BUG Not-Quite-Thresh, Not-Quite-Gro?
It’s not Threshold; it’s not Madness. It’s… Threshness?!
Yeah, yeah, corny title. Someone come up with a decent name for this pile, and that’ll change. :p
There’s been some question, over in Open, as to whether or not this still falls under the banner of BUG Threshold (Bughold? Uh ohz, stop me NOW!). In many respects, I would consider it the natural evolution of black Threshold variants, but that could well just be me. In any case, it’s clear that we’re dealing with a vastly re-tooled deck, and that therefore means that the play-style has also changed somewhat as a function of the cards. It also means that this deck is far from finalized, and requires a great deal of testing and optimizing before a proper primer and so on can be created for it.
So, what is this deck? Well, it’s BUG Threshold, but tooled to accommodate some new goodies from FS which have the added bonus of reducing the deck’s dependency on the graveyard, something to which I believe all Threshold lists aspire (at least, as much as possible). Basically, we begin by taking a standard UGW Threshold list (for convenience’s sake, I’ll just use the Counterbalance version that Bardo posted in the UGW Threshold post in the Metagame forum) and substituting in the obvious black counterparts:
4 Serum Visions
4 Mental Note
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
3 Counterbalance
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Swords to Plowshares ---> Ghastly Demise/Vendetta
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Werebear
4 Meddling Mage ---> ???
1 Mystic Enforcer ---> Tombstalker
4 Flooded Strand ---> 2
2 Polluted Delta ---> 4
2 Windswept Heath ---> Bayou?
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra ---> Underground Sea
2 Island
1 Forest
1 Plains ---> Swamp
Granted, a number of UGW lists differ from Bardo’s (particularly with regards to maindecking both Top and Counterbalance), and certainly the few black substitutions outlined above are from final or ideal; nevertheless, I wish to use the above list as an example for what is to follow, so that we may note not just the similarities that the list that I propose holds to its white and red cousins, but also so that we may acknowledge the fact that going black necessitates (okay, maybe that’s just me being arrogantly hopeful) that the deck be taken in a certain direction.
Given the above list of substitutions, one question obviously springs to mind: what does Threshold gain by a black splash? Clearly, it seems to lose out on some very points: notably, the deck’s control aspect is weakened by the absence of StP and Meddling Mage, neither of which has much of a black equivalent. Nevertheless, a black splash grants Threshold access to Engineered Plague to shore up the Goblins (and Countersliver! ;) ) match, and to Pernicious Deed for—well, for almost anything, really. Both of these are extremely strong tools, and alone they make a black splash worth considering. Threshold could also gain Dark Confidant, but I’ve excluded him for reasons that I shall explain momentarily. Threshold also gains a more favoured access to Dredge as a means of filling the graveyard (as opposed to cantrips). The advantage here being that spells and creatures with Dredge are re-usable and can actually do something, as opposed to cantrips. Lastly, in Future Sight black gains an Enforcer-like beatstick and access to Street Wraith. All in all, a fair list of goodies.
There is one more change worthy of note, however, and that is the arrival of Tarmogoyf. This Lhurgoyf has the potential to dwarf a Werebear in Threshold, and at a much faster rate. He is also fairly safe from graveyard removal (and here I’m thinking mainly of the all-too-common Tormod’s Crypt) since opponents’ graveyard also work to feed him.
These changes and possibilities, taken together, lead to a Threshold that is unlike any of its cousins: a Threshold that is far more aggressive than its colourful counterparts but that also assumes a stronger board position over time through a reduced reliance on counterspells and the increased presence of board-control elements. In fact, it has little choice but to opt for board control, since it loses one of Thresh’s best counterspells: Meddling Mage.
