UGbw Yorion Intuition

Okay, so a little background first. This deck originally started out many years ago as UBg The Mind Harvester, which had its basis off of my even older UBg Psychatog and later 4c Its The Fear decks, but is essentially an Intuition/Loam deck at its core.

Older variations were built around the card advantage and value engines of Intuition and Life from the Loam, jam packed with countermagic and removal, typically with some sort of finisher threat, but newer and better cards being printed has turned this from a hard control deck into more of a midrange combo deck, which is why I have created a new thread for it.

The current iteration combines the Yorion Snowko shell in with a Lands shell to essentially hybridize it into what it is now. The deck basically needs to run 80 cards to fit everything in anyway, so becoming a Yorion deck is a no-brainer. Even with the change to the companion rule, Yorion is still pretty good.

Arcum's Astrolabe helps stitch the deck together, allowing the colorless lands to become colored sources, and it enables the deck to become a four color goodstuff.dec

The Snowko component gives the deck plenty of spell interaction and removal, while the Lands component gives the deck acceleration with Exploration, land utility with Life from the Loam, and the one-card combo of Intuition. Intuition sets up the ability to make a 20/20 Marit Lage every turn, a near unstoppable swarm of 2/2 zombie tokens every turn, or grabs Uro when the other options are too slow (due to lack of Exploration). Both the Snowko and Lands shells give the deck plenty of card advantage and ability to grind.

Leovold and Teferi add additional disruption elements that allow the deck to interact favorably with most other decks in the format. Wasteland is another interesting component that normal Snowko decks lack.

Fundamentally, the deck is a combo deck that utilizes a midrange shell to grind against other decks before going off, similar to decks like Food Chain and Aluren. Alternatively, it can Plan B with creature/Oko beatdown, if for whatever reason it cannot go off with its primary plan.

Anyway, here's my current list:

UGbw Yorion Intuition

Lands (28)
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
2 Prismatic Vista
2 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
1 Tundra
2 Snow-covered Island
2 Snow-covered Forest
1 Snow-covered Swamp
1 Snow-covered Plains
1 Waterlogged Grove
1 Cabal Pit
1 Karakas
1 Blast Zone
3 Wasteland
1 Thespian's Stage
1 Field of the Dead
1 Dark Depths

Creatures (8)
4 Ice-Fang Coatl
3 Snapcaster Mage
1 Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath

Spells (43)
3 Oko, Thief of Crowns
2 Teferi, Time Raveler
4 Arcum's Astrolabe
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Intuition
2 Life from the Loam
4 Exploration
2 Force of Negation
4 Force of Will
4 Thoughtseize
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Abrupt Decay

Sideboard (15)
1 Yorion, Sky Nomad
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Narset, Parter of Veils
1 Ashiok, Dream Render
2 Flusterstorm
2 Veil of Summer
2 Force of Vigor
1 Assassin's Trophy
2 Dead of Winter
2 Surgical Extraction


I made a pretty detailed post in my other thread, which can be found here, so I won't restate all of it again.

Comments/questions/concerns are welcome. I can also post an exhaustive list of other cards I have considered for this deck, which includes a good handful that could still make their way into the deck at some point.

Reserved.

After some more playtesting and research, I've decided to make a couple of tweaks.

For starters, it just makes sense to have more Uro's. Despite not needing the ramp as much because of Exploration, and despite not needing a big finisher the same as other 4c lists due to Intuition, it's still a ridiculously powerful card.

Uro is supported exceptionally well with this deck; Intuition can grab it, Loam can dredge into it and the dredge feeds it, Wasteland can deal with opposing Karakas, etc. Life gain is pretty good in general, and the card advantage can pile up.

Obviously the biggest distraction is the mana cost, especially with the number of non-blue and non-green sources, but I'd like to try and make it work regardless.

I'm going to tweak the manabase to include the second basic Forest (cutting an Island). I'm also going to cut a Vista for another Misty.

I'm kind of torn on how exactly I want to modify the deck. Coatl is too important to cut because it's removal and the instant speed draw can dredge Loam in response to graveyard hate. Snapcaster is also too important to cut because it can flashback Intuition, and it allows me to have more of what I need depending on the matchup. So the only flex slots I really have are the Leovold's and the Planeswalker's.

Oko is pretty important; in fact, it's probable that I should be figuring out how to go up to 3 copies. I really like what Leovold and Teferi bring to the table in terms of disruption, though. Considering that this deck is a hybrid combo deck, the ability to disrupt the opponent is a pretty big deal. Ultimately, I feel like Oko and Teferi just do more for me, so I'm pretty sure Leovold ends up being the cut.

