http://www.starcitygames.com/php/new...cle/13746.html
Talk about my excellent picture and hilarious writer's biography and the article(if you must).
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http://www.starcitygames.com/php/new...cle/13746.html
Talk about my excellent picture and hilarious writer's biography and the article(if you must).
Nicely written. And Orcish Settlers is the t3ch.
Many of the basics were well covered, but so many flaws..... You still have a horrendous combo matchup and Choke does nothing to amend that. Choke helps vs Thresh (which is already a pretty positive matchup) and decks you won't see if you are having a successful day. Combo should most definitely be a concern as both the quality & number of combo decks increases in Legacy. That is the best reason that most SotF decks go to 3 colors (G/r/x) - they have to do so to compete effectively. That is an article by itself, though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pinder
I will address the points about your goblin matchup later (your deck is very susceptible to the early Goblin kill & not so likely to last until Turn 8-9 in a condition to stabilize). I will also sneer at your example of a Thresh matchup in which you drop good spells for exactly the amount of mana you have on the table & never see Daze/Force/Counter at all. Yeah, you might win those games....but they are atypical. Your comment about playing around Daze later in the article was much coser to the reality & necessity of how to play the matchup....and you have no 1 drops other than Rootwallas.... As for now, mandatory 2 day road trip followed by 40 hours of work in a 64 hour span..... but we will continue this.
PS Orcish Settlers is indeed amazing tech...and it's been in use in Survival for years.
I skimmed through it and it was pretty good. But Scrumdogg has been playing Settlers for years I remember the first tourny he ran that thing and combined with rofellos turn 4 Your opponent never had more than one land. I will do some testing with it and post later.
Your article and the "Unlocking Legacy" series in general are really good, keep it up!
While I agree with the principles of Survival you laid out, I disagree with the construction of your deck.
This assumption is wrong. Going 3-colors allows you to gain essential options you cannot have with only 2-colors. STE and proper use of Fetches provide you with a manabase that is not suscepticle to Wasteland.Quote:
Originally Posted by article
Furthermore, I think you chose the wrong color to splash. The best splash-colors to reach the midgame are Black&White, not Red.
This is because you gain access to Pernicious Deed, Swords to Plowshares, Loxodon Hierarch and Cabal Therapy, which are far better in assisting you to get to the midgame than something like Anger, FTK, Pyromancer or Orcish Settlers. The powerlevel is also significantly higher, which allows you to fight an even better game without Survival.
I'm glad other people are liking STE.
Less survival more on combo(AKA TES).
Honestly... I didn't like it. Alot of it was misinformation. ATS didn't leave the metagame because of Dragon and Foodchain. ATS was around DURING those decks, and was tier 1.5. That whole sequence he drew out was completely wrong. Also that stuff about Aether vial? Why no Spore Frog? Infinite recursion of insta-cast critter fog locks out so so so many games against goblins. He never mentioned Seedborn muses inclusion with Tradewind. He never mentioned Rofellos' interaction with Quirion Ranger.
"ATS would be dominant in Legacy until it was outpaced by Dragon and Food Chain Goblins. It lost its hold on the metagame because Legacy used to be composed of mostly combo and prison decks modeled on Vintage decks."
Bull. That's such a freaking guess. It was 50/50 with Dragon because of Stifle and countermagic, and 40/60 against Foodchain first of all. Losing it's hold to combo and prison decks modeled after Vintage? Are you joking? All of the acceleration pieces that vintage had were banned before the BR lists came out. Are you talking about other vintage combo decks? Mask/Naught? Didn't think so. Mask was about the least of ATS' worries. And prison? ATS was one of the only decks that wMUD actually feared because of it's inate ability to generate mana around lock pieces.
What about landstill and the general ATS player population being unable to beat it? What about the difficulty of playing the deck to it's full potential? Why were there, at one time, only 2 respectable ATS players?
