Fantastic Mr. Fox (Zirda/Monoliths combo)
FOX TOO FANTASTIC: Banned May 18th, 2020.
https://i.ibb.co/5khBxHL/1179626-2.jpg
The name Fantastic Mr. Fox is a reference to the 2009 Wes Anderson film of the same name. Zirda, the Dawnwaker, the lynchpin of this archetype, is a fox, after all, and is often referred to in this thread as Mr. Fox.
https://gatherer.wizards.com/Handler...9753&type=cardhttps://gatherer.wizards.com/Handler...2626&type=cardhttps://gatherer.wizards.com/Handler...=297&type=card
1. Introduction
Zirda plus either Basalt Monolith or Grim Monolith provides infinite colorless mana, since Zirda on the battlefield means our monoliths tap for more mana than they cost to untap themselves. To actually win, however, still requires another card. Colorless mana-sink win conditions can include cards such as Walking Ballista, Retrofitter Foundry, Magma Mine, Staff of Domination, and Karn, the Great Creator (to tutor for any of the aforementioned cards, or Mycosynth Lattice as a back-up). Cards such as Mystic Forge or Experimental Frenzy can also serve as inconsistent mana sinks under the combo when necessary, in addition to serving as backup card-advantage/dig engines in longer games.
Importantly, the combo is often resilient in the face of creature removal: if our opponent tries to kill/bounce Zirda in response to us untapping a monolith, if we have enough mana available, we can just stack untap triggers on top of their removal and continue to make infinite mana.
There are many shells for this combo, and it's likely more than one is competitively viable. Current shells under development in this thread (see "Theorycrafting" below for lists) include at least the following:
1. Turbo Fox Boom
2. Xerox (XerFox)
3. Emry
4. Bomberman Hybrid
2. Tournament Finishes
There have already been 5-0 MTGO Legacy League finishes featuring the Zirda combo:
4/18/20 Zirda/Bomberman Hybrid #1
4/18/20 Zirda/Bomberman Hybrid #2
4/18/20 Zirda/Emry 3-color Pile
4/30/20 Xerfox (Snowko)
3. Theorycrafting
Shell 1: Turbo Fox Boom
(Named by Tobitzki, in honor, I assume, of the flavor text of Magma Mine)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tobitzki
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/2907908#paper
These lists look to win as fast as possible while still making room for a tiny bit of protection.
Wanderlust's suggested Mono-R Turbo Fox Boom (updated 4/19/20)
This list takes advantage of the most explosive acceleration in Zirda's colors by adding
Simian Spirit Guide and
Seething Song to a traditional suite of artifact acceleration.
Combo:
4
Grim Monolith3
Basalt Monolith
Kill:
2
Magma Mine2
Walking Ballista4
Retrofitter Foundry
Kill/tutor/alternate win:
4
Karn, the Great Creator
Backup engine:
2
Mystic Forge
Protection:
4
Hope of Ghirapur
Protection/mana:
4
Cavern of Souls
Tutor/mana:
1
Inventors' Fair
Mana:
4
Simian Spirit Guide3
Seething Song4
Lotus Petal2
Mox Opal3
Lion's Eye Diamond4
Great Furnace4
Ancient Tomb3
City of Traitors2
Mountain1
Shinka, the Bloodsoaked Keep
Sideboard:
1
Zirda, the Dawnwaker1
Mycosynth Lattice1
Ensnaring Bridge1
Tormod's Crypt1
Defense Grid1
Lion's Eye Diamond1
Basalt Monolith1
Walking Ballista2
Abrade2
Chandra, Awakened Inferno2
Pyroblast1
Mindbreak Trap
Tips, tricks, and other thoughts:
-In a pinch, Retrofitter Foundry can cheaply turn Hope of Ghirapur into a 4/4 construct.
-Retrofitter Foundry, especially in multiples, can actually grind fairly well if the game goes long in the face of disruption.
-Why Magma Mine? It's easier to cast than Walking Ballista prior to sacrificing LED if you need to cast Zirda that way, and it helps turn on Mox Opal early, plus it doesn't die to creature removal when deployed early for either reason.
-Sometimes it's correct to sideboard out a Magma Mine if we expect our opponent to perhaps name Walking Ballista with Pithing Needle or Phyrexian Revoker so that we can still win on the spot off of a Karn -2.
