The best equipment for a stoneforge package

I've seen lists with many different conbinations of equipment in stoneforge mystic decks. Some are plain wrong IMO and I'd like to clear this up. I believe there should be an ideal package for each type of sfm deck. Here's my view on it:

Creature light sfm control:

These are the stoneblade UWx decks we have been seeing recently. As the deck is creature light, jitte is less useful because you have to feed an equipped creature to an opposing goyf to get counters in order to be able to buff your next dude. If you run few creatures, in many situations, sfm will be your only dude in play. IMO the best equipment for this deck is batterskull and sword of body and mind. Batterskull is obviously really good as it is a decent creature by itself. Why sobm over sofi and soff? The colours blue and green are the most relevant. The most common creatures in legacy are merfolk and goyf/necatl/kotr. Therefore, sobm is the best sword even though sofi/soff has better abilities.

Heavy ground based creature decks:

Examples of this kind of deck would be Dragon Stompy, Wg maverick or Bw deadguy. These decks have plenty of utility weenies and never run out of dudes. I believe that the best equipment for these kind of decks are Umezawa's Jitte and sword of body and mind. The pointy stick is obviously godly and since these kind of decks have no shortage of creatures, saccing a dude to get counters is no problem. Sobm is the best sword with the most relevant colours as previously mentioned. A bear a turn is nothing to laugh at either.

Why no batterskull? I strongly believe batterskull is crap in these kind of decks. In testing, a t3 batterskull is no big deal. Against aggro, sure it really hurts merfolk/zoo's clock but it simply doesn't win games in the mid range slugfest. Creature heavy decks don't need equipment to help stabilize/stall out games, they need bomby equipment that totally swings the game in their favor. Jitte and sobm do just that, batterskull is more often than not a rhox war monk. Batterskull should be equip no 3 at best. This is in case you kept a creature light hand and need the body.

Evasive equipment decks:

This would be decks like Angel stompy or faerie stompy with a bunch of flyers. When you have evasive creatures you are pretty sure to connect with the opponent, so you want equipment with the best abilities irrespective of protection colours. IMO the best equip is sword of fire and ice and umezawa's jitte. Card drawing and shock everyturn is by far the most powerful ability. Soff's untap is pretty useless as in an aggro deck like this, equips should be the last cards out of your hand, you will likely have nothing in hand to cast once you connect with soff. Sols is also not great since lifegain is not that important as jitte can also gain you life. Disentomb effects are also not great in a format of stp. Having no creatures in the yard is pretty common if your creatures are evasive and swinging.

Sword of war and peace is a very swingy card that has no place in legacy. Against control, you want card advantage/tempo which sofi/batterskull gives you. Against aggro, you want pro the right colours/break the creature deadlock which sobm/jitte provides. Against combo all equips come down way too slow to matter anyway. Basically, Sowp is only good at swinging past caws/sfm in standard. In legacy, its pretty bad.

Cheers, and let me know your opinions.

I think that SoLS is heavily underrated. 5 years ago, I'd say there was no contest and that SoFI was hands down better. Now, in the decks like BW or GW where you recommend SoBM, I think SoLS is easily superior. SoBM should basically never see play. But where a Sword is going to shine in those decks is against a deck with a control role in the matchup because every threat is a lethal one. In x/W, equipment is bad against combo and generally too slow against a Zoo like aggro or burn. Fish eventually reaches critical mass no matter what protections you have. 6 5/5's doesn't care about a protection wall. You're still taking 25. And SoBM isn't doing anything for you prior to that point that +2/+2 isn't already doing. They're not chumping with a lord unless it's lethal anyway. But what can be relevant is getting back cards that were countered or dismembered or just had to chump a 10/10 KotR or that 5/5 Reejeray.

If your opponent has five 5/5s, you are losing that game regardless of what equipment you play. Getting back a dude to block will not help you. Realistically, equip comes down turns 3/4 and you have some minor disruption for your opponents horde, such as stp/pridemage on vial. Realistically, equipment is most effective at breaking deadlocked boards. Jitte and sobm are very good at this and net you tempo. Jitte gives you point removal while sobm allows you to connect/ makes bears, which is very relevant. Sols ability is really good but you underestimate merfolk's willingness to chump.

You are not really arguing that sols is better than sobm against folk right? On a deadlocked board, I can swing with sobm, deal some damage, get a bear, then reequip sobm to the bear for blocking duty! Sols just earns a chump and an alpha strike the next turn. Also sobm puts the bear straight into play. Returning a dude to hand still requires you to cast it. In real life testing sobm is the best sword by a long mile in legacy right now. It used to be sofi, but goblins is becoming less popular and junk/gw/zoo is much more common. Sobm is really really good in those matchups.

