No Bacon, Ham and Sausage AKA Vegan Lumberjack Breakfast

I started a new thread for this because it deviates from the other NicFit-Hulk thread and is not a direction the OP wants to go, but still seems interesting to explore.

BUT FIRST, THE NAME!

This deck is Orcish Lumberjack + NicFit-Protein Hulk with Cephalid Breakfast combo finish.

"Lumberjack Breakfast" is the name for an extreme version of Eggs and Bacon, usually a large breakfast feast involving multiple meats like Bacon, Ham and Sausage.

Adding Natural Order (NO) makes this "No Bacon, Ham and Sausage", a breakfast alternative for a vegan lumberjack! The deck's engine of sacrificing green creatures and forests is a lot like chowing down on plants.

AtLeastItMakesMoreSenseThanTinFins.dec


//Creatures: 22
4 Veteran Explorer
3 Orcish Lumberjack
3 Allosaurus Shepherd
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
1 Wild Cantor
1 Nomads en-Kor
1 Cephalid Illusionist
1 Thassa's Oracle
1 Fauna Shaman
1 Fiend Artisan
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Endurance
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth
1 Protean Hulk
1 Progenitus

//Spells: 18
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Culling the Weak
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Thoughtseize
4 Natural Order

//Lands: 20
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wooded Foothills
2 Prismatic Vista
2 Bayou
1 Taiga
3 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Mountain
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Dryad Arbor

//Sideboard: 15
1 Allosaurus Shepherd
1 Collector Ouphe
1 Klothys, God of Destiny
1 Endurance
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Grist, the Hunger Tide
1 Questing Beast
3 Carpet of Flowers
3 Assassin's Trophy
2 Thoughtseize


Not only does this have a goofy old-Legacy name, but it can do things like combo out Progenitus, combo-kill with Hulk into Thassa, or beatdown with 5/3s.

1) Natural Order + green creature -> Progenitus/Hulk

2) Orcish Lumberjack -> Titania or GSZ for Titania -> return fetch -> 5/3 token -> Dryad Arbor -> sac Arbor to Cabal Therapy -> 5/3 token

3) Veteran Explorer + Culling the Weak/sac -> Titania or GSZ for Titania

4) Veteran Explorer/Lumberjack + Culling the Weak -> Protean Hulk or GSZ for Hulk

5) Hulk + sac outlet -> Nomads + Illusionist + Thassa + Safekeeper -> win (with Safekeeper to protect the combo)

6) Fiend Artisan + dorks + many turns -> Nomads + Illusionist + Thassa -> win

7) Hulk + sac outlet -> Titania + Sylvan Safekeeper -> return fetch -> many 5/3s

8) Fiend Artisan + Veteran Explorer -> Veteran Explorer + lands -> more lands -> GSZ for Hulk/Titania

9) Veteran Explorer + Culling the Weak -> 4GG for Allosaurus Shepherd beatdown

In total the deck has 10 creature tutors. Fauna Shaman and Fiend Artisan help with toolbox access while also getting rid of creatures from unwanted zones (discard combo piece from hand or sacrifice creature in play). Endurance can move combo pieces from graveyard to library for Hulk.

Wild Cantor helps Hulk piles if one of the pieces is stuck in hand. It's also a cheap green creature that works as fodder for the other engines.

Allosaurus Shepherd makes most of the deck uncounterable, protecting the combos and fatties and toolbox answers. It also breaks through Chalice @ 1.

The SB is full of toolbox green creatures.

I tried out a few games against UR Delver and 8cast and it worked pretty smoothly. Being able to pivot between combo and beatdown was good.

Progenitus won me many games. Everyone is leaning on Karakas to answer fatties due to the meta (Marit Lage, Uro, Ragavan, Emrakul, Griselbrand). Progenitus sneaks through.

As said in the other thread, this it the direction i was taking too.

I have... really not any changes to do, so strange for me ahahah. I will probably play a different side though, seems light against grave
No Library in the side? You rely on allosaurus only against control?
A md Grist too, it's also sac engine

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Memories of the Time

As said in the other thread, this it the direction i was taking too.

---

Yeah, I just started a different thread because the OP had a different direction in mind. Hulk + Ooze + Summoner's Pact + Traverse are all non-negotiable for that build, and this cuts 3 of those 4 cards.