I do want to fit Leovold back into the sideboard, so I guess I'll trim a Veil of Summer for one.

EDIT: I need more playtesting to determine if I should be on 3 Uro 2 Oko, or 2 Uro 3 Oko.

What about going to 3 Oko 3 Uro and -1 Exploration?

It's sounds like your deck wants to be playing the main Snowko engine because it's just too powerful not to. You also don't want to give up any of the Intuition package (would defeat the purpose of the deck), and most of the other slots are smoothing out the control role.

Because you can always Intuition for Uro when you don't have Exploration, do you need the 4th copy? Exploration can be fairly weak on its own before you get the Lands engine online. It might be better than any other cut you'd have to consider.

What does this offer over the other 4C Yorion deck
for reference:

Companion
1 Yorion, Sky Nomad
Creatures (10)
1 Baleful Strix
4 Ice-Fang Coatl
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
4 Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath
Planeswalkers (4)
4 Dack Fayden
Spells (32)
4 Brainstorm
3 Cling to Dust
2 Fatal Push
1 Lightning Bolt
4 Ponder
4 Assassin's Trophy
3 Drown in the Loch
3 Punishing Fire
1 Shadow of Doubt
2 Force of Negation
1 Toxic Deluge
4 Force of Will
Artifacts (4)
4 Arcum's Astrolabe
Lands (30)
1 Badlands
1 Bayou
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Karakas
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Snow-Covered Forest
3 Snow-Covered Island
1 Snow-Covered Swamp
2 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
1 Verdant Catacombs
2 Volcanic Island
1 Waterlogged Grove
Sideboard (14)
1 Carpet of Flowers
3 Pyroblast
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Thoughtseize
1 Collector Ouphe
1 Damping Sphere
1 Brazen Borrower
1 Force of Negation
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Plague Engineer
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Notion Thief
95 Cards Total

It's a very similar deck but it basically replaces Intuition with Dack Fayden.
Both do a similar role of filling your graveyard for Uro, then Dack is CA with the PFire engine (or with putting cards in your graveyard for Cling escape) rather than using Loam.
I think the Exploration/Loam combo is a bit inconsistent to assemble in 80 cards (even with the intuitions) and Exploration on its own just isn't a very good fit for the deck.
4x wasteland with these mana requirements is probably a bit too ambitious, even with Loam 2x

I can see a version of this deck working with Intuition instead of Dack but I think I would cut all the explorations and the dark depths combo and cut the loam and wasteland down to 1x

Exploration is such a strong turn 1 start, and is pretty important to have on the table when going off with Intuition, that I am hesitant to want to cut one. Multiple copies are mostly unnecessary, so it sort of makes sense, but I feel like it's just way too important to want to cut.

I really don't want to trim the 2nd copy of Life from the Loam, and so it's basically Uro or Force of Negation that I am considering right now. It's also still questionable how badly the 3rd Oko (or 3rd Uro) is when I can just resolve an Intuition and win that way.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kombatkiwi

What does this offer over the other 4C Yorion deck

It's a very similar deck but it basically replaces Intuition with Dack Fayden.

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It's playing white over red, Teferi + StP instead of PFire and Dack. I think Teferi and StP are both objectively better cards, they don't need synergy to be good. Intuition works as not only a tutor for combo pieces but also an instant speed value-generator. I think it shifts the deck into more draw-go than tap-out control, with subtle shifts in play patterns. Beyond that it's still an 80 card freakin' deck, tutors are only going to make it better.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kombatkiwi

What does this offer over the other 4C Yorion deck
for reference:

Companion
1 Yorion, Sky Nomad
Creatures (10)
1 Baleful Strix
4 Ice-Fang Coatl
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
4 Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath
Planeswalkers (4)
4 Dack Fayden
Spells (32)
4 Brainstorm
3 Cling to Dust
2 Fatal Push
1 Lightning Bolt
4 Ponder
4 Assassin's Trophy
3 Drown in the Loch
3 Punishing Fire
1 Shadow of Doubt
2 Force of Negation
1 Toxic Deluge
4 Force of Will
Artifacts (4)
4 Arcum's Astrolabe
Lands (30)
1 Badlands
1 Bayou
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Karakas
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Snow-Covered Forest
3 Snow-Covered Island
1 Snow-Covered Swamp
2 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
1 Verdant Catacombs
2 Volcanic Island
1 Waterlogged Grove
Sideboard (14)
1 Carpet of Flowers
3 Pyroblast
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Thoughtseize
1 Collector Ouphe
1 Damping Sphere
1 Brazen Borrower
1 Force of Negation
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Plague Engineer
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Notion Thief
95 Cards Total