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Originally Posted by ivanpei

I've seen lists with many different conbinations of equipment in stoneforge mystic decks. Some are plain wrong IMO and I'd like to clear this up. I believe there should be an ideal package for each type of sfm deck. Here's my view on it:

Creature light sfm control:

These are the stoneblade UWx decks we have been seeing recently. As the deck is creature light, jitte is less useful because you have to feed an equipped creature to an opposing goyf to get counters in order to be able to buff your next dude. If you run few creatures, in many situations, sfm will be your only dude in play. IMO the best equipment for this deck is batterskull and sword of body and mind. Batterskull is obviously really good as it is a decent creature by itself. Why sobm over sofi and soff? The colours blue and green are the most relevant. The most common creatures in legacy are merfolk and goyf/necatl/kotr. Therefore, sobm is the best sword even though sofi/soff has better abilities.

Heavy ground based creature decks:

Examples of this kind of deck would be Dragon Stompy, Wg maverick or Bw deadguy. These decks have plenty of utility weenies and never run out of dudes. I believe that the best equipment for these kind of decks are Umezawa's Jitte and sword of body and mind. The pointy stick is obviously godly and since these kind of decks have no shortage of creatures, saccing a dude to get counters is no problem. Sobm is the best sword with the most relevant colours as previously mentioned. A bear a turn is nothing to laugh at either.

Why no batterskull? I strongly believe batterskull is crap in these kind of decks. In testing, a t3 batterskull is no big deal. Against aggro, sure it really hurts merfolk/zoo's clock but it simply doesn't win games in the mid range slugfest. Creature heavy decks don't need equipment to help stabilize/stall out games, they need bomby equipment that totally swings the game in their favor. Jitte and sobm do just that, batterskull is more often than not a rhox war monk. Batterskull should be equip no 3 at best. This is in case you kept a creature light hand and need the body.

Evasive equipment decks:

This would be decks like Angel stompy or faerie stompy with a bunch of flyers. When you have evasive creatures you are pretty sure to connect with the opponent, so you want equipment with the best abilities irrespective of protection colours. IMO the best equip is sword of fire and ice and umezawa's jitte. Card drawing and shock everyturn is by far the most powerful ability. Soff's untap is pretty useless as in an aggro deck like this, equips should be the last cards out of your hand, you will likely have nothing in hand to cast once you connect with soff. Sols is also not great since lifegain is not that important as jitte can also gain you life. Disentomb effects are also not great in a format of stp. Having no creatures in the yard is pretty common if your creatures are evasive and swinging.

Sword of war and peace is a very swingy card that has no place in legacy. Against control, you want card advantage/tempo which sofi/batterskull gives you. Against aggro, you want pro the right colours/break the creature deadlock which sobm/jitte provides. Against combo all equips come down way too slow to matter anyway. Basically, Sowp is only good at swinging past caws/sfm in standard. In legacy, its pretty bad.

Cheers, and let me know your opinions.

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I think you are looking down on the Sowp's damage output and life swings power lvl. I have been playing with Sowp alot lately and found it looks down and wins games just 0-2 turns after its active. Its really hard to race the sword when you get 4+ lives per turn and take 2 + cards in hand extra worth of damage while being protected from your STP, PTE or bolts. Sowp closes games fast, increases your clock while decreasing theirs.

IMO Batterskull should be in all the stoneforge decks, at "worst" its an extra creature you can get into play. Considering it only takes 1 spot as the deck already runs Stoneforges to begin with.

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Originally Posted by ivanpei

If your opponent has five 5/5s, you are losing that game regardless of what equipment you play. Getting back a dude to block will not help you. Realistically, equip comes down turns 3/4 and you have some minor disruption for your opponents horde, such as stp/pridemage on vial. Realistically, equipment is most effective at breaking deadlocked boards. Jitte and sobm are very good at this and net you tempo. Jitte gives you point removal while sobm allows you to connect/ makes bears, which is very relevant. Sols ability is really good but you underestimate merfolk's willingness to chump.

You are not really arguing that sols is better than sobm against folk right? On a deadlocked board, I can swing with sobm, deal some damage, get a bear, then reequip sobm to the bear for blocking duty! Sols just earns a chump and an alpha strike the next turn. Also sobm puts the bear straight into play. Returning a dude to hand still requires you to cast it. In real life testing sobm is the best sword by a long mile in legacy right now. It used to be sofi, but goblins is becoming less popular and junk/gw/zoo is much more common. Sobm is really really good in those matchups.