Indeed, it should be clear to those of you reading this that while the list that I am going to propose that we take as a shell differs (at first glance) substantially from the Threshold that we know and love, it is in fact little more than a series of substitutions that have subsequently been tweaked to yield a greater synergy. Without further ado:
1 Island
2 Swamp
1 Forest
2 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
3 Tropical Island
4 Mox Diamond
4 Wild Mongrel
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Nimble Mongoose
3 Tombstalker
3 Life from the Loam
4 Ghastly Demise
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
2 Pernicious Deed
3 Serum Visions
2 Brainstorm
3 Mental Note
Allow me to being the explanations with a disclaimer: I make absolutely no claim that this list is optimal or even close to it. While I’ve done some testing, I’ve not done nearly as much as I have with some of the other decks that I enjoy playing (Pride Parade, Countersliver, etc.), and so there are still a lot of questions that can only be answered through testing (and I hope I’m not alone in striving to answer them).
With that out of the way, let’s examine what works:
Tarmogoyf: Obviously, this guy lies at the core of the deck. I’ve spoken about him above, and doubt he needs any further justification.
Wild Mongrel: The deck needed an extra source of fat, and Mongrel is just the thing. While I originally ran Drekavec (I’d forgotten about Mongrel), Mongrel is clearly superior, especially since the extra pieces that he puts in the grave can directly pump Tarmogoyf—often, this can be used as a combat trick to save a Tarmogoyf and/or destroy something else.
Tombstalker: A 5/5 flying beatstick on your second or third turns is never anything to sneer at—particularly when he’s backed by another big creature. Tombstalker will win games for you, and it’s as simple as that. It’s also important to note that Delve is selective, meaning that you can play the ‘Stalker and maintain a fairly large Lhurgoyf without too much difficulty. Delve’s necessity, however, forces the deck to be capable of putting a significant amount into its graveyard—especially after a Tombstalker has been successfully cast—so as to avoid being caught with lacklustre creatures, especially if a wayward StP were to hit your Tombstalker.
Life from the Loam: Originally, I ran Darkblast here. Unfortunately, Darkblast isn’t so effective against most of the format. Additionally, it generates no card advantage with Mongrel. LftL, on the other hand, pumps Mongrel significantly while increasing your resiliency to land-hate. It was clear that I needed some kind of Dredge engine, and LftL seemed best suited to the task.
Pernicious Deed: Doesn’t go well with Mox or Mongoose. On the other hand, it’s a much better (and more timely) answer than Counterspell is, and it grants the possibility of unparalleled board domination (post-Dead ‘Goyf/’Stalker, after all, is going to be impressive).
And now, onto the issues that need resolving:
Mox Diamond? Yup, I run it for more explosive starts (this deck aims to be far more aggressive than typical Threshold, after all). Putting extra lands into the grave is OK, but doesn’t help Tarmogoyf as much as it helps Mongoose or Tombstalker. Of course, this is a dead draw later on, except to fuel Mongrel. Basically, its inclusion hinges upon the advantage in speed that it can grant the deck (which is especially relevant vs. Goblins); if the deck doesn’t need that much more speed, then it isn’t necessary.
Nimble Mongoose? Increases dependence on the graveyard and isn’t great with Deed. Nevertheless, Mongoose’s untargetability is significant, and I think I’d like a fourth.
Ghastly Demise or Vendetta? I opt for Demise, but that does increase graveyard dependence significantly. Perhaps Vendetta is better.
Counterspell/Top It could be done, but I don’t think it’s worth it; I suspect that the matchups that the combo is good for are already favourable.
More counterspells? Find the room and I may include them. As it is, I think that Deed is a pretty damn good “counterspell”.
The cantrips: Is Mental Note necessary? Are more Serum Visions called for (to increase sorceries)?
Disruption? Find the room, and I’ll oblige. Still, I’m not convinced that Duress or Cabal Therapy are worth maindecking. Perhaps further testing will yield an answer.
Street Wraith? Sounds great—an awesome early creature discard to the ‘Goyf, it can double as a protector or beatstick later on. What comes out for it? Cantrips, I suppose (and yet the cantrips are vital to growing the Lhurgoyf and casting the ‘Stalker)…
What goes into the sideboard? 4x Engineered Plague, naturally. 2x Pernicious Deed? Engineered Explosives? Krosan Grip or Blue Elemenal Blast? Another Tombstalker? Disruption?
So yeah… it’s early in the morning and I’m falling asleep, so that’s it for now. Help smoothing this out would be greatly appreciated; it’s got a lot of aggressive potential of its own, but I suspect that that potential could be channelled far for effectively.
Re: BUG Not-Quite-Thresh, Not-Quite-Gro?
Unfortunately, the thread seems too large to edit properly on my browser/computer, so I hope you'll pardon this second post. I just wanted to add that one last card to consider might be Tolaria West (SB?), which could fetch out Diamond, Chalice, Explosives, land, Wasteland, etc.
Re: BUG Not-Quite-Thresh, Not-Quite-Gro?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Goaswerfraiejen
Unfortunately, the thread seems to large to edit properly on my browser/computer, so I hope you'll pardon this second post. I just wanted to add that one last card to consider might be Tolaria West (SB?), which could fetch out Diamond, Chalice, Explosives, land, Wasteland, etc.
i dont know, that card is cute and all, but its sorcery speed, and this is a 3 color deck,this isnt the right deck for that card. the tolaria needs double blue, and it will just slow down the deck and be clunky, if you want to fetch one ofs, just play trinket mage, and then you can fetch 1 casting cost artifacts as well, such as pithing needle, and all the other artifacts you stated, and if the only land you want to fetch with tolaria is wasteland, dont waste the spots, you'll just wind up color screwing yourself
Re: BUG Not-Quite-Thresh, Not-Quite-Gro?
Please stop trying to fit several FS cards in a single deck. Tombstalker is completely antisynergetic with most of your other cards except deed. Deed is also antisynergetic with mongoose, goyf and mongrel.
Are you playing FoW with only 15 blue spells ? Most of them being cantrips that are going to be played in the first turns ?
In a bit the same idea, I built another deck, not extensively tested for the moment but it's philosophy line looks more defined to me.
Creatures (16):
4*nimble mongoose
4*werewolf
4*goyf
4*dark confidant
Disruption (8):
4*Daze
4*Duress
Cantrips (11):
4*Brainstorm
3*Serum visions
4*Mental note
Burn (8 ):
4*Lightning Bolt
4*Seal of Fire
Lands (17):
1*Bayou
1*Badlands
1*Taiga
1*Underground sea
1*Volcanic island
2*Tropical island
1*Island
1*Forest
4*Wooded Foothills
4*Polluted Delta
SB (15):
4*FoW
3*Stifle
2*Krosan Grip
4*Pyroclasm
2*Meltdown
Re: BUG Not-Quite-Thresh, Not-Quite-Gro?
Mav:
Your list has a couple things I really don't agree with. First and biggest would be the inclusion of red. Black's removal options are powerful and diverse enough that I don't think the inclusion of another color only for removal is worth nuking the mana base like that. Especially when Darkblast is so synergistic with, well, about everything. (Darkblast+Note=More or less instant Thresh)
While I like the inclusion of MD Duress, (Although 4 might be a bit much), and Daze, while powerful, is another card I usually prefer as a 3 of also, I really, really REALLY have to question moving Force of Will SB. It just says no in a way that Daze or Duress never can. If it's just the blue card number that is scaring you, the deck can be tweaked to fit it in, with things like F/I etc. , with 16 being the old bare-bones minimum rule of thumb. While I appreciate that Confidant+FoW is kinda awkward, you do have cantrips to control that, and I mean.....It's Force of Will. It's considered one of the defining cards in every format it's ever been legal in for a good reason.
Lastly, I'm not sure 4 Bear+ 4 Goyf is needed. These aren't Muscle Slivers 5-8 we are talking about here; just because we CAN run 8 Werebears doesn't mean it's optimal. I'd say 4 Goyf, and drop the bears for something else.
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1*Bayou
1*Badlands
1*Taiga
1*Underground sea
1*Volcanic island
2*Tropical island
1*Island
1*Forest
4*Wooded Foothills
4*Polluted Delta
Running that would also terrify the heck out of me. You have 5 lands that can actually tap to produce blue mana, which is key because blue mana is the color that will allow you to play the cantrips that will find whatever other mana color you were looking for. Given that it's still a debate in most Thresh decks to run a basic Forest or not, running !4! non blue lands in a 17 land base seems rather shaky. I mean, to support 4 colors, I'd rather run all blue duels/fetches/islands with a City of Brass or 2 than go to a heavily non blue land base.
However, assuming I'm spouting gibberish and everything I said above is wrong, with your list I'd still change the sideboard a bit. Deed, while not incredibly synergistic with your deck (Though not much worse than Pyroclasm I might add) is just a house and a half against scrubbiness. It's the universal answer to bad sliver decks, 4 color survival concoctions, and whatever revamped Masques-era Type 2 deck WILL show up at 1.5 tournaments. While I'd say Deed is better SB than MD'ed like in the other lists, I'd feel much safer with it there, knowing that you have an answer to positively every random pile you might have to face.
On the same line, once again, assuming you ran your list and not what I was suggesting in the first couple paragraphs, I'd switch Meltdown for Grudge. Unless Affinity is all the rage where you play, Grudge will be better knocking off individual equipment pieces and such in the first couple turns, while Meltdown is rather slow+weak vs the "Stompy" type decks, where spot removal is more important against the traditional 1 big threat than a global artifact nuke. Not too mention that Deed does what meltdown does...just with more versitility.
EDIT: Just been looking at your Urg Goyf Gro list, and that looks like a very solid if yet untested, but completely different deck using Goyf. I think both the black and the red builds could be very good, but they are quite different ideas. Each on it's own looks quite powerful, but shoving them together looks not so much.
Re: BUG Not-Quite-Thresh, Not-Quite-Gro?
I was not going to post it till after the GP when the card were legal but your deck gave me some ideas. An agro control deck that uses dredge but does not rely on it. I decided to cut blue and the result is this.
4 Tarmogyf
4 Wild Mongrel
3 Nimble Mongoose
3 Tombstalker
2 Genesis
4 Darkblast
4 Life from the Loam
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Solitary Confinement
4 Mox Diamond
2 Barren Moor
4 Tranquil Thicket
4 Windswept Heath
2 Polluted Delta
1 Scrubland
1 Savannah
3 Bayou
3 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Cabal Pit
I wanted to go ahead and take a giant step forward and cut any connection to thresh what so ever. There is a lot of interaction in this deck and Solitary Confinement was a solid fit. 4 of them because I can use them as a fog as well as a lock piece, giving my ground pounders time to reck face. Once again, this is all very speculative since neither tombstalker or Tarmogyf will be legal at the gp. Although you could replace the Tarmogyf with Terravore and the three Tombstalkers with 2x STP and another nimble Mongoose.
SB:
4 Null Rod
4 Engineered Plague
3 Tormod's Crypt
4 Duress
Nullrod believe it or not comes in durring the gobin matchup to seal the deal against crypt and Vial.
I like the style of the deck... but I think it would be much better with Tombstalker and Tarmogyf after Columbus.
Re: BUG Not-Quite-Thresh, Not-Quite-Gro?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
LrdMcCaffrey
Mav:
Your list has a couple things I really don't agree with. First and biggest would be the inclusion of red. Black's removal options are powerful and diverse enough that I don't think the inclusion of another color only for removal is worth nuking the mana base like that. Especially when Darkblast is so synergistic with, well, about everything. (Darkblast+Note=More or less instant Thresh)
I agree with that. Darkblast is huge in such a deck. I agree also on the cut of red. This is possible, it is only annoying to me because it breaks down highly the number of turn1 answers to lackey and of good removals.
Quote:
While I like the inclusion of MD Duress, (Although 4 might be a bit much), and Daze, while powerful, is another card I usually prefer as a 3 of also, I really, really REALLY have to question moving Force of Will SB. It just says no in a way that Daze or Duress never can. If it's just the blue card number that is scaring you, the deck can be tweaked to fit it in, with things like F/I etc. , with 16 being the old bare-bones minimum rule of thumb. While I appreciate that Confidant+FoW is kinda awkward, you do have cantrips to control that, and I mean.....It's Force of Will. It's considered one of the defining cards in every format it's ever been legal in for a good reason.
Well, even if I remove red. I'm not sure to want to include Force of Will and I will certainly never cut a single daze because it's very synergic with discard (discard urge the opponent to play fast and daze calms him down). Force of will is too much card disadvantage to be as powerful as daze in such a deck.
