[Deck] UR Landstill

Well…I don’t expect this revision will earn me any price, but I just have to use CaNG as a platform for promoting my pet deck.

1. Introduction
I started a thread about this deck in the open forum (link) and learned that there is practically no knowledge about the deck and its premise.
You can test yourself on that: If you find yourself wanting to suggest a combination of both splashes (making the deck Uwr) at any point while reading this, you should read that thread and then come back here. Otherwise you will do fine.

To prevent at least the most prominent misconception about the deck: UR Landstill is not a control deck.
The deck uses a limited ability to control, conceded, but its idea is about role shifts.
A red splash brings the ability to actually play beatdown when wanted/demanded.
You may say:
”Beatdown? With Manlands? The slowest kill ever?”
Well, yes…but obviously you don’t have to go the long route of tapping a factory ten times in any match at all. Your opponents will fetch/force or may use life in other ways…and after all you still have 20 points of direct damage in your deck.
Which leads us to another important point. Pure control strategies (aka UW Landstill, Rabid Wombat, MBC, Rifter) often suffer from the fact that they run narrow control choices (aka mass removal) which are then found dead in various matchups.
Limiting this factor to 4 slots (and even beyond that as you will see) contributes a lot of versatility.

I want to address a second misconception:
My list’s current mana base looks like this:

• 4 Mishra’s Factory
  3 Faerie Conclave
  4 Volcanic Island
  2 Polluted Delta
  2 Bloodstained Mire
  2 Island
  1 Mountain
  4 Wasteland

You may ask if this isn’t…a bit risky. After all there are only 13 sources of U, only 7 sources of R, only 4 ways to get a basic Island and only 3 to get a basic Mountain.
That is true, but intended. The deck has horribly high mulligan rate (expect one mulligan per match).
If you test the deck, you will see how easy it is to be flooded during midgame (not to talk about endgame) even with that low number of lands.
This deck is perfectly fit for stalling, rapid “cycling” and top top deck/attrition wars as well. Don’t limit that ability by raising the land count to 24 or something.
I won tournaments even without that second island. I just keep it cause 3 basics is a key value imo and extremely important in the rare cases you are faced with B2B.
When you test the deck you will see that the trouble with the mana base is very limited to the first 2 or three land drops.
I have to admit that you have to accept risk quite frequently (I usually keep every hand with single blue source and either a Brainstorm or a second source). But…
1. I guarantee you that the deck’s top deck abilities make up for it.
2. I will come up with a solution later…just wait a sec and enjoy my silly writings.

Its time for a list, isn’t it?

2. Cardchoices and a first list

• 4 Nevinyrral’s Disk
  4 Standstill
  2 Thirst for Knowledge
  4 Brainstorm
  4 Force of Will
  4 Counterspell
  4 Repeal
  4 Fire / Ice
  4 Lightning Bolt
  2 Slice and Dice
  2 Crucible of Worlds
  
  4 Mishra’s Factory
  3 Faerie Conclave
  4 Volcanic Island
  2 Polluted Delta / Flooded Strand
  2 Bloodstained Mire / Wooded Foothills
  2 Island
  1 Mountain
  4 Wasteland
  
  SB:
  6 BEB / Hydrobalst
  3 REB / Pyroblast
  4 Phyrexian Furnace
  2 Flashfires

This is the conversion list I used to introduce Repeal, Disrupting Shoal and Thirst for Knowledge to the deck. The final goal is another one, but I used this list to try if some obvious problems may be solved.
Well…most of you know that Manlands are for attacking and Standstill draws you cards…so I will limit my chatter on the less obvious choices:

Repeal:
Generally the card acts as a MD Artifact and Enchantment removal, that is not dead in the majority of matchups (where Artifacts and Enchantments are not important).
Actually I dismissed the deck the day after Philly. I was playing NQG myself and knew the deck becoming DTB would be horrible news for the simple reason of MD Needle entirely ruining you.
But I sweared to revive the deck once I see an acceptable way to deal with Pithing Needle. Repeal is that way. Most of the time you want to return a Needle just for one turn. The Deck plays beatdown against NQGw anyway, so attacking with Manlands once is just fine. I don’t have to tell you about the interaction of Needle Repeal and Disk…
Anyways…there are plenty of other very valid targets. Repealing Vial is just fine.
But I also Repealed Creatures of any size (including full grown Exalted Angels) with much success. Repealing a Werebear in a Topdeck War is an awesome play.