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Depends on what deck you're running. Tbh, I'm not really all that excited about any Sword against Fish, as equipment is slow and if I'm dropping a Sword against them it means I naturally drew it (if I SFM'd, it would've been Jitte), i.e. 5 mana. For that same 5 mana, I can drop a Tarmogoyf and a KotR or a RWM. I'm not going to argue with you, you can think whatever you want and run whatever you want. It's no skin off my nose either way.

One thing that needs to be considered is how many Stoneforge you are running. In a UW deck with four, you want a Batterskull. In a Bant deck with a pair of Mystics, you can't consistently pay 1W+1W for a turn three Baneslayer.

I hate it when people say you have protection from swords/bolts etc when comparing to sobm. The fact is that if you are equipping your creature, it will get killed in response. If you are stone forging for war and peace you are obviously telegraphing your next play and they will keep mana open for removal. Against topdecked removal, sobm also protects your creature in a different way, it makes more bears! Bears can also pick up the sword. I know how swingy sowp is, the problem is connecting with it. How do you plan to actually connect with a sowp? The protection colours are not very useful. On an empty board with no blockers, you are already ahead and any sword will wrap up the game. Honestly I'd rather have sobm which turns a bad/neutral board position into a positive one.

The bash, make token, equip token can lock down 2 huge creatures while bashing for damage everyturn. For example, I can kill an opponent with 2 goyfs with my lonely heirarch equipped with sobm by bashing, make a token, equip token. He bashes back, I block 1 guy. Next turn I swing with my equiped bear and get another bear. I reequip my noble heirarch and voilà I have 2 blockers. Repeat. Sobm can really turn around games. With a sowp, I'll just sit and stare at a goyf wall while being beaten to death by the other goyf. A +2/+2 buff is not that big against 5/6 goyfs or 8/8 kotrs.

I agree with the OP overall. My own opinions are almost dead on.

However, I am still seeing strong results with sowp in Dragon Stompy and in my opinion this is the only deck that can justify running it. It just happens to work in dragon stompy for me and I hope some other people give it a shot in that deck. More on that in the DS thread.


I have a threat light control deck and I'm really digging on the sobm at the moment even though I feel that dredge is experiencing somewhat of a resurgence due to less grave hate despite mental misstep.

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Originally Posted by ivanpei

I hate it when people say you have protection from swords/bolts etc when comparing to sobm. The fact is that if you are equipping your creature, it will get killed in response. If you are stone forging for war and peace you are obviously telegraphing your next play and they will keep mana open for removal. Against topdecked removal, sobm also protects your creature in a different way, it makes more bears! Bears can also pick up the sword. I know how swingy sowp is, the problem is connecting with it. How do you plan to actually connect with a sowp? The protection colours are not very useful. On an empty board with no blockers, you are already ahead and any sword will wrap up the game. Honestly I'd rather have sobm which turns a bad/neutral board position into a positive one.

The bash, make token, equip token can lock down 2 huge creatures while bashing for damage everyturn. For example, I can kill an opponent with 2 goyfs with my lonely heirarch equipped with sobm by bashing, make a token, equip token. He bashes back, I block 1 guy. Next turn I swing with my equiped bear and get another bear. I reequip my noble heirarch and voilà I have 2 blockers. Repeat. Sobm can really turn around games. With a sowp, I'll just sit and stare at a goyf wall while being beaten to death by the other goyf. A +2/+2 buff is not that big against 5/6 goyfs or 8/8 kotrs.

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To connect with fliers like bitterblossom tokens and Blinkmoth Nexus. Just to clarify I didnt compare it to sobm, wich I find to be really strong atm.

TBH I like all the swords but Sols. I use in a deadguy shell with 4 sfm, 4 blossoms and a Blinkmoth, Jitte, sofi, sobm, skull main and board manriki-gusari and a sowp.

In my UWr control deck I run 1xJitte 1xSoFF 1xBaterskull (and 11 Creatures). I think this is the best possible combination for such deck.

Jitte is necessary for a bunch of match ups, and in others you simply fetch different equipment. I wouldn't run equipment package without it, since jitte is THAT good against some decks, and I have a creature with evasion too (Clique) and some removal to clear the way.

SoFF is the best sword here since it gives protection from Green (highly relevant in the format) and untaps your lands (deck eats a lot of mana!). There's nothing better than attacking, untapping into Jace and bouncing. Bouncing next turn then making them discard the card. Seriously, this sword is THAT good.

SoBM, while having good protections, has sucky abilities. Milling them is irrelevant most of the time and 2/2 Token, uhm, isn't that impressive. I prefer Lavamancer and 6x StP effects to deal with Folk, and its not like that protection really helps, as they can just load off a Lord of Atlantis and slide through with islandwalk.

