How does one beat a Thresh deck besides using a Thresh deck of their own? What non-blue decks have a chance against it? What other blue decks have a chance against it? What cards are most effective at smashing the Thresh deck apart?
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How does one beat a Thresh deck besides using a Thresh deck of their own? What non-blue decks have a chance against it? What other blue decks have a chance against it? What cards are most effective at smashing the Thresh deck apart?
For blue decks, Chalice at 1 and landstill are your best bet...
http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5467
For nonblue decks, nonbasic land hate is your best bet....
http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5496
Play Ichorid, Thresh is one of the decks best matchups (along with Landstill).
Now that Goyf has everybody looking at Threshold as the main threat I expect somebody to come up with a deck that just utterly thrashes it.
Maybe a combo deck that plays blue counters and Leylines of the Void.
Non-blue boardcontrol decks also claim to have a positive Thresh matchup mainly because they run more removal and sweepers than Thresh has critters and counters. This includes Truffle Shuffle, variants of Rifter or Rabid Wombat and Trainwreck.
Playing Stax I'd say that this deck also has a positive Thresh matchup but it's far from a total sweep (about 60-40).
Chalice of the Void looks like the best generic hoser for Threshold and it is useful against combo too but it may hurt your own deck.
Imho if you really want to smash Threshold go with Ichorid.
Extra: Counterbalance or Wasteland/Stifle is tech in the mirror but I guess you already knew that :)
Stax has a good Thresh matchup because eveything is a "must counter."
Trinisphere taxes their mana base too much, they run around 18 lands.
Chalice at one shuts down all of there cantrips, burn, and mongeese.
Ghostly Prison slows them to one creature attacking a turn.
Ensnaring Bridge can shut down all of their creatures.
Crucible + Wasteland or Smokestack can whittle away what ever small number of permanents they have.
The primary answer to all of these from Threshold's perspective is Engineered Explosives, witch can be fought with Pithing Needle or not over extending.
Aggro-Control with recursion is another option. Basically, you have to make Threshold waste its resources. If you have some sort of threat recursion (like Genesis, for example, or Gigapede), then the counterspells/removal used on creatures are pretty much a waste of resources. Or, if your board-control plan is especially strong (such as with sweepers), you can force an over-commitment to the board (that will then be swept away), etc.
Ultimately, I think that no matter the (narrow) strategy used against it, that strategy can (broadly) be characterised as forcing Threshold to commit resources to the wrong things. Threshold's greatest strength is also a great weakness: while it can play both the aggro and the control roles quite well, it's easily surpassed in either by anyone wanting to make that kind of commitment in a deck (and it really doesn't take all that much). If you force Threshold to rely on just one part of its hybrid strategy, it won't be long before it fails. It can be pushed a fair bit, sure, but not all that far.
Some cards that are effective versus Threshold (although not very widely played--also, remember that these work best in the context of a deck built to use them; on their own they're ok, just not as stellar): Pernicious Deed, Crime/Punishment, Genesis, Gigapede, Volrath's Stronghold, Eternal Witness.
I doubt these will be mentioned by many others, but they're worth throwing out there.
On the draw, the Thresh vs. Stax match is awful for Thresh. Thresh has EE and Grip to try to get into the game, but if it's locked out, it's over and is a truly ugly beating.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sacul Kamadaka
On the play, as in Vintage vs. Stax, really turns things around. Going first Thresh gets to lead with a cantrip and have Daze online. After that, it just needs to commit a quick threat to the board and have Stax deal with it; which isn't easy, as everything Stax can play can be countered, and prison doesn't fair well when on a quick clock.
Meddling Mage is really good in this match too, for what it's worth to you.
But if it isn't countered, a first-turn Trinisphere is practically game.
@ Kicks - This one?