It's a very similar deck but it basically replaces Intuition with Dack Fayden.
Both do a similar role of filling your graveyard for Uro, then Dack is CA with the PFire engine (or with putting cards in your graveyard for Cling escape) rather than using Loam.
I think the Exploration/Loam combo is a bit inconsistent to assemble in 80 cards (even with the intuitions) and Exploration on its own just isn't a very good fit for the deck.
4x wasteland with these mana requirements is probably a bit too ambitious, even with Loam 2x

I can see a version of this deck working with Intuition instead of Dack but I think I would cut all the explorations and the dark depths combo and cut the loam and wasteland down to 1x

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The difference is that the standard Yorion deck is a midrange control deck, where this deck is a midrange combo deck. The Dack list is forced to control the game and grind out card advantage in order to be able to win. Resolving a Dack does not directly nor immediately translate into a win, whereas this deck can simply resolve an EOT Intuition and then untap to put a 20/20 on the table. The speed at which this deck can close out a game is extremely relevant against most of the combo decks in the format, and is still relevant against everything else. In midrange matchups, Field of the Dead can be almost impossible to deal with.

It's sort of like asking the difference between BUG midrange and BUG Food Chain from a couple of years back.

Exploration is fantastic for accelerating this deck into a spot where it can get out from under decks like Delver and D&T, and just generally helps this deck get ahead in other matchups to be able to start resolving bombs sooner, as well as deploy threats and cast answers on the same turn sooner. The tempo that Exploration provides is huge in a lot of cases.

The combo itself is not inconsistent to assemble. Digging for an Intuition in 80 cards is certainly slower than Omnitell digging for Show and Tell in 60 cards, but I have plenty of draw effects and tools to slow the game down and grind an opponent out. Intuition is not necessary to resolve in order to be able to win either, the same way that Food Chain doesn't always have to resolve a Food Chain in order to win.

4 Wasteland may be too ambitious, but I'm expecting Astrolabe and Life from the Loam to assist with making sure I can cover the colored requirements. The colored requirements issue may be a nudge in favor of 3 Oko 2 Uro, actually. Maybe I cut 1 Wasteland for 1 Waterlogged Grove?

Keeping Intuition but cutting the Lands/combo component makes no sense whatsoever.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mr. Safety

It's playing white over red, Teferi + StP instead of PFire and Dack. I think Teferi and StP are both objectively better cards, they don't need synergy to be good. Intuition works as not only a tutor for combo pieces but also an instant speed value-generator. I think it shifts the deck into more draw-go than tap-out control, with subtle shifts in play patterns. Beyond that it's still an 80 card freakin' deck, tutors are only going to make it better.

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Intuition is the replacement for Dack, not Teferi

I think for this deck to be viable Intuition needs to be a strong card on its own.

3 mana for Dack represents a repeated CA engine without spending additional mana (ok tap grove to return Pfire, fine), plus it can be a relevant tempo play because it steals artifacts, you have the pressure of ticking up to the ultimate, etc

Intuition is 3 mana put 2 cards into your graveyard and 1 card into your hand, it doesn't affect the battlefield directly, and to get CA out of it you need to spend a lot more mana on other cards that you are putting in the graveyard with it (loam/uro) which Dack Fayden could also help to put in the graveyard, if you want.

If exploration is "pretty important to have on the table when going off with intuition" then that reads like intuition is too clunky of a card by itself and needs this extra help to be effective; if that is true (exploration is necessary to make intuition a playable card) then I feel like the deck is probably too inconsistent.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kombatkiwi

Intuition is the replacement for Dack, not Teferi

I think for this deck to be viable Intuition needs to be a strong card on its own.

3 mana for Dack represents a repeated CA engine without spending additional mana (ok tap grove to return Pfire, fine), plus it can be a relevant tempo play because it steals artifacts, you have the pressure of ticking up to the ultimate, etc

Intuition is 3 mana put 2 cards into your graveyard and 1 card into your hand, it doesn't affect the battlefield directly, and to get CA out of it you need to spend a lot more mana on other cards that you are putting in the graveyard with it (loam/uro) which Dack Fayden could also help to put in the graveyard, if you want.

If exploration is "pretty important to have on the table when going off with intuition" then that reads like intuition is too clunky of a card by itself and needs this extra help to be effective; if that is true (exploration is necessary to make intuition a playable card) then I feel like the deck is probably too inconsistent.

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Intuition is a strong card on its own. It's basically a 3 mana instant tutor for 3 cards that grabs all of the pieces necessary to set up the kill. The fact that it is versatile in what kill it can grab depending on the matchup, and the fact that it can grab other utility to deal with an enormous amount of situations, makes it incredibly powerful.

Dack is easily dealt with by a number of answers in the format, doesn't do anything inherently broken on its own, and is fairly weak/slow without specific other cards. Running 4 Dack and 0 Oko also looks suspect.

Intuition immediately affects the battlefield the turn after you cast it, and depending on gamestate/pile, sometimes even the same turn that you cast it.

The amount of additional mana that you need to spend after resolving Intuition is negligible.

Exploration is important to have on the board because of how dramatically it speeds up making a 20/20 or flooding the board with 2/2 zombies, but is no way a requirement, and Intuition is not a clunky card without it.

You claim the deck is inconsistent, but on what basis? Because it runs 80 cards? I'd argue that the Dack list looks anemic, with Uro and Yorion as the only seriously threatening ways to close the game out, which are still fairly slow at doing so.

EDIT: You're comparing apples to oranges. The Dack list is a midrange control deck. This is a midrange combo deck. You have the idea that I am attempting to use Intuition/Loam as a value engine, when in reality it's a combo finish. Naturally drawn Loam is certainly a value engine, and Intuition can set up value engines depending on the gamestate, but most of the time, Intuition/Loam is setting up the kill.

I also decided to go with 2 Uro 3 Oko after our discussion on the colored sources, and I cut 1 Tropical Island for a Waterlogged Grove, because why not. I could certainly cut 1 Wasteland for the Waterlogged Grove instead, but having the playset of Wasteland increases the consistency of drawing into double Wasteland with Loam and Exploration for the Lands-style Wasteland-lock, which can be brutal against matchups like Eldrazi Post, Lands, Aggro Loam, etc. Cabal Pit is another consideration for cutting, since Threshold can be hard to hit with Uro, but I'd probably replace it with Grasping Dunes if I did.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hanni

Intuition is a strong card on its own. It's basically a 3 mana instant tutor for 3 cards that grabs all of the pieces necessary to set up the kill. The fact that is versatile in what kill it can grab depending on the matchup, and the fact that it can grab other utility to deal with an enormous amount of situations, makes it incredibly powerful. Dack is easily dealt with by a number of answers in the format, doesn't do anything inherently broken on its own, and is fairly weak/slow without specific other cards.

Intuition immediately affects the battlefield the turn after you cast it, and depending on gamestate, sometimes even the turn that you cast it.

The amount of additional mana that you need to spend after casting Intuition is negligible.

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If this is all true then cut exploration

Quote:

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Exploration is important to have on the board because of how dramatically it speeds up making a 20/20 or flooding the board with 2/2 zombies, but is no way a requirement, and Intuition is not a clunky card without it.
You claim the deck is inconsistent, but on what basis? Because it runs 80 cards?

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If you're at the point in the game where you are winning with 2/2 zombies then you have 7 lands in play already and you have most likely already taken over the game with Uro, you don't need 1 more zombie per turn.

I agree that turn 1 exploration + 2nd land, turn 2 intuition, turn 3 depths + stage, turn 4 attack with 2020 kills faster than turn 3 intuition turn 4 depths turn 5 stage turn 6 attack with 2020 but putting exploration in your deck to achieve this is a huge cost. (And by doing this you're spending basically all your mana on the first 4 turns into making the 2020, so if the reasoning is to be able to goldfish combo decks faster, what respectable combo deck isn't just going to kill you by then anyway).

Cards like Mox Diamond / Exploration are always card disadvantage, which is why you only see these effects played in decks that either have effects like 4x Loam / Bob to easily recoup the card disadvantage, or Simic Growth Chamber, etc. At minimum, decks that play these cards should have a high land count, to make sure that even if they can't immediately recover the card disadvantage from these cards, the effects are at least usable almost all of the time for the tempo gain (i.e. you have the extra lands in your hand to play/discard).