SoLS isn't that good considering the amount of creatures I run, and batterskull is just better for lifegain.

For SoFI I only have 3 Cliques with evasion, meaning that I can't hit through a wall of green creatures for any value with my other creatures. And my deck has a bunch of draw anyway.

Don't run SoBM in your control decks. Its much better in a shell like BW, though I think SoLS and SoFF both would be better even there.

As others have said, the best package depends on the particular deck. Batterskull, for example, is much better in a control deck in which you have protect your Mystic with countermagic and get to five mana in case you need to hard cast it.

Umezawa's Jitte seems like the best equipment for most decks because it only costs two to hard cast. You can sometimes get it on the board and start swinging with it faster than its competitors. For this reason, I really like it as a tutorable one-of.

The five "swords" is obviously about the metagame to some extent and which colors you are most likely to face. All of these swords give +2/+2, protection from two colors, and two triggered abilities when they connect with players. To another extent, the best swords are those with triggered abilities that produce card advantage. Let's look at them.

Sword of Fire and Ice: I think that this is regarded by most as the best sword because it will always net you an extra card when it connect and sometimes a +2 card advantage if there is a 2-toughness or less targettable creature that you want to kill. This is the only sword that will often give you a +2 card advantage. Shock and drawing a card are great abilities.

Sword of Light and Shadow: This card will only give you a +1 card advantage at best if you have a creature in your graveyard. The life gain can be good, but it's a below average ability that generates no card advantage.

Sword of Body and Mind: This will always generate exactly a +1 card advantage. Creating a 2/2 body is nice for a deck that is using equipment, however the mill ability will rarely be relevant.

Sword of Feast and Famine: This will usually generate a +1 card advantage, unless the opponent has no cards in hand or has shroud. Of course, forcing an opponent to choose and discard a card is much weaker than drawing a card from SoFI. The tempo boost from the other ability can be very nice, but it doesn't produce card advantage.

Sword of War and Peace: This is the only sword that will never generate any card advantage. It's all about the life total swing. That's why I think this is the weakest sword overall.

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Originally Posted by SpikeyMikey

I think that SoLS is heavily underrated. 5 years ago, I'd say there was no contest and that SoFI was hands down better. Now, in the decks like BW or GW where you recommend SoBM, I think SoLS is easily superior. SoBM should basically never see play. But where a Sword is going to shine in those decks is against a deck with a control role in the matchup because every threat is a lethal one. In x/W, equipment is bad against combo and generally too slow against a Zoo like aggro or burn. Fish eventually reaches critical mass no matter what protections you have. 6 5/5's doesn't care about a protection wall. You're still taking 25. And SoBM isn't doing anything for you prior to that point that +2/+2 isn't already doing. They're not chumping with a lord unless it's lethal anyway. But what can be relevant is getting back cards that were countered or dismembered or just had to chump a 10/10 KotR or that 5/5 Reejeray.

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If you are playing SFM with equipment in a deck against Merfolk, and you resolve a SFM, I'm not sure how you are losing to 6 5/5's. sof&I is that good. All you need to do is resolve one card. Use your STP to pick off as many of their lords as you can, and bait them into wasting their counters on your other cards. It's really not hard to beat Merfolk with a resolved mystic.

My 2 cents:
Jitte: used to be the best, now possibly the 2nd worst. Like previously stated, this card is only relevant if it comes down early, or to help board stalls. The legacy metagame is no longer favorable to this equipment. At this point I can empathize with those of you who play goblins or merfolk, white weenie variants, and possibly zoo to run it maindeck. However, if you are playing sfm in your deck, there will always be a better target.

Batterskull: best equipment, bar none. I don't need to repeat what's been said about this card. Its printing has made sfm easily one of the best creatures in legacy.

Sobm: this is probably the second best equipment at the moment. It gives you protection from the format, and is, quite frankly, a mishras factory factory. The milling is always relevant. I can come back from a clique hitting twice with a sofi, but never from getting sobmized.

Soff: run this if you expect bug decks. That's about it. Its also very useful in control mirrors. Not for the protection, but from untapping and forcing them to discard. I don't think it is maindeckable.

Sofi: maindeckable if you can't beat merfolk yet. Although with batterskull, if you can't beat merfolk yet, quit playing magic. I run one in my uw sideboard, because I actually enjoy terrorizing merfolk players, but not because it is needed.

Sosl: meh on all levels. Unless you are running some crappy junk deck with eternal witness themed cards, don't even bother. Probably the worst sword.