Disrupting Shoal
Of course I used Counterspell and Mana Leak before, but they both suck. Counterspell is not sufficiently supported by the base. Mana Leak just ruins your late game top deck abilities against any aggressive strategy.
I cannot say much about it. It took me sleepless nights to gather the guts to play that card, but in retrospect it seems obvious to me. Disruptiong Shoal is just infinetly superior to Counterspell/Mana Leak.

Thirst for Knowledge > Fact or Fiction
Well…I was pretty much annoyed by FoF once I started to realize I used it for only two purposes. 1. Tutor me a Burn Spell to kill my Op. 2. Tutor me a FoW/Shoal to prevent myself from dying (try this with Counterspell btw).
Usually I reavealed 5 cards of which only 2 were of any relevance at all, of witch again I actually had to pick 1 no matter what my op does with those 5 cards. So for the most part FoF is a very annoying and ineffective test on your Op’s skill.
In addition FoF was just horrible against combo for the reasons of a) being expensive b) doing nothing about the fact that I hold 2 entirely useless artefacts in my hand.
So…the pros of TfK are obvious, but what about the cons?
As soon as I started to test the card I had to realize how futile my doubts have been. Usually you have plenty of cards not needed in the current situation – lands, lands with CoW in play, Countermagic, when the trash is already on the board, almost any artifact in almost any combo matchup, lands…did I mentions lands?
Thirst for Knowledge offers you an insane amount of Card Quality at an acceptable speed, greatly improves any combo Matchup and has the same (if not a bigger) synergy with CoW as FoF had.

BEB > Pyroclasm
I played pyroclasm myself… and i hate me for doing so. Whoever wants to board the card against Vial Goblins has no idea about how the deck works, which does not exclude actually playing the deck (look at me).
Pyroclasm is no answer to Ringleader, no answer to Warchief, no answer to Lackey, no answer to fat.
It is only an answer to either-I-am-an-insane-scrub-or-the-deck-hates-me-but-I-did-not-draw-any-of-my-sixteen-other-removal-cards-yet.
Usually Pyrolasm kills one Goblins (maybe 2 including a Matron).
And it does that for R1 or RR1 or RRR1…and as a Sorcery…
…its horribly bad against Goblins alone – trust me on that one – not to mention Burn which is one of the Decks most horrible matchups.

Phyrexian Furnace > Tormod’s Crypt
The title may be irritating. I don’t want to doubt Crypt’s advantages, but want to clear a common misconception. Nevi Disk is an expensive tool and its primary use is against random decks which want to beat or lock you within a few turns (that includes the whole pallete white beatdown decks btw). Against a broad variety of decks I board out disk completely. This includes pretty much every deck with a yard that matters (including NQG and Rift). When you play the deck you will see, that you draw through it at a suprising speed. So 4 Phyrexian Furnaces gather quickly and will not be removed by you (unless you are in trouble and want that card).

Flashfires
A short word: 2 are more than enough. It is not totally uncommon that my post board games against Rift/Wombat end with them being dead with a library of 30 cards and me being alive with a library of 20 cards. “Cycling” faster than I-cycle.dec says: 2 are enough.