What does his list do against combo except shit the bed? He plays no disruption at ALL for anything other than creature based aggro, other than maindeck Chalice... WTF? You play chalice so you can play chalice for one and lose all of your good acceleration in an effort to playing a good game against combo. You can't play Birds (Which are vulnerable, but it's BOP. It dies sometimes) or Quirion Ranger which IMO is even more important that Birds for it's interaction with Rofellos and just going freaking nuts in one turn.
So his optimal play is.
1st turn. Vial
2nd turn. Chalice for 1?
With second turn chalice for 1, is it better than Survival? When given the choice, would you play Chalice turn 2 over Survival? Doesn't make much sense to me. You lose ANOTHER turn of development against a deck that may or may not be affected by a Chalice at 1. Granted, you could lay Survival turn 3, and with an Anger in hand, Survival out anger for Rofellos and Vial him in, which is very strong, but without Quirrion ranger you only give him one activation per turn, and your strongest grab on that turn is probably STE or Double Rootwalla on the opponents attack phase (Maybe holding mana for Witness against Survival removal). By that time, neither of those plays will have had a strong affect against Goblins or any form of Combo.
Pendlehaven? Let's make Rofellos weaker. Just for kicks.
Basically, I don't like the deck at all. On paper, it's more consistent, but you only worsened matchups, hardly improved any. I would much rather play eATS against Thresh than this, and most definitely play it against ANY form of combo, which is undeniably becoming more and more common.
Thumbs up for the concept. Thumbs down for the content.
Very well written article. You touched on a lot of good points that are often misunderstood by some of the less experienced Survival players, and I think the article will in turn help a lot of newer Survival players out. Also, I gotta give you props for Orcish Settlers. I actually tried this guy wayyyyy back in the day, but for some reason felt he was too mana intensive. I honestly don't know what I was thinking. In a deck that incorporates Rofellos (and more importantly, Quirion Ranger as well), Orcish Settlers is fucking Armageddon. That's nuts.
However, there are some flaws to your list and other things that kind of bug me:
- Lack of removal maindeck. You have a singleton Mogg Fanatic and Flametongue Kavu. Now, I know you mentioned that a player can feel free to go up to more in the article, but I think it would've been proper if you did in your list to not get a person confused into thinking they could get by with only that. Because truth be told, FTK is one of the strongest cards in the deck, and certainly one of the best draws you can get without Survival on the table. I would'nt be running anything less than 2 of them, and considering your base was R/G, I'd probably be running 3 (Or at least more Fanatics).
- Maindeck Goblin Pyromancer. Yea I know you have this entire gripe about the Goblins matchup, but generally Survival decks want to have 0 dead cards pre-board in as many matchups as possible. Basically, this guy is ass in every non-Goblins matchup. While it's the nuthigh against Goblins, I really don't think it warrants a maindeck slot. Sideboard though, go nuts. Go nuts.
- Only 1 Eternal Witness. This is something that really bothers me a lot. Witness is one of the best cards in the deck because of their ability to fight against control decks, yet you only run a single one. It's there for more than just getting back a fallen Survival. I'd really try more.
- Choke is a bad card in the sideboard. Your Threshold matchup is so insane already that it isn't even necessary, and it does virtually nothing against a Solidarity player. This should be a good anti-combo slot because of your miserable combo matchup, whether it be Pyrostatic Pillar or REB or something, but Choke is just awful.
- Game without Survival. Your deck really only has 2 cards that are what I consider "big draws" without Survival: Ravenous Baloth and Sylvan Library. Library can go a long way in a handful of matchups (just read my ancient ATS primer for details), and Baloth is certainly an efficient beater, but that's it. By midgame Basking Rootwalla's value dips a bit, and you can't rely to draw your 1of removal spell of FTK, so it's basically down to Baloths winning you the game or praying Sylvan Library resolves and can find a Survival. This is based off speculation because I haven't had the opportunity to test the deck, but that's my thoughts based purely on the decklist at hand.
Also, this isn't an issue or anything, but you've got some history mixed up regarding ATS. You state the deck fell from tier 1 when Dragon and FCG were in the ranks. Also for the record, it didn't have an awful matchup against either of those decks. They both weren't favorable, but ATS at that time ran Stifle and Force of Will, as well as a heluva lot of sideboard cards geared at those decks. But that was 1.5, not Legacy. Nowhere in there did you mention how the deck was single-handedly nominated the top deck in the format for about a year after Legacy for formed, you just sort of stopped before the B/r split.