When you only have 28 lands (plus 2 loam) in your 80 card deck then a large amount of the time the exploration is simply not going to do anything (or realistically it's going to be a 0/0 Arboreal Grazer). This is a huge downside for a deck that's ostensibly trying to play some kind of grindy 1-for-1 control gameplan (you have 4 plow and 4 thoughtseize in your maindeck). Relying on Loam/Intuition to compensate for this is the source of the inconsistency

For example looking at some random lands build off goldfish https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/3369256#online
4 Exploration + 4 Diamond
35 Lands maindeck
4 maindeck loam plus 3 gamble to find it
3 maindeck sylvan library as an additional cheap way to recover the card disadvantage off Diamond/Exploration

You might try to argue that your Exploration doesn't need so much support because you aren't also playing Diamond with it, but not playing Diamond doesn't alleviate the issue of "what percentage of the time I draw Exploration is it going to brick", which in my opinion is going to be too often (the inconsistency problem).

If you want to forge ahead with this idea then at least acknowledge that the Stryfo deck is playing 30 lands maindeck compared to your 28 despite not playing any explorations and the only "colourless" source is the 1 Karakas. The only lands that don't cast Uro are the Karakas, Badlands, and Swamp. You're trying to play a 4-colour 80 card control deck that needs to pay UUGG with 28 lands including:
1 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Cabal Pit
1 Karakas
1 Blast Zone
4 Wasteland
1 Stage
1 Field of the Dead
1 Depths

Quote:

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EDIT: You're comparing apples to oranges. The Dack list is a midrange control deck. This is a midrange combo deck. You have the idea that I am attempting to use Intuition/Loam as a value engine, when in reality it's a combo finish. Naturally drawn Loam is certainly a value engine, and Intuition can set up value engines depending on the gamestate, but most of the time, Intuition/Loam is setting up the kill.

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If you're a combo deck why are you playing all of oko/fow/TS/plow and talking about wastelocking eldrazi players

You can't be reasoned with because you have a terminal case of Giftsplayer brainworms (I have fallen victim to this a lot trying to brew decks in modern), where no matter what flaw is criticised you can point to some card in the "4c cards-from-my-binder" decklist which supposedly addresses the problem.

Eventually you will test the deck and find that either
A) The pieces don't all fit together as neatly as you thought they did, or
B) The deck runs about as smoothly as you expected but you underestimated how strong the rest of the meta decks are

... or C) I was wrong and the deck is fine, but I'll cross that bridge when (if) I get to it

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kombatkiwi

If this is all true then cut exploration



If you're at the point in the game where you are winning with 2/2 zombies then you have 7 lands in play already and you have most likely already taken over the game with Uro, you don't need 1 more zombie per turn.

I agree that turn 1 exploration + 2nd land, turn 2 intuition, turn 3 depths + stage, turn 4 attack with 2020 kills faster than turn 3 intuition turn 4 depths turn 5 stage turn 6 attack with 2020 but putting exploration in your deck to achieve this is a huge cost. (And by doing this you're spending basically all your mana on the first 4 turns into making the 2020, so if the reasoning is to be able to goldfish combo decks faster, what respectable combo deck isn't just going to kill you by then anyway).

Cards like Mox Diamond / Exploration are always card disadvantage, which is why you only see these effects played in decks that either have effects like 4x Loam / Bob to easily recoup the card disadvantage, or Simic Growth Chamber, etc. At minimum, decks that play these cards should have a high land count, to make sure that even if they can't immediately recover the card disadvantage from these cards, the effects are at least usable almost all of the time for the tempo gain (i.e. you have the extra lands in your hand to play/discard).

When you only have 28 lands (plus 2 loam) in your 80 card deck then a large amount of the time the exploration is simply not going to do anything (or realistically it's going to be a 0/0 Arboreal Grazer). This is a huge downside for a deck that's ostensibly trying to play some kind of grindy 1-for-1 control gameplan (you have 4 plow and 4 thoughtseize in your maindeck). Relying on Loam/Intuition to compensate for this is the source of the inconsistency

For example looking at some random lands build off goldfish https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/3369256#online
4 Exploration + 4 Diamond
35 Lands maindeck
4 maindeck loam plus 3 gamble to find it
3 maindeck sylvan library as an additional cheap way to recover the card disadvantage off Diamond/Exploration

You might try to argue that your Exploration doesn't need so much support because you aren't also playing Diamond with it, but not playing Diamond doesn't alleviate the issue of "what percentage of the time I draw Exploration is it going to brick", which in my opinion is going to be too often (the inconsistency problem).

