[Deck] Zoo

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Originally Posted by Loxodon Baileyarch

Domain Zoo is probably one of the most powerful versions. But the fact that a SINGLE Wasteland can fuck your day up, makes it unplayable.

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That's not true. We have a regular Legacy tournament and we have 25+ players most of the time. As many different players appear from event to event, many different decks are played. I took DomainZoo to that tourney for the fifth time in a row. I went Top 4 four times, placing 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 3rd again last week. For reverence, here's the list. A friend of mine has also been successful with it several times:

4 Dark Confidant
3 Jötun Grunt
4 Kird Ape
2 Skyshroud Elite
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Tin Street Hooligan
4 Wild Nacatl

3 Gaea's Might
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Lightning Helix
4 Tribal Flames

3 Vindicate

1 Badlands
1 Bayou
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Plateau
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Taiga
1 Tropical Island
1 Volcanic Island
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills

I never had real problems with wastelands, as 20 lands are just enough be able to have access to two mana under Wasteland without getting flooded when you don't face Wasteland. Any thoughts on that list? I'm not quite sure, but Hooligan might become Shusher or something else, he's mostly 2/1 for 2 Mana, which isn't acceptable. He destroyed me a Jitte last tourney thou.

Domain Zoo is very strong, but we are discussing RGW Zoo here.
(as Captain Hammer pointed out to me very wisely earlier in this thread when I came up with my Domain Zoo list :laugh: )

When I played Domain Zoo somehow I seemed to lack power and sometimes indeed had troubles with the mana. With just 3 colors this problem is very less existent.

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Originally Posted by Loxodon Baileyarch

Adding lands and cutting threats makes me cry a little inside... So fuck that. I mean i tested him before and he was "ok".

I might just break down and try burn or something. Idk i make so many tweaks to my deck...

But yeah good call though on the edits. Something my friend mentioned to me yesterday for the sideboard was NullRod, at least in metagame, it PWNs. Everyone wins through CounterTop and Shackles and EE. It shuts off so much stuff. It hurts Jitte and Scroll, but Jitte is just a win more card, and they would both be sided out of course.

Thoughts?

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I'm glad you feel that way. More ROAR less bore.

I too was thinking about Null Rod. Top, Shackles, and EE are huge problems that Null Rod tackles well. It also stops Chrome Mox, LED, and Lotus Petal, not to mention the fact that it makes Affinity cry. It merits testing for sure.

I've also been thinking more and more about River Boa. Although it seems weak, the fact that every single DTB right now lets Boa go for a swim seems pretty good. And it kinda regenerates when EE or Deed pops.

Back from testing Cliffrunner ... well, it's kinda plyaable but even with a W/R permanent ont he table,the effect is marginal. Trample definitevely lacks... But on the contrary to what I thought, his small body is not problematic. So back to thoctar

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Originally Posted by umbowta

I've also been thinking more and more about River Boa. Although it seems weak, the fact that every single DTB right now lets Boa go for a swim seems pretty good. And it kinda regenerates when EE or Deed pops.

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Seriously like if i ran River Boa, i would probably run some sort of pump like Rancor, even though i've advocated against it this entire thread. They just can't deal with a 4/2 riverwalking manchild(Swords is a given of course).

He just seems like he would be a silver bullet against most of the DTB decks. Running him as a two of doesn't seem that bad. And idk about most of the other Zoo players, but i tend to get about 3-4 mana each game, leaving me plenty to regenerate with.

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Originally Posted by Loxodon Baileyarch

Seriously like if i ran River Boa, i would probably run some sort of pump like Rancor, even though i've advocated against it this entire thread. They just can't deal with a 4/2 riverwalking manchild(Swords is a given of course).

He just seems like he would be a silver bullet against most of the DTB decks. Running him as a two of doesn't seem that bad. And idk about most of the other Zoo players, but i tend to get about 3-4 mana each game, leaving me plenty to regenerate with.

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That's funny because I've loved Rancor and now I'm thinking its inclusion is unnecessary. You don't need to go crazy or anything, you just need to give yourself a better chance of stealing a match on the draw. River Boa would be replacing 2 Goblin Legionaires and maybe 1 Isamaru. Just by doing that you're better against the most prevalent decks in the current meta. I know boa isn't so hot against Goblins, Survival, Dragon Stompy, or AnT. So you need to side them out...so what...you'd be taking out legionaire and Isamaru in those cases anyway.

I'm almost sure the following is a better plan in the current environment:


4x Kird Ape
4x Wild Nacatl
2x Isamaru, Hound of Konda
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Watchwolf
3x River Boa
2x Woolly Thoctar
4x Swords to PlowShares
4x Lightning Helix
4x Lighting Bolt
2x Cursed Scroll
2x Jitte


Or maybe I'll just go nutty and do this:

4x Kird Ape
4x Wild Nacatl
2x Isamaru, Hound of Konda
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Kavu Predator
4x Silhana Ledgewalker
2x Wooly Thoctar
4x Invigorate
4x Might of old Krosa
4x Berserk
3x Double Cleave

Turn 2, swing with Nacatl=> Invigorate, Might, Berserk!=> ROOOOOOOAAARR!

