Ban Tarmogoyf?

First i want to say sorry to the mods, i know it's another goyf thread. But i think we can have some healthy discussion here.


Reasons To Ban:

It fits the DCI's qualifications to ban perfectly. Look at the worlds metagame. EVERY deck ether ran goyf, had an answer to goyf, or was combo. The DCI banned Skullclamp, when it was being run in Goblins, Affinity, and Elves, and that was only a large part of the format not the entire thing.

Goyf also falls under the under costed effect category. The reason many cards are on the banned list, is because they are eather a) broken (Will, Dragon etc.) or b) undercosted (Demonic tutor, Lotus). Goyf falls under then undercosted effect cat. He is too low a cc for the effect he brings to the game.


Reasons Not To Ban:

Goyf would be the first beater ever to see the banned list. He has no "i win" clause like many of the decks on the B7R list. He is basically a vanilla beater. He dosn't have any form of evasion, and can be answered by many cards. Chump blocking, your own goyf, deed, shackles, threads, bounce, burn (when small) mage, smother, and many others.

Although undercosted, he is not a broken combo enabler, something that the B&R list is mostly devoted to.





OK, with both sides expressed, please be civil, no flaming, and no digression. Simply state you arguments ether for or against your point, and why you think this.

Mods, if you feel this gets out of hand, feel free to moderate to keep it civil. This should encourage healthy discussion, of an issue that needs to be addressed.

Also, don't speculate if WotC will or wouln't do it. It dosn't matter, it's what YOU think!

I dont think the fact that it is run in most decks is a good arguement for banning since cards like brainstorm and FoW are almost just as played, but I do think it should be banned for the reason that games often come down to who can get a Goyf to stick first, much like the argument used to ban Skullclamp years ago.

He's good, no question. He's a vanilla beater though. Mongoose is an undercosted beater, Basking Rootwalla is undercosted, Wild Mongrel is undercosted. I'm just as afraid of Mongrel as I am of Goyf.

Goyf is not hard to take care of at all.

And plus, if they ban him, I'll lose all the free money I'm sitting on.

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Originally Posted by Bovinious

I dont think the fact that it is run in most decks is a good arguement for banning since cards like brainstorm and FoW are almost just as played, but I do think it should be banned for the reason that games often come down to who can get a Goyf to stick first, much like the argument used to ban Skullclamp years ago.

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Whoever gets a big creature to stick wins anyway.

Pre-goyf, thresh needed a Dragon or Enforcer to stick. Just replace that with goyf, and there you go, really.

It isnt just Threshold though, its basically every deck that isnt fast combo or prison, which is another reason it may be banworthy; the number of Goyfs in the top8 worlds was more than Skullclamps in top8s during its hayday and everyone wanted that banned, I dont how this is much different really.

I remember reading a quote from Aaron Forsythe a few years back stating that "the only way we'll ban another creature in standard, is if it cost one mana and you can sac it for three". I think that quote is even relevent to this current age since banning a creature is something R&D seems to want to avoid. The reason being, they are so many answers to them and unless they automatically win you the game when they come into play, or can be abused in some weird combo deck, they're probably the one card type that seems to be the "least" resilient. Just my two cents, but I do agree that Tarmogoyf should be banned. Why you ask? Because when combined with Daze and FoW they're nearly unstoppable.

Correct. Wizards said they banned Skullclamp because it was warping the format. Every deck ether played Card X or ran main deck answers to Card X.

Goyf is the same way, It is being run main deck in every deck. MUC (MONO BLUE) was running it at worlds. Stax was running it. EVERYTHING thats wasn't Combo was running some number of Goyfs. That is warping the format in my opinion and makes it worthy of banning.

With everything else aside, we'd have to ask ourselves whether or not legacy would be a better format without tarmogoyf. Personally I think that it would be considering that if you want to win by attacking with creatures right now and you are not playing tarmogoyf your deck is sub-optimal. As a creature that swings it simply outclasses everything else. Tarmogoyf is pretty much at its most absurd in a format like legacy where it is very likely that it will grow out of control within the first couple of turns. It is dumb. Seriously. There would be so many more playable creatures if it weren't for this fucker. I'm tired of having to put him in every deck I make. The same damn card is being played in aggro, control, AND combo decks alike. There is a problem here.