3. Matchups & Boarding advice

NQGw / 4c Threshold – your role: aggro-control
I tend to accept a beatdown role as much as possible. This is determined by them having more and harder permission (usually 10 including some Counterspells). Ain for their W with your wastes – removed Manlands are a bad thing. If you are still healthy when CoW shows up, you win with recurring threats and burn to the dome. Don’t waste your permission on their threats or on resolving a disk if it is not absolutely necessary. Most of the time Disk will help you as an expensive Hymn to Tourach.
Post board games are dominated by saving Permission even more. Those games are about Geddon and CoW more than anything else.
Boarding advice: -4 Disk, +4 Phyrexian Furnace (you may swap some red blasts for singles of Repeal, Shoal and Standstill if you like to – depends on Op’s build too).
MatchWin%: ~55%

NQGr – not sufficiently tested yet.
I can’t tell you anything about what to do yet, but am pretty much frightened about that matchup.
MatchWin%: ~40% (or even lower)

VialGoblins your role: control
This usually is a long war of attrition. Simply keep their board empty and wait for them to get flooded, which will last much longer then for other beatdown decks cause VialGoblins can make respectable use of a large amount of Lands in play.
Bring in a CoW at least end game to get rid of their Mana- (and beatdown-) denial.
I cannot exactly tell you when to force a Vial and when not. I force a first (or second) turn Vial in about 40% of all cases and count it as a disadvantage in the others.
A second Vial (especially post stabilization) usually should not be countered – just answer the threats it produces. Obviously the amount of remaining Ringleaders has to be taken into account during these decisions.
In the end VialGoblins will find themselves with a horrible pile to topdeck with (>50% lands, Fanatics, Vials etc.) while you will have the best chances on topdecking (~40% answers, ~30% draw/search). Ringleaders are their only chance once you did at least partly stabilize.
Boarding advice: +6 BEB/Hydroblast, -4 Shoal, -2 Disk (playing) / -2 Standstill (drawing)
MatchWin%: ~60%

Rift / Wombat your role: beatdown
Wombat is pretty much a bye. Even if they stabilize (which they rarely do) you have all the time in the world to find the final burn spells. Rift is much more dangerous for two reasons: 1. They have a much faster kill. 2. they have Slice and Dice, which is the most annoying card ever in this matchup, cause it keeps you from savely casting a Standstill over a Conclave. Usually Flashfires are easily found and bring the win.
Boarding Advice: -6 Repeal/Disk/Standstill (depending on taste – I usually keep all Standstills), +4 Phyrexian Furnace, +2 Flashfires
MatchWin% - Wombat: ~80%, Rift: ~65% (or higher)
It should be clear that you have to play fast to not run into an insane amount of 1-1’s…

Deadguy Ale your role: aggro-control
This is simple: Get Lands on the board and keep them. Try to get rid of your hand with card parity – you will have the better topdecks. Of course this is random as games vs. Deadguy Ale/Suicide always are. Sometimes they will screw you and beat you to death with a single scroll. But usually reaching a Disk or a CoW wins you the game.
Boarding advice: keep the MD as it is.
Note: Most of their SB choices are pretty pointless anyway (I tested against 3 Withered Wretched MD, which would be the only good one that is common). If they have Chains for some reason, that is bad news though.
MatchWin%: ~60%

Solidarity your role: beatdown
Even with that low land count and TfK this is obviously a bad matchup. With some luck (not necessarily much) you may win that 2-0 on occasion, but usually game 1 goes to them without much argument. Post board games are better but still not much fun.
Boarding advice: -4 Disk, -2 CoW, -1 SnD, +4 Phyrexian Furnace, +3 REB/Pyroblast
MatchWin%: ~30%

Grahams your role: control (pre board), beatdown (post board)
Usually they cannot win game 1. They may get Keeper activated, but Salvager has not the best chances at living, mana denial is a problem for them too etc.
Game 2 they will bring Colossus instead of the combo, which is a huge improvement.
I advice you to board Furnace anyway – if it is just for Therapy. But usually you have two chances on beating and burning them while you occasionally tap that Colossus.
Boarding advice: -4 Disk, +4 Phyrexian Furnace
MatchWin%: I am not very sure about this (limited data): ~50%

Burn your role: well…there is only one direction….
Pre board this is a frightening matchup. But 6 Blasts are a huge improvement. Try to hardcast Shoal and FoW End Game, when possible.
Boarding advice: -4 Disk, -4 Repeal, -2 SnD, +6 BEB/Hydroblast, +4 Phyrexian Furnace (you may keep SnD over Furnace - a question of taste)
MatchWin%: ~55%

SA your role: beatdown
If SotF hits the table, you will loose within a few turns. So you have to counter SotF, Witness, Choke (or other hate post board). It is obvious that their creatures are problematic even without survival. Therefor it is important to play as aggressive as you can. Any Wasteland should by used instantly, any mana accelerant should be burned immediately. But you should not miss the point when they have partly stabilized and have 4 mana sources on the table. Burning any more accelerants obviously become futile at that point.
Boarding advice: +4 Phyrexian Furnace, +? Blue blasts, -? XY – this is dependent on their build and attitude towards the matchup so much, that I cannot give you any proper advice.
MatchWin%: ~40% (note that you will smash any other SotF based deck easily, no matter if it is RecSur, Weldsur, ATS or FEB)

WW / BDW / AS
These matchups are easy. Pro:Red usually matters much less than people expect.
Just counter any removal on your Disk or an occasional Geddon. There are situations, when I weant to counter a Priest but they are rare. BDW is of course more dangerous due to their direct damage potential.
Boarding advice: dependent on built
MatchWin%: 65% (less against BDW)


4. Bloodshed…so far…
I managed to play only three events with lists close to the above yet:

• Aurich 02/25/06 - 2.0.1.1 (1st of 11)
  Hamburg 03/03/06 - 2.0.2.0 (6th of ~20)
  Iserlohn 03/05/ 06 - 4.2.1.0 (9th of 37)

This adds to a total of…
-8 wins:

• UR Landstill mirror: 1-0 (one of my older lists netdecked and modified)
• Rift: 2-0 (standard built)
• Goblins: 2-1 (that list included Bolts, which was bad for me)
• Random Wizards: 1-0 (I did not like the guy at all, so I stalled the 1st game and killed him after 45 minutes)
• Random WW: 2-1 (his threats were so high in CC that I lost game one cause I tried to play control, then killed him twice in 10 minutes swiftly (he went 0.6.0.1 btw))
• MonoB Sui: 2-0 (solid player, obviously subpar deck)
• Scepter Chant: 2-0 (I raped him as to be expected)
• NQGw: 2-0 (standard built)

-4 draws:

• NQGw: i.d. with a team mate (standard built), when we played for fun, I won 2-1 (lost to an untimely Geddon game 2)
• T2 Zoo: 1-1 (Burning-Tree Shaman was bad news game 1)
• WUBS: 1-1 (another team mate – we played that match despite the matchup is horrible for me – I screwed him game 1)
• Solitaire: i.d. with Windux who gave me an i.d. during GPTs (when we played for fun I won 2-0)

-2 losses:

• Solidarity: 0-2 (This was Lukas, one of Germany’s two best Solidarity players imho, both my hands were subpar, game 2 he decked me in my upkeep, being at 3 life, in response to Lightning Bolt)*
• NQGr-DryadSligh Hybrid /w Ascetics: 0-2 (Game 1 a Rushing River (!?) for a tapped Disk and a CoW brings the tempo for the win, Game two I have CoW and 2 Factories against a Troll Ascetic, both of us below 10 life, I topdecked bad (and played like a retard in addition)).
  
  *Peek was just awesome btw.

5. The final Goal…
I mentioned the above list is just a conversion list, did I? I already mentioned that the deck’s biggest con is its fragile mana base. Actually the inclusion of TfK opens up the possibility to do a thing I intended for a long time: the inclusion of Chromatic Sphere without making the deck suck. Currently in testing is the following list:

• 3 Nevinyrral`s Disk
  4 Force of Will
  3 Disrupting Shoal
  3 Repeal
  4 Standstill
  4 Brainstorm
  3 Thirst for Knowledge
  4 Fire/ Ice
  4 Lightning Bolt
  2 Slice and Dice
  2 Crucible of Worlds
  
  3 Chromatic Sphere
  4 Mishra’s Factory
  3 Faerie Conclave
  4 Volcanic Island
  2 Polluted Delta
  2 Wooded Foothills
  2 Island
  1 Mountain
  3 Wasteland
  
  SB:
  6 BEB / Hydroblast
  3 REB / Pyroblast
  4 Phyrexian Furnace
  2 Flashfires

Most of the testing results indicate an awesome improvement, but tournament data is yet missing. I am yet unable to decide, which of the two lists I want to submit.
I will try to play Bremen 03/16/06 and Hamburg 03/17/06 and then make a decision.