I had a guy online while playing MWS say that when he swords my wolf with the rancor on him that the rancor was removed from the game also because of the old wording of StP.

Any truth to this?

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Originally Posted by Frank The Tank

I had a guy online while playing MWS say that when he swords my wolf with the rancor on him that the rancor was removed from the game also because of the old wording of StP.

Any truth to this?

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Originally Posted by Rancor

When Rancor is put into a graveyard from play, return Rancor to its owner's hand.

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No truths here. It only matters if Rancor goes from graveyard to play, where the creature goes is irrelevant.

Thought so but he was trying to tell me of some old wording on swords that removed the enchantment along with the creature from the game. (shrug)

I thought this was an interesting conversation that deserves a look-see by the folks who have been developing Zoo here, specifically with regard to the underlined portion of Fossil4182's reply.

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Originally Posted by Frank The Tank

I am going to GP Chicago and from what I heard if you want a good chance of winning you either have to play blue or combo but lately I have been playing, and loving, my WGR Zoo deck and was thinking of bringing that instead.

Would I be better off playing my Stiflenaught, or some other thresh, landstill, etc variant or do you think a pure aggro deck like WGR Zoo would have a chance.

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Originally Posted by rockout

Play what you're most comfortable with. That helps your odds.

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Originally Posted by Fossil4182

^^I agree^^

I think some of the slower control decks like Landstill/ITF have the best odds going into the GP, or maybe some form of ANT will have a good showing, or even Natural Order :-), but I would still play UGw thresh if I were going because I've played it the most.

If you read any articles that would prep you for large events, they will say that even if certain decks are going to have better match ups, you need to play with what you're the most comfortable with.

Additionally, its a lot easier and a much better idea to make adjustments to your deck so that it will have a better meta game match ups rather than try and pick up a new deck with this much time left.

As to a WGR Aggro deck, if you want to play it post it in the new and developmental decks forum and explain that you'd like to take it to Chicago and ask for any changes that would improve some of your match ups. I would also look at the Decks to Beat Forum and figure out what you're strategy would be. Specifically, I would have thought about strategies for Merfolk, Threshold, Landstill variants, Dreadstill, Affinity, other aggro decks (Specifically Elves Combo, Ichorid and Goblins) and Combo.

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This is the exact reason as to why I'd be looking to River Boa right now. Against Merfolk, Threshold, Landstill variants, are Dreadstill, which are all DTBs and will probably account for a sum total of 40-50% of any given competitive meta at the moment, the strategy is to squeeze in as much early damage as possible with agressively costed critters and then find a way to get the last points through. River Boa, Lightning and Cursed Scroll are real nice ways to get there.

Affinity, Ichorid, and Goblins are all pretty good matches for Zoo, at least I'm happy to see them on the other side of the table anyway. The strategy is clearly use lightning and StP to remove their more problematic crittters, make them chump with the remainder, race, and win the race. You might have to bolt one of your own guys to remove Bridges against Ichorid while also keeping them off 3 guys for Dread Return. You really haven't given up much to these decks in terms of percentages, especially when River Boa comes out for Ancient Grudge, yard hate/Pyroclasm, and Pyroclasm respectively.

Combo, specifically AnT, TES, Belcher are known to be very bad for Aggro. They just tend not to care what you do, whether it's Legionaire or Boa coming down, they ignore you. Thankfully, the numbers of Combo decks are down due to the overwhelming presence of Control and Aggro Control. I'd expect to see combo maybe 1 in 10 matches in the current envioronment. In any case, Zoo needs a rediculous amount of sideboarding to even have a chance against combo. The strategy here, unfortunately, has to be one of stubborness. The Zoo pilot must keep his wits about him and look for every opportunity to capitalize. Maximize damgage per mana, play mind games if you can, and for goodness sake, use the Force, Luke, use the Force. When you side board, stick all 15 cards in your deck and then pull out the chaff so they can't guess whether you have Chant, Teeg, Needle, Volcanics and Stifle, Null Rod, etc, etc, or whether you're just planning to use the Force. Don't just give them the bye they think you are. Make them work for it and hope for their epic fail.

Don't be a Lemming, Frank. Get a gun, shoot the damn things, throw them off the cliff, and spit on their floating carcasses.

With all the blue running around in legacy would Choke be a good inclusion in the sideboard?

I think so. I LOVE Choke in any deck that can run it. It hits a big chunk of the format. Although sometimes I wonder if Tsunami is better.

Did people ever discuss putting in O Rings for Chalaces etc?

