[Discussion] Hulk Flash

// Lands
1 [R] Underground Sea
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
5 [CST] Island

// Creatures
4 [SH] Shifting Wall
3 [VI] Phyrexian Marauder
4 [MR] Disciple of the Vault
4 [DIS] Protean Hulk
1 [AL] Elvish Spirit Guide

// Spells
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [FUT] Pact of Negation
4 [FUT] Summoner's Pact
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [MI] Mystical Tutor
4 [MI] Flash
3 [AL] Force of Will
1 [ON] Chain of Vapor
2 [HL] Merchant Scroll


As you can see here:

http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/inde...&Field_Name=on


the Oracle text of the card "Flash" changed to:

"You may put a creature card from your hand into play. If you do, sacrifice it unless you pay its mana cost reduced by up to 2 Mana."

Which means that:
a) you can put a creature of your choice to play and it will trigger comes into play abilities
b) sacrifice it and it will trigger other things, like "goes to the graveyard from play".
c) Others...



Normally I want to Draw and not Play (Gemstone Caverns), so let's see a game where the opponent starts:

Hand: Gemstone Caverns, Lotus Petal, Summoner's Pact, Brainstorm, Mystical Tutor, Disciple of the Vault, Protean Hulk,

(a hand with 2 useless card, Summoner's and Disciple, not a god hand...)


Turn 0:
Gemstone in play discarding Pact,
play Brainstorm for Pact of Negation, Shifting Wall, Island
putting on top Disciple and Shifting

Turn 1:
on upkeep Mystical for Flash (Disciple and Wall shuffled...)
play Island, Lotus Petal
whenever I want play Flash and win, protected by Pact of Negation...


Q: How to win:
R:
play Flash for Protean Hulk,
sacrifice it,
search for 4x Disciple, 4x Shifting Walls and 3x Phyrexian Marauder (if they are still in your deck)
Shifting and Marauder come into play and die (they are 0/0)
Disciples trigger 4x7=28 times...


Q: What if you draw Disciple or Shifting?
R:
1) You can play them (1 Underground Sea + Fetch) and winning in your main phase
2) There are 4 lotus petal that you can sacrifice for additional life loss
3) Brainstorm + Fetch or Mystical or Merchant for shuffling (or Flash)


Q: How is it working?
R:
The deck sometimes "flizzes" but many other times it wins on turn 2 protected by FoW or Pact...
It is a mono blue deck (apart for mono Sea for Disciple) so it's resilient.
It packs 8 FoW and 10 Tutors... (Mystical for Summoner's Pact for Protean on my upkeep)
"Stack Domination" by winning istant-speed




P.S. Possible other creatures (thanks to "Illisius")

Academy Rector
Angel of Despair
Bogardan Hellkite
Draining Whelk
False Prophet
Gamekeeper
Kamigawa Dragons
Mindslicer
Palinchron
Penumbra Wurm
Petradon
Su-Chi
Sundering Titan
Symbiotic Wurm
...

This deck is so cool! :smile: Also, it's really cheap in mana cost, just having to pay 2 for the flash.
I don't really like the combo you are using to kill tough, you need 9 cards for it, and the chances that you will draw one or two are pretty big. I'm still trying to find a better one, but I'm not sure if there actually is any.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bahamuth

This deck is so cool! :smile: Also, it's really cheap in mana cost, just having to pay 2 for the flash.
I don't really like the combo you are using to kill tough, you need 9 cards for it, and the chances that you will draw one or two are pretty big. I'm still trying to find a better one, but I'm not sure if there actually is any.

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Yeah, that's the problem.

A good thing is that we can play that cards so they are not dead in our hands if we draw them.





I have to post this because I never saw a turn 0 win:

Hand: Gemstone Caverns, Protean Hulk, Summoner's Pact, Flash, Brainstorm, FoW,


Turn 0:
Gemstone in play removing Petal
Summoner's for ESG
Flash

GG on turn 0 protected by FoW...

Protean Hulk is a very cool way of getting Saffi and Crypt Champion in play and going off from there.

The first search goes for Saffi and a creature that sacks stuff then you return the hulk and go nutz.

I'm not sure I follow that. If you get Saffi from the Hulk, you can't use Saffi to bring the Hulk back, because Saffi has to target something in play to make it come back when it dies.

Also, since it has The Hulk and The Flash, I'm going to push for this deck to be named 'Super Friends'.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Happy Gilmore

Protean Hulk is a very cool way of getting Saffi and Crypt Champion in play and going off from there.

The first search goes for Saffi and a creature that sacks stuff then you return the hulk and go nutz.

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I like it, maybe it will be less then 9 cards, but there will probably be more dead cards in hand if you draw them...

And we will be more fragile (pithing needle)...

you can also go for 3 pride of the clouds and 4 topters, but that doesn't instant win :(

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Minosse

I like it, maybe it will be less then 9 cards, but there will probably be more dead cards in hand if you draw them...

And we will be more fragile (pithing needle)...

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first you get saffi, Carrion Feeder, and Tessa

sack saffi getting back hulk, sac hulk to feeder, get crypt champion and anything else( you can go for another Saffi just in case). Then you make infinite dudes. You can also use hulk as many times as you have Saffi's. EE doesn't stop you because your Carrion feeder is somewhere in the relm of a 1000/1000. O_o

I just realized, there is another way to go off...

Careful study discarding Carrion Feeder/Tessa first turn

play flash second turn, get Saffi Crypt champion (crypt champion targets feeder)

sac saffi get hulk, sac hulk get saffi (#2)/ Crypt Champion (#2) (target Tessa)

Go off from there.

A crazy thought just came to me. What about Epochrasite? I'm not advocating it in the maindeck, but postboard if people bring in hate against you, you can always board in these guys, Hulk it up, and go beatdown with 3 4/4 beaters straight from your library.

It's probably not worth it, but I figured it was worth mentioning.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Pinder

Also, since it has The Hulk and The Flash, I'm going to push for this deck to be named 'Super Friends'.

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i prefer the name suggested on the SCG forum, "Hulk Flash". :cool:

the deck concept looks very strong because it can win blazing fast (hell, it can even pull of Turn 0 wins :confused: ) and runs up to 8 free hard counters to protect the combo.

i think the main issue right now is to find the right numbers and MD choices.

The most important thing to remember is:

WHEN YOU GO OFF YOU HAVE TO WIN



(because we are using 8 Pacts...)



Trust me that the biggest problem of this deck is simply that Wizards will fix it real soon...

I was thinking about that "fix it real soon part" and I can tell that you are new to Legacy. Wizards doesn't fix stuff around here. You can rest assured that it will stay that way for a while.


BTW, cool find. I am popping ideas around in the old noggin.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Happy Gilmore

first you get saffi, Carrion Feeder, and Tessa

sack saffi getting back hulk, sac hulk to feeder, get crypt champion and anything else( you can go for another Saffi just in case). Then you make infinite dudes. You can also use hulk as many times as you have Saffi's. EE doesn't stop you because your Carrion feeder is somewhere in the relm of a 1000/1000. O_o

I just realized, there is another way to go off...

Careful study discarding Carrion Feeder/Tessa first turn

play flash second turn, get Saffi Crypt champion (crypt champion targets feeder)

sac saffi get hulk, sac hulk get saffi (#2)/ Crypt Champion (#2) (target Tessa)

Go off from there.

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1) Keep in mind that Hulk can only get creatures with CMC of 6 six or less. There's no way to get Champion, Feeder, and Saffi all in one shot with Hulk.
2) What does EE (Engineered Explosives I assume) have to worry about from a 1000/1000 Feeder? It still dies to an Explosives with one counter on it.
3) Your second example, in order to be effective, would require more useless cards in the deck than the already fragile Disciple combo. Consistently getting these targets into the graveyard turns 1-2 would take multiple Saffi et al in the main
4) This deck idea has potential without watering it down with Careful Study for sub-optimal combo
5) Explain in your second combo how you would get Hulk back; you can't target a creature with Saffi while it's in the graveyard and that's what it sounds like you're doing.

In any case, while the Disciple combo sounds fun, the risk of getting the wrong cards in hand feels too risky. I see two directions to take this deck to make is most effective: either get the creature combo with Hulk down to far less cards or remove the Hulk combo all together. If stacks of 1/1s work for TES with disruption, why not play Symbiotic Wurm in here?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Finn

I was thinking about that "fix it real soon part" and I can tell that you are new to Legacy. Wizards doesn't fix stuff around here. You can rest assured that it will stay that way for a while.

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They will fix this...
They simply have to undo the change in the wording, and this is SO broken that they will have to do it...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TorpidNinja

If stacks of 1/1s work for TES with disruption, why not play Symbiotic Wurm in here?

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I'm also thinking of other possibilities (Sundering Titan) that does not instant win but give you great board advantage.

But we would have to cut Pacts, which are awesome in this deck...



No one wants to talk about MD modifications and SB?

why not just add 2 more Phyrexian Marauder to the deck that should fix the problem of drawing a Disciple of the Vault into your hand -(so you would only need 3 in play or help if they have a bit of early life gain from something like lightining helix

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mugs

why not just add 2 more Phyrexian Marauder to the deck that should fix the problem of drawing a Disciple of the Vault into your hand -(so you would only need 3 in play or help if they have a bit of early life gain from something like lightining helix

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I did it initially!

But there were too much dead cards, so I'd prefer tutoring a brainstorm instead or simply play the Disciple :D

Mystical Tutor for Brainstorm in this deck is not as stupid as it can seem.


P.S. 3 Disciple, 5 creatures and a Petal in play are 18 damages, many times it'll be sufficient...

Random idea for a kill condition:

During your opponent's second main phase, Flash Hulk to fetch Apprentice Necromancer, Carrion Feeder, Rage Weaver, and any other 1-mana creature. Give haste to Apprentice Necromancer, then activate it returning Hulk. At end of turn Hulk dies again, fetch Academy Rector and any other 2-mana creature. Sacrifice Rector to Feeder, fetch Day of the Dragons (four creatures in play: Feeder, Weaver, and two dorks of your choice). Untap, swing for 20.

Pros: Only 7 cards needed. If something goes wrong you may still get a bunch of 5/5 fliers. Some "open" slots in the combo, allowing for stuff like a second Carrion Feeder or a Mother of Runes. You also get the alternate plan of hardcasting a few dorks, then Flashing Rector for Day of the Dragons at EOT.
Cons: vulnerability to Stifle and Tormod's Crypt, kill condition relies on attacking, Dragon tokens can be removed by EE@0.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Minosse

Noone wants to talk about MD modifications and SB?

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I will.

Maindeck: Kill the Spirit Guide and the Street Wraith. Add a second Marauder. STP can't touch your creatures due to priority never passing, but it can touch theirs and heal them just enough to try and deal with Disciples swinging for the last few points. Doing that 24 instead of 20 may be crucial.

Sideboard: Add a Monk Realist. Fills that extra 2 CMC you have available up and picks off a Solitary Confinement while you're going off.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tacosnape

...

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Many times you have a useless Summoner's Pact in your hand, so I need at least one of ESG or Street.

Maybe I can cut the other for 1 marauder...

ESG or Street?

I'm thinking about Street because of "so many insane plays" that you can do with ESG.
But with Street you can draw the card that you put on top with mystical, so I really don't know.
Or we could cut something else, but what? Is it possible to cut another land?


P.S. We can win in response to loosing a game to a Pact...

This is just a very rough list I put together just now. I realize that the size of the combo package increases, in exchange you get cards that are marginally useful on there own and have some synergies.

5 Island
2 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand

4 Protean Hulk
4 Disciple of the Vault
2 Arcbound Ravager
4 Shield Sphere
2nithopter
1 Street Wraith
1 ESG

4 FOW
4 Pact of Negation
4 Summoners Pact
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Flash
4 Mystical Tutor
4 Lotus Petal
2 Show and Tell

Get 4 disciple a ravager and 6 zero cost creatures with hulk sac them all kill the opponent, if you have a disicple in hand you have enough artifacts to kill with 3 disciples. Cabal Therapy provides some additional disruption that u can sac ornithopters and shield spheres to flashback.
Show and Tell + therapy in graveyard acts like flash giving you a slightly more diverse win condition.
This build doesnt have a md bounce spell which is probaly needed somewhere and 3 Hulks is probaly all you need with the 4 pacts.

The addition of 1 wraith and ESG seem really cool only testing will show if its necessary. The exact number of combo cretures probaly needs to be refined as well but that will come down to testing too.