Here's another possible direction:
Tobitzki's WB Wishclaw list 4/9/20
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tobitzki
4x Ancient Tomb
3x City of Traitors
3x Cavern of Souls
1x Inventors' Fair
4x Marsh Flats
1x Plains
4x Scrubland
1x Lion's Eye Diamond
3x Lotus Petal
4x Mox Opal
4x Grim Monolith
3x Basalt Monolith
4x Magma Mine
3x Walking Ballista
2x Zirda, the Dawnwaker
4x Wishclaw Talisman
3x Enlightened Tutor
4x Mishra's Bauble
4x Hope of Ghirapur
1x Orim's Chant
Shell 2: Xerox (or "XerFox" as FTW calls it :tongue:)
Start with Brainstorm, Ponder, and Force of Will and flesh out the rest from there, as Cire proposed over in the spoiler thread:
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Cire
4 Petal
4 LED
4 Basalt Monolith
4 Grim Monolith
4 Walking Ballista
4 [Devil's Play] (so you can play LED? if there is a better win con then I would replace this with that and perhaps LED with a Mox?)
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 FOW
4 Daze
2 Cantrip/Control
10 Lands (to produce U/R or U/W)
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
Companion - Zidra
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FTW
Shell 3: Emry
Featuring the powerful Emry, Lurker of the Loch.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FTW
Shell 4: Bomberman Hybrid
Combining the Zirda combo with Bomberman (Auriok Salvagers + Lion's Eye Diamond) is appealing since there is overlap in relevant cards for both combo strategies.
Cire provides a nice summary of the lists using this shell that have been seeing tournament success so far:
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Cire
...the skeleton looks like:
0-3 Karn, Scion of Urza
4 Karn, the Great Creator
0-2 Ugin, the Ineffable
3-4 Walking Ballista
4 Auriok Salvagers
0-3 Zirda, the Dawnwaker
3 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
3-4 Mox Opal
4 Urza's Bauble
0-2 Mishra's Bauble
2-4 Manifold Key
0-2 Voltaic Key
3 Grim Monolith
0-3 Basalt Monolith
2-3 Mystic Forge
0-2 Retrofitter Foundry
0-2 Chromatic Sphere
0-4 Chromatic Star
2-4 Ancient Den
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
4-5 Plains/Snow Covered
0-4 Cavern of Souls
0-2 Karakas
SB
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Tormod's Crypt
0-1 Walking Ballista
0-3 Swords to Plowshares
0-3 Disenchant/Seal of Cleansing
1 Grim Monolith/Basalt Monolith
1 Sorcerous Spyglass
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Zirda, the Dawnwaker
0-1 Mystic Forge
1 Mycosynth Lattice
0-1 Staff of domination
0-3 Thought-Knot Seer
0-2 Oblivion Ring
0-1 Ethersworn Canonist
0-2 Containment Priest
...
Re: Fantastic Mr. Fox (Zirda/Monoliths combo)
Interesting.
Unfortunately you can't run any of these cards:
Power Artifact (alternate infinite combo engine, would increase consistency and justify the Xerox shell)
Mesmeric Orb (alternate combo with Basalt Monolith)
Chalice of the Void/Defense Grid (resistors would be amazing protection)
Thought-Knot Seer (combo protection/beatdown plan)
Monastery Mentor (beatdown plan, alternate win for Salvagers decks)
Lodestone Golem (beatdown plan, resistor)
But you CAN run any of these cards:
Emry, Lurker of the Loch (dig engine for combo pieces, reuse mana rocks, salvage killed rocks)
Metalworker (other ramp)
Staff of Domination (another win condition, maybe redundant)
Galvanic Key (good with Monoliths)
Endbringer (one of the few Eldrazi you could play)
Steel Hellkite (another good ramp target)
Kuldotha Forgemaster (tutor for combo or bombs)
Lightning Greaves (protection)
Goblin Engineer (tutor + recursion)
Goblin Welder (recursion. Not playing Chalice, so why not?)
Arcum's Astrolabe (card draw, mana fixing)
Teferi, Time Raveler (combo protection)
Oko, Thief of Crowns (we are playing Magic....)
Brainstorm (we are playing Magic...)
Ponder (we can only run 4 Brainstorms)
I think either WelderMUD or Snowko could be a good shell for this.
Re: Fantastic Mr. Fox (Zirda/Monoliths combo)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FTW
[list of cards]
I think either WelderMUD or Snowko could be a good shell for this.
I like the WelderMUD angle quite a bit as Staff of Domination also combos with Metalworker. Sounds like a lot of fun.
Emry seems great too!