Sowp: untill we see a comeback of astral slide in legacy, I can't justify running this in a md or sb. Its protection colors are largley irrelevant, but if it does connect, the damage and lifegain are quite useful. There are better equipment to run in its slot.

Conclusion: jitte only if you run 20ish dudes. Batterskull if you run sfm. Sobm if you play blue. Soff if you can't beat bug, or sb in controll mirrors. Sofi if you like fried fish. Sols if you're a donk, and sowp if you want to mess you combat math.

I don't know what you are talking about, SpikeyMikey. Mystic is probably the single best card against Merfolk since Misstep was printed. For aggro-ish builds against them, it is the top game plan.

Like someone already said, it depends on the deck and the number of Mystics. I wouldn't run Batterskull if I have less than three Mystics. I've been running BW with four Mystics for a while(not the infi utility creatures, don't like em at all), I run Jitte, Batterskull, and Body/Mind. I don't see the point of Sword of Fire and Ice. Umezawa's Jitte and Batterskull both wreck Merfolk(and Goblins) already, I'd rather have my other equipment do something against my other matchups. Pro green with a 2/2 chump/equip body helps me do that. Sword of Light and Shadow in my sb(sometimes) helps me against the newer control decks' removal.

Batterskull is just awesome against anything except storm combo, and even there it has its uses, gaining life and being a quicker clock.

To me, the baseline is Jitte and Batterskull, since they're extremely versatile. Then a Sword that is tailored to your meta. And maybe one in the sideboard. If you run two or three Mystics, then I'd just run Jitte and a Sword.

Jitte:
Removal, pump, lifegain, in that order

Batterskull:
Early powerful creature, lifegain, resilient creature, in that order.

Sword of Such and Such:
Antideck pro colors and abilities, evasion, card advantage, in that order.



I haven't tested Sword of War and Peace yet, it seems good but situational. I won't like having it deal 2 extra damage or less.

4x Stoneforge, 2x Batterskull, 0x Anything else if you're trying to play Angel control. If you're running an actual creature deck drop the Batterskulls and run Jitte which is clearly the best equipment generally. It is in fact the only equipment where you'd actually think about just running 3 of them and fuck the Mystics (particularly if you're already running three other colors).

After those two you pick Swords based on what matchups you expect/want to show up, with SoFI and SoLS offering the best utility, SoFF a distant third, and SoBM probably offering the best color protection. Also if Batterskull is wrecking Goblins in your testing your Goblins opponents are terrible.

People also topdeck/dig for removal, so I don't think removal protection is as irrelevant as people think. Especially on Swords that don't actually have much impact when they hit (looking at you, SoWP).

Basilisk Collar is interesting with Lavamancer or first strikers, also Trinket Mage obv.

One equipment I had played against me recently that wrecked my day and I think might be worth more testing is Lightning Greaves.

I'm actually a large fan of Light and Shadow over most of them in just about every deck. It doesn't have that swing like some of the others, but the sheer unkillability of the creature once it's equipped is nothing to ignore. Especially, with people starting to use GFTT more often and swords already being prevalent, it seems like a good choice to equip and keep pounding without interference once you get past the kill in response part. It always seems to make it into at least the board of any deck I have using Stoneforge. That's just me though.

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Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin

Basilisk Collar is interesting with Lavamancer or first strikers, also Trinket Mage obv.

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It's also brutal with Scalding Salamander as a repeatable, one-sided Wrath of God on a stick against anything that doesn't fly or has protection.

Grim Lavamancer is obviously a way better and more versatile stand-alone card, though.

You have a very weird approach to this issue imo.
There is, and there will never be an optimal package for a SFM deck.

Lets take GW maverick f.e. If you play say 3 mirran crusaders feast and famine becomes a little excessive, you would rather have a sword that gives you edge against decks not GB. Like fire and ice, which seems to get no love these days as all the pros only play B&M in their stoneblade decks.

You do not have an issue with stupid green ground pounders, prot green is not that valuable to maverick. You have your own meat to match theirs (unless you jam your deck full of rangers and other crap like that) and moms to get an edge. Prot blue is also not that relevant, as Jace is not as much of an issue to you (unless you are already in a losing position, then its a nail in the coffin), and merfolk is practically a bye.
You should also not forget that this is the sword that has a DRAWBACK of milling ten. I've in my limited testing already hit darkblast, life from the loam, vengevine and punishing fire. Cards i'd rather not have them have.
It's also very awkward with KOTR on the other side..
Just saying I've been thoroughly unimpressed by this one in maverick.