Quote:
Lastly, I'm not sure 4 Bear+ 4 Goyf is needed. These aren't Muscle Slivers 5-8 we are talking about here; just because we CAN run 8 Werebears doesn't mean it's optimal. I'd say 4 Goyf, and drop the bears for something else.
The bears are almost as good as goyfs. I don't want to drop them, I want to play a large amount of stompy guys. I would better cut the mogooses actually.
Quote:
Running that would also terrify the heck out of me. You have 5 lands that can actually tap to produce blue mana, which is key because blue mana is the color that will allow you to play the cantrips that will find whatever other mana color you were looking for. Given that it's still a debate in most Thresh decks to run a basic Forest or not, running !4! non blue lands in a 17 land base seems rather shaky. I mean, to support 4 colors, I'd rather run all blue duels/fetches/islands with a City of Brass or 2 than go to a heavily non blue land base.
Well I don't agree on the way you would fix the mana base but I agree that it is completely junk and that red should be removed.
Quote:
However, assuming I'm spouting gibberish and everything I said above is wrong, with your list I'd still change the sideboard a bit. Deed, while not incredibly synergistic with your deck (Though not much worse than Pyroclasm I might add) is just a house and a half against scrubbiness. It's the universal answer to bad sliver decks, 4 color survival concoctions, and whatever revamped Masques-era Type 2 deck WILL show up at 1.5 tournaments. While I'd say Deed is better SB than MD'ed like in the other lists, I'd feel much safer with it there, knowing that you have an answer to positively every random pile you might have to face.
Have been mistreated by slivers ? You look obsessed. I don't like deed in a deck playing aggro with low CC creatures. Anyway it's too early to fix a sideboard of a deck that has never been tested. We need to test to know its weaknesses and the ways to fix it afterside.
Quote:
On the same line, once again, assuming you ran your list and not what I was suggesting in the first couple paragraphs, I'd switch Meltdown for Grudge. Unless Affinity is all the rage where you play, Grudge will be better knocking off individual equipment pieces and such in the first couple turns, while Meltdown is rather slow+weak vs the "Stompy" type decks, where spot removal is more important against the traditional 1 big threat than a global artifact nuke. Not too mention that Deed does what meltdown does...just with more versitility.
I'm ok with that also. Even more as long as you play darkblast.
Quote:
EDIT: Just been looking at your Urg Goyf Gro list, and that looks like a very solid if yet untested, but completely different deck using Goyf. I think both the black and the red builds could be very good, but they are quite different ideas. Each on it's own looks quite powerful, but shoving them together looks not so much.
Thanks. I have tested this deck and it really rocks, specially these times with all the noobs around us trying to fit street wraith and pact of negation in their combo decks. Pact of negation is a nonsense in a deck playing 4*LED and 4*infernal tutor. Wraith is a nonsense in a deck where the opening hand is so much important.
Well, to finish another thing on which we agree Tarmogoyf is completely broken. The best creature I've seen since dark confidant (even better than Jotun grunt and serra's avenger). And to come back on the initial subject of the thread, Tombstalker is bad, specially in a threshold deck. And Counterbalance is good especially in Threshold decks.
Re: BUG Not-Quite-Thresh, Not-Quite-Gro?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
murderface
i dont know, that card is cute and all, but its sorcery speed, and this is a 3 color deck,this isnt the right deck for that card. the tolaria needs double blue, and it will just slow down the deck and be clunky, if you want to fetch one ofs, just play trinket mage, and then you can fetch 1 casting cost artifacts as well, such as pithing needle, and all the other artifacts you stated, and if the only land you want to fetch with tolaria is wasteland, dont waste the spots, you'll just wind up color screwing yourself
Well, double blue is fairly easy to achieve in the original build, hence why I cited it as a possible direction. I do agree, however, that it's not indicated here; it would necessitate a wholly different deck and framework in order to be best utilized.
Quote:
Please stop trying to fit several FS cards in a single deck. Tombstalker is completely antisynergetic with most of your other cards except deed. Deed is also antisynergetic with mongoose, goyf and mongrel.