Re: Fantastic Mr. Fox (Zirda/Monoliths combo)
Re: Fantastic Mr. Fox (Zirda/Monoliths combo)
If you run E-tutor, why not a single Heliod as tutor target for the infinite combo with Ballista? Might be too cute, but the opportunity cost is low, so there's that.
Re: Fantastic Mr. Fox (Zirda/Monoliths combo)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FTW
SnowFox
This is what a combo deck looks like, right?
<list>
What's gross about this deck is you probably don't even need the Grim Monoliths and Retrofitter Foundries: Zirda is just a +1 card advantage clock by default, which is about all this deck needs when it's time to win.
Re: Fantastic Mr. Fox (Zirda/Monoliths combo)
Ha thanks for running with my idea - I will be absolutely stoked if the next "broken" legacy card is AGAIN a red card.
Great Deck Name BTW!
Re: Fantastic Mr. Fox (Zirda/Monoliths combo)
I'm not even sure we need a pre-existing shell here. This is just a really dumb, hyper-redundant A+B (+ side pet) combo for instant kills.
This would be my starting point:
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/2907908#paper
- 7 Monoliths
- 7 Ballista kill cons
- 7 Tutors for almost any card in the deck (except Fox)
- max out on Foxes
- Hope of G & Cavern of Souls for protection, plus Chant/Abeyance postboard
- lowest possible mana curve
Considerations:
Faithless Looting over Wishclaw or Enlightened Tutor, then play Simian Spirit Guides over Mox Opal or some Sol Lands?
Street Wraith to further shrink the deck (good with E Tutor and can even jump in as a goofy beater if things go awry)
Re: Fantastic Mr. Fox (Zirda/Monoliths combo)
Trying to figure out the fastest this deck can go off (with room for protection)
Turn 1 - Sol Land + Grim Monolith
Turn 2 - Land + Mox/Petal (+ colored card and/or land)) --> Zidra + Win Con + FOW + BLUE
Or:
Turn 1 - Sol Land + Mox (+ colored card and/or land) + Basalt Monolith
Turn 2 - Land --> Zidra + Win Con + FOW + BLUE
This should be fine to get the above pretty consistently if I'm not mistaken? What, even mathematically what is that 65%+?
8 Moxes (Diamond or Chrome)
4 Petal
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Volcanic Island
3 Tundra
4 Grim Monolith
3 Basalt Monolith
3 Hangerback Walker
4 Karn
19 Blue
-4 Daze
-4 FOW
-4 Pact of Negation
-4 Brainstorm
-3 Ponder
SB 14
Companion - Zidra
1 Lattice
1 Basalt Monolith
1 Hangerback Walker
Other Karn Tutor Spots?
Re: Fantastic Mr. Fox (Zirda/Monoliths combo)
Unfortunately this deck can't run Defense Grid, despite all the colorless mana.
Another angle you could take for combo protection in the white shell is Isochron Scepter + Orim's Chant.
Scepter conveniently fits under the Zirda restriction and comes down really easily off Sol Lands.
Scepter + Chant will just win games of Magic on its own, and the rest of the time Chant still protects your combo turn.
Re: Fantastic Mr. Fox (Zirda/Monoliths combo)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tobitzki
I'm not even sure we need a pre-existing shell here. This is just a really dumb, hyper-redundant A+B (+ side pet) combo for instant kills.
This would be my starting point:
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/2907908#paper
- 7 Monoliths
- 7 Ballista kill cons
- 7 Tutors for almost any card in the deck (except Fox)
- max out on Foxes
- Hope of G & Cavern of Souls for protection, plus Chant/Abeyance postboard
- lowest possible mana curve
Considerations:
Faithless Looting over Wishclaw or Enlightened Tutor, then play Simian Spirit Guides over Mox Opal or some Sol Lands?
Street Wraith to further shrink the deck (good with E Tutor and can even jump in as a goofy beater if things go awry)
Karn is probably necessary, as you might need a Plan B if your artifacts get shut down (via Ouphe/opposing Karns)
Another critical question is: How much colored mana/filter cards do you need to reliable cast Zirda on turn X? And how do you achieve that? Technically, you don't even need white with that approach since Zirda uses hybrid mana.
A Welder package might still be effective, both for tutoring (--> Engineer) and general consistency. E.g.
T1: Land, Welder
T2: Land, Monolith, LED, sac LED, play Zirda, make infinite mana, weld in discarded win-con (e.g. Magma Mine), win.
That's a pretty compact combo.
Re: Fantastic Mr. Fox (Zirda/Monoliths combo)
Why play Welder just so you can play LED? In the above if you replace one of the lands with a Sol land and the LED with any mox or LED the end result is the same.