After testing the version you posted and the one I posted there, I ended up cutting Summoner's Pact too. I found it too high-variance and unnecessary with this different game plan. A couple times I had multiple Summoner's Pact stuck dead in hand. Other times it was underwhelming. With LED gone, there's less need for 0 mana tutors. I'm considering 2 copies of Living Wish or Diabolic Intent. Otherwise I'm just on GSZ and Natural Order.

I added Progenitus as another wincon for Natural Order, in case you don't have a sacrifice outlet for Hulk. In testing that made it a lot simpler to come back and win games out of nowhere.

I also changed the Hulk kill from Lark+Body Double+Familiar to Thassa. It takes fewer combo slots and frees up more toolbox slots, which plays better with the deck pivoting into a fair plan. Unlike other packages (like Kiki+Guide), this one dodges graveyard hate and avoids the combat step, so it attacks under a different axis than Progenitus.

I also upped the number of Allosaurus Rider from a 1-of tool to a 4-of core piece. In testing, making everything uncounterable was amazing protection. You don't have to worry as much about committing a lot of resources to Natural Order or Titania or Hulk if they can't be countered. Redundant copies are not a problem since you want a lot of green dorks to sacrifice, then late game they attack as 5/5s. I had an opponent FoW Culling the Weak because it was the only card they could interact with (but it didn't stop the sacrifice trigger). Otherwise Allosaurus draws all the spot removal, which means the other creatures are more likely to stick. It can be boarded out against nonblue.

The other notable changes I made were adding Fauna Shaman and Endurance to help move creatures away from unwanted zones and back into the library, to save the Hulk combo or Progenitus. Fauna Shaman also helps the deck play a grindy toolbox game, like Fiend Artisan. This version is somewhere between NicFit and MOST with Hulk and NoPro combo finishes.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Memories of the Time

I will probably play a different side though, seems light against grave
No Library in the side? You rely on allosaurus only against control?
A md Grist too, it's also sac engine

---

MD Grist seems good. I might cut a land or the 4th Culling. I found 18 too few but am getting a bit flooded with 20.

Against graveyard-using control (Bant, Lands, 4c Loam) there's 2 Endurance + Klothys. Against graveyard-based combo there's 2 Endurance + 8 discard spells. For Reanimator I would bring in Trophy too. Maybe a 3rd Endurance is needed but I'll start there for now. I'm reluctant to play 4x Leyline. It has no synergy with the rest of the deck and costs a lot of space.

Against control there's 4 Allosaurus + 3 Carpet + 1 Klothys + discard spells + fair creatures. I board out Culling the Weak into a grindier fair plan. The Hulk combo can be easily boarded out too, since it only takes up 4 slots now.

https://i.ibb.co/CsVDYWj/2022-01-23-...ce-Overlay.png

This image summarizes my first league with the deck :v in a world: envy of Brainstorm.

To expand, i've lost at least a game every match due to flooding or to drawing all the combo pieces in a row (this is the second time that those things happen simultaneosly, i had to take a screenshot).

I really think that the decision of playing BG without U, playing veteran etc, can't really be justified outside idealistic reasons (i mean, they are my fav ones, but we have to establish/agree on that).

A flexible Natural Order/Gsz Bug deck seems promising, and some cards like Culling the Weak would benefit from having a way better chance to have them in hand when you need. Same thing (and problems resolved) with the combo. But yeah, at that point we are going toward a BUG Nic Fit goodstuff deck with a probably worse Hulk plan that we don't really need. All my wins was due to prog or titania btw

To some degree that looks like unlucky variance. But yes that is a downside to running combo slots. Keeping the Hulk package compact should help. This one is only 3 cards. The Body Double-Lark package takes more slots but it does run more cards that are not dead outside the combo (Carrion Feeder, Cauldron Familiar). Maybe that's better.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Memories of the Time

To expand, i've lost at least a game every match due to flooding or to drawing all the combo pieces in a row (this is the second time that those things happen simultaneosly, i had to take a screenshot).

---

Was this game 1 or G2/3? Against control? How do you board in those matches?

Against blue control post-board I keep 0 of those 4 cards in the deck. I board out those cards for exactly that reason. They lead to higher variance and dead draws over a long grindy game. I keep more combo stuff against other decks, and I keep more grindy stuff against control.

Do you run Fauna Shaman? In game 1 that card helps me a lot with converting dead combo pieces and redundant ramp into valuable threats.