Btw: Tao just told me that he has won Hamburg 03/10/06 with the deck 3.0.1.0 (winning against: 1x random, 1x NQGr, 1x SA; playing a draw against 1x RecSur).
I want to mention this to prove, that the deck is very well capable of winning the negative matchups, if piloted correctly.


Of course i tried to cut this as short as possible. Feel free to ask me for things i did not mention. :)

reserve post

You never know when you will need one...

It's nice to see a serious exploration of UR Landstill, especially since there is no major Blue-based control in the metagame. While I have never played UR Landstill, I have a fair amount of experiance playing against it, since the best player at my local tourny played it for a long time. Based on his list, I have a few suggestions.

Isochrone Scepter: A little worse, since you can't put a counter on it, but it's main function would be to hold a burn spell, especially Fire/Ice. This improves your ability to race your opponent, and Ice can let you tap that pesky Silver Knight, or Soltari Priest all day long, and draw cards in the process.

Grim Lavamancer: Also great for a damage race. Has synergy with TfK. Vulnerable to removal, but it he jst takes instant-speed removal that otherwise would have hit a land, that's not so bad. Anyway, you can use counters to protect him, and then use those counters to fuel him. Seems solid for ever matchup with the glaring exception of Rifter.

Also, have you considered maindecking those Phyrexian Furnaces? You recommend bringing them in in 6 out of the 8 matchups you analyzed. Since they cantrip, they're never dead. Just a thought.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BlindMage

Isochrone Scepter: A little worse, since you can't put a counter on it, but it's main function would be to hold a burn spell, especially Fire/Ice. This improves your ability to race your opponent, and Ice can let you tap that pesky Silver Knight, or Soltari Priest all day long, and draw cards in the process.

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Well...i hate that card.
So... I cannot make an objective statement about it.
Please note that against Combo racing with Scepter is often pointless. Damage via Factory has an equivalent mana/damage ratio.
Repeated Icing is interesting though.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BlindMage

Grim Lavamancer: Also great for a damage race. Has synergy with TfK. Vulnerable to removal, but it he jst takes instant-speed removal that otherwise would have hit a land, that's not so bad. Anyway, you can use counters to protect him, and then use those counters to fuel him. Seems solid for ever matchup with the glaring exception of Rifter.

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Well...i denied the inclusion of Al in my discussions in german forums several times (mostly for simply being him a permanent...and an easily removable in addition). I did not take into account the inclusion of TfK on Al yet. I have to think about this (and maybe retest). :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BlindMage

Also, have you considered maindecking those Phyrexian Furnaces? You recommend bringing them in in 6 out of the 8 matchups you analyzed. Since they cantrip, they're never dead. Just a thought.

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Very well observed.
In fact i played 2 of the Furnaces MD before the inclusion of Shaol and Repeal (in the SnD slot) for about half a year.
The problem about this, is that Furnace is useless only in very few matchups. But those matchups are exactly those where speed matters a lot (Vial Goblins, Deadguy Ale for example) und cycling them especially hurts.
None the less your point is well observed and to some extend very valid. :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kimberly

Well...i denied the inclusion of Al in my discussions in german forums several times (mostly for simply being him a permanent...and an easily removable in addition).

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This is true, but manlands are vulnerable to most of the same removal. For the sake of argument, I'll a little more in-depth on Grim Lavamancer vs. Removal

Goblins: Incinerator, sometimes bolt, sometimes StP. With the exeption of incinerator, these can be countered (and then you can use the counters to fuel the wizard), and anyway, that's an incinerator that didn't off a conclave.

NQGw: StP only. Again, you can counter it. They can counter your counter, but then the won't have a counter for something more relevant. Again, you can then use the counters you used to protect the wizard to fuel him.