1.) I'm not trying to make a deck out of one set. It's patently obvious, however, that Future Sight has given UGB Thresh two invaluable tools: Tarmogoyf, which is a better Werebear, and Tombstalker, which is a decent and evasive finisher. You'll note that I include neither Street Wraith nor Tolaria West in my decklist; I merely mention them as possible directions.
2.) What is Tombstalker anti-synergistic with? Mongoose, Life from the Loam, and Tarmogoyf? How is that most of the deck? Life from the Loam is there solely to be able to cast an early Tombstalker (the synergy with Mongrel is incidental, not integral). As for Mongoose and Tarmogoyf, I've acknowledged problems and some answers/solutions. As far as Tarmogoyf is concerned, Tombstalker's drawback is, as I've said, minimal, since you can also count on your opponent's graveyard. As far as Mongoose goes, you need to be a little more careful, but it's one of the better creatures available to us (and so the deck needs to be structured so as to be able to support a late-game Post-Tombstalker Mongoose).
3.) If Deed is run, it should be as a reset button rather than as pinpoint removal. Accordingly, you'll want a Lhurgoyf, Mongoose, or Tombstalker in hand when you activate it. Reset buttons are bound to hit your own things. Because this deck does not swarm, Deed is a very viable card (that is to say, you'll blow up one or two creatures to save yourself, then cast a big one--granted, losing Deed's ability to pinpoint isn't always great, but on the other hand gaining a sweeer is significant). The biggest problem with Deed is Mox Diamond--blowing up vital mana sources is uncool. I suppose that Engineered Explosives could also be run, although its own merits lie more in pinpoint destruction than holistic sweeping.
With regards to your build, the inclusion of red for burn is interesting, but I wonder if it's as resilient as the other suggested builds (that is to say, it seems like it has a lot of different directions in which it can go [not to mention four colours], and I wonder if that strengthens or weakens the deck). Don't get me wrong; I don't know, because I haven't tested it for myself yet. I will be, that's for sure, because I want to know if access to burn speeds things up enough to warrant a red splash. One important thing to know would be how you fare against Goblins, since Goblins tends to run a fair bit of disruption, which is typically anathema to four-colour decks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hapy Gilmore
I was not going to post it till after the GP when the card were legal but your deck gave me some ideas. An agro control deck that uses dredge but does not rely on it. I decided to cut blue and the result is this.
Thanks for your post; this is the other possible route I wanted to suggest last night but forgot about. Indeed, the inclusion of Mongrel and Life from the Loam in my first list was really pointing to a Loam Confinement type of deck, and it's a possibility well worth exploring (although I'd like to refrain from simply putting Tarmogoyf into existing Loam/Confinement decks and stick to the exploration of new possibilities). Basically, you can stomp face with serious aggression, or you can turtle up behind Confinement. I like it a lot (love it, really), but I've found (in my brief testing) that I tend to dredge into lands a little bit much, which makes me wonder if Terravore might not want to get back in (perhaps even over Mongoose? I don't know--Terravore is as vulnerable to Tombstalker as Mongoose is). Where the blue-splash version finds itself more reliant upon cantrips to fill the yard, this version relies more heavily upon dredge... which is better, I don't know. My question, however, is whether this is any better than Terrageddon w/ Tarmogoyf. It seems to me that Terrageddon would be more versatile and stronger in the long run, whereas this build would aim more for speedy beatdown. My concern, basically, is that once Confinement is needed, we have no real options but to turtle down and wait for a moment to strike the final blow. If that happens, the lack of control will make us more vulnerable to enemy control elements (that is to say, my concern is that Confinement becomes a crutch and little if anything else). Of course, this is more of a theoretical standpoint than an actual one; I need to get back to testing.
Thanks for the brainstorming everyone, let's keep it up!
Re: BUG Not-Quite-Thresh, Not-Quite-Gro?
Drop the Loam count to 1 and run Intuition x4. Toss in a lone 1-of on Genesis, maybe a 1-of on Wonder, a couple of Lonely Sandbars, possibly a 1-of on Cephalid Coliseum, and of course a 1-of on Wasteland. Toss in 2-3 Psychatogs and call it a day.