I agree that Goyf should be banned. Its impact on the Meta is just too big

- Decks that SHOULD NOT run vanilla beaters for 2 Mana run him:
Nongreen Fish are willing to ruin their Mana Base by adding G because it still makes the deck better.
UB control decks with heavy card draw will splash G for Tarmogoyf instead of finishing with Tog.
Another example are Landstill lists with 4 Goyfs: That's just not healthy. Don't get me wrong, it is not bad, but Landstill is a synonym for slow board control based on card advantage. And when such a deck feels the need to run 2 Mana Vanilla beaters, then something is wrong.

- It makes TOO MANY cards useless or inferior that would otherwise be good: Creatures like Hierarch, Baloth, Mongrel, Wall of Blossoms, Masticore, Doran the Siege Tower, Rumbling Slum, Iwamori, Call of the Herd and Werebear are outclassed.
Flametongue Kavu has become a joke, it doesnt even manage to trade 1/1 anymore. It SHOULD be so good in Dragon Stompy.
Silver Knight is dead.
Toughness based removal spells like Lightning Bolt are close to unplayable in the format unless you also run Goyfs.

- It makes whole Archetypes unplayble.
Red based Control decks, like UR Landstill, can't be played because of one card.
Aggro decks like Boros Deck wins would be bad when they don't splash G for Goyf. The mana base allows to and so you put Goyfs into them.

Evolution happens, for example when Ponder was printed Portent became useless. But with so many cards being made useless by one card it is not evolution but a sick mutation.

@Tao, i think you have explained it best.

It's difficult for me to say whether or not I feel Goyf should be banned or not. The fact that it is everywhere is irritating to me, but not because of that fact alone. It's annoying because I don't currently own a single Goyf and it would cost me 100+ dollars if I wanted to pick up a set, something I don't have nearly enough funds to allow.

I do think it's telling that when I was working on MUC and I decided I was going to try and make it a more proactive deck, the first step in doing that was to add Tarmogoyf. I have a hard time thinking of a single deck, other than certain kinds of combo, that wouldn't benefit from Tarmogoyf in some capacity. Fish and other aggro-control builds get a huge beater, Mid-Range gets another tool, and Control gets a ridiculously undercosted finisher. I remember someone saying that Psychatog would've been more fair if it was just a 5/6 for 1UB; Well guess what, they printed that at 1G.

Tarmogoyf is not broken, per se, and it isn't really all that hard to deal with. However, it is everywhere, and it is almost required in any deck playing creatures. In fact, I would go so far as to say that if you're deck plans on winning through creatures and you're not running Tarmogoyf, you misbuilt your deck.

Looking at the above points objectively, I would say that Goyf fully deserves to be banned. The card is everywhere in almost every strategy and doesn't really give the format anything innovative or exciting to work with in order to make up for its everpresent nature.

Why ban it. I say just unban other broken cards. Gimme my minds desire : ) or mishra's workshops.

While you're whining because of your inability to solve Tarmogoyf, you should also ask for people's support in banning fetchlands and dual lands. They're in every deck, and they're like, so good.

Lands and Brainstorm/FoW are diffrent.

Duals do not have the smae dual in ever deck, they also are suped up basics, and will never be banned because they are treated as Eternal Basic Lands.

Fetches are the same was as Duals.

Brainstorm is a powerful effect, but not run in EVERY deck. It is a staple, kind of like how in Standard if you were playing aggro you played Jitte. Same thing with brainstorm. Nobody was going to ban Counterspell because every blue deck ran it.

Force of Will, is what keeps the format in check. Force SHOULD be banned, but it also MUST stay OFF the list, else combo takes the format, and makes every other deck grab their ankles.