NQGr: Bolt, and either Fire/Ice or Magma Jet. This matchup is not so nice for Al, if I was using him, I'd prolly board him out here. However, if you are racing them, he forces them to use some of their limited burn to get rid of him.

Solidarity: None. even if you don't have the mana for him to burn them, he can always go sideways to speed you up a little. if you have the mana of him+manlands, it seems like that would be a boon.

Rifter: Pyroclasm, Lightning Rift, Slice and Dice, StP, WoG, Humility. Ouch, definitely board the wizard out here. Game one, you can play tricks but repealing you own wizard in response to a sweeper, since there's not much else you can do with repeal in that match, and that kind of nonsense is fun.

Deadguy Ale: Vindicate, Engineered Plague (sometimes), StP (sometimes), Cursed Scroll (sometimes). As before, you can counter their removal, which isn't all that heavy. Grim Lavamancer also kills all of their threats.


Anyway, I don't want people to get the wrong idea and think that I think Grim Lavamancer should absolutely definitely be played in this deck, but from some experiance playing against it, it can be really good here. It's also important to note that the above post would be much shorter if I wasn't home sick with too much time on my hands.

Your examples are analysed well. And i would definately call Al a good card against Solidarity and NQGw (against which i would usually not want to counter the StoP, but be happy with a Factory as a Blocker (and counter a StoP then)).

I want to make additions / corections to two of the Matchups:
-Vial Goblins: You did not mention Fanatics. Anyways, Al will rarely live and be able to repeatedly use his ability.
-Deadguy Ale: Here he would be a romantic choice in the first place. Whenever he lives (i doubt much removal will be targetted at him - Vindicate has a lot of other targets, Scroll becomes active later) and you have R for multiple turns, he will win you the game single-handedly.
But...whenever you have R for multiple turns you should usually be on a pretty plain road to the win anyway.
However... if the inclusion of chromatic Sphere is successful and i ever need a SB card for Deadguy Ale, i wilol have to consider him for that slot.

The number of matchups (which you corectly mentioned) where he is bad, and how extremely bad he is there, keeps me from playing him at the moment.

Not to mention the aesthetic* catastrophe of Al + Disk in the same decklist.
*Technically this is not a big problem, but... i believe...to win you have to love your deck and the strategy that it contains to some extend. I cannot love a thing that ugly...

A note about Repeal:
It is rarely dead, especially against Rifter. Most of the things you want to counter aggressively with Shoal are CC1. Against Rifter you have to attack. Shoaling a StoP with Repeal is necessary often.

I'm sure you are right. Clearly the Lavamancer is very vulnerable. And you obviously know more about playing the deck than I (who have only played against it). I was just having fun making the argument.


In that case, enough Lavamancer argument. Here's a more relevant question: You said you have a rather favorable Rifter matchup, and a very favorable Wombat matchup. This is somewhat astonishing, since Wombat's origonal success was based in large part on absolutely murdering Landstill. To what do you attribute this? I always assumed that UR Landstill would do better against Wombat than UW, but turning a matchup that is "ridiculously easy" for Wombat into one that is "basically a bye" for Landstill - a complete reversal - is quite a feat. Can you shed some light on this?

Also, do you ever find youself suffering from the card disadvantage of FoW and Shoal in the same deck?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BlindMage

In that case, enough Lavamancer argument. Here's a more relevant question: You said you have a rather favorable Rifter matchup, and a very favorable Wombat matchup. This is somewhat astonishing, since Wombat's origonal success was based in large part on absolutely murdering Landstill. To what do you attribute this? I always assumed that UR Landstill would do better against Wombat than UW, but turning a matchup that is "ridiculously easy" for Wombat into one that is "basically a bye" for Landstill - a complete reversal - is quite a feat. Can you shed some light on this?