When choosing the sword, I tend to go with the one that helps the mu where my current build is at its weakest while considering the mu's i probably will face. Some people call this metagaming.
Just saying it's not as simple as "the best package for a deck", as your list and everyone elses lists will change from week to week.

But then again, I also think batterskull is very good in GW meatwagon.

Here's what I've been running in my GWu Maverick Deck

1 Batterskull- Anyone who thinks Batterskull doesn't beling in the deck is what I like to call "wrong" It it an auto win against anything red-based, and turns Stoneforge from a decent utility guy to a bomb

1 Umezewa's Jitte- Though not too special, it is just an auto win against Elves, Goblins, and is very, very strong against Merfolk, though I'll admit that it isn't an auto-win against them. Also very strong against any burn based decks

1 Sword of Fire and Ice/Sword of Feast and Famine- I truely can't decide what's better here. Fire and Ice isn't too hot considering that the only MUs it's really good in is Goblins and Merfolk, but Merfolk's creatures are often out of the blast range, and we already have Jitte and Batterskull for Goblins. That being said, it is very strong against Janky, random decks.

Feast and Famine on the other hand, gives much needed help against midrange and tempo, as well as better protection colors. However, unlike Fire and Ice, it is just the nut low against random janky decks.

All being said, I'm leaning more towards Feast and Famine.


I also agree that Light and Shadow is terribly underrated, and that both Body and Mind and War and Peace are pretty much unplayable

There are so many differing opinions on equipment packages, its pretty frustrating. Many have very solid arguments but there is one argument I particularly find infuriating: batterskull goes into every deck running 4 sfm.

Ok I have a foil batterskull and am itching to use it so not having an expensive standard card is not the argument. Ive tested It in uw stoneblade where it is an excellent card which gives me a big efficient body. I also have misstep to protect sfm and brainstorm to shuffle away batterskull when I don't have stoneforge. No argument here, its very strong.

I have also played it in gw mystic and wb deadguy. It is terrible in both these decks, seriously. I never have body problems in both these creature filled decks so batterskull's usefulness drops. Also, I cant prevent my opponent from frying my mystic without force/misstep. Topdecking batterskull without mystic is one of the most annoying things ever.

Worst of all, sometimes I manage to get batterskull down and IT DOESN'T WIN ME THE GAME. It's a freaking exalted rwm with vigilance. That is not enough to win games. I still die to merfolk/goblin alpha strikes after they reach critical mass. I still get raped by tarmogoyfs and kotrs while they leave one back to block batterskull.

I had batterskull in my deck for a long time (ugh... cawblade influence) Only when I started to search for sobm and jitte most of the time, did I realize what a Meh Card batterskull is in creature heavy decks. It's not terrible, it's just cuttable and cut it I did.

Goblins does not lose to Batterskull. I do not think anyone who says this has actually tested it against a competent opponent. Even in a bad situation Goblins tends to have a million bodies to spare and can easily let you gain twenty life, stabilize, gain control of the board and murder you in 1-2 turn, fuck your 40 point life total.

Piledriver does stupid, stupid things if left unchecked. Also, with most Goblins lists maining 4 Gempalms and 1-2 Tin Street Hooligans, things are looking grim for equipment based decks.

*EDIT:
I love the arguments here for Batterskull. -sarcasm-

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Originally Posted by ivanpei

It's a freaking exalted rwm with vigilance. Meh.

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I didn't quite get the rest, but you hit the nail on that one.

I actually played quite a few games with and against the SFM+Batterskull plan.

For decks with counterspell back up, mainly Standstill control and UWx tempo decks, Batterskull is your best tutor target since it acts as a Tinkerable Baneslayer Angel. :eek: Plus with Force of Will, Mental Misstep and sometimes Daze(in the UWX tempo decks) your Stoneforge is easy to protect so that you can untap with it.

As for non-blue decks like Junk or Zoo, Stoneforge Mystic is a great card and you should probably play it. But I don't think Batterskull is reliable enough against control decks since you don't have counterspells to protect your Stoneforge Mystic.
Basically they kill your Stoneforge, you are stuck with a dead Batterskull that you can't cast and then they kill you with Jace TMS.

Atm I think your Stoneforge Mystic package for non-blue decks should start with a Sword of Body and Mind+Jitte/Sword of Fire and Ice/Sword of Feast and Famine.

But really, its kinda absurd that blue decks now have a Tinkerable Baneslayer Angel. Okay maybe Tinker is 10 times better than Stoneforge, but a tutor and mana reduction in one card is pretty unreal as seen in the past.