Flooding is a risk. I try to run a lot of mana sinks (GSZ, Fiend Artisan, Allosaurus). Maybe more are needed like Hexdrinker.

GB decks have to deal with more variance than blue decks, but we can mitigate some with tutors and mana sinks.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Memories of the Time

All my wins was due to prog or titania btw

---

Yeah, most of my wins are from those too. Realistically Hulk is the weakest part of the deck. For green ramp, Titania's a cheaper payoff to hardcast. For Natural Order, (uncounterable) Progenitus wins the game with fewer conditions than Hulk.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Memories of the Time

I really think that the decision of playing BG without U, playing veteran etc, can't really be justified outside idealistic reasons (i mean, they are my fav ones, but we have to establish/agree on that).

---

Once you're playing a BUG creature-combo shell with Brainstorm and no Veteran, it's a bad version of Aluren. The main thing going for this archetype is that it carves out unique design space. Otherwise there are more consistent creature combos. You could optimize a BUG build, but it would mean cutting Hulk and then evaluating whether Natural Order or Aluren is the 4-mana green spell you want to resolve. So... yeah, the justification for this is idealistic reasons.

You're right in that more wins come from Progenitus and Titania. Hulk combo is the worst part. I board out Hulk combo so much, we could just maindeck better cards and then free up SB space.
Ex:
-5 Hulk package (Hulk, Thassa, Nomads, Cephalid, Cantor)
-4 Culling the Weak
+3 maindeck Assassin's Trophy
+2 maindeck Sylvan Library
+4 maindeck toolbox (Hexdrinker, Scavenging Ooze, Grist, Questing Beast)

That frees up a bunch of SB space and cuts maindeck dead draws, without really affecting the Titania and Progenitus wins.

But it would be fun to get something with Hulk working. We need a compact Hulk package with few dead cards:
Melira, Sylvok Outcast + Murderous Redcap = infinite damage (with a Hulk sac outlet like Carrion Feeder already in play) ?

Edit:
That would mean a package of
2 Carrion Feeder
2 Viscera Seer
1 Melira, Sylvok Outcast
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Murderous Redcap
1 Protean Hulk

Hulk + Carrion Feeder/Viscera Seer -> Melira + Redcap -> infinite damage
Hulk + 1-time sac -> Melira + Finks + Carrion -> infinite life + 9999/9999 creature

It's more slots, but every card is castable in a BG shell. No awkward dead draws.

Draft list...

//Creatures: 23
4 Veteran Explorer
3 Orcish Lumberjack
3 Allosaurus Shepherd
2 Carrion Feeder
2 Viscera Seer
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
1 Fauna Shaman
1 Fiend Artisan
1 Melira, Sylvok Outcast
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Murderous Redcap
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth
1 Protean Hulk
1 Progenitus

//Spells: 18
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Thoughtseize
3 Culling the Weak
4 Natural Order

//Lands: 19
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Bayou
2 Taiga
3 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Dryad Arbor


That has much fewer dead draws, reducing draw variance for a nonblue deck. It can assemble the Melira combo piece-by-piece with Fiend Artisan or Fauna Shaman, but Hulk does it all at once.

Edit2: Tested some games against Delver and Jeskai Control. Hulk kills came up more often with this version. One game I went NO -> Hulk, then NO (on Hulk) -> Redcap + Carrion Feeder + Safekeeper (for protection) -> get Melira with Natural Order -> win. This let me go off through multiple pieces of removal and without a sac outlet already in play. Progenitus would have been too slow. Another game I went NO -> Hulk -> sac to Phyrexian Tower -> use mana to cast the missing piece. With the Melira combo, you can hardcast or tutor the pieces. I find that makes it easier to go off.

Lumberjack + red mana has been a bit clunky (opening up Wasteland vulnerability or leaving you stuck on basic Mountain). I also miss toolbox creatures since the combo takes more space. Maybe -3 Lumberjack +1 Culling + 2 toolbox creatures (Rec Sage and Grist)?

My thought is:
Culling is a combo card, needed if we want to have hardcasting/gsz hulk a possibility. I agree that it's fun, i was suggesting Brainstorm to keep the Hulk combo package.
Otherwise we are a NicFit with Natural Order. Nothing wrong about that, but i mean, we could discuss it in another place.