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Of course i can.
I was surprised by this too.
You can see a report about my first testing seession against Wombat here. Of course i retested without Stifle and the other choices and had several sessions against Rifter with the new list, too.
The reason for the drastic change (compared to UW Landstill) is simple: You can fit the beatdown role you are forced into much better.
1. You can burn the dome, which is an immense improvement because UW's removal usually becomes important when Wombat already starts to kill (and the game is lost anyway).
2. You are much more able to risk actually playing a Standstill, cause they cannot simply ignore being beaten by a Factory for 10 live during ...let's say... turn 3 to 8, which they usually can when facing UW Landstill. Which leads to...
3. You are actually capable to kill them when they have already stabilized and chances to get anything past the red line become rare. In the most extreme cases: You are able to kill them at instant speed, breaking your own Standstill, while the board is lost (cause they cycled into too many DoJ's too quickly or anything).
4. You have Flashfires.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BlindMage

Also, do you ever find youself suffering from the card disadvantage of FoW and Shoal in the same deck?

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Basically...no.
As i pointed out, i suffered a lot of not being able to use a Couterspell/Mana Leak at all, when i wanted to. Consider the immense synergy of Shoal and Standstill alone. In that way Shoal often produces advantage instead of disadvantage. VialGoblins AetherVial may be an example for Shoal's unlimited superiority. There are many others...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kimberley

Solidarity: 0-2 (This was Lukas, one of Germany’s two best Solidarity players imho, both my hands were subpar, game 2 he decked me in my upkeep, being at 3 life, in response to Lightning Bolt)*
[...]
*Peek was just awesome btw.

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Wow, thanks, that was quite a compliment. And seriously, Peek WAS awesome. :)

I just have to say that this deck really is very solid (I watched him play it at the tournament in Iserlohn, and all I have to say is, that I was very impressed. This is way faster than the Landstill lists I used to test against). But before they pick it up, people have to realize that this is not a pure control deck like UW Landstill used to be. This deck plays quite differently, and is way more agressive than other Landstill lists.

Well, I don't have much to say, except I absolutely love the prospect of 7 hard free counters. At least the deck murders Belcher if nothing else :P Could you elaborate on the Slice and Dice-slot though? It seems like it'd only really be any good against Goblins and Pikula, and mostly an expensive cycler in other matches. Is it really necessary in the main? Aren't your FYIs and Bolts along with Repeals and 7 free counters enough against the early rush? Then again, seeing that it's a perfect counter to DoJ and enables playing Standstill with guys in play, I guess it's vindicateable, but could you extrapolate a bit, please?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Eldariel

Well, I don't have much to say, except I absolutely love the prospect of 7 hard free counters. At least the deck murders Belcher if nothing else :P Could you elaborate on the Slice and Dice-slot though? It seems like it'd only really be any good against Goblins and Pikula, and mostly an expensive cycler in other matches. Is it really necessary in the main? Aren't your FYIs and Bolts along with Repeals and 7 free counters enough against the early rush? Then again, seeing that it's a perfect counter to DoJ and enables playing Standstill with guys in play, I guess it's vindicateable, but could you extrapolate a bit, please?

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No...i can't...at least not much - sorry. :)
For the most part, i play SnD because it is just a good card and feels very good during testing and tournaments. It adds a lot of versatility to the deck.
Just think about NQG - i hardcast SnD there frequently.
You already mentioned how extremely important it is for the Rifter matchup to have at least the potential to draw SnD.
Against classical beatdown decks (you already mentioned VG and Ale) it can often be used as pure CA.
So...apart from that DoJ argument i play SnD pretty much for just being a good card that fits the deck.

In the old thread some alternative sweepers were discussed: Pyroclasm, Starstorm etc. I hate them all for being clumsy, slow, hight costed, sorcery speed, not being CA against a single Fanatic, Lion, BoP, Confidant.

Note that most opponents do not expect this card as a MD choice, which often leads to misplays that result in severe damage dealt by SnD. I saw people loosing 2 Mongoose to my cycling, which is just ridicoulous.
But there you have another importent use: This card alone nearly entirely prohibits your NQG opponents from doing anything relevant before they reach threshold (Mages are irelevant - mostly a Furneral Charm with CC 2).