Goyf is seeing play in every deck. If decks like Dragon Stompy were splashing U for Brainstorm, then we would be in the same senerio that we have of MUC splashing G for Goyf.

I hate to use the 'fun' argument, but seriously, goyf is ruining the fun of Legacy deckbuilding and playing. Fetches and duals don't do that, they ENABLE cool decks to be built.

I said this in another thread, but I'll post it here too: if he's getting the axe, it better be soon, because I want goyf to be in standard when I trade mine away.

Since I inadvertently started this whole thing, I want to make it clear: I wasn't proposing the banning of Tarmagoyf. Look, it packs it up to Terror. Terror. Anything the dies to Terror, that isn't itself a combo enabler (see; Hermit Druid) isn't powerful enough to be banned.

Not gonna lie, though. I wouldn't shed a tear if it was.

Edit: Oh yeah, I almost forgot:

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Originally Posted by FakeSpam

Brain on fire..

Must... lock.. thread...

Ok. Look. I'm only going to say this once. If you have any questions or rebuttals, keep them to yourself.

Oath Sucks. Ok? It's awful. Green is an awful color. Building a control deck around it doesn't make it any better. *see "Druids, Oath of" and "Psychatog" and "Junk, PT" (ok, so junk really isn't a control deck.. well, kinda) Come to think of it, building a combo deck around that color doesn't work too well either. *see "Aluren."

Know why suicide oath was winning in extended back two seasons ago? Extended does not have the following cards: Swords to plowshares, Force of Will. Believe it or not, those cards are powerful enough to be a constant presence in any metagame with the card pool they are legal in. In fact, you may play against those very cards in the next tournament you play in. Or you may even play them yourself. I need a /sarcasm tag really badly.

If you want to play the game where I name a combo, then you name one that stops it, then I name another one.. make a different thread. However, this point counterpoint thing is fucking pointless. Benzo would be moderately playable with entomb. In fact, I would probably play it. I recieve unhealthy pleasure from reanimating fatties. However, if you check my whole existance-of-cards-that-would-slightly-affect-the-extended-metagame-if-they-were-legal arguement above, you will notice that sometimes a big ass fatty isn't that hard to deal with. Also, Tormod's crypt isn't avalable to play in extended. You know, those things you have because you didn't want to lose to Dragon (yet you did anyhow, didn't you?)

Please stop drawing conjecture from extended. It's different cardpools. Ok? We're still more like type 1 than extended. Another thing: The bannings of replenish, skullclamp, etc just because they were banned in extended. Not too bringht. They missed survival of the goddamn fittest. No worries though, it's not like anyone played those cards in old 1.5 anyhow.

This brings us full circle to Oath of Druids, and the fact that green sucks. I know an aggro deck can't handle a turn 2 fatty. Know what? That aggro deck is probably playing green. They weren't going to win anyhow.

Mind twist is a very swingy card. In the absence of good acceleration, it's not that great turn 1. However, turn 4, it empties your opponent's hand. That's pretty frickin' swingy. Of course, this depends on your matchup. I know you aren't playing mind twist in suicide. Why? Because I know you aren't playing suicide. You are a better magic player than that. So I know you didn't just compare mind twist to hymn to tourach. While hymn to tourach is actually more cost effective than a mind twist, Mind Twist happens to be infinately splashable for such a devistating effect.

Metalworker is fine. Metalworker in the current card pool is at just about the right power level for the format. After all, goblin lacky is still legal. Guess what, it's also an artifact and a creature.

I refuse to comment on the very specualtion that a "broken replenish" deck exists. I believe that to be an oxymoron. If by boken you mean "slow and disruptable" then.. nevermind.

In conclusion,

- Discussing B/R changes just make you look dumb. It makes you look like you don't know what you are talking about. I might have a thousand or more mistakes in what I have written above. I most likely do not.

- I blame people who discuss B/R changes like they are smarter than R&D for the change and seperation of the lists. You may be smarter than R&D. That's ok, so is my toaster. Just don't do it. Ok? Don't.