You mean Iggy-Pop? I think I've read in one of Bardo's articles that UGW Thresh wrote a letter to Iggy-Pop to just stop trying...Quote:
Originally Posted by FoolofaTook
Modern Thresh has a very short list of things to fear from Stax variants:
SoR on the play
Trinisphere before Thresh has resolved cantrips to find land
Sphere effects after resolved LD (Armageddon, Boil, Tsuanmi, Boiling Seas)
Chalice @ 2 (stops all win conditions big enough to avoid Factory)
Ensnaring Bridge
Smokestack/Braids (when Thresh is at very few permanents and/or their threats aren't lethal)
Crucible/LFTL recurring Manlands (specifically factory)
Exalted Angel
Crucible/LFTL recurring Wasteland with a Sphere out
Words of Wilding
In my testing, the most problematic outside of the obvious Sphere on the play scenario from the Stax side is a resolved Ensnaring Bridge or recursion of manlands. Thresh really doesn't have many outs to these situations outside of find artifact hate (or in the case of manlands, pray for a crypt or needle). Given that EE will require 3 lands in play to take out Bridge or Crucible, it can be really difficult to actually remove the problematic artifact if the Stax build comes into Wastelands or other LD (Boil, Armageddon for example).
As a Stax player, you have to be ready to get the first 2-3 spells countered that you play while facing Threshold if you're on the draw. On the play, I'd expect 1-2 of my first spells countered.
I break the matchup down to phases:
Phase 1: Stax in Aggro Mode
This is where Stax wants to put down threatening stuff like Trinispheres, Sphere of Resistance, Smokestack, Chalice @ 1/2. This will generally last for the first 1-3 turns on the play (for Stax) and 1-2 turns on the draw (for Stax). This phase ends if Threshold resolves a 2cc or bigger guy (Goyf, Werebear, Dryad, Dragon, Enforcer, Efreet, etc). Threshold's job here is simply to not lose. Pretty much anything Stax plays is going to be threatening, but given your hand, certain things are more threatening than others. Important things to counter are Crucible and Ensnaring Bridge. If you have a large threat in hand (goyf for example), it's probably best to let Chalice @ 1 resolve so you can end this phase asap.
Phase 2: Stax in Control Mode
Now there is an immediate threat on the board and Stax must answer. Threshold's goal here is to make their guy go the distance. Threats include Ensnaring Bridge, Smokestack, Crucible, Wrath of God, Rolling Earthquake, and fat guys (Exalted Angel, Razormane Masticore, Magus of the Tabernacle). Stax will be trying to save up for multiple threats in a single turn to increase their chances of resolving one of them in hopes that you need mana for your counters. Stax generally loses the game against non-red Threshold here or not at all. If they successfully answer in topdeck mode, Threshold will need to find some sort of mass removal for 0cc (Chalices), 3cc (Bridge/Prisons/Crucibles), fatties, and possibly stuff at higher CCs like Smokestack. Unfortunately for Thresh, the topdecks from Stax are all going to be need to be answered and unless they get lucky, their failure as a tempo deck is going to be quickly apparent.
The non-obvious loss for Stax here is when all of their defense is from a single card or cc range of cards. This is important if they can't find an actual finisher like mass LD, Smokestack, or something of this type. Thresh can then use EE/KGrip/Deed (depending on the build) to nuke all of something and swing for lethal.
Phase 3: Endgame
If Stax moves past Phase 2 they probably can't lose to thresh without burn. In certain scenarios, particularly if a Goyf/Dryad went far, Ancient Tomb damage combined with an EE for 0 can give Threshold the opening they need for burn to deal the last damage. Generally finishers such as Mystic Enforcer and Fledgling Dragon are irrelevant because Stax already has Smokestack, Exalted Angel, or Prisons/Bridges in place.