If you want to forge ahead with this idea then at least acknowledge that the Stryfo deck is playing 30 lands maindeck compared to your 28 despite not playing any explorations and the only "colourless" source is the 1 Karakas. The only lands that don't cast Uro are the Karakas, Badlands, and Swamp. You're trying to play a 4-colour 80 card control deck that needs to pay UUGG with 28 lands including:
1 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Cabal Pit
1 Karakas
1 Blast Zone
4 Wasteland
1 Stage
1 Field of the Dead
1 Depths

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Dude, why do you keep talking out of your ass? Why would I cut Exploration? The fact that it isn't necessary doesn't mean that it doesn't dramatically improve the deck.

I've played and I've watched plenty of matchups to know that Uro doesn't always take over games. Field of the Dead is intended for the midrange matchups, where opponent's often have plenty of ways to deal with opposing Uro's. Karakas, Swords to Plowshares, Oko, whatever. Getting to 7 lands is fairly easy to do with Exploration, but even without it, getting to 7 lands in midrange matchups is pretty normal to accomplish.

It's also significantly more than 1 zombie per turn. Intuition grabs Stage/Field, so you only need 5 other different lands on the table prior, then those come down and you get 1 zombie. Stage copies Field, and then every land that enters after that gives you 2 zombies. A fetchland converts into 4 zombies/turn; Exploration (or Uro) and 2 fetchlands is 8 zombies/turn. /facepalm

Why the hell would I be concerned about card advantage in a deck that grinds out tons of it, and can just combo off to not even care about the disadvantage at all? Should I be cutting Force of Will and Force of Negation too? Why would combo decks play with Lotus Petal if the card disadvantage matters so much, and how can they possibly be so successful? Do you not understand how significant the difference between killing on turn 4 vs turn 6 is? /facepalm

If 28 land, 2 Loam, and 4 Intuition is not enough, there are plenty of other draw effects that will draw me into more lands if that's what I need. Even just accelerating out to 4 lands on turn 2 and then being stuck on 4 for a bit is still going to be worth the initial card disadvantage of having an Exploration in play.

How does having Thoughtseize turn me into a 1-for-1 deck? Yes there are some 1-for-1's, and there are some 1-for-2's as well (Forces), but the deck has plenty of other cards that are 2-for-1 or better. I don't even understand this argument. What other decks in the format don't have some amount of these? How many other combo decks have more than zero cards that 2-for-1 or better?

I'm not trying to rely on Intuition/Loam for card advantage or consistency, I'm trying to resolve Intuition so that I can combo kill to win the game. In lieu of that plan, I have a Snowko shell to buy me time or to act as a plan B.

I don't need Sylvan Library to recoup card disadvantage because I have other forms of card advantage built into my deck. That's not to say that Library wouldn't be great, just that I don't have the extra room for them.

The only thing you've said that I agree with is the fact that hitting UUGG for escaping Uro is going to be difficult with my manabase. My hope was that between Astrolabe and Intuition/Loam, that it would work, but I'm sure there will be a number of games where I will be unable to escape Uro until later in the game. I'm willing to accept that inconsistency. I've decided to cut to 2 Uro in my 80 card deck anyway. Uro is much less of a necessity for me than it is for a typical Snowko deck.

I don't care what the Stryfo deck is doing, like at all. The 4c Yorion lists that run Oko and splash white are far more relevant to my list.

I'll be forging ahead with this deck just fine, thanks.

EDIT: I think you're problem here is that you are trying to compare the 2 decks based on which one can grind better. Obviously the Dack list has more card advantage built in, whether durdly or not, and then expecting that the deck that can grind better is the better deck or something. The Stryfo list has to be grindier, because its primary ways to win the game are an evasionless 6/6 or a 4/5 flyer, and so it has to Czech Pile the opponent out of resources in order to secure most wins. I don't have to rely on being all-in on my ability to grind because I can either just kill my opponent quickly with an indestructible 20/20 flier, or create a swarm of 2/2's every turn in the midrange "mirror." The softness to Karakas in the Stryfo list is also something I would be looking into if I was him.

Also, if you're going to insist on the slowness or clunkiness of Intuition without Exploration, can we take a minute to talk about how slow Punishing Fire and Cling to Dust are, especially without the acceleration that a deck like R/G Lands has? I've watched that Stryfo list on stream and it is way too durdly for my tastes.

