stage
1 Dark Depths
1 Vampire Hexmage
1 Darkblast
1 Extirpate
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Nature's Claim
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Krosan Grip
1 Orzhov Pontiff
2 Ethersworn Canonist


The differences if you don't want to have to compare yourself are

MD
-1 Green Sun's Zenith
+1 Crop Rotation
-1 Volrath's Stronghold
+1 Thespian's Stage


SB
+1 Thespian's Stage
-1 Whatever you think will be least helpful in your meta(in my case probably Darkblast, Edict, or most likely, the Bog)

Now before you go off about how this isn't a drastic change from the current list or is too fragile or not fast enough, there are several reasons why in my mind I don't want to alter the core of the deck too much.
First and foremost, it works as is. It can play the fair game very well, and occasionally just "oops, I win with my 20/20"
Secondly, Thespian's Stage is slower, because it effectively costs 3 mana to use (2 to activate, and tapping itself for the "third" mana), and Depths has to be in play to do that. Its a turn slower than a Hexmage because of the costs required.
Thirdly, the Stage is really just a way to get more mileage out of your tutors. It also allows for you to keep mana up or a Knight up and gives you an out to a wasteland you cannot deal with.
For example, you activate Hexmage and remove all the counters on Depths. In response to the trigger from Depths, they target it with wasteland. Normally this means you just edicted yourself and they blow up your depths, however with a stage in your library and a tutor you can respond to that by tutoring up the stage, making it a copy of depths choosing to sacrifice your depths from the new legend rule, then their wasteland gets countered because it has no valid targets, and your Stage Depths triggers to make your 20/20.
Stage also allows you to cut Stronghold as a way to allow you to dredge to your combo. Stronghold was always clunky, but necessary for multiple recursions of Depths before now. However with this change you only need Loam. It also gives you another wish target if your hexmage gets named with a Revoker or Pithing Needle.
Also, having multiple pieces tutorable with Crop Rotation and Knight is a plus, but if the rest of your deck is capable of winning on its own, you really don't need multiples of either in the main to tutor for. Also by boarding one of each combo piece it makes it very difficult to have your combo surgically extracted away from you.

Finally, this list is both fun and consistent. It doesn't rely on Marit Lage to win all your games for you, and instead strings together a lot of synergistic cards and effects and is completely capable of winning without ever making 20/20 indestructible fliers. While I'm sure there are other ways to consistently get a Marit Lage in play sooner or more consistently, I don't think there is much advantage to those strategies over something more balanced like this is. I have also been working on a BUG Depths list, however I don't have any playtesting or tournament data to back that up. With this announcement I would like to try and test and run Bant Depths list, which to me seems like one of the better routes to go with this deck, but until I can do some further testing I don't want to say too much on it.

I am trying to come up with something more akin to its the fear, utilizing a intuition package.. first draft so far

2x Baleful Strix
3x Snapcaster Mage
1x Vendilion Clique

1x Engineered Explosives
4x Sensei's Divining Top
4x Counterbalance

4x Brainstorm
4x Abrupt Decay
1x Life from the Loam
1x Far // Away
4x Intuition
4x FoW
4x Jace

1x Academy Ruins
1x Dark Depths
1x Thespian's Stage
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1x Wasteland
1x Riptide Laboratory
2x Island
1x Forest
1x Swamp
4x Misty Rainforest
3x Polluted Delta
4x Tropical Island
3x Underground Sea

I would actually like to see this combo find a place in a Deadguy shell, possibly a Vial-based list. Weathered Wayfarer, Mom, Vindicate, Bob...or maybe I just have a weak spot for bad midrange creature decks.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Richard Cheese

I would actually like to see this combo find a place in a Deadguy shell, possibly a Vial-based list. Weathered Wayfarer, Mom, Vindicate, Bob...or maybe I just have a weak spot for bad midrange creature decks.

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I think we should look at the advantages/disadvantages of playing this combo in the following shell-styles:

Full combo
Aggro with combo finish
Midrange with combo finish
Control with combo finish

Going all in on your 20/20 means that you'll need to have answers for:
Karakas
Swords to plowshares
Abrupt Decay
Engineered Explosives
Terminus


We can't beat decay with permission so discard is pretty necessary. not of this world beats some of those cards but doesn't do anything when it's not ensuring your win-con actually wins the game, and cards like that aren't typically fantastic (although in the case of hive mind they still work)

Additionally, vines of vastwood deals with a lot of those answers. Other fragile decks like infect are all-in on a single creature and looking at their lists for answers to spot removal could be informative.

If you can't beat those cards consistently, then you're looking at playing a fair deck with combo finish, but I think that with all of this redundancy it's worth exploring a dedicated combo deck. If this deck does get popular, cards like repeal sure will be a beating.