- Green sucks.

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The fun argument is a HUGE factor for WotC.

It should not be dismissed.

If players feel the game is becoming un-fun because of one card, it gets banned. Hell when players felt the game was un-fun because of an entire BLOCK, WotC stepped in and helped out.

The fun aspect of the game is what makes players spend money. WotC wants to make money, and thus will try to make the game as fun as they can, short of giving cards away for free.

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Originally Posted by FakeSpam

Blah blah blah...

- Green sucks. (except for Goyf)

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Fixed...

The problem, of course, is that Legacy doesn't really make them much money, so the fun factor has less weight. Really, the only way goyf is getting banned is if enough people actually complain DIRECTLY to the company about it.

The argument that 'goyf is easily stopped' is valid, to a point, but no card can be isolated like that. The reason goyf is so good is because of the cards it can be surrounded with in a deck that easily turn it into a problem. Now if it only costed GG...

I don't really want to get dragged into this, because I don't believe that we can have a truly constructive discussion on the topic: it's just too much of a yes-or-no issue. Personally, I feel that Legacy is much healthier now than it was six months ago, and that only the players are to blame for the format's sickly appearance: everyone is too excited that they own a playset of Tarmogoyfs, so they feel like they need to toss the card into any deck (MUC being a prime example). While Tarmogoyf is seldom detrimental (unless you're stretching your manabase), it is not always optimal. This is a huge point, because it seems to be generally accepted that Tarmogoyf improves anything--it doesn't. While it will almost always be an asset to your army, the strain on other aspects of the deck (such as the manabase if you make green a fourth colour or something) is seldom worth the tradeoff (unless you've got a forgiving metagame) when something only slightly worse is available.


While decks like Goblins appear to be on the decline, this is not because they are completely outclassed by Tarmogoyf: it's simply because so many people are too excited by their Tarmogoyfs to pick up Goblins again. In my opinion, Tarmogoyf acts as Goblin Lackey did when Goblins was omnipresent: it is a threshold that decks must be capable of passing to be competitive. For some decks, that means running four; for others, it's as simple as not keeling over to a resolved one.


Having said more than I intended, what I originally wanted to point out is a faulty premise:

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Originally Posted by APriestOfGix

EVERY deck ether ran goyf, had an answer to goyf, or was combo.

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"Answer to 'Goyf" is a fake category that makes the argument seem more sound. Most any answer to a creature is an "answer to Goyf" (i.e. we're hardly talking about specific and narrow cards--we're talking about cards that are and were both useful and important to the Legacy metagame prior to Tarmogoyf) and so this premise should be eliminated from the list of criteria.


Since I've already trespassed into territory I promised not to touch, I may as well add a little more:

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Originally Posted by Tao

- It makes TOO MANY cards useless or inferior that would otherwise be good: Creatures like Hierarch, Baloth, Mongrel, Wall of Blossoms, Masticore, Doran the Siege Tower, Rumbling Slum, Iwamori, Call of the Herd and Werebear are outclassed.

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These are still good, and none were stellar prior to Tarmogoyf's introduction. I agree that they're inferior beatsticks, but they almost all provide a useful ability in addition to their power and toughness, and that's why the decks that played them prior to Tarmogoyf used them. Masticore hasn't seen much Legacy play in years. So too with Wall of Blossoms--this isn't anything new. Hierarch, Baloth, Slum, Iwamori, CotH, and Werebear did see some play, but it was largely limited to a few dedicated decks. By and large, those decks still play them (minus perhaps Werebear). I simply don't think that this is a valid argument, because it fails to acknowledge that the mentioned cards (and those more tacitly implied) had already been maligned prior to Tarmogoyf's inclusion, and it assumes that all that they can do is beat down.

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Flametongue Kavu has become a joke, it doesnt even manage to trade 1/1 anymore. It SHOULD be so good in Dragon Stompy.

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FtK was hardly thriving prior to Tarmogoyf.

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Silver Knight is dead.

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Protection from Red made it conditional on red's prominence. If this is taken as a valid argument against Tarmogoyf, then River Boa, Marsh Boa, Spectral Lynx, etc. should be taken as valid arguments for its inclusion.

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Toughness based removal spells like Lightning Bolt are close to unplayable in the format unless you also run Goyfs.

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If we assumed for a moment that the cards mentioned above were amazing and omnipresent in Legacy prior to Tarmogoyf, we'd run into the same problem. Besides, the whole point of burn spells isn't to whack creatures--it's to provide reach and versatility. You can use burn to remove problematic creatures early on, and late in the game it becomes a useful tool for killing your opponent; burn was never meant to kill finishers in one shot.

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It makes whole Archetypes unplayble.
Red based Control decks, like UR Landstill, can't be played because of one card.
Aggro decks like Boros Deck wins would be bad when they don't splash G for Goyf. The mana base allows to and so you put Goyfs into them.

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First, while Tarmogoyf may or may not invalidate certain decks, it has invalidated no archetypes as such.

Second, I'm not sure that I agree with these statements either. I see no immediate reasons why UR Landstill would be unplayable simply because of Tarmogoyf. When you add Tarmogoyf to a number of other factors (including the rise of Storm-based combo), I can see why it's unattractive. But the important point here is that Tarmogoyf is not solely responsible for UR Landstill's failings; just because I run Tarmogoyf and it doesn't doesn't mean I'm more likely to win.

Likewise, I'm not convinced that BDW is particularly worse without Tarmogoyf. While it can be incorporated fairly smoothly--and certainly increases speed--I hardly think it's necessary, and I think that it's one instance where I'd rather be running something else and in my colours. Obviously, I could be wrong, but the point is that Tarmogoyf is being used as a scapegoat for trends that were already in place prior to its introduction into the format.

Besides, Tarmogoyf made TarmoTog feasible, and that's an awesome deck. It also made Breakfast much more consistent. It hasn't just taken away from Legacy; it's added a great deal.

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Originally Posted by JACO

While you're whining because of your inability to solve Tarmogoyf, you should also ask for people's support in banning fetchlands and dual lands. They're in every deck, and they're like, so good.

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Originally Posted by Solpugid

I hate to use the 'fun' argument, but seriously, goyf is ruining the fun of Legacy deckbuilding and playing. Fetches and duals don't do that, they ENABLE cool decks to be built.

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Originally Posted by APriestOfGix

Duals do not have the smae dual in ever deck, they also are suped up basics, and will never be banned because they are treated as Eternal Basic Lands.

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Fun and Eternal Basic Lands can't be an argument here. The reason why Duals and Goyfs are not comparable is simple: Powerlevel gap.

There are ten Duals. they all have a high powerlevel, but if you ban them, people will play Shocklands and Fetchlands and more Basics. Ban the Fetchlands and people use Painlands. And so on. Decks will stay the same, only a bit worse.

But what is it with Goyf? What creature card would replace him in every deck? Right. Nothing remotely similar exists, no Goyf that loses 2 Life when it enters play.

It really doesn't matter what kind of deck you play to make him useful, that's how vanilla he truely is. Everyone gets cards into the yard, we all use fetches, Instants, Sorcery, and creatures. The other 4 card types are just a maybe, but the first four are pretty much guaranteed. Most other "broken" creatures serve their purpose in a particular deck or have a drawback be it Carnodamage, double cc costs, inabilty to be played on turn 1/2/3, ect. Nothing hinders the dropping of a Goyf, it's totally splashable, and unless you're running your own GY hate or have decks built around Moat, there's nothing negative about his inclusion.

I don't know if it should be banned or not, but it does need to be evaluated.

Take the Sui deck that placed at Worlds. Splashing G just for Goyf. No Berserk, no Deeds, just Goyf.

I'm waiting for the day an opponent cracks an LED and just lays Goyf on the table, takes a burn, and passes the turn. Why Empty the Warrens when you can fill up the Yard and beat face?