Either way, quit comparing apples to oranges. Is this what the Food Chain guys felt like when they were first working on their deck?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kombatkiwi

If you're a combo deck why are you playing all of oko/fow/TS/plow and talking about wastelocking eldrazi players

You can't be reasoned with because you have a terminal case of Giftsplayer brainworms (I have fallen victim to this a lot trying to brew decks in modern), where no matter what flaw is criticised you can point to some card in the "4c cards-from-my-binder" decklist which supposedly addresses the problem.

Eventually you will test the deck and find that either
A) The pieces don't all fit together as neatly as you thought they did, or
B) The deck runs about as smoothly as you expected but you underestimated how strong the rest of the meta decks are

... or C) I was wrong and the deck is fine, but I'll cross that bridge when (if) I get to it

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I'm a midrange combo deck in the same sort of fashion as Food Chain or Aluren are. Since I cannot kill as fast as Storm, Reanimator, etc, but since the combo portion itself is so compact, that's the directiom that the deck has evolved into. The Snowko shell felt like the perfect shell to tuck the Intuition/Loam combo into.

I'm fine with criticism, and I've already made modifications based on some of the things said, but you're literally saying that the deck is bad and won't work without many arguments that sound logical to me, and most definitely without having tried it to even have an actual basis for said arguments.

The pieces fit together just fine. The major criticisms you're addressing are:

1) Mana consistency due to the colorless sources.

*This is addressed by having cantrips and other draw effects, Astrolabe, and Intuition/Loam. Escaping Uro consistently is a valid argument, but it's literally 2 cards in an 80 card deck. For the record, most 4c Yorion lists run 26 lands, based on the mtgtop8 lists that I've looked at.

2) Intuition is clunky because it costs 3 mana, requires an additional two more mana to cast Life from the Loam, and then an additional two more mana to activate Stage.

*This is addressed by having Exploration. In situations without Exploration, there are options depending on the matchup. Going for Field is still fine in midrange matchups without Exploration; going for Depths is fine in matchups where killing with a 20/20 on turn 6+ is still good enough; going for Uro + whatever is fine as plan C if the other two kills will not impact the board fast enough.

3) Exploration is card disadvantage, which clashes with the fact that the deck is trying to grind out card advantage, without cards to recoup the card disadvantage.

*This point makes little sense, considering that there are cards in this deck that recoup the card disadvantage, most midrange decks already have some amount of card disadvantage (Forces, Assassin's Trophy, etc), and I don't need the card advantage as badly due to the ability to just kill the opponent quickly instead of having to durdle all game.

With that being said, I haven't underestimated the meta, I understand the meta just fine. I believe you're the one who is underestimating this deck, but I'm at the point where I'm done arguing with you.

If you have suggestions or criticisms to try and help improve the deck, that's fine. I've already made a couple of tweaks from our discussion (3 Oko 2 Uro, Waterlogged Grove), and I'm not opposed to making more. But if you're just going to sit here and talk shit and tell me to play some other deck because this one sucks, with zero playtesting and pure speculation, I kindly ask that you go fuck off somewhere else.

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EDIT: I think you're problem here is that you are trying to compare the 2 decks based on which one can grind better. Obviously the Dack list has more card advantage built in, whether durdly or not, and then expecting that the deck that can grind better is the better deck or something. The Stryfo list chooses to be grindier, because its primary ways to win the game are an evasionless 6/6 or a 4/5 flyer, or strix beats, or dack emblem, or pfire recursion and so it does Czech Pile the opponent out of resources in order to secure most wins. My ability to grind is much worse because I am playing 4 explorations in my deck for some reason and I have a manabase that isn't commensurate with casting my spells.

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^ This is how to actually spin that, but again you have Gifts-brain so you can't see it

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The 4c Yorion lists that run Oko and splash white are far more relevant to my list.

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https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/3372693#online
- 28 lands including 4 wasteland, but including 4 utopia sprawl as extra coloured sources and 4 GSZ to get dryad arbor, 0 exploration
- No field/depths plan, no exploration despite playing Ramunap excavator and elvish reclaimer

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/3369276#online
- 28 lands, no colourless (admittedly the requirements are a little more ambitious here because it's trying to splash red cards out of the sb), 0 exploration
- no GSZ just playing more interaction instead like the stryfo deck

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Either way, quit comparing apples to oranges. Is this what the Food Chain guys felt like when they were first working on their deck?