I think Isochrone Scepter deserves some very serious consideration. Even those of us who have a personal grudge against this card (I hate it too), must recognize the advantages. I'm not advocating it as a 4-of, but as a 2-of, it could really shine. Maindeck, you have Brainstorm, Fire/Ice, and Lightning Bolt for it, and after board you also have REB/BEB. Fire/Ice on a stick is amazing. It lets you keep those Pro:Red or fat butt guys off you back until you can find an answer, and you get to draw extra cards in the process. You can even use it to tap a land in their upkeep, port-style, and draw cards. That's just what you can do with Ice. The scepter's potential in this deck as either a board control card, draw engine, or both is to overwhelming, in my opinion, to justify not running it.

I have been testing more or less the same list of u/r landstil. After a lot of testing i have cut the fairie conlcave's for islands, and added vedalken shackles. This makes you less vulnerabe to wasteland and lessens the amount of creatures your opponent has. It also owns salvagers combo when going off :wink:

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Tao just told me that he has won Hamburg 03/10/06 with the deck 3.0.1.0

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what version is that?

and another thing, is it so important to use 3 Spheres? I have tested the deck in some matchups, and I think cutting one for another repeal can be greate

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Originally Posted by Rambo

I have been testing more or less the same list of u/r landstil. After a lot of testing i have cut the fairie conlcave's for islands, and added vedalken shackles. This makes you less vulnerabe to wasteland and lessens the amount of creatures your opponent has. It also owns salvagers combo when going off :wink:

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I have not tested this, but consider it possible. I would not like that change though. 15 cards for the win (=damaging your op) is a key value for the deck. I don't want to cut those for anything that is not a cantrip or a win condition itself.
Of course Conclave is often unsatisfiing when played, but it has a unique ability in producing U and being a win condition.

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Originally Posted by Skullclamping

what version is that?

and another thing, is it so important to use 3 Spheres? I have tested the deck in some matchups, and I think cutting one for another repeal can be greate

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Afaik he played the version presented in paragraph 2.
The final version (§5) is limited to testing yet, but will see play soon.

I played the Basic Version without Chromatic Spheres. I played it nearly exactly, changes were: - 1 Shoal, -1 Repeal, +2 Phyrexian Furnace.

The deck is really great, it is amazing how aggressive it is. When I played vs. Survival they had Board Control, more cards in hand, etc. Their only problem was that that they were dead. Like 0 life. They were surprised about it. All it took was some early Damage, then EoT Disk, all out with lands 2 times. The rest was Burn to the Head.

The games vs. Red Gro were quite easy, not too much to worry. In the Lategame you have great advantages, because your real Card Draw overrwhelmes their Card Quality. S'n'D hardcast, Shoal and Nevi Disk really shine there. So you have to worry about the first turns, where you have to prevent as much damage from their Creatures as possible. They cannot put down more than 1 unthreshed Mungo because of S'n'D and unthreshed Bears will be Burned. When they reached threshold you are close to having enough Mana for Disk. Buying Turns with Repeal or Ice on Bears is great, too.

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Originally Posted by kimberley

Afaik he played the version presented in paragraph 2.
The final version (§5) is limited to testing yet, but will see play soon.

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Originally Posted by Tao

I played the Basic Version without Chromatic Spheres. I played it nearly exactly, changes were: - 1 Shoal, -1 Repeal, +2 Phyrexian Furnace.

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so, what version did you play? The one with spheres and shoals (#5) or the one with counterspells (#2)?

Ah, I played another Version, I thought the version 2 had already Shoals instead of Counterspells. I played Version "2. Cardchoices and a first list" with following changes:

- Counterspells replaced by Shoal
- 1 Shoal and 1 Repeal replaced by 2 Phyrexian Furnaces
- No Spheres

I tested some matches against Thresh
it seems we should use some more REB/Pyroblast SB
it can be added with cutting 2 Furnaces and doing like Tao did, 'cause the REB are also a good option against lots of other matches
are you agree with me?

EDIT

a pair of misdirections in the SB can also be a good idea vs. Deadguy

I really think vedalken shackles needs a slot. I think it should be put in the place of chromatic sphere. I really hate that card in this deck, as brainstorm and lightning bolt are always better first turn plays.