Re: Fantastic Mr. Fox (Zirda/Monoliths combo)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Barook
Karn is probably necessary, as you might need a Plan B if your artifacts get shut down (via Ouphe/opposing Karns)
Another critical question is: How much colored mana/filter cards do you need to reliable cast Zirda on turn X? And how do you achieve that? Technically, you don't even need white with that approach since Zirda uses hybrid mana.
A Welder package might still be effective, both for tutoring (--> Engineer) and general consistency. E.g.
T1: Land, Welder
T2: Land, Monolith, LED, sac LED, play Zirda, make infinite mana, weld in discarded win-con (e.g. Magma Mine), win.
That's a pretty compact combo.
Goblin Engineer and Emry, Lurker of the Loch are both effectively better versions of Welder here because they even tutor for the combo pieces. Karn also acts as both a tutor and an alternate win condition.
I added a Welder-ish list. Like MUD, you can even use Kuldotha Forgemaster and Inventors' Fair as other tutors after early Monolith.
To filter into colored mana, I added Astrolabe. With 1 Sol land + 1 snow basic, you can cast Astrolabe and then it will filter you into 1RR.
Astrolabe synergizes well with Emry and Engineer.
Other mana rocks also help get colored mana and synergize well with Emry.
//Lands: 21
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Prismatic Vista
2 Volcanic Island
3 Snow-Covered Mountain
1 Snow-Covered Island
1 Inventors' Fair
//Planeswalkers: 4
4 Karn, the Great Creator
//Creatures: 14
4 Goblin Engineer
4 Emry, Lurker of the Loch
3 Urza, Lord High Artificer
3 Walking Ballista
//Artifacts: 21
4 Lotus Petal
4 Mox Opal
4 Arcum's Astrolabe
1 Retrofitter Foundry
1 Lightning Greaves
4 Grim Monolith
3 Basalt Monolith
//Sideboard: 15
1 Mr Fox
1 Mycosynth Lattice
1 Liquimetal Coating
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Basalt Monolith
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Trinisphere
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Walking Ballista
1 Ratchet Bomb
3 other spots
This should have a lot of tutor power and recursion. And it has the Karn plan B.
Re: Fantastic Mr. Fox (Zirda/Monoliths combo)
@FTW: I don't really feel Forgemaster. Looks slow and expensive, while Greaves eats another card slot.
I would rather try to fit in Urza if the mana allows it. You can jam giant artifact fatties if you get Null Rod'ed by your opponent and his :5: ability allows you to draw your entire deck once you have infinite mana. Maybe it's a good idea to get like 1x Magma Mine for that, but infinite Urza --> Karn --> fetch Ballista --> NUKE is just as viable.
Re: Fantastic Mr. Fox (Zirda/Monoliths combo)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Barook
@FTW: I don't really feel Forgemaster. Looks slow and expensive, while Greaves eats another card slot.
I would rather try to fit in Urza if the mana allows it. You can jam giant artifact fatties if you get Null Rod'ed by your opponent and his :5: ability allows you to draw your entire deck once you have infinite mana. Maybe it's a good idea to get like 1x Magma Mine for that, but infinite Urza --> Karn --> fetch Ballista --> NUKE is just as viable.
I was skeptical about greaves at first too, but it's great with Emry and Goblin Engineer, or it lets you protect Mr Fox if for some reason you have to pass the turn without comboing off. I think it deserves consideration. Not bad with that Steel Hellkite in the wishboard either... well maybe (expensive to cast Hellkite and still have mana left over to activate it in the same turn.)
Re: Fantastic Mr. Fox (Zirda/Monoliths combo)
Engineer does seem nice; not sure about Welder. Possibly stronger than playing white for E Tutor. I generally don't like the idea of having to wait a turn though. If we already have Fox + 1 other piece in play, Wishclaw Talisman is just instant win for 1B.
Re: Fantastic Mr. Fox (Zirda/Monoliths combo)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tobitzki
Engineer does seem nice; not sure about Welder. Possibly stronger than playing white for E Tutor. I generally don't like the idea of having to wait a turn though. If we already have Fox + 1 other piece in play, Wishclaw Talisman is just instant win for 1B.
What's really fun is Welder/Engineer + Wishclaw Talisman TOGETHER :laugh:. Which reminds me of Painter combo: any reason that couldn't be another hybrid direction to look into? I'll throw a list together, goldfish it a bit, and report back.