It wholly depends on the deck and the applications. I wouldn't run Batterskull paired with SFM in Zoo for instance, but I do run it in Maverick. The issue isn't having bodies to equip, but rather that Maverick can take the control role in some matchups. There are also many situations where you need a BIG body to be a force in combat, and haven't drawn your fatties yet.

In Zoo this isn't a problem, since all the creatures are 2/3 or larger.

I play Goblins and I'm much more wary of Jitte then Batterskull I think reports of Jitte's demise are greatly exaggerated.

Im playing a BW Deadguylist with 16 creatures 4 SFM 1 Batterskull 1 Jitte and 1 changing Slot (mostly SoFaI)

But you guys seem to forget one thing - even if you play SFM, look for Batterskull, and you SFM gets Sworded - they used just a removal for a 1/2 and you can still play the Batterskull later on - Even i can do that - Deadguylist with 19 lands
So its still you play a card, + get an additional, your opponents removes yours, but youve still made a single card advantage - and it is not dead all over the time.

And ive tested all SoXaY in my DGA, and just considering the abilities - not the prot as its metabased - SoFaI got the best abilities if you ask me.

I think Grafted Wargear is under rated, in a deck like Zoo with Kird Apes and Loam Lions that get out classed by aggro-control's creatures on turns two and three, a +3/2 equipment that doesn't lose tempo vs removal and doesn't require you to sacrifice a creature and re-equip to put counters on it is pretty solid. A 5/5 is nothing to sneeze at considering it runs over Batterskull and most Tarmogoyfs.

The arguments against Batterskull are still as worthless as in the Batterskull thread. In has proven its worth in tournament and testing by multiple players enough.

Every Batterskull pack starts with 1 Jitte, 1 Batterskull and the rest is up to the Meta and the deck itself. Sometimes it is simple logic like that in a deck with 4 Mirran Crusader you don't need a Pro:Green Sword as much as in other decks and that in the Batterstill deck the BW/Sword will underperform due to lack of targets for recursion. In other cases simple testing helps a lot. Which Sword is needed and which not is a very complicated topic and discussing it will not be of any help because there are enough arguments for every Sword.
In my Maverick I play SoFaI and SoBaM in the main and a SoLaS in the side.

That is what every Batterskull pack starts with, I guess.

It's ridiculous on its face to say that Batterskull has proven anything. The card has been played a lot for a host of reasons and hasn't performed particularly well relative to its popularity. A number of SFM decks outside of straight UW control have already dropped the card.

Performance on a large scale aside, I can only attest to how Batterskull's done for me, which is fantastic. To me, it has hands down locked down being the second best equipment in Legacy, and to me is an auto-include in any 4 Stoneforge package right after Umezawa's Jitte.

My Maverick deck's package is Umezawa's Jitte, Batterskull, Batterskull. I find Sword of X and Y all not to be up to task in the deck (Feast and Famine's the only close one for me due to the ridiculous Knight of the Reliquary synergy.)

In Deadguy Ale, my package is Umezawa's Jitte, Batterskull, Sword of Fire and Ice. Two Batterskulls is too risky with blind Confidants to me. I'm not necessarily sold on the SOFI, but I feel like I want a third equipment and I like it better than the other four Swords. If it keeps being subpar, though, I may make it a second Jitte, just to win Stoneforge wars.

Performance on a large scale is not the same thing as people playing a card on a large scale and that card performing exactly in keeping with its penetration of the field despite the absence of meaningful hate.

Performance on a large scale is a deck like Merfolk, which puts up positive win percentages despite being hated on by much of the format.


It is absolutely meaningless to have a conversation where people do not grasp this distinction.

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Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin

Performance on a large scale is not the same thing as people playing a card on a large scale and that card performing exactly in keeping with its penetration of the field despite the absence of meaningful hate.

Performance on a large scale is a deck like Merfolk, which puts up positive win percentages despite being hated on by much of the format.


It is absolutely meaningless to have a conversation where people do not grasp this distinction.

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Notice the part where he said to put "performance on a large scale" aside. Meaning he does not give a shit about "performance on a large scale." He said, PERSONALLY (as in, his experience, which no one can refute or deny), Batterskull was nuts. If I was playing Maverick (never going to happen), then I probably not play Batterskull, but that is irrelevant to the point he was trying to make. He was merely giving his opinion, based on his personal experiences, regarding Batterskull.

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Originally Posted by HAVE HEART

Notice the part where he said to put "performance on a large scale" aside. Meaning he does not give a shit about "performance on a large scale." He said, PERSONALLY (as in, his experience, which no one can refute or deny), Batterskull was nuts. If I was playing Maverick (never going to happen), then I probably not play Batterskull, but that is irrelevant to the point he was trying to make. He was merely giving his opinion, based on his personal experiences, regarding Batterskull.

