Chalice and missed triggers
Hi all, hope to get an answer here.
Player A:
Chalice set at 1.
Blood moon in play.
Player B:
Casts Nature's Claim targeting Moon.
Player A misses trigger. Player B says nothing.
Player B states moon is destroyed.
Player A puts moon in graveyard and gains 4 life.
http://archive.wizards.com/Magic/mag...ly/feature/233
Apparently a trigger is considered missed if it falls into an awareness category listed in the above source.
The category Player B quotes is that it is regarding a choice for Player A when it goes on the stack.
Player A states that this "choice" refers to having to make a decision when something goes on the stack (i.e. deciding to reveal top card when counterbalance triggers) and since Chalice is mandatory, we should reference the quote "You aren't allowed to miss your own triggered abilities, and your opponent isn't required to remind you about them." and "If a triggered ability is forgotten (or any other game error is made) and the error is discovered later, players should alert the judge."
So, if it isn't noticed until after the game is over, is it considered bad form, or at worst cheating, if player B allows the moon to be destroyed knowing that the trigger was missed or is the moon destroyed because this scenario falls into one of the categories of "trigger awareness"?
Appreciate it.
Re: Chalice and missed triggers
I'm pretty sure if the owner of Chalice misses the trigger, then they miss the trigger "boo hoo" and nothing is countered.
Re: Chalice and missed triggers
Re: Chalice and missed triggers
Yea... If the controller of Chalice misses his own trigger... Too bad for him/her.
You also have to watch your opponent casting spells into his own chalice. I've caught a dude trying to thoughtseize me when he had his own Chalice on 1.
Re: Chalice and missed triggers
Your opponent is responsible for all of their own triggers. If they miss a trigger, as stated earlier, "boo hoo". Player B is not responsible for Player A's lack of action. Provided Player A is given a chance to acknowledge their trigger, it will be considered missed. You can't, for example, draw your card for the turn like you have the fastest hands in the West and then try to say your opponent missed their Sulfuric Vortex trigger, but Player A had to physically and personally put Blood Moon into the graveyard and that works just fine.
However, while the above is normally true for most scenarios, it's worth noting that there are two exceptions.
One is that a player cannot knowingly miss their own trigger. If, for example, Player A had noticed the trigger, they could not weigh the pros and cons of Nature's Claim's resolution. It's one thing to miss a trigger. But if the controlling player knowingly lets the Nature's Claim resolve, that is cheating and grounds for serious action.
The other is that a player, knowingly or not, cannot cast a spell through their own Chalice of the Void. It will never be treated as a missed trigger and could be construed as cheating.
Re: Chalice and missed triggers
Quote:
Originally Posted by
CutthroatCasual
I'm pretty sure if the owner of Chalice misses the trigger, then they miss the trigger "boo hoo" and nothing is countered.
When answering questions in the Rules forum, please be 100% sure you're correct, and if at all possible reference the appropriate rule(s).
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Octopusman
http://archive.wizards.com/Magic/mag...ly/feature/233
Apparently a trigger is considered missed if it falls into an awareness category listed in the above source.
The category Player B quotes is that it is regarding a choice for Player A when it goes on the stack.
Player A states that this "choice" refers to having to make a decision when something goes on the stack (i.e. deciding to reveal top card when counterbalance triggers) and since Chalice is mandatory, we should reference the quote "You aren't allowed to miss your own triggered abilities, and your opponent isn't required to remind you about them." and "If a triggered ability is forgotten (or any other game error is made) and the error is discovered later, players should alert the judge."
So, if it isn't noticed until after the game is over, is it considered bad form, or at worst cheating, if player B allows the moon to be destroyed knowing that the trigger was missed or is the moon destroyed because this scenario falls into one of the categories of "trigger awareness"?
Appreciate it.
Note that the articles generally don't get updated as the rules change, so you really want to look at the most recent version of the Infraction Procedure Guide itself.
The relevant category of triggers is still "A triggered ability that causes a change in the visible game state (including life totals) or requires a choice upon resolution:" though, because countering a spell causes a change in the visible game state.
"The controller must take the appropriate physical action or make it clear what the action taken or choice made is before taking any game actions (such as casting a sorcery spell or explicitly moving to the next step or phase) that can be taken only after the triggered ability should have resolved." Note controller, not owner - they aren't always the same, though in most cases such as Chalice they are.
Since the controller of Chalice didn't notice the trigger before moving on to the next game action (resolving Claim), they missed the Chalice trigger. The trigger doesn't happen and there's no penalty for anyone (the controller only gets a Warning if the trigger is detrimental).
Like iamajellydonut alluded to, "you can't miss your own triggers" means that if you remember them, you can't pretend to forget about them - that's Cheating. Only your opponent can allow you to miss triggers if they see them and you don't.
Re: Chalice and missed triggers
If you are an owner of a trigger that is deemed detrimental to you, then not only it's a missed trigger, a judge will also do an investigation on you. As in, ask you to get up and have a "talk" on the side with you.
Example:
1. you're the owner of Chalice of the Void, you set it at 1 counter, you play a spell with CMC of 1, then you missed the Chalice trigger and the spell somehow resolved.
2. you're the owner of Sulfuric Vortex, you missed its trigger on your own upkeep to deal 2 damage to yourself.
Re: Chalice and missed triggers
How do judges determine if you honestly forgot your own trigger or if you did it intentionally to benefit you? Can they probe inside your brain to determine your intentions?
Like, when I play Chalice @ 1 and the opponent casts a Deathrite Shaman into it to test me to see if I remember the trigger - if I forget the trigger the Deathrite resolves, no questions asked, the judge doesn't harass anyone. But if I cast a Cabal Therapy with my own Chalice @ 1 in play, and maybe I honestly forgot or maybe I didn't (is there any way to truly tell?) there will be an immediate investigation or even warning/game loss?
And why is it that you can fail to remember the trigger when opponent plays something into it intentionally, and that's OK for everyone, but if the opponent fails to remember that Chalice is in play when you yourself cast a 1cc to "test" him, then it's very bad for you to do that? I think it should cut both ways.
If opponents are allowed to "test" me when I have Chalice in play and try to resolve stuff through it, then I should be able to test my opponent and try to resolve stuff through my own Chalice!
Re: Chalice and missed triggers
Quote:
Originally Posted by
MGB
How do judges determine if you honestly forgot your own trigger or if you did it intentionally to benefit you? Can they probe inside your brain to determine your intentions?
Yep. Some people call it "asking you questions". Warnings are also tracked to look at patterns of behavior. Bertoncini's most recent suspension was based on a pattern of warnings, not getting caught red-handed.
Quote:
But if I cast a Cabal Therapy with my own Chalice @ 1 in play, and maybe I honestly forgot or maybe I didn't (is there any way to truly tell?) there will be an immediate investigation or even warning/game loss?
You always get a warning if it's your trigger and it's detrimental ("The controller of a missed triggered ability receives a Warning only if the triggered ability is usually considered detrimental for the controlling player."). If it's your third warning for a Game Play Error, that upgrades into a Game Loss, yes. If the judge determines that you're Cheating, there's only one penalty for Cheating - disqualification.
Quote:
And why is it that you can fail to remember the trigger when opponent plays something into it intentionally, and that's OK for everyone, but if the opponent fails to remember that Chalice is in play when you yourself cast a 1cc to "test" him, then it's very bad for you to do that? I think it should cut both ways.
Because Wizards of the Coast decided it was better for the game to not make opponents responsible for pointing out other people's triggers. There's ample reading about the decision you can find on the internet.