EDIT: Painter's Servant has no activated ability. Never mind!
Re: Fantastic Mr. Fox (Zirda/Monoliths combo)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Barook
@FTW: I don't really feel Forgemaster. Looks slow and expensive, while Greaves eats another card slot.
I would rather try to fit in Urza if the mana allows it. You can jam giant artifact fatties if you get Null Rod'ed by your opponent and his :5: ability allows you to draw your entire deck once you have infinite mana. Maybe it's a good idea to get like 1x Magma Mine for that, but infinite Urza --> Karn --> fetch Ballista --> NUKE is just as viable.
Greaves protects Engineer / Emry / Zirda and gives haste. It seems useful.
Forgemaster works as a 3x in MUD (4 Grim + 4 Metalworker), so I thought it should work as a 2-of in a deck with 4x Grim + 3x Basalt + other mana rocks. There's a lot of maindeck ramp. It's less slow with Greaves. Steel Hellkite was there to board in as a Forgemaster target for the alternate beatdown plan.
Good point though, Urza's probably just better and more resilient against Collector Ouphe.
-2 Forgemaster
-1 other card
+3 Urza
Re: Fantastic Mr. Fox (Zirda/Monoliths combo)
Honestly I don't think there is any reason to jam in a second combo, or jam the combo into a Mud list or even use cards like Urza.
Just with these cards:
4 Grim Monolith
4 Karn
3 Basalt Monolith
3 Hangerback Walker
-Companion Zirda
you have a 2 card combo that costs 2(r/w)(r/w) or 3(r/w)(r/w) that is split-able over two turns and has redundancy with multiple pieces.
Pretty much all successful 2 card combo decks, except painter, always end up eventually just running Xerox and associated protection:
8-12 Cantrips
4 FOW
0-6 Blue Protection.
Once you have those two "core" shells in - you're really then debating consistency and speed, but I don't see why that isn't the direction we should be aiming for?
Edit - In terms of speed there is my skeleton above trying to go as fast as possible while still having at least 1 protection spell. In terms of slowest build with no accel you can do this and have a very consistent 3-4 turn clock.
10 Cantrips
4 FOW
4 Daze
4 Pact of Negation
4 Other control/Protection Cards
4 Grim Monolith
4 Karn
3 Basalt Monolith
3 Hangerback Walker
20 Lands
-Companion Zirda
My guess is that optimal build will be somewhere in the middle of those two lists so my skeleton that I will test will be this loose list:
0-8 Moxes
0-4 Petal
0-8 Sol Lands
7-20 Non-Sol Lands
4 Grim Monolith
4 Karn
3 Basalt Monolith
3 Hangerback Walker
4 Brainstorm
4 FOW
3-4 Ponder
0-2 Preordain
4 FOW
4 Daze
4 Pact of Negation
0-6 Additional Protection
Definitely a very loose list ATM - just thought of the combo today, no testing as of yet.
Re: Fantastic Mr. Fox (Zirda/Monoliths combo)
I just spent a while following Tobitzki's lead towards maximal speed and redundancy while still having some protection. Here's what I arrived at:
Combo pieces/mana:
4 Grim Monolith
3 Basalt Monolith
Kill:
4 Magma Mine
3 Walking Ballista
Kill/Tutor/Alternate win con:
4 Karn, the Great Creator
Protection:
4 Hope of Ghirapur
4 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
Mana:
4 Lotus Petal
3 Lion's Eye Diamond
2 Mox Opal
3 Simian Spirit Guide
3 Seething Song
Land:
4 Great Furnace
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Cavern of Souls
2 Inventors' Fair
Sideboard:
1 Mr. Fox
1 Mycosynth Lattice
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Sorcerous Spyglass
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Basalt Monolith
1 Walking Ballista
4 Abrade (to destroy Null Rods and Collector Ouphes)
2 By Force (destroy more Null Rods)
1 Mindbreak Trap
Played matches against 4c Snowko Control and UR Delver and won both 2-1. Deck felt powerful.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Cire
<truncated>
Cire I've arrived at the same conclusion that jamming this into decks with other combos isn't feeling like the right direction. And I look forward to testing out your ideas: there's a lot to be said for just playing the best cards in the format, obviously. The main problem I see with the Xerox shell is the manabase: I don't see a way to max out on sol lands, much less have room for cavern of souls, and also be reliably deploying the blue cantrip cartel and having islands for Daze. Cutting down on sol lands inevitably slows down the deck, I would think. Is the trade-off in speed worth it? I look forward to seeing how things develop.
