Proposing a shortcut to gain information?
In the block of comprehensive rules text that I append at the end of my post, it sounds like player A can propose a shortcut, player B can propose to shorten the shortcut at a particular point, and player A can then propose to shorten *that* shortcut. My question is, can’t player A use this to fish for information without committing to anything if committing would be bad?
In the rules text I quote below, they use the Presence of Gond + Intruder Alarm example. I could say to you, “I propose making a million tokens. OK?” Now let’s say that a million tokens would win, but you have some way to make me regret making some specific number less than a million. Maybe I’m at 3 life with a Soul Warden in play and you’re holding Hidetsugu’s Second Rite. The particular interaction is irrelevant: Just pretend you could kill me mid-loop. So naturally you propose to interrupt the loop at the moment when you could kill me. If I understand the rules correctly, I could then say to myself, “whoa, my opponent has that weird way to kill me mid-loop. Guess I’d better wait til circumstances are more favorable.” And I could say to you, “Never mind. I’m shortening my shortcut proposal to the point where nothing relevant happens. Pass.”
So, just by proposing the shortcut, I’ve successfully fished for information and avoided walking into your trap. Is that really how it works?
EDIT: I answered my question by reading better. I guess maybe someone will learn something from this post, so I’ll leave what I’ve written. But here’s what appears to be the key: In rule 722.2c, it’s the “last player” in turn order who gets to propose the shortest version of the shortcut. It’s not a matter of everybody continuing to take turns shortening the proposed shortcut. Each player just gets one chance to have a say in the shortcut. In a two-player game, when I propose making a million tokens, you just say you’re interrupting me in the moment when you can kill me with, say, Hidetsugu’s Second Rite, and then that’s what happens (unless I have further responses up my sleeve). Someone correct me if I’m wrong, but this makes sense to me.
Copying in some rules text:
722.2. Taking a shortcut follows the following procedure.
722.2a At any point in the game, the player with priority may suggest a shortcut by describing a sequence of game choices, for all players, that may be legally taken based on the current game state and the predictable results of the sequence of choices. This sequence may be a non-repetitive series of choices, a loop that repeats a specified number of times, multiple loops, or nested loops, and may even cross multiple turns. It can’t include conditional actions, where the outcome of a game event determines the next action a player takes. The ending point of this sequence must be a place where a player has priority, though it need not be the player proposing the shortcut.
Example: A player controls a creature enchanted by Presence of Gond, which grants the creature the ability “{T}: Create a 1/1 green Elf Warrior creature token,” and another player controls Intruder Alarm, which reads, in part, “Whenever a creature enters the battlefield, untap all creatures.” When the player has priority, they may suggest “I’ll create a million tokens,” indicating the sequence of activating the creature’s ability, all players passing priority, letting the creature’s ability resolve and create a token (which causes Intruder Alarm’s ability to trigger), Intruder Alarm’s controller putting that triggered ability on the stack, all players passing priority, Intruder Alarm’s triggered ability resolving, all players passing priority until the player proposing the shortcut has priority, and repeating that sequence 999,999 more times, ending just after the last token-creating ability resolves.
722.2b Each other player, in turn order starting after the player who suggested the shortcut, may either accept the proposed sequence, or shorten it by naming a place where they will make a game choice that’s different than what’s been proposed. (The player doesn’t need to specify at this time what the new choice will be.) This place becomes the new ending point of the proposed sequence.
Example: The active player draws a card during her draw step, then says, “Go.” The nonactive player is holding Into the Fray (an instant that says “Target creature attacks this turn if able”) and says, “I’d like to cast a spell during your beginning of combat step.” The current proposed shortcut is that all players pass priority at all opportunities during the turn until the nonactive player has priority during the beginning of combat step.
722.2c Once the last player has either accepted or shortened the shortcut proposal, the shortcut is taken. The game advances to the last proposed ending point, with all game choices contained in the shortcut proposal having been taken. If the shortcut was shortened from the original proposal, the player who now has priority must make a different game choice than what was originally proposed for that player.
Re: Proposing a shortcut to gain information?
Note that only OTHER players are allowed to shorten the shortcut. You are not given a second chance to further shorten the loop. For example, in the pass the turn example given below, you can't say "Go", have them say "I'd like to cast this in your end of turn" and then you come back and say "Oh, then I'll cast this Teferi in my main phase". Once you propose a loop, it will happen (no take backies) up until the point where ANOTHER player would like to interact.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
BirdsOfParadise
Copying in some rules text:
722.2. Taking a shortcut follows the following procedure.
722.2a At any point in the game, the player with priority may suggest a shortcut by describing a sequence of game choices, for all players, that may be legally taken based on the current game state and the predictable results of the sequence of choices. This sequence may be a non-repetitive series of choices, a loop that repeats a specified number of times, multiple loops, or nested loops, and may even cross multiple turns. It can’t include conditional actions, where the outcome of a game event determines the next action a player takes. The ending point of this sequence must be a place where a player has priority, though it need not be the player proposing the shortcut.
Example: A player controls a creature enchanted by Presence of Gond, which grants the creature the ability “{T}: Create a 1/1 green Elf Warrior creature token,” and another player controls Intruder Alarm, which reads, in part, “Whenever a creature enters the battlefield, untap all creatures.” When the player has priority, they may suggest “I’ll create a million tokens,” indicating the sequence of activating the creature’s ability, all players passing priority, letting the creature’s ability resolve and create a token (which causes Intruder Alarm’s ability to trigger), Intruder Alarm’s controller putting that triggered ability on the stack, all players passing priority, Intruder Alarm’s triggered ability resolving, all players passing priority until the player proposing the shortcut has priority, and repeating that sequence 999,999 more times, ending just after the last token-creating ability resolves.
722.2b Each other player, in turn order starting after the player who suggested the shortcut, may either accept the proposed sequence, or shorten it by naming a place where they will make a game choice that’s different than what’s been proposed. (The player doesn’t need to specify at this time what the new choice will be.) This place becomes the new ending point of the proposed sequence.
Example: The active player draws a card during her draw step, then says, “Go.” The nonactive player is holding Into the Fray (an instant that says “Target creature attacks this turn if able”) and says, “I’d like to cast a spell during your beginning of combat step.” The current proposed shortcut is that all players pass priority at all opportunities during the turn until the nonactive player has priority during the beginning of combat step.
722.2c Once the last player has either accepted or shortened the shortcut proposal, the shortcut is taken. The game advances to the last proposed ending point, with all game choices contained in the shortcut proposal having been taken. If the shortcut was shortened from the original proposal, the player who now has priority must make a different game choice than what was originally proposed for that player.