Not to be overly simplistic, but I see it like this:
Stax wins the roll: Stax wins game 1, because it will; Thresh on the play with its sb cards will likely win game 2; Stax on the play will almost certainly win game 3. 2-1 Stax. (Likely; 70/30)
Thresh wins the roll: Thresh goes first and is roughly 55/45-ish favored, on account of the die roll/counters/cheap pressure; sideboarded and on the play, Stax easily wins game 2; on the play with its sideboard cards, Thresh is favored for game 3, but is not slam-dunk. 2-1 Thresh (reasonably 55/45)
I think Ill-Gotten Gains and Leylines of the Void are natural Threshold hosers. The problem with IggyPop is that it runs no counters and very little active disruption. It's all search and fast mana and if you can effectively say no to it with counters on the search side/IGG or Stifle on the end product then it's going to roll over and die except off of a great draw.Quote:
Originally Posted by kicks_422
I was thinking of a somewhat more ancient concept married to Ill-Gotten Gains and the Leylines. Basically a deck with an extremely low number of win conditions, probably no more than 2 or 3 cards tops, and a full array of blue counters to sit along side a similar search engine and less fast mana.
Aggro-Prison, Fearie Stompy and AfFOWnity have good game against it, Threshold doesn't like prison pieces followed by 5+ power threats or flyers with equipment at all. Regular Affinity is actually a really good and a really cheap deck against Threshold, and Breakfast seems to have an edge against it.
Play Blood Moon in the SB. Magus of the Moon does the same job but dies to NQG/r's burn arsenal.
Play TruffleShuffle or TrainWreck. Basically anything with Haunting Echoes and a decent arsenal of removal. A lategame Haunting Echoes will often just win against ***** especially the 8-10 creature versions.
Just play Goblins! Goblins are fast dangerus and kills thresh anytime!
A lot of people say goblins are good but they loose against combo...
I say that is not true with a good sb...
Ichorid is not hard to beat with: Mog and crypt...
Belcher is also not so hard: needle and sharpshooter
Cefalids, yeha thats a problem...
anyways bashing ***** is easy with goblins, first you try to kill them turn 4 or 5 with your blinding speed, thene if something gets wrong, just wait for the lategame and beat them...
Except that Mogg Fanatic (and not even Crypt totally, if its even ran) beat Ichorid, and Needle and Sharpshooter dont beat Belcher. And like you said, Goblins doesnt beat the new version of Breakfast that rusn Goyf, so Ill say no thanks on Goblins.
Rockin Funkbrew runs Tarmogoyf as its own along with islandwalk and pro green critters. Pernicious Deed, Glittering Wish, Vindicate, and Swords to Plowshares pretty much seals the deal for me. Monasteries are great too. Funkbrew is basically anti Thresh by nature, I'm fine with that.
Anything with lots of dedicated untargeted creature removal and a secondary disruption package has a solid game against Threshold. Examples of this include Train Wreck (Kill all your shit and use discard) and Landstill (Kill all your shit and use countermagic.)
Similarly, anything that doesn't require spells to resolve to win the game has a solid game against Threshold. As far as I know, the only deck that falls into this category is Ichorid (And yes, I have seriously beaten Threshold once without ever resolving a single spell including flashbacks) Bizarrely, Ichorid can create a highly unorthdox triangle of Combo beats Threshold beats Goblins beats Combo.
Third, any deck with a similar Threshold-style build that packs a stronger and larger creature base can beat Threshold. This list used to cover Countersliver and even some Black-based aggro-control variants, although this margin has narrowed greatly since Tarmogoyf.
Fourth, any deck has a fighting shot against Threshold that doesn't beat itself. Threshold's crowning achievement is being the single most consistent deck in Legacy, and I've seen people go 20+ games without ever having to mulligan. Meaning anytime your deck has a mediocre or bad starting hand, Threshold is going to pounce. So don't run decks that get those and expect to consistently beat Threshold. (For the record, I don't believe Faerie Stompy beats Threshold anymore.)
From there, it largely depends on the build of Threshold. Goblins can still take down UGW Threshold, but cringes at UGW. On the flipside, a lot of black-splash Survival builds will prove strong against UGR but struggle mightily against UGW's Mages and Needles.
For what it's worth, I think Train Wreck is a very underrated deck in the modern metagame as it can smash Threshold, packs the best color for graveyard hate (Black) against Ichorid and Breakfast, can sometimes hang with Goblins from Infests and Plagues, and has lots of interesting kill conditions ranging from the original Helldozer to Tombstalker to Quagnoth to Korlash to the upcoming Liliana Vess.