Overall though, good work with this.
Doug, your article is very entertaining. Survival is an entertaining card to read/think about, so it was an excellent topic to cover. But you really dropped the ball by not even considering Welder Survival. I wrote about it to deafening silence last year here for reference.
It WILL drop a few games to IGGy combo, but Welder Survival done properly (no blue) makes Goblins and any aggro deck including Burn a virtual bye. And it owns a random field like nobody's business. That is its biggest strength. Your aversion to this deck makes the entire premise maybe not invalid, but weak. Yada, yada, yada graveyard hate, Welder is a 1/1, yada yada. All completely irrelevant. I have played literally dozens of tournaments with every Survival variant you mentioned and others. Against a non-Threshold opponent, none of them are as consistent or fast. I'm not saying the deck is the way to go (I don't play it competitively these days), but it if your research had involved this you would certainly have to consider it in the top contenders for pursuit.Quote:
Survival cannot be tuned to beat something specific while still retaining a hopeful matchup versus random and/or prevalent decks. It still dies to really fast aggro or burn. It will most likely drop one or two games to combo in a match.
Still a really fun read. But you have a gaping hole in your ability to persuade when you leave out really pertinent survival options like this.
Quote:
2. ATS was at one time a dominant force in 1.5, but it was well before the B/R changes, at a time when the format was far less developed. It lost prevalence over a year before the B/R split. At the time of the B/R split, the format was dominated by a triad, just as it is now. In fact, it's a strikingly similar one: Food Chain Goblins, U/W/R Landstill (with Nev's Disk and Mana Drain), and fully powered Dragon. The parallels are striking. Welder MUD was also popular, and was arguably tier 1 as well.
By this time, ATS was essentially nowhere to be seen. If you think ATS has problems dealing with Vial Goblins, consider the problems it faces against FCG and its turn 2 wins. Wasteland attacked the manabase, Fanatics and Sharpshooters killed mana critters, and Piledriver's Pro:Blue laughed in ol' Tradewind's face. Landstill had a slightly positive matchup against it as well, and Dragon's first turn wins gave it a favored matchup too. In short, it would be wrong to say that ATS was the dominant force in the format anywhere near the time of the B/R changes.
That's from GodzillA when he proofed my article. If you have a problem with my history, I impore you to take it up with him instead of me. I deferred to him because he knows what he's talking about from the period.
Regarding combo: of course it has a bad matchup versus combo. Of course, combo is nowhere in the metagame, despite what certain internet personalities might claim.
PT: Kobe: zero combo in T8
http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckd...obe&country=JP
TML Open: zero combo in T8
http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckd...ate=2006-09-20
D4D Day 2: 1 combo in T8 (and IGGy isn't a terrifying matchup, and I test with Bomholt so I feel like I know what I'm talking about here)
http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckd...num=0&limit=25
D4D Day 1: 1 combo in T8
http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckd...num=0&limit=25
It's like saying Goblins needs to have a plan against Life.dec.
I'll answer some more stuff later, I'm happy that the general response is good. If you hated it, I hope at least you got some use out of the appendix of creatures.
I think it is dangerous to assume that just because combo didn't top 8 a tournament or that it only took one slot that it is as absent as Life.dec
If you look further down in the standings (not even that far, 9-16 even) you will see alot of combo. Certaintly enough to give you the two losses that will put you in the 9-16 group as well.
Breakouts for the entire field
TML Open (the top 77 decks (Does anyone know when Anusein is planning on posting the other 20 or so decklists? And where are 53rd-55th place? werid.)) 7 Solidarity 3 Iggy Pop 1 Salvagers (14.3% Combo)
D4D 5 10-7-06 8 Solidarity 2 Iggy Pop 1 Belcher 2 Aluren 1 Enchantress (19.4% Combo)
D4D 6 10-8-06 6 Solidarity 2 Iggy Pop (14.5% Combo)
I didn't see any Life.dec though.
@hi-val - That's a rather inaccurate statement that will turn people off when and if they take your deck to a tournament and go 0-2 drop because they figured they didn't need a plan vs combo.
I'm not sure why you're referencing the list of events on SCG; it misses half the major events and then chooses to highlight Kobe, with less than 40 players. If we're going to include that we should include the first Meandeck Open, where I believe IGGy Pop won, and the GAGG where Enchantress got 2nd. Anwar's thread on the Metagame forum is more complete, though I think there's still a couple missing reports.
Obviously a bad combo match-up isn't enough to keep a deck down, but I don't think trying to artificially mitigate combo's presence in the format is the correct approach, especially since Survival has many available tools to combat most combo strategies.
It was interesting article, but I'd like to hear more on why you seem to dismiss more than 2 colors in Survival so automatically, as I agree with Bongo.
Also, everyone knows that ATS left the format because of Enchantress. Duh.
I thought it was because it lost to Landstill, Solidarity and Goblins.Quote:
Originally Posted by SpatulaOfTheAges
And then Landstill left because it lost to Solidarity, Goblins, Wombat, and its pilots being bored to death,
which then allowed Gro to come into the format since it can beat Solidarity, is about even with Goblins but loses to Landstill in perhaps one of the most boring matchups ever (though that can be said for just about any matchup that starts Landstill vs. )
As for the actual article.
I liked it but then again
Survival makes me happy in the pants.
Too bad Survival decks almost without exception lose to Goblins despite what their creators say.
And the Threshold matchup is never as good as they claim either, though with MD Chalice this might be the exception.
In 1.5, or in Legacy? I was talking about 1.5, because of the references to Dragon, Mud, and Mana Drain.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ewokslayer
Legacy, I was referring to when no one would touch ATS with a ten foot pole wrapped in a case of condoms.Quote:
Originally Posted by SpatulaOfTheAges
In 1.5 didn't Enchantress lose to a Goblin Welder swinging for 20 damage?
Ouch!Quote:
Too bad Survival decks almost without exception lose to Goblins despite what their creators say.
That was a poignant speculation. I gave up getting into serious discussion about Welder/Survival around here a very long time ago, so I will leave it at that.
And I went just about 50/50 with RGSA as well versus Goblins back in the day. Not great, but hardly an autoloss.
Actually Welder Survival tended to be one of the better Survival decks against Goblins, though the mana base tended to make it more of a crap shoot than most Welder players admitted.Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn
Was back in the day before or after Goblin King became a Goblin? After that the matchup kinda went down hill. Granted now most Goblin builds don't run Goblin King, but since combo exists and RG tends to suck against combo it has to run a third color which allows Goblins to LD it out. Generally.Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn
For the most part even without Goblin King Goblins is still favored preboard 40/60 ish.
Of course if they ever stop playing Port, RGSA can do a little happy dance because it can actually win again.
In Legacy, Goblins mainly drove it out. Landstill wasn't hot either. Then people started playing Humility and Pithing Needle. And fast combo. It was an ugly time for Survival.
In 1.5, it was a lot of things. I think Crucible hurt, since the ability to keep hitting your Taiga, which you know, stops your deck from sucking, was big.
Also, the Welder only hit for 8, thank you very much. There were some fetches and two Juggernaut swings in there.
Re: Goblins, that's really more true of RGSA than the controlish builds. I've found that the walls of ATS and the ability to counter some threats goes a lot farther than 4 mana beaters that still get Incinerated.
The walls were nice but they tended to cost two (EATS Tinder Wall addition and the occassional use of Tinder Wall by Mulletus in RGSA notwithstanding) which do a crappy job of blocking Lackey. Not to mention the fact that ATS had so few land. A fanatic and a wasteland could manascrew them for just about ever (or a unexpected Stifle for a Solidarity opponent. God damn that tournament was awesome (Bob's Dual Land Draft) until of course I lost to Bob the Belcher in the top 8 :frown: )Quote:
Originally Posted by SpatulaOfTheAges