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The pieces of food chain all fit together to make sense
- A manabase that can cast bug spells
- Griffins already have synergy with some kind of midrange BUG deck because you can pitch them to force and get them back later
- Griffins already have synergy with some kind of midrange BUG deck if DRS is legal because you can eat Griffins and get them back later
- In a particular meta you can take advantage of the fact that Griffins are effectively plow-immune
- Manipulate fate for griffins is a very strong grind angle that is unique to the deck
- In matchups where grinding isn't effective you have the option of a combo kill with Foodchain

The only objection to foodchain is therefore that it might be too clunky and slow even with the combo (which is probably true without DRS, which is why it doesn't really perform anymore).

And you can apply the same process to your deck if you want
- Intuition already has synergy with some kind of midrange BUGw Yorion deck because you can put uro in the graveyard
- Inutition for loam is a strong grind angle that is unique to the deck
- In matchups where grinding isn't effective you have the option of a combo kill with depths

So the only "apparent" objection to your deck is that it also might be too clunky and slow, but there are the additional objections that:
- Exploration makes no sense
- The manabase is too greedy

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but you're literally saying that the deck is bad and won't work

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Like I said in my first reply, maybe a Yorion deck with intuition (instead of e.g. GSZ or Dack Fayden) has potential, even though in a lot of situations it's going to be 2U get fucked by Veil of Summer, but I think you have to fix the manabase and more importantly cut exploration.

You probably have to accept that the Depths combo is too clunky/slow to make a half-midrange-half-combo list work (just like Food Chain apparently in this meta, when is the last time that deck got any results), and that it trainwrecks the manabase. Even if it is ok to play Depths/Stage as 1ofs just to cheese people with Loam you still 100% have to cut exploration

You should also probably add at least 1 cling to dust (most of these decks are already using it and it plays well with Intuition)

Maybe the manabase needs tweaked a bit more to improve consistency, but I haven't ran into the major issues you're talking about. My splash colors are super light with only 6 cards each (in an 80 card deck), and the only spell with ridiculous requirements are escaping the 2 Uro's. There are colorless in many of the spell costs, there is Astrolabe to convert the colorless into colored, there is Intuition/Loam to fix the mana, and there are cantrips as well. Maybe try it before you blindly criticise it?

I don't care what you want to link as an example. The most common ones are on 26 lands, and look pretty standard, with just more copies of the usual fare.

I was only drawing comparisons to Food Chain based on concept of archetype, not based on that decks viability in the current metagame.

I don't understand what your problem is with Exploration, but you're absolutely wrong. The card accelerates my early game, and dramatically improves my ability to kill the opponent once an Intuition resolves. Should I cut them for Vantress Gargoyle? I'm done beating a dead horse on this issue.

Intuition being countered by Veil of Summer is just what it is.

Cling to Dust is interesting as a maindeck out to some graveyard situations, but it's probably too slow to affect the graveyard from an Intuition pile, and not strong enough otherwise for me to consider cutting anything else from the maindeck at this time.

Are you feeling light on graveyard hate? I see a couple Surgicals and Ashiok in the sideboard, I wonder if there is a way to find a useful piece that performs other functions. Cling to Dust is one way to do that, but as an actual hate piece it's pretty weak. It offers a lot of extra value, which is what the SnOko/stew piles want but I think you can operate with something stronger given the Intuition/Snapcaster versatility. I think these are pretty spicy:

Unmoored Ego
Scavenging Ooze


I don't know if you have enough green to support Ooze, but it seems like it would be an absolute monster against opposing Uros and Rug decks in general.

Just some thoughts, I was a big fan of the Mind Harvester deck back in the day so this has some great nostalgia.

I think I'm generally okay with my graveyard hate right now. Hogaak is tricky because Surgical itself doesn't always do enough due to the diversity of their threats, but 2 Surgical and 1 Ashiok feels like enough for everything else.

For Hogaak specifically, the white splash for Swords to Plowshares and Karakas, especially in tandem with Snapcaster Mage, certainly helps improve the matchup. Snapcaster and Coatl surprise blocking to remove Bridges is also helpful. Force of Negation countering Cabal Therapy can slow them down a bit by preventing them from sacrificing Supplier. The fact that I can turn the corner quickly with Marit Lage against decks like Hogaak goes a long way too.

I'm not really a big fan of Unmoored Ego, but it could be good against combo decks.

Ooze is cool, but a bit too slow to affect Reanimator, and pretty vulnerable for dealing with threats like Uro against decks with lots of removal.

Surgical is bad against Delver, but I'm fine with attacking that deck from other angles.

Overall, I'm happy with my graveyard hate right now.

You had me at "It's the Fear" 2.0.