[Deck] Burn

We are starting a new Burn thread since Burn is obviously an archetype that many members are interested in discussing. The old Burn thread developed into a 25 page discussion – one of our longest - within three months. This amount of discussion shows us that people love to talk about burn.

But the Burn thread is also a Moderator’s nightmare. Out of those 25 pages, there are more worthless posts, undeveloped posts, and flames than I care to count. Previous burn threads have followed the same pattern: they are heavily flooded with junk and then heavily modded. Next, they are flooded with more junk and moderators become frustrated and later apathetic and the thread spirals into a disaster. Be wary of making worthless posts.

In this new thread, please make posts that are well-developed and free of flames. Keep in mind that most issues about burn have been discussed to death. It will be very difficult to come to a consensus about the following issues and these issues will be heavily modded:
[*] Browbeat[*] Lava Dart[*] # of Mountains needed to support Fireblast[*] Fork

Lastly, we had asked for submissions to restart the thread and have received a number of quality ones. I will post them below, giving credit to authors.

by Grah
Burn.

Burn is and has been a mainstay of MTG for years in various forms. There are a lot of forms of it in Legacy, but there are certainly quite a few cards in the mainstream builds.

The first thing to know is that these slots are totally, utterly non-negotiable:

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Incinerate
4 Chain Lightning
4 Magma Jet
4 Fireblast
3 Flamebreak (or Earthquake) (Many people have 4. You need at least 3.)

You can toy around with the rest, but these 24 slots are REQUIRED to make a Legacy Burn deck good. These are the best red spells available.

GRAH-style Burn:

18 Mountain

4 Mogg Fanatic

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Incinerate
4 Chain Lightning
4 Magma Jet
4 Fireblast
4 Flamebreak
4 Chain of Plasma
4 Lava Spike
2 Browbeat
1 Sulfuric Vortex
3 Price of Progress


bigbear102-style Burn:

16 Mountain
4 Wasteland

4 Mogg Fanatic

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Incinerate
4 Chain Lightning
4 Magma Jet
4 Fireblast
4 Lava Spike
3 Price of Progress
3 Earthquake
3 Fork
2 Pithing Needle
1 Sulfuric Vortex


Burn, or at least our version, focuses on making your opponent's cards dead. Their creature, artifact, nonbasic, and enchantment hate is all pretty much wasted on this deck. You, however, should rarely be having any dead cards. Just keep pounding, while burning away any immediate creature threats.

A comment both Zilla and I have made is that this functions a lot like a combo deck; most like Solidarity, strangely. It's possible to "fizzle" in the sense that you simply run out of steam. This doesn't always happen, and Magma Jet really helps against this. One of the major causes of this is the lack of a reliable draw engine. Unfortunately, since this IS red, that's not available.

The differences between these two are less subtle than you'd think. Bigbear's version is a more metagamed version, with Pithing Needle, Wasteland and Fork, playing more lands and a finishing one-two punch, whereas I dropped Fork and lowered my land count for a little more speed, even at the small risk of "fizzling." Note that Bigbear only plays Earthquake because of Wasteland--Flamebreak is strictly superior to Earthquake.

Some of the card choices:

Mogg Fanatic - This card is incredible. Despite the "make creature hate dead" idea of this deck, Fanatic is an exception because they can really never kill it. It functions as a one-mana Fire versus most decks, and it's absolutely great versus Goblins since it takes Lackeys out so well.

Lava Spike - While most people see it as Lightning Bolt's retarded cousin, it's incredibly good since it's still a 1-for-3, which is good. It and Mogg Fantastic are the first cards you should be playing.

Chain of Plasma - It's rarely ever copied, and when it is, you'll usually be copying it back. It's most often just an Incinerate.

Price of Progress - I originally included this as a metagame card. It's turned out to be one of the mainstays in the deck. It improves your bad matchups against Gro and Fish because it does IMMENSE damage to them (6-8 on average), and averages out at 4 damage generally. With more Goblin decks playing duals AND Wasteland/Port, this is even better.

Browbeat - It's considered a bad card, but it's usually just a really undercosted Lava Axe, which is damn good. And, when your opponent is at low enough life, it draws you into the win next turn.

Fork - It's an army knife sort of card. It's mostly for copying Fireblasts, but it can function as an Incinerate or a counter-counterspell.

Sulfuric Vortex - The single copy of both is often a strange surprise. Vortex is good against so many decks that it's worth MDing one.


Sideboard options:

Pithing Needle - This card is a lot like Naturalize in green decks. It can do well against so many decks that it's worth including.

Flaring Pain - While it serves the same purpose as Needle versus COP: Red, it can also be good for stopping Sphere of Law and Worship, which Needle cannot.

Red Elemental Blast/Pyroblast - Blue is rather prevalent in the format, with Solidarity. You also can use these to take out Chills. Play no less than 6 of these, combined. I play 4 of each.

Sirocco - Solidarity says goodbye.

Anarchy - More tech against stuff like COP: Red and Sphere of Law. It's particularly good against Angel Stompy. However, its cc is so high that it can be a liability.


Splashes:

For both of these splashes, what I'd recommend most is replacing 8 Mountains with 6 fetchlands and 2 of the appropriate duals, a la Goblins.

-White Splash: One of the splashes that has been proposed is a white splash for Lightning Helix in the MD (a negligible choice), and Disenchant in the sideboard. Disenchant is real anti-hate. It takes out all of the major red hate cards.

-Blue Splash: A recent suggestion is a blue splash, for Alter Reality and perhaps Blue Elemental Blast. Alter Reality is even better than Disenchant against hate. Change Chill into "Blue spells cost (2) more to play" and watch your opponent die.


Tips on playing Burn:

While Burn can be seen as an autopilot deck, it's hardly that. A lot of skill is required in deciding whether to aim at the head, or the field. The first things you should play are Lava Spike and Mogg Fanatic, unless there is an immediate threat. This allows you to play your creature-killing things later, for conservation. Magma Jet should target creatures more than other spot-burn, since it deals the least damage. Flamebreak is a reset against creature-based decks--it's alright to take a little bit of damage so you can throw a burn spell at the head rather than waste it. Go as fast as possible. The longer you wait, the easier it'll be for your opponent to overcome you.

What you need to remember most is this: EVEN AGAINST GOBLINS, YOU ARE ALMOST ALWAYS THE AGGRO ROLE. This deck wants its turn-4 wins.


Matchups:

-Goblins: A great matchup. Flamebreak shines here as you completely wipe their forces out. You really shouldn't burn their creatures other than Warchief, Piledriver, and SOMETIMES Lackey. Sever the head and Flamebreak the body.

-Landstill: Almost a bye, even with all their hate. Game 1 is pathetically easy. Just keep aiming at the head and don't look back. For game 2, you can board in Sulfuric Vortexes and Pithing Needle or Flaring Pain to hate THEIR hate.

-Solidarity: This plays out like a Solidarity mirror match. Just keep the steady flow of burn. You'll probably lose game 1, but in game 2 you can board in 8 REBs and just shoot away at their combo pieces. I suggest REBing the High Tide.

-Gro: Possibly the worst matchup, just like Solidarity. They have a steady supply of counterspells combined with a good clock. Other than Dryad (which is easy to kill), once they hit Threshold, their stuff is outside of Flamebreak range. That is an issue. They also board in Chills. I recommend SBing in REBs for this matchup.

-Angel Stompy/WW: Though you would think this would be a bad matchup, it really isn't. Just because you can't handle a couple creatures doesn't mean you have a problem, because they have a really poor-quality clock and no way to prevent your burn. Then, Flaring Pain or Anarchy can come in, and it'll go the same way, even through Worship or Pariah.


Issues at hand:

-As I said before, this deck can have a problem with "fizzling." Zilla proposed we add a slower but longer-term win condition to stop this. So far, though, no one has decided on how to implement this.

by BigBear
Burn. I need to stress that this thread is about BURN. Not goblins, not sligh, but straight up, smash it over your head BURN.

The archetype has grown immensely in the past few months, and seems to be growing by leaps and bounds lately. There have been many new innovations to the deck, and many have not been tested thouroughly, which is why a new thread is needed seeing the old has been locked.

I will post what I believe is one of the most widely agreed upon builds, and then I will go through other possible additions and sideboard options.

Burn:

4x Lightning Bolt
4x Incinerate
4x Chain Lightning
4x Lava Spike
4x Magma Jet
4x Fireblast
3x Price of Progress
2x Browbeat
3x Volcanic Hammer
4x Mogg Fanatic
4x Flamebreak
1x Sulfuric Vortex

19x Mountain

SB:
4x REB
3x Anarchy
2x Sulfuric Vortex
3x Sirocco/Pyrostatic Pillar
3x Pithing Needle



Many other cards have been considered and are still being played by many.

These cards consist of:

Fork
Flame Rift
Chain of Plasma
Earthquake
Lightning Helix

Sideboard cards being considered are:

Disenchant
Alter Reality
Pyrostatic Pillar
Anarchy
Pithing Needle
REB/Pyroblast
Crash
Pyroclasm


These lists are by no means comprehensive.

There are also several different manabases that burn can use. The most stable mana base is obviously all mountains (ranging between 18 and 21 in most builds). There are also the possibilities of Wasteland. Wasteland will make your control matchup much better, but it is already solid. Fetches can help, but have been determined not useful unless there is a splash in the deck.

Two viable splashes that have been discussed thoroughly are the white splash and the blue splash.

The white splash is primarily for Disenchant out of the board, but can also support Lightning Helix

The blue splash is for Alter Reality, which hoses almost every card that shuts down burn.

The following cards are what this deck has the most problems with:

Chill- by far the biggest fear for this deck.

CoP: Red- harmful but can be played around

Arcane Laboratory/Rule of Law- cards that are not seen a lot, but do see play because of solidarity. These are not mentioned a lot but can be devastating as it essentially turns our clock off.

Any Life gaining cards- Essentially counterspells, and anything that is recurring is horrible- JITTE.

Absolute Law (anything pro-red)- if we cannot stop weenie hordes from certain decks then we will lose too quickly

Those are the most commonly played hate cards that I can think of. You can see why the white splash/blue splash is very popular, most of the cards can be disenchanted/ alter reality'ed.

I believe that with the correct attitudes (NO FLAMING) and insightful posts we can continue to build the deck into something very competitive. Hopefully the old burn thread can be saved, as there are hundreds of invaluable posts on there, that many people decided not to read, which is the main reason for it being locked. Please use discretion when posting, and try to find out information before asking questions

by StupidBurnKid
As a proud new member to the source, I would like to make my first post about a deck I have cradled in my arms like a sick puppy since the day of its inception; way back in the day when I first picked up a Magic card around fourth edition.

At one point I was playing cards like Hammer of Bogarden, Viashino Sandstalker, and Volcanic Dragon, recognizing red's strength of hitting fast and hard, using what little semblence of card advantage red has to its advantage. Since the days of Vision's Bogarden Phoenix and Suq'ata Lancer, which I loved as novelty cards more so than the power they brought to the deck, my red deck (you may note I refrained from making a claim to the type of deck it is, whether it be burn, sligh, or what have you, it has seen it all) has evolved into something that most would consider burn, and some would consider sligh. It has taken many forms over the years, but it has always been red, as I have always loved the philosophy of fire.

I recently T8'd with it in a legacy GPT as my third major constructed tournament appearance ever. One such appearance was a Champions block PTQ about a month ago and the second one being the Legacy Dual for Duals in Richmond only a matter of weeks ago, so as you can see, my knowledge of what you all deem the "metagame" is a pretty knew subject as my advanced knowledge of the game is slim. To go along with my competitive tournament appearances, I've entered a number of 1.5 tournaments here locally in Northern VA at The Lucky Frog over the past few months to dip my feet into the tournament scene, and get a taste for some of the inherrent strengths and weaknesses of the deck I've put to the test and through the ringer over the years.

I have come to the source in the hopes that you can put the spot light on some of these weaknesses so that I can further refine the deck into something that can stand up to the field. Yes, that's right, I am giving you a free pass to flame the hell out of me for playing Ball Lightning, to which I say... There's a reason I made it as far as I did in the GPT, but then again, a reason I might not have made the top spot. But this is why I'm here, to figure out exactly what needs to be done to make it go further, and also put out some ideas here for future builds.

With no further ado, I give you, my deck-

3ox Burn-
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Chain Lightning
4x Lava Spike
4x Magma Jet
4x Incinerate
4x Flamebreak
4x Fireblast
2x Cursed Scroll

12x Creatures-
4x Grim Lavamancer
4x Mogg Fanatic
4x Ball Lightning

18x Lands-
8x Mountains
4x Bloodstained Mire
4x Wooded Foothills
2x Barbarian Ring

SB-
4x Pyroblast (I just like the Ice Age BeB)
3x Flaring Pain
3x Pyrostatic Pillar
3x Flashfires
2x Pyrokinesis

The Philosophy-

Lightning Bolt- Um, moving right along.

Chain Lightning- I'd play 4o bolts if I could.

Lava Spike- For a total of 12, they're all going to the dome anyway.

Magma Jet- Less damage per mana, but when you see your opening hand and it includes two lands and a magma jet, it's good to be able to choose whether you want the uncastable Ball Lightning or the land that will allow you to cast the Flamebreak on turn three.

Incinerate- Instant three points of burn. I've had many requests for putting in volcanic hammer as well, but it just seems so sub par due to it's sorcery speed. Granted, the Lavamancer or the Ball which probably take it's place are no better in regards to being able to use mana during your oppponents turn, but, at least the mancer has its activated ability and the Ball has a better mana to damage ratio. (even if it hits only half the time, it still is tied)

Flamebreak- Main deck hate against gobbos or any other aggro deck that just begs for the board to be cleared. And it does more than just clear the board, it nails your opponent. Pyroclasm seems like such a dead card against Solidarity... Did you just cycle DoJ for 8?

Fireblast- Nothing like an instant, free, four points of damage in response to their kill card, or hell, just for the win.

Cursed Scroll- Pile Drivers, Goblin Kings, Meddling Kids, Silver Knights, Rune Red, you name it.

Mogg Fanatic- An extra answer to those pesky Lackeys, Piledrivers, Warchiefs and anything else with an ass of two in addition to being an extra point a turn against Solidarity, or that final point after they've pinged themselves with fetchlands and taken a few spells to the dome.

Grim Lavamancer- Reusable burn. Turns Chaliced bolts or incinerates into damage (if he's on the board turn one), and makes him a must kill against any controll deck. Can also chump in a pinch before flinging another two to the dome. (Also acts as fanatic bait for the MVP which is....)

Ball Lightning- One card, six damage. BAM! 2 points per mana, not optimal, but then again, it definately draws a response from the good ole solidarity player, whether it be a scowl or a high tide... Boo on humility, boo on silver knight! (but I have a plan for you too) And double boo on Ivory Mask! Does anybody really play that card?!?!

Fetch Lands- Thins the deck when necessary for that extra burn, fuels the Lavamancer for a turn two ping or the Barbarian Rings after the Mancer bites the dust.

Barbarian Ring- Silver knight? Soltari Emissary? Rune Red? Not to mention, (in the words of one such Elgin) its more damage than that mountain would ever do. Well said.

On to the Board-

Pyroblast- Seems pretty good when your average solidarity player will be able to wish for at least one ReB if they didnt side in 4 against you to go with their forces. Not to mention, being able to at least threaten a Blast when you send a Fireblast his way or when he goes for that final draw spell is worth every slot.

Flaring Pain- CoP Red? Solitary Confinement? I eat you for breakfast.

Pyrostatic Pillar- I hate solidarity. Last I heard, they don't like me either.

Flashfires- Well, white has the abiliity to lay waste to anything red, so, all's fair in love and war. Really shines against Wombat, less so against Landstill... but... those pesky plains...

Pyrokinesis- A little extra gobbo and DoJ hate. Can be sided in with the Flashfires and Flaring Pains against Wombat for the Flamebreaks and Balls.


I've been debating about this long and hard, and despite my desire to keep the Balls in, I really think a pariah lock or anything white game one is an auto loss without Flames of the Blood hand to smash some face. Sure, I have the Barb Rings and the Scrolls, but, they dont's show up enough and they can be slow. I also think it would make a white player think twice about riding pulse games two and three to victory. Not to mention, it would be one less creature for Humility and Swords to screw with.

One last thing... Does anybody play that awfull card Ivory Mask? Doesnt it stop solidarity dead in its tracks if it hasnt won by turn four? It makes me want to keep the balls in the side... or at very least, an anarchy or two. I'm not sure exactly if I need to have so much hate against the matchups my board is for, or if I should have some cards like Anarchy or Sulfuric Vortex....

So as you can see, I'm trying to keep in mind that a board is supposed to beat your bad matchups, but also not leave room for the possibility that something like Honden Enchantress may show up at a largely unknown meta (which for me, is nearly the entire field, which is why I am putting my deck into your all's' hands). I'm really not sure what my board needs to take into account, or if the cards that are included in it right now have the breadth to even deal with the matchups I AM aware of.

taken from a post by Doodlebird

Here's a run down of some generalities that I've been discussing elsewhere about burn decks (mostly obvious, but need to be stated).
a) keep mana curve very low - only a few 3 cast allowed, all else should be 1 and 2 , and heavy on the 1.
b) permanents are weakness and should be avoided if possible (things like mogg fanatic, seal of fire, etc. don't count as they can sac).
c) 98% (or more) of non land cards need to deal damage.
d) the more cards that deal damage to both player or creature the better.
e) almost all defense should be relegated to the SB.
f) there are core of cards that auto include - lighning bolt, fireblast, chain lightning, incinerate.
g) white and blue have the most common troublesome hosers.
h) combo can be very rough to beat first game, it will usually be a race.
i) also currently in the meta be prepared to face goblins and weenie MD.
j) the more instants the better.
k)repeat damage is hard to come by as permanents are a weakness here, especailly creatures.
l)card advantage is not happening here, magma jet helps fix draws a little, but topdecking is factor that generally happens in the is deck style.
m)there is the idea to pslash another color (usually white) from time to time, but once again it can create weakness by using no basic lands, and any that aren't also mountains weaken the fireblast potential, which is staple card.

Just a couple other things:

-To note, StupidBurnKid's build deviates a LOT from the "accepted" build (which is done nicely in bigbear's section where he gives my decklist from a week or two ago. :)), because it includes fetchlands, Barbarian Ring, Lavamancer, and Cursed Scroll. That's not to say that it's a bad deck, but it's not the way we've been going.

-Chill and Sphere of Law are the two worst cards for this deck to face. The former can be stopped by boarding enough REBs (I board 8), but the latter is really hard to stop. That's why I go in favor of Flaring Pain over Pithing Needle. That said, luckily, many people are not smart enough to play Sphere of Law.

-Pyrokinesis is not a good card. I've seen it mentioned a lot of times, but it's simply not good. You're never going to target 4 creatures (or even 3, usually), so, since it can't target players, it's always worse than 2 burn spells.

-Solidarity is a 45/55 matchup pre-board, and somewhere around 55/45 post-board. It's difficult, but if you play the deck right, you can win. I didn't exactly cover this in my post. The problem in g1 is that you have a bunch of pseudo-dead cards, like Flamebreak. After you board in, target your REBs directly at High Tide.

-This deck is INCREDIBLY vulnerable to noob-style deck changes, because of its simplicity. As much as I really hate to say it, there are certain requirements that you have to follow. It's a lot more rigid than it looks.

First of all, I would like to thank the mods for their hard work and the new thread. Now, to business.

@Lava Dart: This card can be good, but I don't like it in this deck. You will almost never be targeting creatures with this, so this is 2 cards for 2 damage. Shock would be better in this deck, as it's 1 card for 2 damage, and we aren't playing that either.

@Creatures: One of the only forms of card advantage this deck can generate is making your opponent's creature removal dead. Therefore, you want to provide as few targets as possible, which means no Grim Lavamancer or Ball Lightning. However, Mogg Fanatic is an exception, as it can sac to deal damage and is great vs. gobbos.

@Splashing: I support the white splash as not only does it give us access to Disenchant, it gives us Lightning Helix for the slot that in mono-red burn is constantly alternating between Flame Rift, Chain of Plasma, and Volcanic Hammer. I use 4x Plateau and 4x red fetchlands to support it. Should I use more fetchlands?

@Cursed Scroll: It seems to me like this would be the best choice for the slower, long-term win condition GRAH mentioned. Has anyone tested it?

@Absolute Law: I don't know why this scares bigbear, but it doesn't scare me. If goblins is taking the time to play this, than they're giving me time to go to the head.

@Rolling Earthquake: This has been proposed as a replacement for Flamebreak. My vote: No. There are almost no fliers that scare us that this can really hit, (If you have 6 mana to cast this for 5 to kill an Exalted Angel you've probably already lost anyways) and to deal more damage than Flamebreak, you have to spend 5 mana. The only time when this might be good is when you play Wastelands, which brings me to my next point.

@Wasteland: How has this been working for you, bigbear? It seems like it would weaken your mana base in most matchups for a gain in the Gro matchup to me, but I really don't know.

I can post my list if anyone wants, but I didn't think it was necessary here.

My build that I have been using is more of a RDW, than pure Burn. Anyhow I got together with some friends this weekend and played a few games. All were using no sideboard. Against each build, there were approximately 5 games played.

- All numbers are my win percentage.

WW (8 red creatures) + Angels: 60%
Fling Affinity: 80%
Goblins: 60%
Sui Black: 100%
High Tide: 20%

Overall, it performed around 64% which was all pre-board. Below was the build I used.

// Lands
14 Mountain
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Wooded Foothills

// Creatures
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Slith Firewalker
4 Ball Lightning
4 Mogg Fanatic

// Spells
4 Fireblast
4 Incinerate
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Magma Jet
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike

// Artifacts
3 Cursed Scroll

I don't like Wasteland in Burn or Sligh or RDW. I feel it weakens the mana base too much.

kabal, you're going into Sligh/RDW range on that one, and this thread is for Burn, not Sligh. (by the way, Angel Stompy, Fling Affinity, and especially Sui Black are not good gauntlet decks)

Slith Firewalker is poor for this deck. It deals damage at an incredibly slow rate. This deck can support so many better choices on turn 2 that I don't know why you don't. Same goes for Ball Lightning.

As for Cursed Scroll...I really want to play it, but it's so poor in the early game. I think the MD Sulfuric Vortex and a Chain of Plasma could be dropped for 2, but to be honest, I happen to hate the card.

@GRAH
Thanks for the feedback.

I know that it the build I provided is a variant of RDW like I stated above, just some (or maybe one) of the above post from another poster was a Sligh/RDW build as well.

I also aware that some of the decks I played against some aren't considered to be in the upper-most tier, but you play against what you can. No one had any optimal LandStill, Sensei, or even Keeper. I still thought might be interesting to show the results anyhow.

As for Cursed Scroll, yeah I don't really want to use 3, but 2 just doesn't cut in. I don't believe that there is a better card to replace it. On to Sith firewalker, he does come out a turn later and for additional mana than Pup, but he has performed so very much better for me. Not to mention, I just can't stand the synergy (Gempalm Incinerator my Pup for 5) I give me opponent by playing Jackal Pup. :p Ball Lightning as won me many games.

This was said at the beginning of the last Burn thread and will be reiterated in this one because it is important. This thread is for discussing Burn. It is not for the discussion of its cousins, RDW and Sligh. While similar, these two decks are idealogically different from Burn, in that one of Burn's core tenets is to avoid the use of any nonland permanents as a way of making many of the opponent's cards dead, hence providing virtual card advantage. This strategy is not inherent in Sligh or RDW, whcih tend to have a roughly equal balance of nonland permanents and burn spells. Therefore, in order to keep this discussion on track, do not post RDW or Sligh threads here. If you wish to discuss those archetypes, please start seperate threads for them. - Zilla

Quote:

---

3ox Burn-
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Chain Lightning
4x Lava Spike
4x Magma Jet
4x Incinerate
4x Flamebreak
4x Fireblast
2x Cursed Scroll

12x Creatures-
4x Grim Lavamancer
4x Mogg Fanatic
4x Ball Lightning

18x Lands-
8x Mountains
4x Bloodstained Mire
4x Wooded Foothills
2x Barbarian Ring

SB-
4x Pyroblast (I just like the Ice Age BeB)
3x Flaring Pain
3x Pyrostatic Pillar
3x Flashfires
2x Pyrokinesis

---

::Edit:: I recently switched Anarchy for Flashfires

As I have recently started seeing cards as how well they do against the various matchups the deck has the most trouble against, I'd like to discuss a few choices that I had made in my deck, and a few changes I would like to make for a tournament this coming weekend:

First and foremost, the most controversial talking point in the deck- the creature count. While it is true, the creature count is rather high (12 instead of the standard 4), contradicting one of the main advantages burn has against any deck with creature hate, I want to say (tentatively) my choices make up for the apparent drawbacks. The creature hate from Landstill (with swords and wrath), and R/G survival (with FTK), which we wreck, is not the end of the world. Oh no, diabolic edict takes out the Ball... oops, we win anyway.

I think the biggest threat I open up with the use of these select few creatures is StP. Even so, it makes the opposing player choose, take untold points of damage from the Mancer, or turn back the clock a turn or two and essentially give me a time walk by Swordsing the Ball.

Against any control deck, the mancer is a must kill when he can be up and running with the use of fetches on turn two. Against goblins, he's an incinerate with the ability to take out a lacky and do two points to your opponent (an extra turn one lackey answer), and has the abillity to kill anything on their side of the board. Anybody with spot removal, game one, will see the Mancer and sight him as an obvious target, drawing out the swords/fanatic so the Ball can connect on turn three. Mainly though, he turns an empty hand into a good thing (like the Scrolls), thus giving more longterm potential to the burn player.

While the Ball is more of a "liability", it does requires an added level of scrutiny when deciding to play it. It allows you to do a whopping six points with one card, that's unheard of, while nearly acting like a burn spell. Unlike browbeat, your opponent has no choice of taking the damage. The worst thing with Browbeat is that the opposing player is allowed to choose, allowing him to make the best worst choice given the situation. The Solidarity player will almost always give you the cards, making you waste a turn as they go off in your face turn four (if you're lucky enough to be in range) or five (which is more likely after you "waste" turn three) when you try to use those cards. If a vial is on one, or there is a fanatic in play, you don't drop it, obiously. You push the flamebreak button before you drop the ball. If a vial is on two, and there is a warchief in play (which there shouldnt be), you watch out for the sharpshooter. There's always next turn. The biggest thing it allows you to do is make better use of the slots available to you, giving you a much better chance to race any combo or aggro deck.

Added points
-Humility sucks, big time
-It could be argued 4 of each is overkill
-(mancer) Helps to smooth the mana curve, giving you something else to do turn two and beyond for one mana.
-(mancer) When he goes unchecked, he is card advantage, card advantage, card advantage.
-When your opponent can't be targeted (i.e. Ivory Mask, Solitary Confinement) a ball is your best friend

@ Flamebreak Main

I like it over Earthquake because it doesnt allow regeneration of Trolls, plus (a mute point) you get that extra point of damage without actually having to spend the extra mana. And having four of them is a must when you want to be nearly sure of drawing one game one against gobbos.

@ Sulfuric Vortex (I have Pyrostatic Pillar in my board)

I can't figure out what matchups its good against when you compare it to the pillar. Against Solidarity, it's slow to nearly useless. Against Goblins, it's still slow. Against rune red, you lose to your own vortex. It sure helps against control or R/G survival (Baeloff), but is it really necessary? I like the Pillar, but it only really seems to come in against Solidarity (never played against stax) Someone needs to help me out here with the pros/cons of each.

@ Pyrokinesis

It's instant speed four points of damage (for free). I like it alot, as it will allow you to ditch some sorcery speed burn to take out a warchief and a piledriver (definately a surprise you don't want to be left vulnerable to) or a cycled DoJ. What would replace it? Pithing needle? PoP? This is assuming we're not splashing for Alter Reality or Disenchant, which we don't really need to do because of the Anarchy (is Chill that big of a problem? Technically, it doesnt actually prevent you from casting anything).

@ Price main

Wow, what a dead card in the main. I can see it instead of Pyrokenisis in the Sideboard, but what matchups is it used against that we would need help with? Don't just tell me, any deck with non-basics.

@ Chain of Plasma

I like it, in theory. You can prepare for it by saving a land or two, turning them into burn, a two point spell into three, or by ditching that second Fireblast when you only have three lands. Plus, its more instant speed burn (why is Volcanic Hammer even considered when this is available?). I've never actually had any at my disposal, so, I've never actually tried it.

@ Scroll and Barbarian Rings

I think three of each is too many, as you don't actually want to see them early in the game. Neither of them actually do anything other than clog up your board early, so two seems ideal. The reason they're in there in the first place is that they can take out random pro red dorks with a jitte or a pariah strapped to their backs, or punch through a main-decked Rune-red. Otherwise, without some sort of answer in the main, you auto scoop. The single vortex is a nice idea, but I think the Scrolls have more versatillity/consistency while not actually damaging you. Besides, it's more damage than that mountain would ever do. The only problem with this is making you vulnerable to wastelands. But that's a mute point if you can hold it in your hand untill it's go time to fling your uncounterable burn.

@ Fork

I liked it too at one point. 3 seems too much, where they are terrible as a top deck, useless as the only card in your hand, but work nicely when you can threaten them as a counterspell. 2 seems optimal when you can have an actual burn spell in your hand instead... if you're going to play them at all. I like the scrolls in place of the Forks despite the "no permanents" rule.

What do you guys think about Flames of the Blood Hand if you don't like Ball Lightning? It beats through RuneRed, cancels out anything like renewed faith, jitte counters, or a baeloff, to give you some extra time to burn them out, and is an extra answer to a pariah lock or someone running pulse of the fields (which is definately a concern I've been grappling with). It does take away some of the pop you could have from the ball, but, it takes out a creature or two while giving more consistency (because the flames is much more likely to hit than the ball, against all matchups, to be honest) Oh, and its an instant.

So, chew on that and let me know what you think.

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Originally Posted by TheStupidBurnKid

@ Flamebreak Main

I like it over Earthquake because it doesnt allow regeneration of Trolls, plus (a mute point) you get that extra point of damage without actually having to spend the extra mana. And having four of them is a must when you want to be nearly sure of drawing one game one against gobbos.

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Um, yeah, the only reason people (see: bigbear) play Earthquake instead is because they play Wasteland. That's not a debated point.

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@ Sulfuric Vortex (I have Pyrostatic Pillar in my board)

I can't figure out what matchups its good against when you compare it to the pillar. Against Solidarity, it's slow to nearly useless. Against Goblins, it's still slow. Against rune red, you lose to your own vortex. It sure helps against control or R/G survival (Baeloff), but is it really necessary? I like the Pillar, but it only really seems to come in against Solidarity (never played against stax) Someone needs to help me out here with the pros/cons of each.

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It's good against Goblins with Jitte, which can spell trouble in g1. I am considering putting in Cursed Scroll instead, though.

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@ Pyrokinesis

It's instant speed four points of damage (for free). I like it alot, as it will allow you to ditch some sorcery speed burn to take out a warchief and a piledriver (definately a surprise you don't want to be left vulnerable to) or a cycled DoJ. What would replace it? Pithing needle? PoP? This is assuming we're not splashing for Alter Reality or Disenchant, which we don't really need to do because of the Anarchy (is Chill that big of a problem? Technically, it doesnt actually prevent you from casting anything).

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Instant 4...to creatures only...at the cost of two cards. I'd much rather have the option to aim at the head. Plus, why would we need cards vs. Goblins?

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@ Price main

Wow, what a dead card in the main. I can see it instead of Pyrokenisis in the Sideboard, but what matchups is it used against that we would need help with? Don't just tell me, any deck with non-basics.

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Have you been playing competent people? The only top deck other than Solidarity that doesn't play 8 or more permanent nonbasics is--gasp--this one. Goblins now plays 4x Port and 4x Wasteland along with their duals, and Fish and Gro, the two worst matchups, play so many duals that an average PoP deals 6-8 damage.

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@ Chain of Plasma

I like it, in theory. You can prepare for it by saving a land or two, turning them into burn, a two point spell into three, or by ditching that second Fireblast when you only have three lands. Plus, its more instant speed burn (why is Volcanic Hammer even considered when this is available?). I've never actually had any at my disposal, so, I've never actually tried it.

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It's always an Incinerate. Few competent players will copy it back, because then they'll be taking six. That's not good for them.

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@ Scroll and Barbarian Rings

I think three of each is too many, as you don't actually want to see them early in the game. Neither of them actually do anything other than clog up your board early, so two seems ideal. The reason they're in there in the first place is that they can take out random pro red dorks with a jitte or a pariah strapped to their backs, or punch through a main-decked Rune-red. Otherwise, without some sort of answer in the main, you auto scoop. The single vortex is a nice idea, but I think the Scrolls have more versatillity/consistency while not actually damaging you. Besides, it's more damage than that mountain would ever do. The only problem with this is making you vulnerable to wastelands. But that's a mute point if you can hold it in your hand untill it's go time to fling your uncounterable burn.

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Why do you need Ring vs. pro-red guys? There are no decks playing creatures with pro-red to fear, and it's not like it helps versus Jitte. It's RR for 2 damage that can't be done until you're about to kill your opponent.

And please learn how to spell "moot."

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@ Fork

I liked it too at one point. 3 seems too much, where they are terrible as a top deck, useless as the only card in your hand, but work nicely when you can threaten them as a counterspell. 2 seems optimal when you can have an actual burn spell in your hand instead... if you're going to play them at all. I like the scrolls in place of the Forks despite the "no permanents" rule.

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Fork is fading out of most people's decks.

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What do you guys think about Flames of the Blood Hand if you don't like Ball Lightning? It beats through RuneRed, cancels out anything like renewed faith, jitte counters, or a baeloff, to give you some extra time to burn them out, and is an extra answer to a pariah lock or someone running pulse of the fields (which is definately a concern I've been grappling with). It does take away some of the pop you could have from the ball, but, it takes out a creature or two while giving more consistency (because the flames is much more likely to hit than the ball, against all matchups, to be honest) Oh, and its an instant.

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It's been discussed, and it's not good. Browbeat is a good three-mana tradeoff because it can be efficient burn OR, in the mid/lategame, much needed card advantage. Flames is not a very efficient burn spell. Neither is Ball Lightning.

Just a quick point GRAH, I noticed in your build that you dropped a Mountain for another Chain. I tried this out in a tourney on Saturday (I'm a shameless netdecker) and it seemed that I got mana screwed out of more games than I've previously been seeing. How has this been working for you, as I quickly changed back to 19 lands and I've been happy ever since.

A card that I think should be discussed in Burn is Ankh of Mishra.
Here's the breakdown-

Pros:
Is a colorless source of damage
Owns fetchlands, which are played by most of the field
Hurts decks like Wombat and Landstill, which want land on the field and lots of it

Cons- Is a bad topdeck after turn two (but thats why we run 4x Magma Jet)
Hurts you too
May not deal any damage

I've been playing fetches in my R/W build, so Ankh is out for me.
I suppose it's really a metagame choice, if you expect to see a lot of wombat/landstill go for it, but if you expect to see mostly aggro, there will be better choices.

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I noticed in your build that you dropped a Mountain for another Chain

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Yeah, I tried dropping another mountain too, but was sorely disappointed. It's odd how much difference one land makes...

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Originally Posted by WiLdFiRe

Just a quick point GRAH, I noticed in your build that you dropped a Mountain for another Chain. I tried this out in a tourney on Saturday (I'm a shameless netdecker) and it seemed that I got mana screwed out of more games than I've previously been seeing. How has this been working for you, as I quickly changed back to 19 lands and I've been happy ever since.

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Really? I keep getting mana flooded. I'm not going to go down to 17 lands, but I keep drawing so many damn lands it gets tiring.

Whit3 Ghost:
Ankh doesn't really help any bad matchups, so I really don't see the point in playing it.

I want to start by adding the decklists that were on my original entry, just first to list mine, then 3 others that are varied but burn that are possibilities.
Mine :

4 lightning bolt
4 chain lightning
4 lava spike
4 fireblast
4 incinerate
4 magma jet
3 volcanic hammer
3 mogg fanatic
3 flamebreak
2 earthquake (as of 10/20 rolling earthquake)
2 cursed scroll
2 fork
19 mountains
2 barbarian ring
SB:
4 anarchy
4 red elemental blast
3 pyroblast
4 pyrostatic pillar

The Others:

4 lightning bolt
4 chain lightning
4 shrapnel blast
4 fireblast
4 lava spike
4 pyrostatic pillar
4 cursed scroll
4 ankh of mishra
4 pithing needle
19 mountains
3 lotus petal
side:
3 anarchy
2 sulfuric vortex
3 price of progress
4 REB
3 shattering pulse

next:
4 lightning bolt
4 chain lightning
4 fireblast
4 incinerate
4 mogg fanatic
4 magma jet
4 grim lavamancer
4 volcanic hammer
4 lava spike
4 chain of plasma
20 mountains
side:
3 anarchy
3 sulfuric vortex
3 pithing needle
2 shatterstorm
4 pyrostatic pillar


next:
4 lightning bolt
4 chain lightning
4 lava spike
4 magma jet
4 fireblast
4 incinerate
4 fire/ice
4 flame rift
3 price of progress
3 fork
2 earthquake
19 mountains
side:
2 earthquake
3 anarchy
2 sulfuric vortex
3 pithing needle
2 pillage
3 pyroblast

I have more content input as soon as I get little more time later.
it's all good
thanks and enjoy

Please don't make a post and then elaborate on it later. If you don't have the time, then please wait until you do before you just throw up decklists. Also, who the heck is "nad"? - Jander
nad-typo=and

To elaborate, my deck - the first list, is following most of the rules outlined (some which are from my post earlier), though I find that running the 2 scroll helps in the meta more than hinders the win. I also have found that the 2 (more would be a potential problem) rings can give that extra oomph to get the win and does once again help in the meta. The sweepers are very mcuh needed for the meta, though the number may lower by one, I'll see. The 21 land count affords all this fine and the jets (though reducing to 3 is something I will try) help fix it as well.
I will post more about the other decks that I listed that aren't mine in my future reply, though I also hope questions are initiated, as they aren't to elaborate to understand.

Doodlebird, your versions are considered strictly inferior to the mainstream. There's really no need to post them. You play either outdated or subpar stuff in all of them, and we've discussed a lot of this already. This thread was made so we wouldn't have to make so many redundant statements.

(At least you've stopped playing Mages' Contest)

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Originally Posted by GRAH

Doodlebird, your versions are considered strictly inferior to the mainstream. There's really no need to post them. You play either outdated or subpar stuff in all of them, and we've discussed a lot of this already. This thread was made so we wouldn't have to make so many redundant statements.

(At least you've stopped playing Mages' Contest)

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Well, I must say that a blanket statement like that is just pushing for an argumentative response, which from you I'm so shocked.
Yeah, haven't used any contest for a while.
Anyway only the first deck labeled "mine" is mine, the other three are list of others, hence coming under the title "other".
the fisrt one is one clutterd with permanents so as to not give minimal targets, but many, and all dealing damage (or being sac food). It's still a race and stops many deck types MD, the Sb is less important here.
The second is much the standard with inclution of lavamancer (though this is, me included, largely considered alibility more than help; along with ball lightning and scroll that also often show up in this thinking).
The third is almost all direct and uses some situational card that prove highly efficient damage when the meta works out right.
Both of the last two are more dependent on the SB for some matches in the meta (though the third mostly assumes to outpace it all).
it's all good
thanks and enjoy