Here i think that if we want to keep the hulk package, the Cephalid combo is the best one by far simply bc it evades both grave and spot removal, something really huge (and the main reason to play this combo). Melira plus other things can totally be a B plan since you can both hardcast them or finding them with gsz/artisan etc.

So, to summarize, i think we have two ways for this deck (so hulk package etc):
-BGu for probably just 4 brainstorm 4 ponder 1 Uro something like that. We can plan the following turns without relying on the topdeck and glue all the different part of the deck togheter.
-BG(r) with many sacrifice effect to have the possibility of assembling the combo without Hulk. Like a second Melira, a Varolz maybe, something like that. I agree on cutting red btw, Hexdrinker is cute and could be a possibility as another angle. That would be the grindest version so + toolbox - acceleration (like the last part of your post). I think that this version need 2-3 Sylvan library btw

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Memories of the Time

My thought is:
Culling is a combo card, needed if we want to have hardcasting/gsz hulk a possibility.

---

Agree. I keep Culling if Hulk is in the deck (for hardcast/gsz), otherwise I cut Culling. Its value is ramping to 7-8 mana. Titania and NO don't need BBBB.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Memories of the Time

Otherwise we are a NicFit with Natural Order. Nothing wrong about that, but i mean, we could discuss it in another place.

---

Yeah. I find the NicFit+NO more consistent, but it would be nice to focus on Hulk.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Memories of the Time

Here i think that if we want to keep the hulk package, the Cephalid combo is the best one by far simply bc it evades both grave and spot removal, something really huge (and the main reason to play this combo). Melira plus other things can totally be a B plan since you can both hardcast them or finding them with gsz/artisan etc.

---

That's why I started with the Cephalid combo. On paper it seemed better. But then there are games like your screenshot. The Cephalid combo has uncastable cards. The nice thing about Melira is you can cast all the pieces, no dead draws. You can also assemble the combo without Hulk (Artisan, etc.). The best part is never having useless hands like your pic. But it takes up more space.

There are 2 directions we could go, like you said.
1) blue cantrips to fix draws
2) use a combo with fewer dead draws (I think this is where Melira combo shines)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Memories of the Time

So, to summarize, i think we have two ways for this deck (so hulk package etc):
-BGu for probably just 4 brainstorm 4 ponder 1 Uro something like that. We can plan the following turns without relying on the topdeck and glue all the different part of the deck togheter.

---

In order to run 4 Brainstorm 4 Ponder, it needs to be UGb or UBg (or BUG). Blue can't be a splash. The Xerox engine requires 8 blue fetch + 6 blue lands minimum. That's awkward because NicFit wants a GB core. With blue there's tension between reducing green (Veteran Explorer ramp) or reducing black (cut Culling the Weak ramp), both of which make casting Hulk difficult. Full BUG (all duals) is difficult with Veteran.

UGb seems better, with NO-Pro/Hulk as the main plan and Uro backup.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Memories of the Time

-BG(r) with many sacrifice effect to have the possibility of assembling the combo without Hulk. Like a second Melira, a Varolz maybe, something like that. I agree on cutting red btw, Hexdrinker is cute and could be a possibility as another angle. That would be the grindest version so + toolbox - acceleration (like the last part of your post). I think that this version need 2-3 Sylvan library btw

---

Yeah, this should probably be BG with more toolbox and Sylvan draw.

How about this as focusing on the vet culling engine. Much faster than your build but none of the hulk jank of the original thread. The template for the deck is old gitaxian probe TES where we go t1 discard t2 ooze (aka green empty).
The deck has to be a t2 deck imo since you can’t reasonably pay for pact if you go off t1. Blex was added as a plan C but the rest of the draw 4s were cut. The final key insight was hidden herbalist & manamorphose to fix for GGG.

draft

4 Verdant
3 Bayou
3 Swamp
3 Forest

4 Veteran Explorer
4 Culling the Weak
4 Dark Ritual
4 aeve, primal ooze
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Manamorphose

4 Thoughtseize
4 Cabal Therapy

4 Summoners Pact
1 Vine Dryad
1 Blex, Vexing Pest
1 Hidden Herbalist

The deck is probably worse g1 than oops, but avoids a ton of hate.

Yeah, if you dump the Hulk plan (and NO/GSZ plan) it's easier to play vet+culling storm with fewer dead draws.

Why not play 4x Peer Into the Abyss as plan A, with tutor into Ooze as plan B?