Tsunami sucks against blue. Choke is just better. Sure they can EE it away and "kinda" play around it, but it's just better. It hits them out of nowhere. It makes them slow play. While as Tsunami is just like, "Ok i'll rebuild bc i'm running cantrip.deck and i'm running top as well."

Oblivion Ring is a cure all. But the three mana is never seen in some games with Zoo. I've had at least half my games with the deck stuck on two mana just drawing gas winning.

So in my opinion, it's ok.

What about these:
Sirocco
Sun Droplet (works better in pox probably)
Active Volcano
?
I'll explain them in more depth here:
Sirocco is common in burn sideboards vs. blue, but I like volcano better because it counteracts most blue decks best spells AND returns their lands to boot! Sun Droplet is a gem I found while playing pox. It helps vs. decks who do less than 2 damage a turn as a way of winning, have a slow clock in general, or have threats that take a couple turns to kill yet can be disrupted. It might not be good in aggro because that is a completely different strategy, but imho it warrants a try in anything and everything.

Why would you ever use Active volcano or anything else for that matter over red elemental blast and pyroblast? (boggle)

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Originally Posted by Frank The Tank

Did people ever discuss putting in O Rings for Chalaces etc?

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No - Grip is superior.

you know, this deck has been testing extremely well on MWS. It does so poorly in my local meta though. One issue I have been encountering is that I often get them within burn range before my creatures start to get shut out by control or larger threats.

The life gain from Swords has been giving me issues. Many times, I would be able to burn an opponent down if not for the 4 life they gained off swords (on goyf normally). I'm not a fan of path to exile, especially in the first 3 turns of the game, but I may do some testing with it.

I just wish there was a solution to goyf that didn't give my opponent life.... But also didn't give them such tempo gain like path. IMO: the life gain is not as serious as the card disadvantage of path, but I want a better answer than swords! That is probably asking way too much. But I am liking only using 3 swords. A chain can kill an early goyf. And swords is dead in the creature-less matches.

I have also moved to a build with river boa and again back to 4x kird ape. I'm also still in the FoD fan club. They are soo good. They add a lot of consistency. If your hand is mana flooded, then you normally lose, but FoD makes it work. If you are tight for mana, they are still a threat, and most opponents try to quickly remove them.

I took out rancor for jitte because of the addition of Boa. Ape is good, but not great vs thresh. The addition of Boa gives a better solution to thresh, and allows more flexibility in creature choices. This is why I went back to 4x Ape. Rancor was mostly in the deck to make my threats overwhelm my opponents mongoose and goyf, etc. But if I'm swinging in with an unblockable, I'd rather it have a jitte on it, since that will overwhelm their creatures even more so. Plus it is a good answer to the random Burn.deck, which can win BTW (flamebreak!). With helix and jitte in the deck, Burn becomes a very comfortable match.

I do not agree with the exclusion of Chain Lightning. I think this deck needs to have a decent amount of burn. And the sorcery pumps goyf. It is often a 4dmg spell due to the additional goyf power.


4x Nac
4x Kid Ape
4x FoD
4x Tarmo
4x boa
2x Watchwolf
2x Thoctar

4x Bolt
4x Chain
4x Helix
3x Swords
2x Jitte

19 Land

I took out rancor for jitte because of the addition of Boa. Rancor was mostly in the deck to make my threats overwhelm my opponents mongoose and goyf, etc. But if I'm swinging in with an unblockable, I'd rather it have a jitte on it, since that will overwhelm their creatures even more so. Plus it is a good answer to the random Burn.deck, which can win BTW (flamebreak!). With helix and jitte in the deck, Burn becomes a very comfortable match.

Two other comments about boa. The regeneration is very significant; Jitte + boa is just scary. I also like that it makes for easy sideboard choices; I often pull boa in the non-blue matches.

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Originally Posted by Viscosity

One issue I have been encountering is that I often get them within burn range before my creatures start to get shut out by control or larger threats.

The life gain from Swords has been giving me issues. Many times, I would be able to burn an opponent down if not for the 4 life they gained off swords (on goyf normally). I'm not a fan of path to exile, especially in the first 3 turns of the game, but I may do some testing with it.

I just wish there was a solution to goyf that didn't give my opponent life....

4x Nac
4x Kid Ape
4x FoD
4x Tarmo
4x boa
2x Watchwolf
2x Thoctar

4x Bolt
4x Chain
4x Helix
3x Reprisal
2x Jitte

19 Land

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Try it that way then. Reprisal is AMAZING in the current environment most of the time, though it is an additional liability against Goblins, Ichorid...anything not running goyf. 19 land is a liability too.

@umbowta: I never really knew that card existed. It's actually really good. All anyone ever runs is Naught, Goyf, and Stalker, so i believe it's a good call.

But yeah Boa is the new tech, the blue playing kids in Chicago won't see it coming :cool: