How to best beat Aggro-control

Hi everyone,

As someone who has typically played unfair decks in legacy like High Tide and Belcher, I know all about the feeling of "well, do you have that random sideboard card or not?" that determines most games.

By contrast, however, the "fair" decks (which I think of as primarily the aggro-control grindy decks like Esper Stoneblade, Jund, Shardless Bug, Delver, etc) have one element going for them that makes them seem a little less fair. Specifically, because they hit you from a number of different angles with cards of different colors and casting costs, there seems to be no single card, deck, or strategy that just destroys them.

"Seems" is the operative word there, and so I turn to you, the MTGSource community full of brilliant minds who know this format better than I. So my question is this:

What single cards, specific decks, or certain strategies are best at attacking these fair aggro-control decks? What absolutely crushes them? How do you just dominate those types of decks?

Discuss.

I usually Krenko the shit outta them with billion goblin tokens.

Seriously now. If you just want to shut down any kind of deck, go for t1 trinisphere. That should help.

There is no way to "absolutely crush" these types of decks. That's why they are such popular deck choices. When played correctly, they have about a 50/50 matchup against the entire field. These decks run a variety of cards that give their pilots room to outplay their opponents. And they have answers to almost everything. You beat these decks the same way you beat any deck - know your 75, know who's the beatdown, and see the correct line of play.

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Originally Posted by Iamfishman

"Seems" is the operative word there, and so I turn to you, the MTGSource community full of brilliant minds who know this format better than I. So my question is this:

What single cards, specific decks, or certain strategies are best at attacking these fair aggro-control decks? What absolutely crushes them? How do you just dominate those types of decks?

Discuss.

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1. Play Blue based combo that would allow you to run more counters.
2. Play artifact hate such as chalice of the void, Trinisphere, defense grid to protect your combo.
3. Play combo that also screws with non-basic land, such as painter stone (imperial painter). In this demonstration, the combo player destroyed Shardless BUG in 20 seconds:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DhfszFhjyuE

Vs Tempo, you basically just try to get to phase two of the game. Dont walk into Stifles on your fetch lands, fetch basics if possible, get an on board presence. Thats what that matchup is all about. On board presence. Vs BGx, and Blade variants, you need a sort of card advantage to beat them. This is why Jace and Liliana excel in mid range mirrors. Planeswalkers, +1 or more card draw (Stoneforge is +1 technically), recurring threats (Bloodghast, punishing Fire, Life From the Loam) all are good ways to gain an advantage in a mid range mirror. Also Deed. That card rocks. Like has been said, generally there is no single card that just hoses them like Force of Will vs Belcher. It is all about being a good player and making the correct lines of play.

If you want to beat these "fair" aggro-control decks, the best way to do that is to play one of time, that is the best in the late game, like Jund and remove all the combo hate in the deck to have the best edges in the mirror. playing esper deathblade without FOW and with additional removal could be good for example:

4 BBE
4 Dark confidant
4 tarmogoyf
4 deathrite shaman

4 liliana of the veil

4 punishing fire
4 abrupt decay
3 lightning bolt
2 diabolic edict
2 hymm to tourarch
1 maelstrom pulse
1 sylvan library

4 grove of the burnwillos
4 verdant catacombs
3 wasteland
1 forest
2 swamp
2 bayou
3 badlands
2 bloodstane mire
1 wooded foothills

This deck is clearly terrible against any form of combo, and once you hedge against that you end up with one of the list, but better then this you probably can't do against these kind of decks.

So, the way to beat these fair deck is to play 1 of them and to scale a little bit better in the late game with more 2-for 1 trades and spot removal, which will always make your combo matchup worse but you can't make both better. At the same time, you can make your combo matchup better but then these decks willl become less good matchups.

Tempo players LOVE to play against atrittion based decks like e.g. Pox.
RUG: twelve creatures, set of Stifles and Wastelands.
Pox: seven gorillion removal, twenty Swamps. (I own some.)

Pox and Dredge comes to mind against these decks. In addition, Legacy Merfolks might also come in handy. Basically either go YOLO or just plainly ignore their plays, and making sure you get yours to stick better. Do not be too careful, but at the same time do not be too careless as well.

4 Veteran Explorer and 4 SB Leyline of Sanctity + X SB Carpet of Flowers are your best friends.

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Originally Posted by Bed Decks Palyer

Tempo players LOVE to play against atrittion based decks like e.g. Pox.
RUG: twelve creatures, set of Stifles and Wastelands.
Pox: seven gorillion removal, twenty Swamps. (I own some.)

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Haha, very funny and very true! :D

I hate it when my thousand dollar-"best deck of the format" loses against a pile of Swamps, Smallpox and Liliana.

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Originally Posted by Purgatory

Haha, very funny and very true! :D

I hate it when my thousand dollar-"best deck of the format" loses against a pile of Swamps, Smallpox and Liliana.

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To add insult to an injury, they either kill with Nether Spirit so you suffer for nine turns, or they put in play 5/5 flying dude that is out of Bolt's reach and delves your Goyfs so you may just stare helplessly.

http://media.wizards.com/images/magi...8_fireball.jpg

Tagging Vidi for #value.

Fair decks' weakness is that they are fair. Their cards are pretty much all 1-for-1 even-powered cards. Nothing weak, but nothing OP either. Weather their disruption, kill their few threats and survive long enough to get unfair cards/card advantage engines online and they lose. Or play Chalice @ 1.

Thalia, Guardian of Thraben

Seriously, just about everything.

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Originally Posted by Finn

Thalia, Guardian of Thraben

Seriously, just about everything.

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Gempalm Incinerator

/troll

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Originally Posted by TsumiBand

Gempalm Incinerator

/troll

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Implying Goblins is a fair deck.


On a more serious note:

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By contrast, however, the "fair" decks (which I think of as primarily the aggro-control grindy decks like Esper Stoneblade, Jund, Shardless Bug, Delver, etc) have one element going for them that makes them seem a little less fair. Specifically, because they hit you from a number of different angles with cards of different colors and casting costs, there seems to be no single card, deck, or strategy that just destroys them.

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The local definition of "fair" is often quoted as "fair decks pay for their spells, unfair decks do not", and while I like to subscribe to that definition, it would put decks like Death and Taxes on the unfair side, since it plays Aether Vial. My own personal definition of fairness has to do with interactivity, and generally, unfair decks tend to not want any interactivity at all (combo decks mainly), while fair decks have elements in them that are inherently interactive, specifically creatures that do combat.

The decks you mention are fair according to my personal definition, but they are slightly unfair when looking at the "pay for your shit"-definition, since Stoneblade plays Stoneforge Mystic into Batterskull, Jund and Shardless BUG has Cascade and Delver plays with "free" countermagic. That said, none of the decks are trying to do anything really broken by Legacy standards.

My point with all the rambling is simply that "fair" and "unfair" are undefined and arbitrary in most cases, and not a good stepping stone for a discussion.

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What single cards, specific decks, or certain strategies are best at attacking these fair aggro-control decks? What absolutely crushes them? How do you just dominate those types of decks?

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Like in most cases, it's hard to nail all of these offenders with a single answer. Most of the decks in question have a hard time handling a resolved Blood Moon, or a Chalice on 1, the graveyard-dependent Delver tempo decks can in some games roll over to a resolved Rest in Peace, most of the decks will just die to Nic Fit, Pox and other otherwise tier 2-decks that are in some ways even more grindy than themselves. Play with Veteran Explorers if you really want to beat Canadian Threshold et al, but be prepared to lose to combo then.

That, or just come over to the dark side and sleeve up some Delvers of your own :) We have pretty intense mirror matches, you know!

Wait, so Goblins can be Tier not-1 and still be unfair? Because it has 'free spells'?

This is why I hate the fair/unfair thing so hard in Magic. Fairness scales to the format. Is Affinity 'unfair'? How about Madness?

I feel like this is a misappropriation of the word 'fair'. I now understand how conservatives feel about the marriage argue.

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Originally Posted by TsumiBand

Wait, so Goblins can be Tier not-1 and still be unfair? Because it has 'free spells'?

This is why I hate the fair/unfair thing so hard in Magic. Fairness scales to the format. Is Affinity 'unfair'? How about Madness?

I feel like this is a misappropriation of the word 'fair'. I now understand how conservatives feel about the marriage argue.

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I think the generally accepted thing is that an unfair deck is a fast combo deck, winning with extremely powerful spells like Derping in a T2-3 griselbrand or emrakul, or Tendrilsing your opponent on T2 or 3. A fair deck is a deck that is trying to play a longer game, where they are just casting their spells or using engines of some kind to gain an advantage. I would say that Playing a T1 Vial so you can cheat in a 2 drop for free on turn 3 is pretty fucking fair.

If by any definition, non food chain recruiter goblins is considered an unfair deck, then that definition is probably wrong.

Fair is all in the mind. It's only about how one feels. To apply an objective (list-based?) criteria on fairness is tough indeed.

There can be fair games that end in a few turns. Or unfair games that go to time.