Summoner's Pact isn't necessary unless you rely on Lion's Eye Diamond. Pact is best with "win this turn" lines (Hulk), while Ooze is a "pass the turn" line so you always have to pay the upkeep. Pact+LED is good because you can use LED mana to cast Ooze while tutoring for 0 mana, or you can use LED to pay the upkeep. Without LED you basically need 4 lands on turn 2, which is only possible with Veteran Explorer every single game (unlikely). You could play Green Sun's Zenith to get Explorer more often. You could also play Orcish Lumberjack as "backup Explorer" (pays Pact upkeep if it lives).

But that seems like a flimsy plan A. We could take some pressure off the deck by having a non-Ooze line (Peer) or not using Pact.


//Lands: 14
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Bayou
3 Forest
3 Swamp
1 Dryad Arbor

//Artifacts: 10
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
2 Chrome Mox

//Creatures: 10
4 Veteran Explorer
4 Xantid Swarm
1 Tinder Wall
1 Aeve, Progenitor Ooze

//Spells: 26
4 Dark Ritual
4 Culling the Weak
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Living Wish
3 Diabolic Intent
1 Tendrils of Agony
4 Peer Into The Abyss

//Sideboard: 15
1 Aeve, Progenitor Ooze
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Vexing Shusher
1 Elvish Spirit Guide
1 Blex, Vexing Pest
1 Plague Engineer
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Karakas
2 Thoughtseize
2 Abrupt Decay
3 Assassin's Trophy


The Wishboard is a bit rough, but you get the idea.

With Vet + Culling (and GSZ into Arbor/Tinder Wall), this deck has even more ramp than ANT and TES, so casting Peer seems feasible.

Xantid Swarm attacking and then sacrificing for value seems strong. Otherwise the deck could even go up to 4 Tinder Wall. Or have some cute sac fodder like one of those 1/1s that makes a 1/1 on death.

I like this build better, since LED is so broken. Swarm exposes you to plow so I am not sure if it is better than thoughtseize. What about grief since you can sac it to cull with the evoke trigger on the stack?

Yeah, I don't love enabling Plow. I just think the deck needs another 1 drop to have enough sac fodder for Culling and Diabolic Intent. Otherwise you rely too much on Explorer. That was an issue in other versions I tested.

Allosaurus Shepherd, Wild Cantor, or Tinder Wall are other options. I don't love Shepherd if we're off the NO/Titania plan (doesn't protect Peer). Grief works too but must be played on the combo turn. Maybe that isn't a downside.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by FTW

Yeah, I don't love enabling Plow. I just think the deck needs another 1 drop to have enough sac fodder for Culling and Diabolic Intent. Otherwise you rely too much on Explorer. That was an issue in other versions I tested.

Allosaurus Shepherd, Wild Cantor, or Tinder Wall are other options. I don't love Shepherd if we're off the NO/Titania plan (doesn't protect Peer). Grief works too but must be played on the combo turn. Maybe that isn't a downside.

---

Yeah, and Grief+Cabal is cool. Agree that i don't want swarm in the mainboard. Can we use peer as profittably as other decks and close the game in the same turn easily?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by FTW

Or have some cute sac fodder like one of those 1/1s that makes a 1/1 on death.

---

For example Blisterpod was on one of my early lists for a Culling the Weak+Veteran Explorer style decks, but it was not great and too cute.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Memories of the Time

Yeah, and Grief+Cabal is cool. Agree that i don't want swarm in the mainboard. Can we use peer as profittably as other decks and close the game in the same turn easily?

---

To use Peer profitably:

• Need enough Initial Mana Sources (Lotus Petal, Mox)
• Need rituals to boost mana (Dark Rit, Culling, LED)
• Need tutors to find wincon

I tested a few. After Peer I couldn't always get Tendrils but in the other cases I could always make Ooze. The choke points were creature fodder and ways to find Tendrils. For example, I wouldn't have enough fodder for both Culling the Weak & Diabolic Intent, but I would need Diabolic to find the Tendrils and Culling for mana, so then I would have to take a Living Wish line instead (Ooze). I would draw many green creatures, but short on G mana to cast them.

I would add 3rd Mox to boost initial mana sources.
I would also adjust the tutor configuration so it's easier to find Tendrils. 4 Diabolic Intent seems bad, since the deck is already tight on fodder (Grief helps but doesn't work with Diabolic Intent). So maybe Wishclaw or something else.