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But that doesn't help IBA make his point which is that IBA is right and everyone else is wrong. Therefore, it is disregarded.

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Originally Posted by CorpT

But that doesn't help IBA make his point which is that IBA is right and everyone else is wrong. Therefore, it is disregarded.

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Or I am not a gibbering retard, so I realize that when someone brings up a thing and then says to put it aside they are actually trying to use that thing as a point. So it is not putting it aside because they are the ones that brought it up.

Like if I said, "The fact that your mother is a hooker aside, your posts are terrible," your mother's career in nightwalkery is not actually an aside because it is new information I have introduced strictly to color the conversation as a personal attack.

This conversation features the favorite sin of people: Referring to stuff as absolute truth without taking into consideration that there are so many variables ranging from minor tweaks in decklists to how random and different metagames can be, that it is absolutely retarded to try to act like there was some universal optimal configuration for decks with infinite minor differences. The first huge problem is just lumping all GW decks in one group and trying to discuss that. Talk about being vague.

I can agree on Sword of Body and Mind being the most useless sword ever, but just calling for example Sword of Light and Shadow unplayable is only lack of perspective. It has relevant protections and in a metagame full of Stoneforge Mystics and equipment as well as decks based on having high concentration of artifacts, I can easily see stuff like continuous Pridemage activations it enables being gamebreaking. Or returning Faerie Macabre, or just chaining a stream of any threats to overwhelm opponents.

Of course Batterskull is really good. The thing is that it's only really good when you have a Mystic out, and I wouldn't count on my 1/2 monster surviving too long when everybody is expecting them and building decks and sideboards accordingly. When it works, it's awesome, though. Same can be said of course about every sword also, with the notable exception of Body and Mind.

I find it funny that you request that we not dismiss all swords yet you yourself dismiss sobam which many here consider the best/2nd best sword. I am not sold on batterskull outside uwx shells, period. Jitte is still equipment número uno with batterskull/sobam very close behind it. Sofi, sols, soff and basilisk collar have some uses but are pretty narrow. Sword of war and peace is the narrow-est definitely.

Most of the people who are extremely pro batterskull really underestimate the power level of legacy and what an equipment really needs to do: win the game. Jitte and sobam/sofi provide incremental advantage everytime they connect. This builds up, swinging the game in your favor. Batterskull swings for 4 and gains you some life at first, later in the game it becomes extremely useless

Think about it, is 4 mana for a 4/4 vigilance lifelinker that impressive? That's what batterskull pretty much is. If you are uw and you want batterskull to help you survive to the late game, that's a fair deal. If you are gw aggro with the gsz + 1/2 tarmogoyf build and need a body, I think batterskull is a fair choice (though I really think playing less than 4 goyf is not a good idea).

I find it funny that you request that we not dismiss all swords yet you yourself dismiss sobam which many here consider the best/2nd best sword. I am not sold on batterskull outside uwx shells, period. Jitte is still equipment número uno with batterskull/sobam very close behind it. Sofi, sols, soff and basilisk collar have some uses but are pretty narrow. Sword of war and peace is the narrow-est definitely.

Most of the people who are extremely pro batterskull really underestimate the power level of legacy and what an equipment really needs to do: win the game. Jitte and sobam/sofi provide incremental advantage everytime they connect. This builds up, swinging the game in your favor. Batterskull swings for 4 and gains you some life at first, later in the game it becomes extremely useless

Think about it, is 4 mana for a 4/4 vigilance lifelinker that impressive? That's what batterskull pretty much is. If you are uw and you want batterskull to help you survive to the late game, that's a fair deal. If you are gw aggro with the gsz + 1/2 tarmogoyf build and need a body, I think batterskull is a fair choice (though I really think playing less than 4 goyf is not a good idea).

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Originally Posted by ivanpei

I find it funny that you request that we not dismiss all swords yet you yourself dismiss sobam which many here consider the best/2nd best sword.

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I definitely have noticed some people liking it in some weird context. That's the thing: if it's good, it's good in some narrow deck having problems mostly with green and blue creatures. In no way can you say that it's the best sword, as you can't say that about any of them. Still you do and the reasoning is not valid.

If you on average already destroy blue decks and creature decks, SoBM is absolutely useless and shouldn't be played, countering your point of it being the best sword ever. It also has an ability that can actually help the opponent to win.

I only wanted to address the thought that people are trying to construct a universally perfect combination of equipment. I tend to think that due to many reasons, it is impossible and the equipment package should be considered case by case based on actual deck lists, historical and/or expected performance and metagame.